Iraq war III...???

First topic message reminder :




Iraq is breaking up. The Kurds have taken the northern oil city of Kirkuk that they have long claimed as their capital. Sunni fundamentalist fighters vow to capture Baghdad and the Shia holy cities further south.
Government rule over the Sunni Arab heartlands of north and central Iraq is evaporating as its 900,000-strong army disintegrates. Government aircraft have fired missiles at insurgent targets in Mosul, captured by Isis on Monday, but the Iraqi army has otherwise shown no sign of launching a counter-attack.
The nine-year Shia dominance over Iraq, established after the US, Britain and other allies overthrew Saddam Hussein, may be coming to an end. The Shia may continue to hold the capital and the Shia-majority provinces further south, but they will have great difficulty in re-establishing their authority over Sunni provinces from which their army has fled.


http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/iraq-crisis-islamist-militants-warn-battle-will-rage-after-seizing-mosul-and-tikrit-9530899.html



There have been reports that the army have just stripped off uniform dropped weapons and just run away!!!



In Mosul there were supposed to be about 14,000 soldiers and they have run from a couple of thousand militants.




Another thing that gets me, is that when these rebels were in Syria we kept hearing how we should be supporting them, but now they are in Iraq we should be helping fight against them.....!?

smelly_bandit wrote:

Didge wrote:


I do not defend the Quran I always correct your mistakes on the verses, so hence why your illogical X, Y, Z theory is utter gobbledygook.

So no back tracking and you are just making poor claims because you always get shown up, and easily done so each time. I have argued countless times that all 3 Abrahamic religious works are violent with the Bible being 10 times worse, you though make excuses for the bible, so yet more proof you just make things up as you go along

You are never happy until you will see an all out war on all Muslims

im already seeing an all out war didge

Muslims are smashing the shit out of each other and let me tell you fella, it sure makes all warm and fuzzy knowing Muslim blood is running red in the streets of Iraq, shit i aint been in this good a mood since i was last in Afghanistan  

anyway, didge i see you're running scared so ill have to either dig up some of your old quotes or force you to contradict yourself

how would you like to be made a fool of??

Well that is why you re an unhinged loon if you think there is already an all out war on all Muslims, so thanks for proving my point and I know you jack yourself off 20 times a day knowing that some Muslim extremists are killing Muslims daily, you must have made the shares in kleenex go up by 100 points already alone..

lol, I never run from a boy who has the mental age of a 5 year old, in fact it is funny to see you struggle every time when your own logic is turned on its head when used on all religion, it is why you never have an answer.

You can try all you like, the best for me, is you thinking verse 9:29 is a verse that allows Muslims to kill all Non-Muslims, when it is a verses that states to fight, not kill those who do not pay their taxes and of those who have to pay is only men, not women and children. This shows you makes things up to suit your agenda and yet even though history proves I am right you still clutch at straws showing how poorly you have not read the Quran, let alone you take the views others have claimed, plagiarize as to claim you have created them yourself. It is why you lose so many debates on religion, mainly because you never have studied. religion. The funniest part even more so is many Muslims ( Zach, Sexy and Prinze) themselves disagree with you and even debated you for you to tell them they are wrong on their own views on their religion, when you do exactly the same with your own views on your own religion. It shows how hypocritical you are and even fall foul to your own claims onto them. 

So here is me an atheist who knows far more than you will ever hope to learn, yours is one that is an agenda of hate, I show all 3 Abraha ic works have violence, and yet you try to excuse the Herem from the Bible, carried out by important Prophets like Moses and Joshua, showing how illogical your own view points are, being as you are a Christian. The worst excuse you once gave on this was that there is New Testament only Bibles, even though Jesus, being a Jew, followed the Torah. odd that, showing you interpret as well.

More waffle.....

Tommy Monk wrote:More waffle.....

Yes we know that is all you ever do, though am sure smelly appreciates your hero worship ha ha, even though you think he was a Muslim

You know a lot of bullshit so you must be an arse hole!!!

clam down didge, they are only Muslims barely human at all

its no great shame

anyway

jizya is not a government tax, its an extortion tax taken by Muslims from non Muslims in return for not killing them

the numerous stories i have provided you with do not detail Iraqi or Iranian government tax collectors closing in on tax evaders, but rather normal Muhammadans who threaten christian communities with murder if the jizya is not paid

secondly there is not a single verse anywhere in the qur'an that states the jizya is only leveled at men.

i have challenged you on this issue before, and asked for the scripture you are talking about and you have run away every time

but i always have hope for you didge

what sura specifically states that women and children are to be excluded from jizya??

secondly Muslims in Iraq are currently "fighting" and as a result people are being killed, so when it says fight it means kill

therefore what we have is a unilateral declaration of religious war that orders ALL Muslims to kill any human being who does not believe as they do, until one of three criteria are met

the non Muslims convert to Islam

the non Muslims become conquered people and live as second class citizens under subjugation

or the non Muslims are wiped out during the invasion

this notion is backed up by the qur'an and the hadiths and by modern day events happening anywhere Muhammadan groups operate

QUR'AN

Quran (9:29) - "Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."

HADITH



Abu Dawud (14:2527) - The Prophet said: Striving in the path of Allah (jihad) is incumbent on you along with every ruler, whether he is pious or impious

Muslim (1:33) - the Messenger of Allah said: I have been commanded to fight against people till they testify that there is no god but Allah, that Muhammad is the messenger of Allah



Bukhari (8:387) - Allah's Apostle said, "I have been ordered to fight the people till they say: 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah'. And if they say so, pray like our prayers, face our Qibla and slaughter as we slaughter, then their blood and property will be sacred to us and we will not interfere with them except legally."


Muslim (19:4294)
When you meet your enemies who are polytheists, invite them to three courses of action. If they respond to any one of these, you also accept it and withold yourself from doing them any harm. Invite them to (accept) Islam; if they respond to you, accept it from them and desist from fighting against them. Then invite them to migrate from their lands to the land of Muhairs and inform them that, if they do so, they shall have all the privileges and obligations of the Muhajirs. If they refuse to migrate, tell them that they will have the status of Bedouin Muilims and will be subjected to the Commands of Allah like other Muslims, but they will not get any share from the spoils of war or Fai' except when they actually fight with the Muslims (against the disbelievers). If they refuse to accept Islam, demand from them the Jizya. If they agree to pay, accept it from them and hold off your hands. If they refuse to pay the tax, seek Allah's help and fight them.

and on and on and on and on

smelly_bandit wrote:clam down didge, they are only Muslims barely human at all
its no great shame
anyway
jizya is not a government tax, its an extortion tax taken by Muslims from non Muslims in return for not killing them  
the numerous stories i have provided you with do not detail Iraqi or Iranian government tax collectors closing in on tax evaders, but rather normal Muhammadans who threaten christian communities with murder if the jizya is not paid
secondly there is not a single verse anywhere in the qur'an that states the jizya is only leveled at men.
i have challenged you on this issue before, and asked for the scripture you are talking about and you have run away every time
but i always have hope for you didge
what sura specifically states that women and children are to be excluded from jizya??
secondly Muslims in Iraq are currently "fighting" and as a result people are being killed, so when it says fight it means kill
therefore what we have is a unilateral declaration of religious war that orders ALL Muslims to kill any human being who does not believe as they do, until one of three criteria are met
the non Muslims convert to Islam
the non Muslims become conquered people and live as second class citizens under subjugation
or the non Muslims are wiped out during the invasion
this notion is backed up by the qur'an and the hadiths and by modern day events happening anywhere Muhammadan groups operate

QUR'AN

Quran (9:29) - "Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."

HADITH



Abu Dawud (14:2527) - The Prophet said: Striving in the path of Allah (jihad) is incumbent on you along with every ruler, whether he is pious or impious

Muslim (1:33) - the Messenger of Allah said: I have been commanded to fight against people till they testify that there is no god but Allah, that Muhammad is the messenger of Allah



Bukhari (8:387) - Allah's Apostle said, "I have been ordered to fight the people till they say: 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah'.  And if they say so, pray like our prayers, face our Qibla and slaughter as we slaughter, then their blood and property will be sacred to us and we will not interfere with them except legally."


Muslim (19:4294)
 When you meet your enemies who are polytheists, invite them to three courses of action. If they respond to any one of these, you also accept it and withold yourself from doing them any harm. Invite them to (accept) Islam; if they respond to you, accept it from them and desist from fighting against them. Then invite them to migrate from their lands to the land of Muhairs and inform them that, if they do so, they shall have all the privileges and obligations of the Muhajirs. If they refuse to migrate, tell them that they will have the status of Bedouin Muilims and will be subjected to the Commands of Allah like other Muslims, but they will not get any share from the spoils of war or Fai' except when they actually fight with the Muslims (against the disbelievers). If they refuse to accept Islam, demand from them the Jizya. If they agree to pay, accept it from them and hold off your hands. If they refuse to pay the tax, seek Allah's help and fight them.

and on and on and on and on

Hilarious and not backed up by any historicity, I have no need to say anymore, it does not need to be in the Quran as you keep laying claim to me and all historicity shows that indeed Muslims levied this tax only on to able bodied men, not women and children, so I have history on my side, thus your claim is false before it even starts. The fact that you ignore when the Muslims first took Jerusalem, they did not kill anyone shows you have no knowledge of history yet again. When the Muslims retreated they paid back this tax also because they could not defend them anymore, which was even less to pay than for Muslims.


Try again

As usual when Didge is faced with the facts he tries to dodge it with a wall of waffle.

"This is the protection which the servant of God, 'Umar, the Ruler of the Believers has granted to the people of Eiliya [Jerusalem]. The protection is for their lives and properties, their churches and crosses, their sick and healthy and for all their coreligionists. Their churches shall not be used for habitation, nor shall they be demolished, nor shall any injury be done to them or to their compounds, or to their crosses, nor shall their properties be injured in any way. There shall be no compulsion for these people in the matter of religion, nor shall any of them suffer any injury on account of religion... Whatever is written herein is under the covenant of God and the responsibility of His Messenger, of the Caliphs and of the believers, and shall hold good as long as they pay Jizya [the tax for their defense] imposed on them."

Those non-Muslims who took part in defense together with the Muslims were exempted from paying Jizya, and when the Muslims had to retreat from a city whose non-Muslim citizens had paid this tax for their defense, the tax was returned to the non-Muslims. The old, the poor and the disabled of Muslims and non-Muslims alike were provided for from the public treasury and from the Zakat funds..

Umar(R) wrote to his army generals: “Never levy the tax (Jizya) on women or little children and never levy the tax except on men who shave their beards" - which means adults who started to have beards and shave them.


History proves smelly wrong again:

what history didge??

the history in your head

where is it??

all i keep hearing is you waffling, no links no evidence no nothing, just your "word of honour"

as i said

i asked you repeatedly to show the jizya is only for men and once again you have failed to show anything apart form how stupid and desperate you are

smelly_bandit wrote:what history didge??

the history in your head

where is it??

all i keep hearing is you waffling, no links no evidence no nothing, just your "word of honour"

as i said

i asked you repeatedly to show the jizya is only for men and once again you have failed to show anything apart form how stupid and desperate you are

This is the protection which the servant of God, 'Umar, the Ruler of the Believers has granted to the people of Eiliya [Jerusalem]. The protection is for their lives and properties, their churches and crosses, their sick and healthy and for all their coreligionists. Their churches shall not be used for habitation, nor shall they be demolished, nor shall any injury be done to them or to their compounds, or to their crosses, nor shall their properties be injured in any way. There shall be no compulsion for these people in the matter of religion, nor shall any of them suffer any injury on account of religion... Whatever is written herein is under the covenant of God and the responsibility of His Messenger, of the Caliphs and of the believers, and shall hold good as long as they pay Jizya [the tax for their defense] imposed on them."

Those non-Muslims who took part in defense together with the Muslims were exempted from paying Jizya, and when the Muslims had to retreat from a city whose non-Muslim citizens had paid this tax for their defense, the tax was returned to the non-Muslims. The old, the poor and the disabled of Muslims and non-Muslims alike were provided for from the public treasury and from the Zakat funds..

Umar(R) wrote to his army generals: “Never levy the tax (Jizya) on women or little children and never levy the tax except on men who shave their beards" - which means adults who started to have beards and shave them.


History proves smelly wrong again:

Egypt’s Muslim Brotherhood to Coptic Christians: Convert to Islam, or pay ‘jizya’ tax

The Muslim Brotherhood and its supporters have began forcing the roughly 15,000 Christian Copts of Dalga village in Egypt to pay a jizya tax as indicated in Koran 9:29, author and translator Raymond Ibrahim reported on Sunday.

Jizya is the money, or tribute, “that conquered non-Muslims historically had to pay to their Islamic overlords ‘with willing submission and while feeling themselves subdued’ to safeguard their existence,” Mr. Ibrahim explained.

According to Fr. Yunis Shawqi, who spoke yesterday to Dostor reporters in Dalga, all Copts in the village,“without exception" are being forced to pay the tax.

“[The] value of the tribute and method of payment differ from one place to another in the village, so that, some are being expected to pay 200 Egyptian pounds per day, others 500 Egyptian pounds per day,” Mr. Shawqi said, according to the translator.

In some cases, families not able to pay have been attacked. As many as 40 Christian families have now fled Dalga, Mr. Ibrahim reported.

The taxes are not unique to Egypt either.

Just over the weekend Syrian rebels went into a Christian man’s “shop and gave him three options: become Muslim; pay $70,000 as a tax levied on non-Muslims, known as jizya; or be killed along with his family,” Christian Science Monitor reported.

Read more: http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/sep/10/egypts-Muslim-brotherhood-convert-islam-or-pay-jiz/#ixzz355yPEeb8
Follow us: @washtimes on Twitter

Now that the attacks on Egypt’s Christian churches have subsided, stage two of the jihad — profiting from the fear and terror caused by stage one — is setting in: reports are arriving that the Muslim Brotherhood and its supporters are forcing the roughly 15,000 Christian Copts of Dalga village in south Minya province to pay jizya — the money, or tribute, that conquered non-Muslims historically had to pay to their Islamic overlords “with willing submission and while feeling themselves subdued” to safeguard their existence, as indicated in Koran 9:29.

According to Fr. Yunis Shawqi, who spoke yesterday to Dostor reporters in Dalga, all Copts in the village, “without exception,” are being forced to pay tribute, just as their forefathers did nearly 1400 years ago when the sword of Islam originally invaded Christian Egypt. He said that the “value of the tribute and method of payment differ from one place to another in the village, so that, some are being expected to pay 200 Egyptian pounds per day, others 500 Egyptian pounds per day…”

In some cases, those not able to pay have been attacked, their wives and children beaten and/or kidnapped. As a result, some 40 Christian families have now fled Dalga, joining the ever growing list of displaced Christians in the Middle East.

It’s the same in Syria and Iraq. ”Rebels” recently went to a Christian man’s “shop and gave him three options: become Muslim; pay $70,000 as a tax levied on non-Muslims, known as jizya; or be killed along with his family…. Androus from Mosul, Iraq… says he received a similar demand via telephone. ‘Because you are infidels, you have to pay jizya,’ he recalled being told over the phone. ‘Either you pay jizya, or we will kill you or your son.’”

Collecting jizya from non-Muslims was interrupted in the 19th century, thanks to European intervention. Today, the jizya and other injustices against Mideast Christians — in Libya, Egypt, Syria, and Iraq — have returned precisely thanks to Western intervention, in this case, U.S. support for the Muslim Brotherhood and its jihadi offshoots.

http://www.raymondibrahim.com/Muslim-persecution-of-christians/brotherhood-imposes-jizya-tribute-on-egypts-christians/

Thousands of Christians have fled Iraq's second-largest city as an Islamist terror group solidifies its control over Christianity's main remaining stronghold in the struggling nation.

The Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant (ISIS), an Iraq and Syria-based Sunni offshoot of al-Qaeda, took over Mosul (pop. 1.8 million) earlier this month, the BBC reports.

Most of Mosul's remaining Christian population of 3,000 fled for safer areas, according to World Watch Monitor.

All of Iraq is under a state of alert, according to the Iraqi government. Mosul itself is in a state of "anarchy," with armed patrols on the streets and families holed up in homes. During the takeover, everything collapsed suddenly and "people entered without any problems or opposition," Msgr. Shimoun Emil Nona, Chaldean archbishop of Mosul, told AsiaNews.

"Things are so bad now in Iraq, the worst they have ever been," writes Canon Andrew White, vicar of St. George's Anglican Church in Baghdad. "The Islamic terrorists have taken control of the whole of Mosul which is Nineveh the main Christian stronghold. The army [has] even fled. We urgently need help and support. … We are in a desperate crisis."

ISIS, which wants to overthrow the Iraqi and Syrian Governments and establish a Sunni caliphate in the Middle East, took military advantage of a political power vacuum as Iraqi Prime Minister Nouri Maliki struggles to form a government after recent elections.

The region ISIS invaded has been a stronghold for Iraqi Christians, Middle East Concern reports:

Mosul and the surrounding Nineveh plain is the traditional heartland of Iraq's Christian communities. Many Christians fled to this region when forced to leave Baghdad and other areas in recent years. Christians are alarmed at the ISIS take-over of Mosul, fearful that this will further accelerate the decline of the Christian presence in Iraq.

Iraq's Christian population has shrunk in recent years from 1.2 million in the early 1990s to an estimated 300,000 before the most recent attacks. Christian refugees are fleeing to surrounding areas and as far away as Europe, where CT previously reported on resettlement efforts. Displaced Christians within Iraq face high unemployment, poor housing, and difficulty finding education and medical care, according to Open Doors International's 2014 World Watch List.

Christians are fleeing severe violence targeting them, including church attacks, killings, robberies, and rapes, and the Christian population in Mosul shrunk from 35,000 to 3,000 in the past decade. In the last week, the remaining Christians fled, according to World Watch Monitor, which analyzes the reasons behind the exodus.

In late February, ISIS invaded Raqqa in northern Syria and demanded that Christians pay a "jizya" tax and accept a list of regulations, including not ringing church bells or praying in public in exchange for "protection," the BBC reported. That memory makes Christians even more wary now, Middle East Concern reports:

Christians feel particularly vulnerable, especially in light of the treatment of Christians in the Raqqah province of northern Syria where ISIS has also established its authority. Recall that, in February 2014, ISIS commanders in Raqqah forced Christian community leaders to sign a contract agreeing to a set of stringent conditions. These included the payment of a special tax (known as jizya), conduct of Christian rites only behind closed doors so as to be neither visible nor audible to Muslims, and adherence to Islamic commercial, dress code and dietary regulations.

CT reported how an impressive array of 175 American religious leaders recently urged the United States to support Christianity's historical heartland. Noted U.S. Rep. Frank Wolf (R-VA):

"These defenseless religious communities are facing an existential crisis, which threatens their very survival in the lands they have inhabited for centuries," said Wolf, a longtime religious freedom advocate who helped create the U.S. Commission on International Religious Freedom (USCIRF) in 1998. "The faith leaders … recognize that unless the American church begins to champion this cause, the foreign policy establishment will hardly lead the way. They are committing to be their 'brother's keeper,' whether in Nineveh, Cairo or Homs."

http://www.christianitytoday.com/gleanings/2014/june/thousands-flee-as-terrorists-take-over-iraq-christian-mosul.html

Muslim persecution of Christians is widespread. Particularly despised are former Muslims who converted to Christianity, for they stand in violation of traditional Islamic Law's injunction against apostasy. According to all contemporary schools of Islamic jurisprudence, that is a crime punishable by death, in accordance with the Prophet Muhammad's command: “Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him.”

Islamic Law mandates that Christians be subjected to a second-class status requiring them to pay a special tax (jizya) from which Muslims are exempt. Christians are not permitted to hold any kind of authority over Muslims; are forbidden to build new churches or to repair old ones; and must submit to various other humiliating and discriminatory regulations.

Because many Muslims listen to directives from radical imams preaching hatred of “infidels,” a wave of terror has engulfed Christians in Muslim nations throughout the Middle East and North Africa. For example, in October 2006 a Muslim group from Syria kidnapped an Orthodox priest, Fr. Boulos Iskander, while he was shopping in the Iraqi city of Mosul. His captors demanded not only that a large ransom be paid, but also that Fr. Boulos’ parish publicly denounce some remarks critical of Islam that the Pope had made the previous month in an address in Germany -- and to which Muslims in numerous nations had responded by rioting. The ransom was paid and the church dutifully posted 30 large signs all over Mosul denouncing the Pope's comments. In response, his captors not only murdered Boulos but dismembered his body.

This killing took place against a backdrop of increasing persecution of Christians in Iraq. Women there have been threatened with kidnapping or death if they fail to wear a headscarf. In accord with traditional Islamic legal restrictions on Christians openly displaying wine or pork, liquor-store owners in Iraq have likewise been threatened, and many of their businesses have been destroyed. In March 2007 Islamic gangs knocked on doors in Christian neighborhoods in Baghdad, demanding payment of the jizya. At least half of the 700,000 Christians who lived in Iraq prior to 2003 have fled the country since the fall of Saddam Hussein.

In Egypt, Coptic Christians have suffered discrimination and harassment for centuries, and their plight is worsening. Mob attacks on churches and individual Christians are becoming ever-more frequent. In February 1996, a swarm of approximately 10,000 Muslim youths pillaged and burned three Christian villages 60 miles northeast of Cairo. Many Christians living in Upper Egypt have been forced to pay "protection money" to Muslim racketeers.

In Pakistan, Christians are commonly denied equality of rights with Muslims and are subjected to various types of discrimination. Jihadist aggression, in the form of mob violence and threats, is widespread. In one attack in October 2001, 18 Pakistani Christians were murdered during a worship service.

In Saudi Arabia, absolutely no public expression of Christianity is permitted. It is illegal even to wear a cross necklace, to read a Bible, or to whisper Christian prayers in the privacy of one's own home. There is a nationwide ban on all Christian churches, artifacts, and literature. A special religious police force, known as the muttawa, conducts forcible (and unannounced) inspections of people's homes, searching for evidence of non-Islamic behavior or possessions.

In Indonesia the extremist group Laskar Jihad has killed as many as 10,000 Christians. In addition, it has forcibly converted thousands more to Islam, and has destroyed hundreds of Christian churches.

In Sudan, the Khartoum regime for years waged a bloody jihad against the Christians in the southern part of the country, killing two million of them and displacing five million more. According to Nina Shea, an expert on the persecution of Christians in the Muslim world:

"The Sudanese government and its agents have bombed, burned, and looted southern villages; enslaved women and children; forcibly converted Christians and other boys and sent them into battle; relocated entire villages into concentration camps called 'peace villages'; and withheld food aid to starving Christian and animist communities until they converted to Islam."

In Spring 2003, Sudanese jihadists burned to death a Christian pastor and his family while carrying out an unprovoked massacre of 59 villagers.

In Nigeria, Muslim mobs have torched churches and have enforced Sharia codes on Christians, horse-whipping female Christian college students whom they deemed to be dressed improperly.

Even in Lebanon, traditionally the Middle East’s sole Christian land, Christians suffer persecution – marked most notably by the ongoing series of assassinations of Christian political leaders. Lebanese Christian communities that date back to the dawn of Christianity have been steadily decreasing in numbers; now the faith is on the verge of disappearing from the area altogether.

All around the Muslim world, an assertive, combative, and expansionist Islam is newly energized. This resurgence stems in large measure from the billions of Saudi oil dollars that have been made available for the spread of the global jihad. Another major factor is the communications revolution, which has allowed for the quick and easy dissemination of jihadist ideology into areas of the Islamic world where it had lain dormant for centuries. Christians have been the principal victims

http://www.discoverthenetworks.org/viewSubCategory.asp?id=742

Hilarious, so we are now to modern day by some extremists.


Again what does history show us:


This is the protection which the servant of God, 'Umar, the Ruler of the Believers has granted to the people of Eiliya [Jerusalem]. The protection is for their lives and properties, their churches and crosses, their sick and healthy and for all their coreligionists. Their churches shall not be used for habitation, nor shall they be demolished, nor shall any injury be done to them or to their compounds, or to their crosses, nor shall their properties be injured in any way. There shall be no compulsion for these people in the matter of religion, nor shall any of them suffer any injury on account of religion... Whatever is written herein is under the covenant of God and the responsibility of His Messenger, of the Caliphs and of the believers, and shall hold good as long as they pay Jizya [the tax for their defense] imposed on them."

Those non-Muslims who took part in defense together with the Muslims were exempted from paying Jizya, and when the Muslims had to retreat from a city whose non-Muslim citizens had paid this tax for their defense, the tax was returned to the non-Muslims. The old, the poor and the disabled of Muslims and non-Muslims alike were provided for from the public treasury and from the Zakat funds..

Umar(R) wrote to his army generals: “Never levy the tax (Jizya) on women or little children and never levy the tax except on men who shave their beards" - which means adults who started to have beards and shave them.


History proves smelly wrong again:


Try again,

not only is history on my side the present is on my side as well

Didge wrote:Hilarious, so we are now to modern day by some extremists.


Again what does history show us:


This is the protection which the servant of God, 'Umar, the Ruler of the Believers has granted to the people of Eiliya [Jerusalem]. The protection is for their lives and properties, their churches and crosses, their sick and healthy and for all their coreligionists. Their churches shall not be used for habitation, nor shall they be demolished, nor shall any injury be done to them or to their compounds, or to their crosses, nor shall their properties be injured in any way. There shall be no compulsion for these people in the matter of religion, nor shall any of them suffer any injury on account of religion... Whatever is written herein is under the covenant of God and the responsibility of His Messenger, of the Caliphs and of the believers, and shall hold good as long as they pay Jizya [the tax for their defense] imposed on them."

Those non-Muslims who took part in defense together with the Muslims were exempted from paying Jizya, and when the Muslims had to retreat from a city whose non-Muslim citizens had paid this tax for their defense, the tax was returned to the non-Muslims. The old, the poor and the disabled of Muslims and non-Muslims alike were provided for from the public treasury and from the Zakat funds..

Umar(R) wrote to his army generals: “Never levy the tax (Jizya) on women or little children and never levy the tax except on men who shave their beards" - which means adults who started to have beards and shave them.


History proves smelly wrong again:


Try again,

that's not "history"

that's a single individual leader, who is acting on his own accord outside the qur'an

smelly_bandit wrote:

Didge wrote:Hilarious, so we are now to modern day by some extremists.


Again what does history show us:


This is the protection which the servant of God, 'Umar, the Ruler of the Believers has granted to the people of Eiliya [Jerusalem]. The protection is for their lives and properties, their churches and crosses, their sick and healthy and for all their coreligionists. Their churches shall not be used for habitation, nor shall they be demolished, nor shall any injury be done to them or to their compounds, or to their crosses, nor shall their properties be injured in any way. There shall be no compulsion for these people in the matter of religion, nor shall any of them suffer any injury on account of religion... Whatever is written herein is under the covenant of God and the responsibility of His Messenger, of the Caliphs and of the believers, and shall hold good as long as they pay Jizya [the tax for their defense] imposed on them."

Those non-Muslims who took part in defense together with the Muslims were exempted from paying Jizya, and when the Muslims had to retreat from a city whose non-Muslim citizens had paid this tax for their defense, the tax was returned to the non-Muslims. The old, the poor and the disabled of Muslims and non-Muslims alike were provided for from the public treasury and from the Zakat funds..

Umar(R) wrote to his army generals: “Never levy the tax (Jizya) on women or little children and never levy the tax except on men who shave their beards" - which means adults who started to have beards and shave them.


History proves smelly wrong again:


Try again,

that's not "history"

that's a single individual leader, who is acting on his own accord outside the qur'an

 ://?roflmao?/: ://?roflmao?/: ://?roflmao?/: 


Only one of the followers of Muhammad who then went onto rule, a tad like saying Peter did not know Jesus.

Fuck me that was daft.

So again , you need to show the early history of Islam, which backs your point

You have none

Didge wrote:

smelly_bandit wrote:clam down didge, they are only Muslims barely human at all
its no great shame
anyway
jizya is not a government tax, its an extortion tax taken by Muslims from non Muslims in return for not killing them  
the numerous stories i have provided you with do not detail Iraqi or Iranian government tax collectors closing in on tax evaders, but rather normal Muhammadans who threaten christian communities with murder if the jizya is not paid
secondly there is not a single verse anywhere in the qur'an that states the jizya is only leveled at men.
i have challenged you on this issue before, and asked for the scripture you are talking about and you have run away every time
but i always have hope for you didge
what sura specifically states that women and children are to be excluded from jizya??
secondly Muslims in Iraq are currently "fighting" and as a result people are being killed, so when it says fight it means kill
therefore what we have is a unilateral declaration of religious war that orders ALL Muslims to kill any human being who does not believe as they do, until one of three criteria are met
the non Muslims convert to Islam
the non Muslims become conquered people and live as second class citizens under subjugation
or the non Muslims are wiped out during the invasion
this notion is backed up by the qur'an and the hadiths and by modern day events happening anywhere Muhammadan groups operate

QUR'AN

Quran (9:29) - "Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."

HADITH



Abu Dawud (14:2527) - The Prophet said: Striving in the path of Allah (jihad) is incumbent on you along with every ruler, whether he is pious or impious

Muslim (1:33) - the Messenger of Allah said: I have been commanded to fight against people till they testify that there is no god but Allah, that Muhammad is the messenger of Allah



Bukhari (8:387) - Allah's Apostle said, "I have been ordered to fight the people till they say: 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah'.  And if they say so, pray like our prayers, face our Qibla and slaughter as we slaughter, then their blood and property will be sacred to us and we will not interfere with them except legally."


Muslim (19:4294)
 When you meet your enemies who are polytheists, invite them to three courses of action. If they respond to any one of these, you also accept it and withold yourself from doing them any harm. Invite them to (accept) Islam; if they respond to you, accept it from them and desist from fighting against them. Then invite them to migrate from their lands to the land of Muhairs and inform them that, if they do so, they shall have all the privileges and obligations of the Muhajirs. If they refuse to migrate, tell them that they will have the status of Bedouin Muilims and will be subjected to the Commands of Allah like other Muslims, but they will not get any share from the spoils of war or Fai' except when they actually fight with the Muslims (against the disbelievers). If they refuse to accept Islam, demand from them the Jizya. If they agree to pay, accept it from them and hold off your hands. If they refuse to pay the tax, seek Allah's help and fight them.

and on and on and on and on

Hilarious and not backed up by any historicity, I have no need to say anymore, it does not need to be in the Quran as you keep laying claim to me and all historicity shows that indeed Muslims levied this tax only on to able bodied men, not women and children, so I have history on my side, thus your claim is false before it even starts. The fact that you ignore when the Muslims first took Jerusalem, they did not kill anyone shows you have no knowledge of history yet again. When the Muslims retreated they paid back this tax also because they could not defend them anymore, which was even less to pay than for Muslims.


Try again

As if a gender bias against men makes it any better.

Didge wrote:"This is the protection which the servant of God, 'Umar, the Ruler of the Believers has granted to the people of Eiliya [Jerusalem]. The protection is for their lives and properties, their churches and crosses, their sick and healthy and for all their coreligionists. Their churches shall not be used for habitation, nor shall they be demolished, nor shall any injury be done to them or to their compounds, or to their crosses, nor shall their properties be injured in any way. There shall be no compulsion for these people in the matter of religion, nor shall any of them suffer any injury on account of religion... Whatever is written herein is under the covenant of God and the responsibility of His Messenger, of the Caliphs and of the believers, and shall hold good as long as they pay Jizya [the tax for their defense] imposed on them."
Those non-Muslims who took part in defense together with the Muslims were exempted from paying Jizya, and when the Muslims had to retreat from a city whose non-Muslim citizens had paid this tax for their defense, the tax was returned to the non-Muslims. The old, the poor and the disabled of Muslims and non-Muslims alike were provided for from the public treasury and from the Zakat funds..
Umar(R) wrote to his army generals: “Never levy the tax (Jizya) on women or little children and never levy the tax except on men who shave their beards" - which means adults who started to have beards and shave them.
History proves smelly wrong again:

Sounds like extortion to me, just like any protection racket.
The only threat to them are Muslims who they then have to pay not to kill them or occupy or demolish their buildings and churches and not to destroy their holy artifacts.

Tommy Monk wrote:

Didge wrote:"This is the protection which the servant of God, 'Umar, the Ruler of the Believers has granted to the people of Eiliya [Jerusalem]. The protection is for their lives and properties, their churches and crosses, their sick and healthy and for all their coreligionists. Their churches shall not be used for habitation, nor shall they be demolished, nor shall any injury be done to them or to their compounds, or to their crosses, nor shall their properties be injured in any way. There shall be no compulsion for these people in the matter of religion, nor shall any of them suffer any injury on account of religion... Whatever is written herein is under the covenant of God and the responsibility of His Messenger, of the Caliphs and of the believers, and shall hold good as long as they pay Jizya [the tax for their defense] imposed on them."
Those non-Muslims who took part in defense together with the Muslims were exempted from paying Jizya, and when the Muslims had to retreat from a city whose non-Muslim citizens had paid this tax for their defense, the tax was returned to the non-Muslims. The old, the poor and the disabled of Muslims and non-Muslims alike were provided for from the public treasury and from the Zakat funds..
Umar(R) wrote to his army generals: “Never levy the tax (Jizya) on women or little children and never levy the tax except on men who shave their beards" - which means adults who started to have beards and shave them.
History proves smelly wrong again:

Sounds like extortion to me, just like any protection racket.
The only threat to them are Muslims who they then have to pay not to kill them or occupy or demolish their buildings and churches and not to destroy their holy artifacts.

So you think are tax system is extortion now do you.

By the way the Christians did the same

i think you're missing a few things there didgey boy

considering you didn't give the link i can only assume you edited or "forgot" to post the whole thing

here is the real pact of umar,

THE Pact of Umar is the body of limitations and privileges entered into by treaty between conquering Muslims and conquered non-Muslims. We have no special treaty of this sort with the Jews, but we must assume that all conquered peoples, including the Jews, had to subscribe to it. Thus the laws cited below and directed against churches apply to synagogues too. The Pact was probably originated about 637 by Umar I after the conquest of Christian Syria and Palestine. By accretions from established practices and precedents, the Pact was extended; yet despite these additions the whole Pact was ascribed to Umar. There are many variants of the text and scholars deny that the text as it now stands could have come from the pen of Umar I; it is generally assumed that its present form dates from about the ninth century.

The Pact of Umar has served to govern the relations between the Muslims and "the people of the book," such as Jews, Christians, and the like, down to the present day.

In addition to the conditions of the Pact listed below, the Jews, like the Christians, paid a head-tax in return for protection, and for exemption from military service. Jews and Christians were also forbidden to hold government office. This Pact, like much medieval legislation, was honored more in the breach than in the observance. In general, though, the Pact increased in stringency with the centuries and was still in force in the 20th century in lands such as Yemen. The Pact is in Arabic.

In the name of God, the Merciful, the Compassionate!

This is a writing to Umar from the Christians of such and such a city. When You [Muslims] marched against us [Christians],: we asked of you protection for ourselves, our posterity, our possessions, and our co-religionists; and we made this stipulation with you, that we will not erect in our city or the suburbs any new monastery, church, cell or hermitage; that we will not repair any of such buildings that may fall into ruins, or renew those that may be situated in the Muslim quarters of the town; that we will not refuse the Muslims entry into our churches either by night or by day; that we will open the gates wide to passengers and travellers; that we will receive any Muslim traveller into our houses and give him food and lodging for three nights; that we will not harbor any spy in our churches or houses, or conceal any enemy of the Muslims. [At least six of these laws were taken over from earlier Christian laws against infidels.]

That we will not teach our children the Qu'ran [some nationalist Arabs feared the infidels would ridicule the Qu'ran; others did not want infidels even to learn the language]; that we will not make a show of the Christian religion nor invite any one to embrace it; that we will not prevent any of our kinsmen from embracing Islam, if they so desire. That we will honor the Muslims and rise up in our assemblies when they wish to take their seats; that we will not imitate them in our dress, either in the cap, turban, sandals, or parting of the hair; that we will not make use of their expressions of speech, nor adopt their surnames [infidels must not use greetings and special phrases employed only by Muslims]; that we will not ride on saddles, or gird on swords, or take to ourselves arms or wear them, or engrave Arabic inscriptions on our rings; that we will not sell wine [forbidden to Muslims]; that we will shave the front of our heads; that we will keep to our own style of dress, wherever we may be; that we will wear girdles round our waists [infidels wore leather or cord girdles; Muslims, cloth and silk].

That we will not display the cross upon our churches or display our crosses or our sacred books in the streets of the Muslims, or in their market-places; that we will strike the clappers in our churches lightly [wooden rattles or bells summoned the people to church or synagogue]; that we will not recite our services in a loud voice when a Muslim is present; that we will not carry Palm branches [on Palm Sunday] or our images in procession in the streets; that at the burial of our dead we will not chant loudly or carry lighted candles in the streets of the Muslims or their market places; that we will not take any slaves that have already been in the possession of Muslims, nor spy into their houses; and that we will not strike any Muslim.

All this we promise to observe, on behalf of ourselves and our co-religionists, and receive protection from you in exchange; and if we violate any of the conditions of this agreement, then we forfeit your protection and you are at liberty to treat us as enemies and rebels.

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/jewish/jews-umar.asp

Didge wrote:

Tommy Monk wrote:
Sounds like extortion to me, just like any protection racket.
The only threat to them are Muslims who they then have to pay not to kill them or occupy or demolish their buildings and churches and not to destroy their holy artifacts.

So you think are tax system is extortion now do you.

By the way the Christians did the same

The Inland Revenue won't smash up your house or cut your head off for not filling our your tax returns in time. To use one of your favourite phrases, what a false argument.

The Puzzler wrote:

Didge wrote:


So you think are tax system is extortion now do you.

By the way the Christians did the same

The Inland Revenue won't smash up your house or cut your head off for not filling our your tax returns in time. To use one of your favourite phrases, what a false argument.

They will send you to jail, will they not as a punishment.

Do you even know what you are talking about her, or just making lame assumptions?

Tommy Monk wrote:

Didge wrote:"This is the protection which the servant of God, 'Umar, the Ruler of the Believers has granted to the people of Eiliya [Jerusalem]. The protection is for their lives and properties, their churches and crosses, their sick and healthy and for all their coreligionists. Their churches shall not be used for habitation, nor shall they be demolished, nor shall any injury be done to them or to their compounds, or to their crosses, nor shall their properties be injured in any way. There shall be no compulsion for these people in the matter of religion, nor shall any of them suffer any injury on account of religion... Whatever is written herein is under the covenant of God and the responsibility of His Messenger, of the Caliphs and of the believers, and shall hold good as long as they pay Jizya [the tax for their defense] imposed on them."
Those non-Muslims who took part in defense together with the Muslims were exempted from paying Jizya, and when the Muslims had to retreat from a city whose non-Muslim citizens had paid this tax for their defense, the tax was returned to the non-Muslims. The old, the poor and the disabled of Muslims and non-Muslims alike were provided for from the public treasury and from the Zakat funds..
Umar(R) wrote to his army generals: “Never levy the tax (Jizya) on women or little children and never levy the tax except on men who shave their beards" - which means adults who started to have beards and shave them.
History proves smelly wrong again:

Sounds like extortion to me, just like any protection racket.
The only threat to them are Muslims who they then have to pay not to kill them or occupy or demolish their buildings and churches and not to destroy their holy artifacts.

exactly right

its like someone breaking into your house and saying "your life is in danger but if you pay us money you will be safe"

smelly_bandit wrote:

Tommy Monk wrote:
Sounds like extortion to me, just like any protection racket.
The only threat to them are Muslims who they then have to pay not to kill them or occupy or demolish their buildings and churches and not to destroy their holy artifacts.

exactly right

its like someone breaking into your house and saying "your life is in danger but if you pay us money you will be safe"

So at least now you recognise you were wrong and that the Christians also had the same tax

Didge wrote:

The Puzzler wrote:
The Inland Revenue won't smash up your house or cut your head off for not filling our your tax returns in time. To use one of your favourite phrases, what a false argument.

They will send you to jail, will they not as a punishment.

Do you even know what you are talking about her, or just making lame assumptions?

jail is not an option in Muslim lands. nor is it the inland revenue collecting taxes

It’s the same in Syria and Iraq. ”Rebels” recently went to a Christian man’s “shop and gave him three options: become Muslim; pay $70,000 as a tax levied on non-Muslims, known as jizya; or be killed along with his family…. Androus from Mosul, Iraq… says he received a similar demand via telephone. ‘Because you are infidels, you have to pay jizya,’ he recalled being told over the phone. ‘Either you pay jizya, or we will kill you or your son.’”

Collecting jizya from non-Muslims was interrupted in the 19th century, thanks to European intervention. Today, the jizya and other injustices against Mideast Christians — in Libya, Egypt, Syria, and Iraq — have returned precisely thanks to Western intervention, in this case, U.S. support for the Muslim Brotherhood and its jihadi offshoots.

http://www.raymondibrahim.com/Muslim-persecution-of-christians/brotherhood-imposes-jizya-tribute-on-egypts-christians/

Didge wrote:

smelly_bandit wrote:

exactly right

its like someone breaking into your house and saying "your life is in danger but if you pay us money you will be safe"

So at least now you recognise you were wrong and that the Christians also had the same tax

It’s the same in Syria and Iraq. ”Rebels” recently went to a Christian man’s “shop and gave him three options: become Muslim; pay $70,000 as a tax levied on non-Muslims, known as jizya; or be killed along with his family….

Androus from Mosul, Iraq… says he received a similar demand via telephone. ‘Because you are infidels, you have to pay jizya,’ he recalled being told over the phone. ‘Either you pay jizya, or we will kill you or your son.’”

Collecting jizya from non-Muslims was interrupted in the 19th century, thanks to European intervention. Today, the jizya and other injustices against Mideast Christians — in Libya, Egypt, Syria, and Iraq — have returned precisely thanks to Western intervention, in this case, U.S. support for the Muslim Brotherhood and its jihadi offshoots.

http://www.raymondibrahim.com/Muslim-persecution-of-christians/brotherhood-imposes-jizya-tribute-on-egypts-christians/

smelly_bandit wrote:

Didge wrote:

So at least now you recognise you were wrong and that the Christians also had the same tax

It’s the same in Syria and Iraq. ”Rebels” recently went to a Christian man’s “shop and gave him three options: become Muslim; pay $70,000 as a tax levied on non-Muslims, known as jizya; or be killed along with his family….

Androus from Mosul, Iraq… says he received a similar demand via telephone. ‘Because you are infidels, you have to pay jizya,’ he recalled being told over the phone. ‘Either you pay jizya, or we will kill you or your son.’”

Collecting jizya from non-Muslims was interrupted in the 19th century, thanks to European intervention. Today, the jizya and other injustices against Mideast Christians — in Libya, Egypt, Syria, and Iraq — have returned precisely thanks to Western intervention, in this case, U.S. support for the Muslim Brotherhood and its jihadi offshoots.

http://www.raymondibrahim.com/Muslim-persecution-of-christians/brotherhood-imposes-jizya-tribute-on-egypts-christians/

Is this all you can keep doing smelly?

Show me the early history to back your point, posting modern day examples of extremists proves to me you are clutching at straws an proving there is now a modern interpretation, not as it once was.

Try again

Do Christians have this tax now?

nicko wrote:Do Christians have this tax now?

Are you asking if we have Taxes now?

Didge wrote:

smelly_bandit wrote:

It’s the same in Syria and Iraq. ”Rebels” recently went to a Christian man’s “shop and gave him three options: become Muslim; pay $70,000 as a tax levied on non-Muslims, known as jizya; or be killed along with his family….

Androus from Mosul, Iraq… says he received a similar demand via telephone. ‘Because you are infidels, you have to pay jizya,’ he recalled being told over the phone. ‘Either you pay jizya, or we will kill you or your son.’”

Collecting jizya from non-Muslims was interrupted in the 19th century, thanks to European intervention. Today, the jizya and other injustices against Mideast Christians — in Libya, Egypt, Syria, and Iraq — have returned precisely thanks to Western intervention, in this case, U.S. support for the Muslim Brotherhood and its jihadi offshoots.

http://www.raymondibrahim.com/Muslim-persecution-of-christians/brotherhood-imposes-jizya-tribute-on-egypts-christians/

Is this all you can keep doing smelly?

Show me the early history to back your point, posting modern day examples of extremists proves to me you are clutching at straws an proving there is now a modern interpretation, not as it once was.

Try again

its all i need to do didge

it shows you're wrong, it shows that jizya is not the fluffy cuddly generic taxes fairly levied on one and all and then routinely collected by appointed government officials

jizya is a tax paid ONLY by non Muslims for "protection"

they are conquered people in their own lands surrounded by Muslims, therefore the only people they need protecting from are Muslims

an invading christian army would be welcomed as it would be coming to liberate them

so please explain who they need protecting from exactly??

nicko wrote:Do Christians have this tax now?

yes the jizya is imposed on christian communities in all Muslim countries

I know we have taxes, I'm asking if Christians ask for this tax in the same way as Muslims

smelly_bandit wrote:

Didge wrote:

Is this all you can keep doing smelly?

Show me the early history to back your point, posting modern day examples of extremists proves to me you are clutching at straws an proving there is now a modern interpretation, not as it once was.

Try again

its all i need to do didge

it shows you're wrong, it shows that jizya is not the fluffy cuddly generic taxes fairly levied on one and all and then routinely collected by appointed government officials

jizya is a tax paid ONLY by non Muslims for "protection"

they are conquered people in their own lands surrounded by Muslims,  therefore the only people they need protecting from are Muslims

an invading christian army would be welcomed as it would be coming to liberate them  

so please explain who they need protecting from exactly??

No it shows you clutch at straws, you cannot even show many Muslim Governments have this, you show examples of extremists.

So again you need to show the early history that wood show this tax was meant for men, women an children of which you have failed to do.

I know history, which will always be your downfall when debating the history of Islam

This tax was used to protect them from invaders as well, showing how little more you know of history and is this why the Jews also fought alongside the Muslims against the crusaders and then were butchered by the Christians. No I guess they did not need protecting at all.

Doh

Try again

nicko wrote:I know we have taxes, I'm asking if Christians ask for this tax in the same way as Muslims

Yes they once did, just as Muslim nations once did

Didge wrote:

Tommy Monk wrote:
Sounds like extortion to me, just like any protection racket.
The only threat to them are Muslims who they then have to pay not to kill them or occupy or demolish their buildings and churches and not to destroy their holy artifacts.

So you think are tax system is extortion now do you.
By the way the Christians did the same

Is that a freudian slip there dodge?
Did you mean 'our'...????

But smelly says the Muslims are asking for it now?

Didge wrote:

smelly_bandit wrote:

its all i need to do didge

it shows you're wrong, it shows that jizya is not the fluffy cuddly generic taxes fairly levied on one and all and then routinely collected by appointed government officials

jizya is a tax paid ONLY by non Muslims for "protection"

they are conquered people in their own lands surrounded by Muslims,  therefore the only people they need protecting from are Muslims

an invading christian army would be welcomed as it would be coming to liberate them  

so please explain who they need protecting from exactly??

No it shows you clutch at straws, you cannot even show many Muslim Governments have this, you show examples of extremists.

So again you need to show the early history that wood show this tax was meant for men, women an children of which you have failed to do.

I know history, which will always be your downfall when debating the history of Islam

This tax was used to protect them from invaders as well, showing how little more you know of history and is this why the Jews also fought alongside the Muslims against the crusaders and then were butchered by the Christians. No I guess they did not need protecting at all.

Doh

Try again

this is EXACTLY the point im making

it is NOT currently a government levied tax, which disproves your attempts to show it as just an normal tax levied on everyone

its levied only on Christians,

protect them from what invaders?? the Muslims WERE the invaders

before the Muslims invaded they did not have to pay the jizya

and who are isis protecting the Christians from??

nicko wrote:But smelly says the Muslims are asking for it now?

Some extremists are, how many Muslim Governments?

smelly_bandit wrote:

Didge wrote:

No it shows you clutch at straws, you cannot even show many Muslim Governments have this, you show examples of extremists.

So again you need to show the early history that wood show this tax was meant for men, women an children of which you have failed to do.

I know history, which will always be your downfall when debating the history of Islam

This tax was used to protect them from invaders as well, showing how little more you know of history and is this why the Jews also fought alongside the Muslims against the crusaders and then were butchered by the Christians. No I guess they did not need protecting at all.

Doh

Try again

this is EXACTLY the point im making

it is NOT currently a government levied tax, which disproves your attempts to show it as just an normal tax levied on everyone  

its levied only on Christians,

protect them from what invaders?? the Muslims WERE the invaders

before the Muslims invaded they did not have to pay the jizya  

and who are isis protecting the Christians from??

Levied only on Christians?


 ://?roflmao?/: ://?roflmao?/: ://?roflmao?/: 


That just proved you know nothing of history.

I don't know, how many Muslim goverments are asking for it ,is it many?

[quote="nicko"]I don't know, how many Muslim  goverments are asking for it ,is it many?[/quote

Well has smelly posted any?

I'm asking you.

nicko wrote:I'm asking you.

Why not learn for yourself:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jizya

Didge wrote:

smelly_bandit wrote:

this is EXACTLY the point im making

it is NOT currently a government levied tax, which disproves your attempts to show it as just an normal tax levied on everyone  

its levied only on Christians,

protect them from what invaders?? the Muslims WERE the invaders

before the Muslims invaded they did not have to pay the jizya  

and who are isis protecting the Christians from??

Levied only on Christians?


 ://?roflmao?/: ://?roflmao?/: ://?roflmao?/: 


That just proved you know nothing of history.

who else was it levied on didge??

go on you know you can do it  ::D:: 

Didge wrote:

nicko wrote:I'm asking you.

Why not learn for yourself:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jizya

didge running away again i see

hasn't a clue what he is talking about so he relies on outside sources to do his fighting for him

nicko is asking YOU, he isnt asking your wikipedia shield

It appears they are still doing it [in places]

Didge wrote:

nicko wrote:But smelly says the Muslims are asking for it now?

Some extremists are, how many Muslim Governments?

exatly didge

its not currently an OFFICIAL tax like you tried to pretend it was

you're so stupid that you dismantle your own arguments in your enthusiasm to be "right" you don't even realize that you just disproved the "protection argument"

smelly_bandit wrote:

Didge wrote:

Why not learn for yourself:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jizya

didge running away again i see

hasn't a clue what he is talking about so he relies on outside sources to do his fighting for him

nicko is asking YOU, he isnt asking your wikipedia shield

No I am right here thanks

It shows the history.


Try again