London Restaurants Stop Serving Rabbit After Horrifying Undercover Investigation Exposes Animal Cruelty In Slaughterhouses (GRAPHIC VIDEO)

First topic message reminder :

British restaurants have been serving rabbit dishes using meat from animals forced to live in appalling conditions in Spanish factory farms, a horrifying undercover investigation has found.

Campaigners from the Animal Equality charity went undercover to expose the conditions at four slaughterhouses and 70 farms, including two which it says have supplied rabbits to restaurants such as the Terrace at the National Theatre in London.

The charity has posted a video and images from the two-year investigation on its website, which includes footage of a vet smashing a rabbit against the ground.

The investigation found animals killed by blunt force, workers throwing live rabbits into waste containers due to over-production and animals with open wounds or infections left in cages without treatment.

It also found cannibalism among certain animals provoked by over-crowded conditions and dead animals left to rot in cages next to live animals.

The charity said it had already taken legal action against the farms and slaughterhouses investigated.

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014/06/05/animal-cruelty-london-restaurants_n_5453829.html?utm_hp_ref=uk

Didge wrote:@ Victor

that would explain why you spend so much time...

victorisnotamused wrote:I agree...DO make the stupid people shut up....

didge =

Victor=

Victor=

Night   ::D::

Didge wrote:

victorisnotamused wrote:I agree...DO make the stupid people shut up....

didge =

Victor=

didge =

Victor+

didge =

Victor=

didge =

didge =

Victor=

didge =

Victor=

didge..in consideration of his last post....

Victor=

didge volunteers to help the oppressed...

Victor=

Good night Victor, I will leave you something to enjoy:




All the best.

brilliant work that :-)

love the whole thing...I have it on LP.....

victorisnotamused wrote:brilliant work that :-)

love the whole thing...I have it on LP.....

So do I love the album, have mine playing right now, so see you later

 ::D::

FluffyBunny wrote:

Stooo wrote:
You need to cook it with a bit of pork or beef fat if you're going to fry or roast it. Slow cooking in a stew or a pie will bring out more flavour, rosemary will really bring out the flavour.

Thats bloody horrific!

Who eats rabbit? They are household pets.. sorry, I think this is bloody bonkers. I think anyone who actually eats rabbits of their own free will is mentally unwell.

  

SORRY to disillusion you, Fluffy...

BUT ~ only a very small % (far less than 1% of 1% !) are "household pets" ~ over in Europe, parts of Asia and N. America where various spp. of rabbits and hares are native to, they are part of the local wildlife ~ and naturally plentiful enough as to supply part of the diet to hundreds of millions of people around the world..

AT the same time, where rabbits were introduced into areas where they weren't endemic (largely by the British or the French settlers, sometimes the Spanish or Dutch, by the way..), such as England a long time ago; then Australia, New Zealand, and certain South American and African countries a couple of hundred years ago ~ they have become FERAL pests across the countryside, where they found superior conditions and a lack of natural predators.

THEN they did what fluffy little boy and girl bunnies do when they get together ~ and "bred like rabbits" !!!  To such an extent that in a bad year they can cause $$hundreds of millions$$ of damage to crops, farmland, local bushland and across the countryside in those more heavily infested places like Australia or England..

IN ALL of these countries eating fluffy little bunnies is a legitimate part of meat consumption. AND an efficient and highly effective means of feral animal control..

AND often also provided very handy extra incomes to the hunters during periods of economic downturn.

EVEN the commercially/professionally farmed "domesticated" rabbits in Britain, Europe, Russia, and the Americas, and to a lesser extent Oz and NZ, greatly outnumber the pet rabbit populations...

THE consumers "mental health" isn't an issue, either ~ no doubt you won't eat horse, snails, guinea pigs, dogs, moose, goats, Bambi, eels, Puffer fish, turtles, dugong/manitay, nor kangaroos either ~ but does that mean that all of those people who do eat things that you can't come at are all "bonkers", simply because they have different tastes to you !?!

WOULD you prefer that they starved instead to meet your standards, Fluffy ? OR, do you want them to destroy their local environs just so they can grow beef, lamb and pork to meet your Anglo-centric expectations ?    

 



  

Lone Wolf wrote: 



  

told you....

seen the film. read the book ............ATE the cast  ::D:: 

Lone Wolf wrote:

FluffyBunny wrote:

Thats bloody horrific!

Who eats rabbit? They are household pets.. sorry, I think this is bloody bonkers. I think anyone who actually eats rabbits of their own free will is mentally unwell.

  

SORRY to disillusion you, Fluffy...

BUT ~ only a very small % (far less than 1% of 1% !) are "household pets" ~ over in Europe, parts of Asia and N. America where various spp. of rabbits and hares are native to, they are part of the local wildlife ~ and naturally plentiful enough as to supply part of the diet to hundreds of millions of people around the world..

AT the same time, where rabbits were introduced into areas where they weren't endemic (largely by the British or the French settlers, sometimes the Spanish or Dutch, by the way..), such as England a long time ago; then Australia, New Zealand, and certain South American and African countries a couple of hundred years ago ~ they have become FERAL pests across the countryside, where they found superior conditions and a lack of natural predators.

THEN they did what fluffy little boy and girl bunnies do when they get together ~ and "bred like rabbits" !!!  To such an extent that in a bad year they can cause $$hundreds of millions$$ of damage to crops, farmland, local bushland and across the countryside in those more heavily infested places like Australia or England..

£300, 000,000 thats 300 million...last year here in england...heavens knows how much in Oz

IN ALL of these countries eating fluffy little bunnies is a legitimate part of meat consumption. AND an efficient and highly effective means of feral animal control..

AND often also provided very handy extra incomes to the hunters during periods of economic downturn.

EVEN the commercially/professionally farmed "domesticated" rabbits in Britain, Europe, Russia, and the Americas, and to a lesser extent Oz and NZ, greatly outnumber the pet rabbit populations...

THE consumers "mental health" isn't an issue, either ~ no doubt you won't eat horse, snails, guinea pigs, dogs, moose, goats, Bambi, eels, Puffer fish, turtles, dugong/manitay, nor kangaroos either ~ but does that mean that all of those people who do eat things that you can't come at are all "bonkers", simply because they have different tastes to you !?!

WOULD you prefer that they starved instead to meet your standards, Fluffy ? OR, do you want them to destroy their local environs just so they can grow beef, lamb and pork to meet your Anglo-centric expectations ?    

at least we agree on something LW.

victorisnotamused wrote:

told you....

seen the film. read the book ............ATE the cast  ::D:: 

I even watched the cartoon series.

victorisnotamused wrote:

Lone Wolf wrote: 



  

told you....

seen the film. read the book ............ATE the cast  ::D:: 

OMG,Bright Eyes

That always makes me cry    

Lone Wolf wrote:

FluffyBunny wrote:

Thats bloody horrific!

Who eats rabbit? They are household pets.. sorry, I think this is bloody bonkers. I think anyone who actually eats rabbits of their own free will is mentally unwell.

  

SORRY to disillusion you, Fluffy...

BUT ~ only a very small % (far less than 1% of 1% !) are "household pets" ~ over in Europe, parts of Asia and N. America where various spp. of rabbits and hares are native to, they are part of the local wildlife ~ and naturally plentiful enough as to supply part of the diet to hundreds of millions of people around the world..

AT the same time, where rabbits were introduced into areas where they weren't endemic (largely by the British or the French settlers, sometimes the Spanish or Dutch, by the way..), such as England a long time ago; then Australia, New Zealand, and certain South American and African countries a couple of hundred years ago ~ they have become FERAL pests across the countryside, where they found superior conditions and a lack of natural predators.

THEN they did what fluffy little boy and girl bunnies do when they get together ~ and "bred like rabbits" !!!  To such an extent that in a bad year they can cause $$hundreds of millions$$ of damage to crops, farmland, local bushland and across the countryside in those more heavily infested places like Australia or England..

IN ALL of these countries eating fluffy little bunnies is a legitimate part of meat consumption. AND an efficient and highly effective means of feral animal control..

AND often also provided very handy extra incomes to the hunters during periods of economic downturn.

EVEN the commercially/professionally farmed "domesticated" rabbits in Britain, Europe, Russia, and the Americas, and to a lesser extent Oz and NZ, greatly outnumber the pet rabbit populations...

THE consumers "mental health" isn't an issue, either ~ no doubt you won't eat horse, snails, guinea pigs, dogs, moose, goats, Bambi, eels, Puffer fish, turtles, dugong/manitay, nor kangaroos either ~ but does that mean that all of those people who do eat things that you can't come at are all "bonkers", simply because they have different tastes to you !?!

WOULD you prefer that they starved instead to meet your standards, Fluffy ? OR, do you want them to destroy their local environs just so they can grow beef, lamb and pork to meet your Anglo-centric expectations ?    

I will answer this tomorrow but yes I think people who eat rabbit when they don't need to are not ethical.

Just want to express how easily amused I am ... the person saying not to eat bunnies is FluffyBunny ... heh-heh, OK, I'm going away now ...

Ben_Reilly wrote:Just want to express how easily amused I am ... the person saying not to eat bunnies is FluffyBunny ... heh-heh, OK, I'm going away now ...

Well you can understand how it might worry me   

Ben_Reilly wrote:Just want to express how easily amused I am ... the person saying not to eat bunnies is FluffyBunny ... heh-heh, OK, I'm going away now ...

   

FluffyBunny wrote:

Stooo wrote:

You need to cook it with a bit of pork or beef fat if you're going to fry or roast it. Slow cooking in a stew or a pie will bring out more flavour, rosemary will really bring out the flavour.

Thats bloody horrific!

Who eats rabbit? They are household pets..sorry,I think this is bloody bonkers. I think anyone who actually eats rabbits of their own free will is mentally unwell.

What a ridiculous statement   Do you eat lamb or veal? Do you know how cute those little buggers are? Are you aware that people also keep rats,mice and even spiders for pets? I think it's touching that you're so overly sensitive when it comes to the welfare of rabbits but it would be even more touching if you would stop bullying people ( real human beings ) like you do on that other cesspit forum for your own gratification instead of worrying about a few rabbits that are a huge problem and a mega pest to our farming community. Get your priorities straight FFS

Feroza wrote:

FluffyBunny wrote:

Thats bloody horrific!

Who eats rabbit? They are household pets..sorry,I think this is bloody bonkers. I think anyone who actually eats rabbits of their own free will is mentally unwell.

What a ridiculous statement   Do you eat lamb or veal? Do you know how cute those little buggers are?  Are you aware that people also keep rats,mice and even spiders for pets? I think it's touching that you're so overly sensitive when it comes to the welfare of rabbits but it would be even more touching if you would stop bullying people ( real human beings ) like you do on that other cesspit forum for your own gratification instead of worrying about a few rabbits that are a huge problem and a mega pest to our farming community. Get your priorities straight FFS

Wow another one that has just come over itching to start a fight.

 

Didge wrote:

Feroza wrote:

What a ridiculous statement   Do you eat lamb or veal? Do you know how cute those little buggers are?  Are you aware that people also keep rats,mice and even spiders for pets? I think it's touching that you're so overly sensitive when it comes to the welfare of rabbits but it would be even more touching if you would stop bullying people ( real human beings ) like you do on that other cesspit forum for your own gratification instead of worrying about a few rabbits that are a huge problem and a mega pest to our farming community. Get your priorities straight FFS

Wow another one that has just come over itching to start a fight.

 

Quite,it's rather sad isn't it.

However I will address the point as I promised to do.I personally couldn't eat rabbit,I couldn't even eat duck.To me when I invisage rabbits,yes maybe naively I think of white fluffy angels in hutches.Sorry,I cannot help that as when I was a child I had several friends who had rabbits as pets.I can't imagine eating a rabbit.And no actually I do not eat lamb or veal.I eat fish and very very occasionaly chicken,but I can't call myself a vegetarian as I do consume fish.

I am ignorant of the problems that rabbits pose to the farming community,I intend to read the posts above and educate myself.But I still personally,couldn't possibly eat a rabbit.It's not something I could do.

Didge wrote:

Feroza wrote:

What a ridiculous statement   Do you eat lamb or veal? Do you know how cute those little buggers are?  Are you aware that people also keep rats,mice and even spiders for pets? I think it's touching that you're so overly sensitive when it comes to the welfare of rabbits but it would be even more touching if you would stop bullying people ( real human beings ) like you do on that other cesspit forum for your own gratification instead of worrying about a few rabbits that are a huge problem and a mega pest to our farming community. Get your priorities straight FFS

Wow another one that has just come over itching to start a fight.

 

Nop,I'm not here to fight,just giving my opinion. I hope that's OK with you.

Feroza wrote:

Didge wrote:


Wow another one that has just come over itching to start a fight.

 

Nop,I'm not here to fight,just giving my opinion. I hope that's OK with you.

You are bringing other forums into a thread about rabbits,you are here to fight   

Feroza wrote:

Didge wrote:


Wow another one that has just come over itching to start a fight.

 

Nop,I'm not here to fight,just giving my opinion. I hope that's OK with you.

Then debate the points.

FluffyBunny wrote:

Didge wrote:


Wow another one that has just come over itching to start a fight.

 

Quite,it's rather sad isn't it.

However I will address the point as I promised to do.I personally couldn't eat rabbit,I couldn't even eat duck.To me when I invisage rabbits,yes maybe naively I think of white fluffy angels in hutches.Sorry,I cannot help that as when I was a child I had several friends who had rabbits as pets.I can't imagine eating a rabbit.And no actually I do not eat lamb or veal.I eat fish and very very occasionaly chicken,but I can't call myself a vegetarian as I do consume fish.

I am ignorant of the problems that rabbits pose to the farming community,I intend to read the posts above and educate myself.But I still personally,couldn't possibly eat a rabbit.It's not something I could do.

What's sad about my post? That I have a different opinion to you?

FluffyBunny wrote:

Feroza wrote:

Nop,I'm not here to fight,just giving my opinion. I hope that's OK with you.

You are bringing other forums into a thread about rabbits,you are here to fight   

So what? I got a point though. You're all concerned about a few rabbits that are causing huge problems and yet you have no concern about people who you hurt with your acid and venomous comments. You're a hypocrite,end of! Don't eat the fucking rabbit if you don't want to but don't tell others it's wrong little Mother Theresa  ::hndbg:: 

Feroza wrote:

FluffyBunny wrote:

You are bringing other forums into a thread about rabbits,you are here to fight   

So what? I got a point though. You're all concerned about a few rabbits that are causing huge problems and yet you have no concern about people who you hurt with your acid and venomous  comments. You're a hypocrite,end of! Don't eat the fucking rabbit if you don't want to but don't tell others it's wrong little Mother Theresa  ::hndbg:: 

You're doing it again.
Stay on topic and I will respond to you.I am not interested in what personal grudge you have against me and neither is anyone else.

FluffyBunny wrote:

Feroza wrote:

So what? I got a point though. You're all concerned about a few rabbits that are causing huge problems and yet you have no concern about people who you hurt with your acid and venomous  comments. You're a hypocrite,end of! Don't eat the fucking rabbit if you don't want to but don't tell others it's wrong little Mother Theresa  ::hndbg:: 

You're doing it again.
Stay on topic and I will respond to you.I am not interested in what personal grudge you have against me and neither is anyone else.

My comment is very much on topic,I'm right aren't I? You worry about a few rabbits that cause huge problems,they're a pest FFS   Do you know how quickly they reproduce?   and yet you cba about people's feelings...and why are you talking for everyone else anyway? Who made you their spokesperson?

Feroza wrote:

FluffyBunny wrote:

You're doing it again.
Stay on topic and I will respond to you.I am not interested in what personal grudge you have against me and neither is anyone else.

My comment is very much on topic,I'm right aren't I? You worry about a few rabbits that cause huge problems,they're a pest FFS   Do you know how quickly they reproduce?   and yet you cba about people's feelings...and why are you talking for everyone else anyway? Who made you their spokesperson?

Will answer before I go

Absurd logic, as I am sure rabbits do not see themselves as pests, why would they when it is their lives to reproduce and live on the land as we do. All your saying is we are the higher pecking order and thus because of this, deem them to be insignificant to ourselves as your reason to class them as pests. Thus we have altered the environment and confine them to set boundaries and then justify killing them based off our own needs and not theirs..

I quite like eating Rabbit myself, but your view lacks morality

Didge wrote:

Feroza wrote:

My comment is very much on topic,I'm right aren't I? You worry about a few rabbits that cause huge problems,they're a pest FFS   Do you know how quickly they reproduce?   and yet you cba about people's feelings...and why are you talking for everyone else anyway? Who made you their spokesperson?

Will answer before I go

Absurd logic, as I am sure rabbits do not see themselves as pests, why would they when it is their lives to reproduce and live on the land as we do. All your saying is we are the higher pecking order and thus because of this, deem them to be insignificant to ourselves as your reason to class them as pests. Thus we have altered the environment and confine them to set boundaries and then justify killing them based off our own needs and not theirs..

I quite like eating Rabbit myself, but your view lacks morality

Well rats don't see themselves as pests either,neither do cockroaches and fleas...where do we draw the line? Just because a rabbit looks cute doesn't make it any less a pest...and do you not agree that we are in fact of the higher pecking order?

Feroza wrote:

Didge wrote:

Will answer before I go

Absurd logic, as I am sure rabbits do not see themselves as pests, why would they when it is their lives to reproduce and live on the land as we do. All your saying is we are the higher pecking order and thus because of this, deem them to be insignificant to ourselves as your reason to class them as pests. Thus we have altered the environment and confine them to set boundaries and then justify killing them based off our own needs and not theirs..

I quite like eating Rabbit myself, but your view lacks morality

Well rats don't see themselves as pests either,neither do cockroaches and fleas...where do we draw the line? Just because a rabbit looks cute doesn't make it any less a pest...and do you not agree that we are in fact of the higher pecking order?  

The same logic would apply to all the examples you have provided, again basing this what you yourself perceive as a human to what constitutes as a pest, again based off being the higher pecking order. I am not arrogant enough to believe we are the highest pecking order as something may always come along that is more than us, though at present we are. I am not against animals being killed, my point is your reasoning as to why lacks any moral logic. In other words the animals worth is not equal to that of the human.

Right, really am late now, byee[/quote]

Didge wrote:

Feroza wrote:

Well rats don't see themselves as pests either,neither do cockroaches and fleas...where do we draw the line? Just because a rabbit looks cute doesn't make it any less a pest...and do you not agree that we are in fact of the higher pecking order?  

The same logic would apply to all the examples you have provided, again basing this what you yourself perceive as a human to what constitutes as a pest, again based off being the higher pecking order. I am not arrogant enough to believe we are the highest pecking order as something may always come along that is more than us, though at present we are. I am not against animals being killed, my point is your reasoning as to why lacks any moral logic. In other words the animals worth is not equal to that of the human.

Right, really am late now, byee

[/quote]

Errrrmmm right  :\\:[:  Have a nice day x

FluffyBunny wrote:

Didge wrote:


Wow another one that has just come over itching to start a fight.

 

Quite,it's rather sad isn't it.

However I will address the point as I promised to do.I personally couldn't eat rabbit,I couldn't even eat duck.To me when I invisage rabbits,yes maybe naively I think of white fluffy angels in hutches.Sorry,I cannot help that as when I was a child I had several friends who had rabbits as pets.I can't imagine eating a rabbit.And no actually I do not eat lamb or veal.I eat fish and very very occasionaly chicken,but I can't call myself a vegetarian as I do consume fish.

I am ignorant of the problems that rabbits pose to the farming community,I intend to read the posts above and educate myself.But I still personally,couldn't possibly eat a rabbit.It's not something I could do.

well, i WAS going to roast you , since I was expecting a load of nonsense....

HOWEVER.....apart from your unnecessarily harsh comment about people who eat rabbit being mentally unwell, I actually respect what you are saying. A lot of our food preferences are dictated by "perceptions". YOU perception obviously is different to mine and many others...however that does not make you wrong, nor does it make me wrong...

Knowing how you feel, If you were ever to be a guest of mine, I would not feed you rabbit (or lamb or veal).

@feroza....stick to the point of the post...and keep your nastiness out of it....If you cant conduct yourself with a bit of decorum...keep outta the forum..simples....I dont like bullies...
and from your first posts here...I dont think I like you....

@ didge...I STILL find your logic as to the "rights " of animals to be flawed, however, as always you are entitled to your opinion...

victorisnotamused wrote:

FluffyBunny wrote:

Quite,it's rather sad isn't it.

However I will address the point as I promised to do.I personally couldn't eat rabbit,I couldn't even eat duck.To me when I invisage rabbits,yes maybe naively I think of white fluffy angels in hutches.Sorry,I cannot help that as when I was a child I had several friends who had rabbits as pets.I can't imagine eating a rabbit.And no actually I do not eat lamb or veal.I eat fish and very very occasionaly chicken,but I can't call myself a vegetarian as I do consume fish.

I am ignorant of the problems that rabbits pose to the farming community,I intend to read the posts above and educate myself.But I still personally,couldn't possibly eat a rabbit.It's not something I could do.

well, i WAS going to roast you , since I was expecting a load of nonsense....

HOWEVER.....apart from your unnecessarily harsh comment about people who eat rabbit being mentally unwell, I actually respect what you are saying. A lot of our food preferences are dictated by "perceptions".  YOU perception obviously is different to mine and many others...however that does not make you wrong, nor does it make me wrong...

Knowing how you feel, If you were ever to be a guest of mine, I would not feed you rabbit (or lamb or veal).

@feroza....stick to the point of the post...and keep your nastiness out of it....If you cant conduct yourself with a bit of decorum...keep outta the forum..simples....I dont like bullies...
and from your first posts here...I dont think I like you....

@ didge...I STILL find your logic as to the "rights " of animals to be flawed, however, as always you are entitled to your opinion...

You were 'expecting a load of nonsense ',you are getting to know me then   

I respect your views although I don't agree with them and thank you for respecting mine.I got a bit carried away with the 'mentally ill ' comment,it is because I rather naively assumed no one eats rabbit or that it was frowned upon to do so.

victorisnotamused wrote:

FluffyBunny wrote:

Quite,it's rather sad isn't it.

However I will address the point as I promised to do.I personally couldn't eat rabbit,I couldn't even eat duck.To me when I invisage rabbits,yes maybe naively I think of white fluffy angels in hutches.Sorry,I cannot help that as when I was a child I had several friends who had rabbits as pets.I can't imagine eating a rabbit.And no actually I do not eat lamb or veal.I eat fish and very very occasionaly chicken,but I can't call myself a vegetarian as I do consume fish.

I am ignorant of the problems that rabbits pose to the farming community,I intend to read the posts above and educate myself.But I still personally,couldn't possibly eat a rabbit.It's not something I could do.

well, i WAS going to roast you , since I was expecting a load of nonsense....

HOWEVER.....apart from your unnecessarily harsh comment about people who eat rabbit being mentally unwell, I actually respect what you are saying. A lot of our food preferences are dictated by "perceptions".  YOU perception obviously is different to mine and many others...however that does not make you wrong, nor does it make me wrong...

Knowing how you feel, If you were ever to be a guest of mine, I would not feed you rabbit (or lamb or veal).

@feroza....stick to the point of the post...and keep your nastiness out of it....If you cant conduct yourself with a bit of decorum...keep outta the forum..simples....I dont like bullies...
and from your first posts here...I dont think I like you....

@ didge...I STILL find your logic as to the "rights " of animals to be flawed, however, as always you are entitled to your opinion...

Well it might surprise you but I actually don't give a flying fk whether you like me or not,best stay out of my way then ...simples   

Feroza wrote:

victorisnotamused wrote:


well, i WAS going to roast you , since I was expecting a load of nonsense....

HOWEVER.....apart from your unnecessarily harsh comment about people who eat rabbit being mentally unwell, I actually respect what you are saying. A lot of our food preferences are dictated by "perceptions".  YOU perception obviously is different to mine and many others...however that does not make you wrong, nor does it make me wrong...

Knowing how you feel, If you were ever to be a guest of mine, I would not feed you rabbit (or lamb or veal).

@feroza....stick to the point of the post...and keep your nastiness out of it....If you cant conduct yourself with a bit of decorum...keep outta the forum..simples....I dont like bullies...
and from your first posts here...I dont think I like you....

@ didge...I STILL find your logic as to the "rights " of animals to be flawed, however, as always you are entitled to your opinion...

Well it might surprise you but I actually don't give a flying fk whether you like me or not,best stay out of my way then  ...simples   

Oh goody...a disposable plaything  

Well, I eat rabbit, wild rabbit, bought from my butcher.   I would rather eat them after they have been killed quickly by being shot than to have them re-introduce myxomatosis as they did before to keep the numbers down, when they die in agony and its spreads to pet rabbits.

They are an extremely low fat healthy meat, with all the nutrition of any other meat.

That being said, I have just come back from Spain, where I ate rabbit stew, thinking it was wild rabbit, so I'm not very happy to find out about this.