Let's Be Honest About Britain's Islamophobia

It's happening again. It never really goes away, but, for different reasons, it tends to come in periodic bursts.

What am I talking about? Britain's latest frenzy of Islamophobic incitement.

The familiar elements are all present. Demands for communal apologies, for explanations and justifications. Come on, the crowd shrieks, convince us that you belong here! Assure us that we're safe with you in our midst! Deny links to the Taliban, condemn Boko Haram, and publicly renounce Al-Qaeda for us all to see!

Just over a century ago, the Conservative MP for Stepney complained that East London was like "a foreign town", while his constituents' bishop warned that immigrants were "swamping whole areas once populated by English people". Then, it was the arrival of Jewish immigrants fleeing waves of anti-Semitic persecution in Russia and Eastern Europe - but the rhetoric and racism are familiar.

In 1901, a journalist wrote that the "island of aliens in the sea of English life...is growing", and "rule by foreign Jews is being set up". The same year saw the formation of a 'British Brothers League', who campaigned for changes to immigration law (remember, nothing racist about 'just' opposing immigration!). Another MP told the House of Commons in 1904 that the Hebrew and Yiddish language press "advocated...all kinds of revolutionary doctrines".

In a recent article in The Jewish Chronicle, a UKIP supporter dismissed any modern parallels with Jewish immigration in the early 20th century. He commented:

In Hendon, there are loads of women dressed in burkas. You feel like a foreigner in your own country, it's very uncomfortable. People might say the same about Jewish men with black hats and beards, but they don't go round blowing up British soldiers.
Make no mistake: the drip-drip bigotry of a thousand newspaper stories, speeches, and earnest demands for serious 'conversations' fed the rise of the EDL in our streets, and it has fed the rise of an 'anti-immigration' political party which allies with the far-right in a European parliament it purports to despise.

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/ben-white/islamophobia_b_5316409.html


As I say the same arguments have been going around from some people for many, many years.

The UKIP supporter also neglects that British soldiers were once blow up by Jewish radicals in Palestine.

Excellent article which shows again the same cultural pessimism can be seen time and time again, with exactly the same arguments, just different groups of people.

Excellent article

Hmmm Islam is making war on every continent  don't believe the Jews did.

Islam has problems with every religion bar Islam.

Islam doesn't seem to accept even basic values re womens rights.

Islam is trying to radicalise school children by secretly taking schools over. I don't see this being carried out by other religions.

I'm not accusing all Muslims of being terrorist but there are far too many who are and even more who whilst not active terrorist themselves have sympathy with those who are.

Liberals like yourself didge refuse to accept reality.

...these are extremists you describe Drinky, people who sadly ..have been brainwashed since childhood.

Alright said Fred wrote:Hmmm Islam is making war on every continent  don't believe the Jews did.
Incorrect, some extremist Muslims are making war vastly on many other Muslims, you see a poor view, promoting a view it is Muslims, when the vast majority of victims are Muslims

Islam has problems with every religion bar Islam.
Well as seen that is completely incorrect, the most violence going on is sectarian between Muslims themselves

Islam doesn't seem to accept even basic values re womens rights.
In some countries this true and others not so true at all  

Islam is trying to radicalise school children by secretly taking them over. I don't see this being carried out by other religions.
No some extremists are trying to radicalize children, just as we some people in many European countries try and radicalize people to far right views, again a fear tactic by both

I'm not accusing all Muslims of being terrorist but there are far too many who are and even more who whilst not active terrorist themselves have sympathy with those who are.
You just did

Liberals like yourself didge refuse to accept reality.

Well that makes Cameron and many Tories a liberal then, I do not accept poor arguments made off the back of what some people do to collectively fear people when you ignore countless history showing the same happens with any within religion, by your view we should fear all religions, because it has always had extremists. Thus your argument would be to be against all religion or none because they are all exploited and have always been exploited by extremists

JD I think there are far more radicals in our country home born and taught than most think.

I would love to believe they are all as wonderful as SM but unfortunately they are not.

gerber wrote:JD I think there are far more radicals in our country home born and taught than most think.

I would love to believe they are all as wonderful as SM but unfortunately they are not.

There are a few radicals and also proponents of Salafism, though again a minority, does that then mean we not tackle this problem itself or do we use it as a means to make people sacred and fear all Muslims as is seen daily Gerber?
If we took your view, you should have the same issue, with all kinds of problems, from those committing rape, domestic violence, child abuse to use the same fear to promote of all men say, does it work that way though Gerber?
No, it shows the complete poor arguments presented, we do need to tackle extremism, one of the worst problems was placing all the convicted terrorists into separate prisons who radicalise many of the other Muslims, that was poor policy, when they should have placed all the bad eggs in one basket

gerber wrote:JD I think there are far more radicals in our country home born and taught than most think.

I would love to believe they are all as wonderful as SM but unfortunately they are not.

I agree Gerbs, there definitely are so we with a terrorist mindset both born and bred here..I often wonder if there are any future home attacks planned.

But then I think Gerbs,,,there are definitely more normal Muslims than of those who wish to harm us and others..

Otherwise we would be in a lot of trouble.

Alright said Fred wrote:Hmmm Islam is making war on every continent  don't believe the Jews did.

Islam has problems with every religion bar Islam.

Islam doesn't seem to accept even basic values re womens rights.

Islam is trying to radicalise school children by secretly taking schools over. I don't see this being carried out by other religions.

I'm not accusing all Muslims of being terrorist but there are far too many who are and even more who whilst not active terrorist themselves have sympathy with those who are.

Liberals like yourself didge refuse to accept reality.

spot on

I didn't actually Didge but after 9/11 it was estimated 10% of Muslims in the UK had sympathies with the Terrorist. That's 200,000.
That's an awful lot of dodgy people. Would you like one of the radicals loading the plane you are about to travel on?

In Palestine after 9/11 they danced in the streets en masse.

When the moderates rise up against the extremists I'll change my mind. Liberals apologist like yourself wont, you are just deluded,

Vicar of Dibley wrote:

Alright said Fred wrote:Hmmm Islam is making war on every continent  don't believe the Jews did.

Islam has problems with every religion bar Islam.

Islam doesn't seem to accept even basic values re womens rights.

Islam is trying to radicalise school children by secretly taking schools over. I don't see this being carried out by other religions.

I'm not accusing all Muslims of being terrorist but there are far too many who are and even more who whilst not active terrorist themselves have sympathy with those who are.

Liberals like yourself didge refuse to accept reality.

spot on

As seen it was poor, based on fear and very incorrect on information

Joy Division wrote:

gerber wrote:JD I think there are far more radicals in our country home born and taught than most think.

I would love to believe they are all as wonderful as SM but unfortunately they are not.

I agree Gerbs, there definitely are so we with a terrorist mindset both born and bred here..I often wonder if there are any future home attacks planned.

But then I think Gerbs,,,there are definitely more normal Muslims than of those who wish to harm us and others..

Otherwise we would be in a lot of trouble.

I totally agree but the are the silent majority. Not many voice derision and even fewer who know who the radicals are will admit it and even fewer still will let the authorities know.

IMO that is why a large number in our Country dislike / distrust all Muslims and tar them with the same brush which adds to the animosity................ A never ending circle

Alright said Fred wrote:I didn't actually Didge but after 9/11 it was estimated 10% of Muslims in the UK had sympathies with the Terrorist. That's 200,000.
That's an awful lot of dodgy people. Would you like one of the radicals loading the plane you are about to travel on?

In Palestine after 9/11 they danced in the streets en masse.

When the moderates rise up against the extremists I'll change my mind. Liberals apologist like yourself wont, you are just deluded,

So by your view 200,000 which I do not believe in any shape or form as you are I know very well taking the question asked out of context, still does not mean you can then take the other 2.5 million Muslims who do not to then form a poor prejudice view against them, you are making them irrationally culpable for the rest and that is plainly absurd.
Again promoting fear to promote an irrationally based argument, you deal with the radicals, not make all Muslims culpable.
So some Palestinians danced in the street out of 1,5 billion Muslims and that is now your argument to claim against all 1.5 billion of them as poor as those who did was who were also condemned by Muslims for doing so?

Seriously let me know when you have something credible to argue with

What do you make of this Poll then Drinky?




Check out the results of the poll here and here.  Here are the more pertinent results in bar graph form:
And:




Now, let’s exactly duplicate Klein’s alarmist and one-sided interpretation.

24% of non-Muslim Americans refused to rule out the targeting of civilians in all circumstances.  Estimates of the adult (over 18) U.S. population are 175,000,000 people.  That means that 4,200,000 non-Muslim Americans would consider the targeted killing of civilians by individuals could sometimes be justified.

Alright said Fred wrote:I didn't actually Didge but after 9/11 it was estimated 10% of Muslims in the UK had sympathies with the Terrorist. That's 200,000.
That's an awful lot of dodgy people. Would you like one of the radicals loading the plane you are about to travel on?

In Palestine after 9/11 they danced in the streets en masse.

When the moderates rise up against the extremists I'll change my mind. Liberals apologist like yourself wont, you are just deluded,

spot on again

Vicar of Dibley wrote:

Alright said Fred wrote:I didn't actually Didge but after 9/11 it was estimated 10% of Muslims in the UK had sympathies with the Terrorist. That's 200,000.
That's an awful lot of dodgy people. Would you like one of the radicals loading the plane you are about to travel on?

In Palestine after 9/11 they danced in the streets en masse.

When the moderates rise up against the extremists I'll change my mind. Liberals apologist like yourself wont, you are just deluded,

spot on again

As seen it was poor, is nice you can agree with people, better if you can back their views with credible arguments

Good luck

Didge wrote:

Vicar of Dibley wrote:

spot on

As seen it was poor, based on fear and very incorrect on information

to you maybe but to me its spot on

Didge wrote:

Vicar of Dibley wrote:

spot on again

As seen it was poor, is nice you can agree with people, better if you can back their views with credible arguments

Good luck

its spot on and very accurately stated in my opinion

quisle quisle

Didge wrote:

Alright said Fred wrote:I didn't actually Didge but after 9/11 it was estimated 10% of Muslims in the UK had sympathies with the Terrorist. That's 200,000.
That's an awful lot of dodgy people. Would you like one of the radicals loading the plane you are about to travel on?

In Palestine after 9/11 they danced in the streets en masse.

When the moderates rise up against the extremists I'll change my mind. Liberals apologist like yourself wont, you are just deluded,

So by your view 200,000 which I do not believe in any shape or form as you are I know very well taking the question asked out of context, still does not mean you can then take the other 2.5 million Muslims who do not to then form a poor prejudice view against them, you are making them irrationally culpable for the rest and that is plainly absurd.
Again promoting fear to promote an irrationally based argument, you deal with the radicals, not make all Muslims culpable.
So some Palestinians danced in the street out of 1,5 billion Muslims and that is now your argument to claim against all 1.5 billion of them as poor as those who did was who were also condemned by Muslims for doing so?

Seriously let me know when you have something credible to argue with

I think at least 10% of Aussies had sympathy with the terrorist too.... anyone that has had a more powerful nation impose on them can sympathise with WHY Middle Eastern Muslims can be turned into extremists.

It not that it is justified but it is understandable   

so Veya.....you can "see where they are comming from "? can you, you can "understand their frustration and anger"???

victorisnotamused wrote:so Veya.....you can "see where they are comming from "? can you, you can "understand their frustration and anger"???

yeah I would think anyone could appreciate that the USA has been not been operating in a very honourable fashion in that part of the world for a rather long time....
Keep in mind the USA put both Saddam and the Taliban in power. how many corrupt dictators have been kept in power because they were willing to sell their nation to US interests?


We know we got off very lightly(partly due to the existing similarities) when it comes to the cultural incursion of the USA. but even then there are dozens of things that the US does that piss Aussies off....
Like the fucking bought Vegemite so now they make a profit every time an Aussie buys their National spread.               


Like I said the action was not justified but I think a reasonable person can at least see the factors that preceded the event.

Funny that y'know veya....

You can understand the "frustrations" that drive maniacs into killing 1000's of innocent victims....

and i BET no-one One HERE BITES YOUR ASS FOR IT.

and yet......strangely enough ...another poster said something similar about an issue a few years back and was savaged FOR EXACTLY THE SAME THING....

doubtless the fact that YOU a "progressive" say it about terrorists makes it acceptable
and the fact the other poster is a R/W er made his post oh so terrible.....

Didge wrote:It's happening again. It never really goes away, but, for different reasons, it tends to come in periodic bursts.

What am I talking about? Britain's latest frenzy of Islamophobic incitement.

The familiar elements are all present. Demands for communal apologies, for explanations and justifications. Come on, the crowd shrieks, convince us that you belong here! Assure us that we're safe with you in our midst! Deny links to the Taliban, condemn Boko Haram, and publicly renounce Al-Qaeda for us all to see!

Just over a century ago, the Conservative MP for Stepney complained that East London was like "a foreign town", while his constituents' bishop warned that immigrants were "swamping whole areas once populated by English people". Then, it was the arrival of Jewish immigrants fleeing waves of anti-Semitic persecution in Russia and Eastern Europe - but the rhetoric and racism are familiar.

In 1901, a journalist wrote that the "island of aliens in the sea of English life...is growing", and "rule by foreign Jews is being set up". The same year saw the formation of a 'British Brothers League', who campaigned for changes to immigration law (remember, nothing racist about 'just' opposing immigration!). Another MP told the House of Commons in 1904 that the Hebrew and Yiddish language press "advocated...all kinds of revolutionary doctrines".

In a recent article in The Jewish Chronicle, a UKIP supporter dismissed any modern parallels with Jewish immigration in the early 20th century. He commented:

In Hendon, there are loads of women dressed in burkas. You feel like a foreigner in your own country, it's very uncomfortable. People might say the same about Jewish men with black hats and beards, but they don't go round blowing up British soldiers.
Make no mistake: the drip-drip bigotry of a thousand newspaper stories, speeches, and earnest demands for serious 'conversations' fed the rise of the EDL in our streets, and it has fed the rise of an 'anti-immigration' political party which allies with the far-right in a European parliament it purports to despise.

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/ben-white/islamophobia_b_5316409.html


As I say the same arguments have been going around from some people for many, many years.

The UKIP supporter also neglects that British soldiers were once blow up by Jewish radicals in Palestine.

Excellent article which shows again the same cultural pessimism can be seen time and time again, with exactly the same arguments, just different groups of people.

Excellent article  

They can deny it all they like. Jewish radicals blew up British soldiers and civilians when the planted a bomb and blew up the King David hotel killing and maiming hundreds. They also murdered 2 British marines and hung their bodies up in an orchard and booby trapped their bodies so as to kill anyone who tried to cut them down.

They erected a plaque at the King David hotel just a few years back to commemorate the bombing of the hotel despite objections from the British government in doing so.

They were terrorists who went on to form the government of Israel.

victorisnotamused wrote:Funny that y'know veya....

You can understand the "frustrations" that drive maniacs into killing 1000's of innocent victims....

and i BET no-one One HERE BITES YOUR ASS FOR IT.

and yet......strangely enough ...another poster said something similar about an issue a few years back and was savaged FOR EXACTLY THE SAME THING....

doubtless the fact that YOU a "progressive" say it about terrorists makes it acceptable
and the fact the other poster is a R/W er made his post oh so terrible.....

Yes but do make it pretty obvious I don't give a fuck         a few years a go when i said things like that people would attack me    it is true and i will say what i think is true         

Didge there is no arguing with militant Islam is at war with everyone on every continent.

Yes it is at war with itself as well the two factions within that devil of a religion but as for its ability to make friends it has less of that than Sassy has numeric skills.i.e. ZERO

The figures of 10% of Muslims declaring sympathy with the terrorist were extrapolated from surveys at the time and were considered conservative and in no way exaggerated.

Islam represents a huge problem and is almost solely responsible for most of the anti terrorist activity of every state security services.

My point is and I shall repeat it so it might get through your Liberal skull is that the 90% of so called moderates are no doing enough to stamp out the militancy in their ranks. They put religion before country, a bad Muslim before a good Christian (substitute an other religion for Christian) and that makes it difficult for the security services to know who to trust.

You liberal lefties even decry more targeted searches at airports preferring to waste security officer time on searching blue rinse old ladies so as not to breach PC considerations.

Of the terrorist activity in the last ten years remind me how much was initiated by Muslims. Shall we say at least 90%. I rest my case.

I have stopped debating a bit because my feelings have.. changed a bit and I don't know where I stand.

I always wanted to be tolerant and accepting and  thought Muslims brought a different culture to the UK which could only be for the good.

But those poor girls this week..and the misogyny that is rife within Islamic culture,why do they want to keep women repressed and uneducated? I just can't reconcile with that pov.

I know moderate Muslims don't think this way but it is not just a diluted view of the same repression? Moderate muslim women still have to wear sheets with gauze for eyes.

FluffyBunny wrote:I have stopped debating a bit because my feelings have.. changed a bit and I don't know where I stand.

I always wanted to be tolerant and accepting and  thought Muslims brought a different culture to the UK which could only be for the good.

But those poor girls this week..and the misogyny that is rife within Islamic culture,why do they want to keep women repressed and uneducated? I just can't reconcile with that pov.

I know moderate Muslims don't think this way but it is not just a diluted view of the same repression? Moderate muslim women still have to wear sheets with gauze for eyes.

Indeed they do I find it amazing that lefties on the one hand will call someone a misogynist and rightly decry them but are blind to the misogyny rife within Islam. That rather underlines the double standards though.

Alright said Fred wrote:Didge there is no arguing with militant Islam is at war with everyone on every continent.

Yes it is at war with itself as well the two factions within that devil of a religion but as for its ability to make friends it has less of that than Sassy has numeric skills.i.e. ZERO

The figures of 10% of Muslims declaring sympathy with the terrorist were extrapolated from surveys at the time and were considered conservative and in no way exaggerated.

Islam represents a huge problem and is almost solely responsible for most of the anti terrorist activity of every state security services.

My point is and I shall repeat it so it might get through your Liberal skull is that the 90% of so called moderates are no doing enough to stamp out the militancy in their ranks. They put religion before country, a bad Muslim before a good Christian (substitute an other religion for Christian) and that makes it difficult for the security services to know who to trust.

You liberal lefties even decry more targeted searches at airports preferring to waste security officer time on searching blue rinse old ladies so as not to breach PC considerations.

Of the terrorist activity in the last ten years remind me how much was initiated by Muslims. Shall we say at least 90%. I rest my case.

Never heard so much fear based babble in all my life expecting people to take in so much bullshit.
So by your argument, the Irish people were culpable for not doing enough with the IRA, even though many had nothing to do with it just as many Muslims have nothing to do with it. That is am illogical argument to claim culpability to millions of people who are in fact fighting and dying daily against extremists in numbers who cannot even comprehend.

The fact is it has been western policy that has driven the increase in the rise of Muslims driven to extremism, where again to a Muslim a drone attack that kills civilians would also be seen as terrorism, as I am sure if you had drone attacks here to oust terrorists, that killed civilians you would be saying the same thing and as seen many people do not have a problem with civilians being killed to get terrorists. It has been concluded that the whole Iraq war has driven extremism in this country but you are not even concerned over that, you wish to promote an absurd view over Islam, when in every Terrorist action the causes behind them have been over events, like troops in Ira for example, deaths to civilians etc showing you have not the first clue understanding what creates terrorism in the first place, you only see through your eyes of hatred.
It is down to many Muslims to tackle extremism, but it is very much something that the West has very much increased those to their cause with their policies.  

The fact that all religions put their country before shows even more you know nothing also of religion, you though have no issue there because they are Christian though Christians have been committing do much violence through history where religion rules. So it is not religions that are the problem but people themselves and policies showing again you need to present something that is viable, not something that has no credibility or the first clue you know what you are talking about because as seen you do not

So let me ask you Drinky, how would you feel about an occupying force of Saudi's being stationed here to deal with civil discord and to deal with the Real IRA, would you be happy about those and would you be happy that because of their actions there is civilian casualties through their military operations?

Didge where do you stand on the misogyny in Islam? The 'honor killings 'in THIS country where young western modern Muslim women are on a collision course with the beliefs and expectations of their family?

What about the women who are forced to wear the Burqa in this country,(I know some wish to wear it and it is their choice but this is not true for all Muslim ladies) It is a sheet,it is a symbol of repression and control and it is impractical.Women in this so called civilised day and age should not be forced to wear sheets on the basis that a man may glance in their direction.

Why is it the basis of Islam that women should not be educated??Are men in fear of women?Is that the reason? Look at that poor girl who was shot simply for daring to want to go to school,to learn and educate herself.I know that is an extreme case but I find the attitude towards women deeply distressing and I'm not sure if it has any basis in religion at all.

I wonder if the Koran is not manipulated by men in order to control women.It seems apparent that controlling women seems to be at the core of this religion.

FluffyBunny wrote:Didge where do you stand on the misogyny in Islam? The 'honor killings 'in THIS country where young western modern Muslim women are on a collision course with the beliefs and expectations of their family?
Honor killing has nothing to do with Islam, it is way older than Islam in itself. Yes there is  problems, but you do not manage problems by instigating all within that problem, what you do as has being going on is change perceptions, which if this had not happened there would be no Muslim women that are different?  

What about the women who are forced to wear the Burqa in this country,(I know some wish to wear it and it is their choice but this is not true for all Muslim ladies) It is a sheet,it is a symbol of repression and control and it is impractical.Women in this so called civilised day and age should not be forced to wear sheets on the basis that a man may glance in their direction.
Really forced to wear? Again nobody should be forced to wear anything the amount of women that wear this is so small it is a something that again Muslims should teach is not part of Islam,  but you are again using a small amount of Muslims to promote a view of a claim to a much bigger problem which does not tally up to your claims. What about those who wish to wear, being as your are all for women's rights, why do you not back those who chose to have the right to wear one? You go off what you call as civilized, but to some women who wear this, it has nothing to do with anything more than showing respect to their faith, their choice, even if I think myself it is not good for communication. You do not though use something so small as to promote a poor argument what you do is teach and show a more approachable to way to help bring about change, as forcing people to change, has the opposite affect 

Why is it the basis of Islam that women should not be educated??Are men in fear of women?Is that the reason? Look at that poor girl who was shot simply for daring to want to go to school,to learn and educate herself.I know that is an extreme case but I find the attitude towards women deeply distressing and I'm not sure if it has any basis in religion at all.
Women should be educated, and in fact many Muslim women are, only in Nigeria with this extremist group and the Taliban are the ones that disagree and many Muslim women and men die fighting for their right to be educated, so again you should be standing behind these Muslims who want freedom of education 

I wonder if the Koran is not manipulated by men in order to control women.It seems apparent that controlling women seems to be at the core of this religion.

All religion is manipulated by men, have you read the Bible? The Torah or the Quran, women all are created second and seen as second to men, women are blamed for many problems, the first sin for example and countless other acts and in this country alone women are still fighting equality off the back of Christian teachings where the Christian faith is very much derived from the teachings of Paul who was very anti women

Didge wrote:

FluffyBunny wrote:Didge where do you stand on the misogyny in Islam? The 'honor killings 'in THIS country where young western modern Muslim women are on a collision course with the beliefs and expectations of their family?
Honor killing has nothing to do with Islam, it is way older than Islam in itself. Yes there is  problems, but you do not manage problems by instigating all within that problem, what you do as has being going on is change perceptions, which if this had not happened there would be no Muslim women that are different?  

What about the women who are forced to wear the Burqa in this country,(I know some wish to wear it and it is their choice but this is not true for all Muslim ladies) It is a sheet,it is a symbol of repression and control and it is impractical.Women in this so called civilised day and age should not be forced to wear sheets on the basis that a man may glance in their direction.
Really forced to wear? Again nobody should be forced to wear anything the amount of women that wear this is so small it is a something that again Muslims should teach is not part of Islam,  but you are again using a small amount of Muslims to promote a view of a claim to a much bigger problem which does not tally up to your claims. What about those who wish to wear, being as your are all for women's rights, why do you not back those who chose to have the right to wear one? You go off what you call as civilized, but to some women who wear this, it has nothing to do with anything more than showing respect to their faith, their choice, even if I think myself it is not good for communication. You do not though use something so small as to promote a poor argument what you do is teach and show a more approachable to way to help bring about change, as forcing people to change, has the opposite affect 

Why is it the basis of Islam that women should not be educated??Are men in fear of women?Is that the reason? Look at that poor girl who was shot simply for daring to want to go to school,to learn and educate herself.I know that is an extreme case but I find the attitude towards women deeply distressing and I'm not sure if it has any basis in religion at all.
Women should be educated, and in fact many Muslim women are, only in Nigeria with this extremist group and the Taliban are the ones that disagree and many Muslim women and men die fighting for their right to be educated, so again you should be standing behind these Muslims who want freedom of education 

I wonder if the Koran is not manipulated by men in order to control women.It seems apparent that controlling women seems to be at the core of this religion.

All religion is manipulated by men, have you read the Bible? The Torah or the Quran, women all are created second and seen as second to men, women are blamed for many problems, the first sin for example and countless other acts and in this country alone women are still fighting equality off the back of Christian teachings where the Christian faith is very much derived from the teachings of Paul who was very anti women

I concede with everything you say except your first point. If honor killings has nothing to do with Islam why does it only occur in Islam?

Islamic older gentlemen are very open about how they feel women who 'shame the family'( by not getting married to a chosen suitor usually) should be dealt with.

You have to accept honor killings ARE a generation problem that exists in Islamic culture.And these young girls live in fear of their family.

Lets not forget the FGM too which islam demand their women and young girls have done .

Vicar of Dibley wrote:Lets not forget the FGM too which islam demand their women and young girls have done .

Another valid point.That is a savage practice with only one purpose,to deny a female sexual pleasure.It is barbaric.

I WANT to be accepting of Islam,but it's hard to ignore these examples of female abuse.

I would like to know what other Left Wing folk apart from Didge think.

FluffyBunny wrote:I have stopped debating a bit because my feelings have.. changed a bit and I don't know where I stand.

I always wanted to be tolerant and accepting and  thought Muslims brought a different culture to the UK which could only be for the good.

But those poor girls this week..and the misogyny that is rife within Islamic culture,why do they want to keep women repressed and uneducated? I just can't reconcile with that pov.

I know moderate Muslims don't think this way but it is not just a diluted view of the same repression? Moderate muslim women still have to wear sheets with gauze for eyes.

My parents neighbours are muslim , the wife doesn't wear any head covering she has beautiful hair and is proud of it which she should be , she wears normal clothes , they have two gorgeous daughters who are dressed like other little girls with pretty hair bands , they even celebrate christmas and send out cards and receive them .these i admire it is the ,it is the muslims who walk about like darth varders that are basically sticking two fingers up at us that piss me off big time .

Vicar of Dibley wrote:

FluffyBunny wrote:I have stopped debating a bit because my feelings have.. changed a bit and I don't know where I stand.

I always wanted to be tolerant and accepting and  thought Muslims brought a different culture to the UK which could only be for the good.

But those poor girls this week..and the misogyny that is rife within Islamic culture,why do they want to keep women repressed and uneducated? I just can't reconcile with that pov.

I know moderate Muslims don't think this way but it is not just a diluted view of the same repression? Moderate muslim women still have to wear sheets with gauze for eyes.

My parents neighbours are muslim , the wife doesn't wear any head covering she has beautiful hair and is proud of it which she should be , she wears normal clothes , they have two gorgeous daughters who are dressed like other little girls with pretty hair bands , they even celebrate christmas and send out cards and receive them .these i admire it is the ,it is the muslims who walk about like darth varders that are basically sticking two fingers up at us that piss me off big time .

I agree with you completely Mrs Vicar.

I don't have any problem with moderate muslims,infact I didn't have any problems with Muslims at all until recently but the treatment of women within the more extreme aspects of the culture cannot be denied.

FluffyBunny wrote:

Vicar of Dibley wrote:Lets not forget the FGM too which islam demand their women and young girls have done .

Another valid point.That is a savage practice with only one purpose,to deny a female sexual pleasure.It is barbaric.

I WANT to be accepting of Islam,but it's hard to ignore these examples of female abuse.

I would like to know what other Left Wing folk apart from Didge think.

...I agree some Islamic women are treated horrendously and live so oppressed...I really hate hearing of women being treated as such, and some of being stoned to death for affairs.

Sadly in some parts ,mIslamic life is only good if your a man, there is just no excuse how some men treat their women.

Monsters.

Just to be clear, FGM started in Africa, long before Islam and it is more prevalent in Africa and African culture (including Christian) than anywhere else. It is cultural, not religious. If you are worried about it, and what woman would not be, join Women for Wormen and help to combat it.

Honour killings are unfortuntely cultural as well, and you hear a lot of them amongst Indian Hindus and Sikhs.

Women for Women fight them as well.

Joy Division wrote:

FluffyBunny wrote:

Vicar of Dibley wrote:Lets not forget the FGM too which islam demand their women and young girls have done .

Another valid point.That is a savage practice with only one purpose,to deny a female sexual pleasure.It is barbaric.

I WANT to be accepting of Islam,but it's hard to ignore these examples of female abuse.

I would like to know what other Left Wing folk apart from Didge think.

...I agree some Islamic  women are treated horrendously and live so oppressed...I really hate hearing of women being treated as such, and some of being stoned to death for affairs.

Sadly in some parts ,mIslamic life is only good if your a man, there is just no excuse how some men treat their women.

Monsters.

Some of that is due to local/cultural tradition not religious tradition. You will find it is pretty much all concentrated around Muslim north Africa and the western middle east. It is not like that in amongst oriental(Asian) Muslims

FluffyBunny wrote:

Didge wrote:

All religion is manipulated by men, have you read the Bible? The Torah or the Quran, women all are created second and seen as second to men, women are blamed for many problems, the first sin for example and countless other acts and in this country alone women are still fighting equality off the back of Christian teachings where the Christian faith is very much derived from the teachings of Paul who was very anti women

I concede with everything you say except your first point. If honor killings has nothing to do with Islam why does it only occur in Islam?

Islamic older gentlemen are very open about how they feel women who 'shame the family'( by not getting married to a  chosen suitor usually) should be dealt with.

You have to accept honor killings ARE a generation problem that exists in Islamic culture.And these young girls live in fear of their family.

Hi Fluffy

It is based around a caste system and is a cultural problem in parts of the world.
Here you can read much here about the history and today's problems


http://hbv-awareness.com/

Sassy wrote:Just to be clear, FGM started in Africa, long before Islam and it is more prevalent in Africa and African culture (including Christian) than anywhere else.  It is cultural, not religious.   If you are worried about it, and what woman would not be, join Women for Wormen and help to combat it.  

Honour killings are unfortuntely cultural as well, and you hear a lot of them amongst Indian Hindus and Sikhs.

Women for Women fight them as well.

Sassy,it was in the news only a few weeks ago that British Muslim girls were being sent abroad to have FGM and as a result the police were watching the flights and helplines were being set up etc.

I do want to help but we have to stop pretending that these barbaric practices are only occuring elsewhere in deepest darkest Africa. It is happening to young ladies in this country NOW.We have to admit that there is a deeply misogynistic side to Islam that is destructive and often fatal for the young women it targets.

FluffyBunny wrote:

Sassy wrote:Just to be clear, FGM started in Africa, long before Islam and it is more prevalent in Africa and African culture (including Christian) than anywhere else.  It is cultural, not religious.   If you are worried about it, and what woman would not be, join Women for Wormen and help to combat it.  

Honour killings are unfortuntely cultural as well, and you hear a lot of them amongst Indian Hindus and Sikhs.

Women for Women fight them as well.

Sassy,it was in the news only a few weeks ago that British Muslim girls were being sent abroad to have FGM and as a result the police were watching the flights and helplines were being set up etc.

I do want to help but we have to stop pretending that these barbaric practices are only occuring elsewhere in deepest darkest Africa. It is happening to young ladies in this country NOW.We have to admit that there is a deeply misogynistic side to Islam that is destructive and often fatal for the young women it targets.

I never said they only happen in Africa, I said they originate from Africa and are a large problem there.   The FGM that is happening to muslim girls is not because of Islam, it is because of culture, FGM is not Islamic.   British girls with African origin are being sent back to Africa as well.  

Read the World Health Organisation's report, it is concentrated in Africa and the Middle East:

http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs241/en/

FluffyBunny wrote:

Sassy wrote:Just to be clear, FGM started in Africa, long before Islam and it is more prevalent in Africa and African culture (including Christian) than anywhere else.  It is cultural, not religious.   If you are worried about it, and what woman would not be, join Women for Wormen and help to combat it.  

Honour killings are unfortuntely cultural as well, and you hear a lot of them amongst Indian Hindus and Sikhs.

Women for Women fight them as well.

Sassy,it was in the news only a few weeks ago that British Muslim girls were being sent abroad to have FGM and as a result the police were watching the flights and helplines were being set up etc.

I do want to help but we have to stop pretending that these barbaric practices are only occuring elsewhere in deepest darkest Africa. It is happening to young ladies in this country NOW.We have to admit that there is a deeply misogynistic side to Islam that is destructive and often fatal for the young women it targets.

african christians do still do FGM but like sassy said it is a cultural thing but muslims do it because Mo said it needs doing there is a video on youtube explaining that it is only a the top of the clitoris or the skin that is cut , but why cut anything it is barbaric

I don't usually comment on racist issues, but people who say it's only a few forget the old saying "One bad apple will spoil the whole darn bunch"

Well if Islam is opposed to it as this gentleman suggests and I accept,then why does he turn around and say he allows it??

That video has educated me though,I appreciate it. I was blaming Muslims alone and I stand corrected.

However I do think that if Islam is deeply opposed then they should be trying harder to stamp it out.