Half Of Foreign Doctors Not Up To NHS Standards

by Guest Fri Apr 18, 2014 1:17 pm

18th April 2014

They finally listen to BigAndy9!

Half of all foreign doctors in Britain do not have the necessary skills to work here but can practise because the competency exam is too easy, a major study finds.

The majority of the 88,000 foreign doctors in the health service would fail exams if they were held to the same standard as their British colleagues, according to the research.

The disclosure will add to concerns over the reliance of the NHS on foreign doctors. The language ability of some has been questioned in recent years. The research potentially shows more wide-ranging inadequacies. Around 1,300 foreign physicians are licensed each year by the General Medical Council after passing an exam which assesses clinical and language skills.

But the study, commissioned by the GMC and carried out by University College London, found that around half would fail to reach the standards expected of British doctors. Its authors have called for the pass rate of the competency exam to be raised from 63 to 76 per cent to “ensure patient safety”.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/nhs/10773857/Half-of-foreign-doctors-are-below-British-standards.html

by Guest Fri Apr 18, 2014 1:32 pm

Do they?

What is this about?

A pass mark, that is all it is and to top it off this shows no matter the pass mark 249 were trained here and obtained this pass marks, showing, that even if people obtain this mark, people still fall foul and make errors

Figures from 2012 showed that of 669 doctors who were struck off or suspended in the previous five years, 420 had trained abroad.

By all means lift the pass rate, it by no means many of the foreign doctors are not fit to practice.

by Guest Fri Apr 18, 2014 1:58 pm

Didge wrote:Do they?

What is this about?

A pass mark, that is all it is and to top it off this shows no matter the pass mark 249 were trained here and obtained this pass marks, showing, that even if people obtain this mark, people still fall foul and make errors

Figures from 2012 showed that of 669 doctors who were struck off or suspended in the previous five years, 420 had trained abroad.

By all means lift the pass rate, it by no means many of the foreign doctors are not fit to practice.

So what does it mean then?

by Guest Fri Apr 18, 2014 2:02 pm

Tesstacious wrote:
Didge wrote:Do they?

What is this about?

A pass mark, that is all it is and to top it off this shows no matter the pass mark 249 were trained here and obtained this pass marks, showing, that even if people obtain this mark, people still fall foul and make errors

Figures from 2012 showed that of 669 doctors who were struck off or suspended in the previous five years, 420 had trained abroad.

By all means lift the pass rate, it by no means many of the foreign doctors are not fit to practice.

So what does it mean then?

It means there is a difference around the world as to what pass mark there is for Doctors, I would be interested to see a list of countries to be honest to gain a comparison

by Guest Fri Apr 18, 2014 7:11 pm

Didge wrote:
Tesstacious wrote:

So what does it mean then?

It means there is a difference around the world as to what pass mark there is for Doctors, I would be interested to see a list of countries to be honest to gain a comparison

No didge, what matters is OUR pass mark - all doctors should be able to attain it. In fact they should attain it before working here.

Other countries? Who cares?!

by Guest Fri Apr 18, 2014 7:15 pm

BigAndy9 wrote:
Didge wrote:

It means there is a difference around the world as to what pass mark there is for Doctors, I would be interested to see a list of countries to be honest to gain a comparison

No didge, what matters is OUR pass mark - all doctors should be able to attain it. In fact they should attain it before working here.

Other countries? Who cares?!

Really why does it matter, when many save countless lives?
Again why is it other nations have a less sterner pass mark than we do?
Going off what you perceive is no methodology to say what is fair to pass, especially if you use 400 out of 80,000 plus who have fallen foul as an example

by Guest Fri Apr 18, 2014 9:24 pm

Didge wrote:Do they?

What is this about?

A pass mark, that is all it is and to top it off this shows no matter the pass mark 249 were trained here and obtained this pass marks, showing, that even if people obtain this mark, people still fall foul and make errors

Figures from 2012 showed that of 669 doctors who were struck off or suspended in the previous five years, 420 had trained abroad.

So 2/3rds...66% of those struck off were foreign trained???..kinda says it all doesnt it....

I wonder what the %age of foreign doctors in the whole "pool" of doctors is? now THAT would be revealing....

By all means lift the pass rate, it by no means many of the foreign doctors are not fit to practice.

by Guest Sat Apr 19, 2014 11:18 am

Didge wrote:
BigAndy9 wrote:

No didge, what matters is OUR pass mark - all doctors should be able to attain it. In fact they should attain it before working here.

Other countries? Who cares?!

Really why does it matter, when many save countless lives?
Again why is it other nations have a less sterner pass mark than we do?
Going off what you perceive is no methodology to say what is fair to pass, especially if you use 400 out of 80,000 plus who have fallen foul as an example

Absolutely incredible statement didge.

by Guest Sat Apr 19, 2014 11:23 am

BigAndy9 wrote:
Didge wrote:

Really why does it matter, when many save countless lives?
Again why is it other nations have a less sterner pass mark than we do?
Going off what you perceive is no methodology to say what is fair to pass, especially if you use 400 out of 80,000 plus who have fallen foul as an example

Absolutely incredible statement didge.

Indeed it was, so thanks

by Guest Sat Apr 19, 2014 11:25 am

victorisnotamused wrote:
Didge wrote:Do they?

What is this about?

A pass mark, that is all it is and to top it off this shows no matter the pass mark 249 were trained here and obtained this pass marks, showing, that even if people obtain this mark, people still fall foul and make errors

Figures from 2012 showed that of 669 doctors who were struck off or suspended in the previous five years, 420 had trained abroad.

So 2/3rds...66% of those struck off were foreign trained???..kinda says it all doesnt it....

I wonder what the %age of foreign doctors in the whole "pool" of doctors is? now THAT would be revealing....

By all means lift the pass rate, it by no means many of the foreign doctors are not fit to practice.

One third are foreign, but again how few have been struck off, and again what pass rate do other nations have, which is important, for example what is America, France and Australia?

by Guest Sat Apr 19, 2014 12:41 pm

BigAndy9 wrote:18th April 2014

They finally listen to BigAndy9!

Half of all foreign doctors in Britain do not have the necessary skills to work here but can practise because the competency exam is too easy, a major study finds.

The majority of the 88,000 foreign doctors in the health service would fail exams if they were held to the same standard as their British colleagues, according to the research.

The disclosure will add to concerns over the reliance of the NHS on foreign doctors. The language ability of some has been questioned in recent years. The research potentially shows more wide-ranging inadequacies. Around 1,300 foreign physicians are licensed each year by the General Medical Council after passing an exam which assesses clinical and language skills.

But the study, commissioned by the GMC and carried out by University College London, found that around half would fail to reach the standards expected of British doctors. Its authors have called for the pass rate of the competency exam to be raised from 63 to 76 per cent to “ensure patient safety”.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/nhs/10773857/Half-of-foreign-doctors-are-below-British-standards.html

Why dont they have to be the same standard as British doctors?

by captain Sat Apr 19, 2014 1:27 pm

What standards is that?

Looking back today and the little I do know about health, of all the doctors I have ever dealt with (over ten from memory and more with locum doctors) only three had any form of true understanding of their patients health. Health is tricky thing anyway, as there are so many symptoms that can point you into many different directions. Of the good doctors I came across, they would admit this and instead of acting like an almighty great god, they would say something like, "we can try this but everything is still only under trail." I really trusted one doctor above all for his honesty.

So maybe these foreign doctors are not trained so well, but give all GP's in UK some tests. Maybe they do have to retake tests on a regular basis, but if not, then I think they should under go new training and testing every few years to maintain their competence.

by captain Sat Apr 19, 2014 1:31 pm

Going slightly off topic.

My friend, was seen by a foreign dentist and said he was the best dentist he had ever come across in his lifetime. This dentist was made to leave the practice, I think two years ago.

by Guest Sat Apr 19, 2014 8:18 pm

Didge wrote:
victorisnotamused wrote:

One third are foreign, but again how few have been struck off, and again what pass rate do other nations have, which is important, for example what is America, France and Australia?

so 1/3rd of doctors are foreign...but 2/3rds of those struck off are foreign
...do the maths..... i recon that makes foreign doctors NINE TIMES more likely to be "unfit to practice" than non foreign....

perhaps it time we stopped the demographic lottery with our health???????

by Guest Sat Apr 19, 2014 9:04 pm

victorisnotamused wrote:
Didge wrote:

One third are foreign, but again how few have been struck off, and again what pass rate do other nations have, which is important, for example what is America, France and Australia?

so 1/3rd of doctors are foreign...but 2/3rds of those struck off are foreign
...do the maths..... i recon that makes foreign doctors NINE TIMES more likely to be "unfit to practice" than non foreign....

perhaps it time we stopped the demographic lottery with our health???????

As you wish Victor, lets stop over 80,000 doctors based off 400+ in 5 years, am sure the people of Britain would love over night how you single handed destroyed the NHS leaving it on its knees unable to cope with the loss of so many doctors, even worse, countless specialists. I mean mean I agree we should have all pass by a certain level, but why and I would love to know is what the level is elsewhere?

2/3rds as you put it is down to a failing on our methods of testing, it should be used again with some absurd view and childish to state yet again some groundless view point on immigrants being here, off now what you claim as 9 times more likely. Surely if this was such a major deal why is it out of thousands it was only 400 in 5 years?

So can anyone present the American pass rate?

by Guest Sat Apr 19, 2014 9:11 pm

A diversion Didge...since the american test is most unlikely to be the same as ours....It would be like comparing their driving test to ours....NOT the same animal and the 9 times more likely is an indisputable FACT....

by Guest Sat Apr 19, 2014 9:16 pm

victorisnotamused wrote:A diversion Didge...since the american test is most unlikely to be the same as ours....It would be like comparing their driving test to ours....NOT the same animal and the 9 times more likely is an indisputable FACT....

Well there we have an utter copout to all my questions if I ever did see one.

Again he uses guilt by association, 400, out of 80,000, so 99.5% have not done anything wrong, what does that say about Victors argument?

Absurd, now we can be angry I agree at 400, but 250, who have to obtain the higher grade also fucked up, why and how? Being as we need this grade surely why would we still see people who pass this grade also fuck up? Something no doubt the boy wonder Victor cannot answer.

So try answering my points and my point on America will come apparent, how about also every EU nations and add to that Victor.

by Guest Sat Apr 19, 2014 9:24 pm

Didge wrote:
victorisnotamused wrote:A diversion Didge...since the american test is most unlikely to be the same as ours....It would be like comparing their driving test to ours....NOT the same animal and the 9 times more likely is an indisputable FACT....

Well there we have an utter copout to all my questions if I ever did see one.

Again he uses guilt by association, 400, out of 80,000, so 99.5% have not done anything wrong, what does that say about Victors argument?

Absurd, now we can be angry I agree at 400, but 250, who have to obtain the higher grade also fucked up, why and how? Being as we need this grade surely why would we still see people who pass this grade also fuck up? Something no doubt the boy wonder Victor cannot answer.

sorry but I dont see what you are getting at here......

So try answering my points and my point on America will come apparent, how about also every EU nations and add to that Victor.

and what guilt by association.....

what we need to do is simple...raise the pass rate (obviously its not high enough) AND make it certain that the applicants place in this country is DEPENDANT upon his/her performance...in other words....screw up and you are on the next plane home.....

by Guest Sat Apr 19, 2014 9:30 pm

victorisnotamused wrote:
Didge wrote:

Well there we have an utter copout to all my questions if I ever did see one.

Again he uses guilt by association, 400, out of 80,000, so 99.5% have not done anything wrong, what does that say about Victors argument?

Absurd, now we can be angry I agree at 400, but 250, who have to obtain the higher grade also fucked up, why and how? Being as we need this grade surely why would we still see people who pass this grade also fuck up? Something no doubt the boy wonder Victor cannot answer.

sorry but I dont see what you are getting at here......

So try answering my points and my point on America will come apparent, how about also every EU nations and add to that Victor.

and what guilt by association.....

what we need to do is simple...raise the pass rate (obviously its not high enough) AND make it certain that the applicants place in this country is DEPENDANT upon his/her performance...in other words....screw up and you are on the next plane home.....

So you want to raise the pass rate, not knowing how many countless over nations set theirs as in many in the west, all based off around 0.5% of foreign doctors, seriously, if we go by your illogical view point how many car accidents are there a year and how many committed by men? Surely by your esteemed intelligence and knowledge, if more than 1% of car accidents are by men, and more than women, we should thus increase the pass rate then for men?

Again you avoid every point and question, no suprise there, as you are using guilt by association to increase the pass mark. So what you are saying is we should have apartheid, where British born doctors only lose their job, but if foreign, you also get kicked out of the country? Interesting, how is that equality?

by Guest Sat Apr 19, 2014 9:53 pm

why should we "keep" foreign failures??

and are you seriously suggesting then that we should just be happy to accept that a foreign doctor is 9 times more likely to F88k up than a british one?
perhaps the answer is not to test at all...hell anyone can be a doctor...just get "practicing"

this is what makes me laugh at you ...there is clearly a problem yet you have NO answer....just ignore it and it will go away...YOU dont care how many people get given the wrong dose of lethal medication...as long as your xenophillia is fed......

as You have so fervently declared over another subject....if it saves just ONE life its worth it, and you would put near on 70,000 people out of work over it....

you are a crass hypocrite didge...you would tie yourself in knots if its your pet subject...yet loose all sense of proportion if it isnt.....

by Guest Sat Apr 19, 2014 9:57 pm

victorisnotamused wrote:why should we "keep" foreign failures??

and are you seriously suggesting then that we should just be happy to accept that a foreign doctor is 9 times more likely to F88k up than a british one?
perhaps the answer is not to test at all...hell anyone can be a doctor...just get "practicing"

this is what makes me laugh at you ...there is clearly a problem yet you have NO answer....just ignore it and it will go away...YOU dont care how many people get given the wrong dose of lethal medication...as long as your xenophillia is fed......

as You have so fervently declared over another subject....if it saves just ONE life its worth it, and you would put near on 70,000 people out of work over it....

you are a crass hypocrite didge...you would tie yourself in knots if its your pet subject...yet loose all sense of proportion if it isnt.....

Are you happy to accept we have black people more likely to end up in jail and because of a multitude of reasons why? Does that mean we should stop black people being here?
Of course not and you know better than most why, yet you use the same prejudice logic here

Again you do not even attempt to answer my questions and instead avoid them by lame poor views on me. Again I said raise it, but you are raising off a guilt by association of 2/3rd doctors doing wrong, something you hate to admit. But lets weigh up the odds again, if the pass mark is too high yet many of these foreign doctors could save millions, stopping them all practicing would end up with millions dead,because now we have to wait even longer as fewer people pass to make it to be a GP.
Seriously it is easy to tie your poor views up in knots because you are clueless mate

by Guest Sat Apr 19, 2014 10:27 pm

Didge wrote:
victorisnotamused wrote:why should we "keep" foreign failures??

and are you seriously suggesting then that we should just be happy to accept that a foreign doctor is 9 times more likely to F88k up than a british one?
perhaps the answer is not to test at all...hell anyone can be a doctor...just get "practicing"

this is what makes me laugh at you ...there is clearly a problem yet you have NO answer....just ignore it and it will go away...YOU dont care how many people get given the wrong dose of lethal medication...as long as your xenophillia is fed......

as You have so fervently declared over another subject....if it saves just ONE life its worth it, and you would put near on 70,000 people out of work over it....

you are a crass hypocrite didge...you would tie yourself in knots if its your pet subject...yet loose all sense of proportion if it isnt.....

Are you happy to accept we have black people more likely to end up in jail and because of a multitude of reasons why? Does that mean we should stop black people being here?
Of course not and you know better than most why, yet you use the same prejudice logic here

Will you kindly stop the association fallacy...you know damn well the difference, but for everyone elses sake I'll spell it out....

those black people in jail are "british subjects" in the main...by a long way...

those doctors ARE NOT...the report is about foreign doctors NOT doctors of foreign ancestry

NOW...IF a black person (or even orange, purple, green or lime green with fuscia stripes) comes here and commits a crime, they should serve their sentence and then be on the next plane home ...regardless....
IF the " person of colour" is "home grown" so to speak they are one of our own scroats and should share the fate of all scroats....simple....

likewise.....if the failure of a doctor is home grown then he's out on his ear and can find a different job...or sign on....regardless of his ancestry.....
IF he's foreign...I>E came here from another country....then home he goes....regardless.....

agree it needs raising...but obviously not to a ridiculous standard...otherwise you are setting the absurd situation where any test must be passed at 100%..which is not tenable. it needs raising to the point at which the same relative numbers of failures occurs in BOTH subsets....logic didge logic....
that of course raises the question of what level of failure is acceptable...

Again you do not even attempt to answer my questions and instead avoid them by lame poor views on me. Again I said raise it, but you are raising off a guilt by association of 2/3rd doctors doing wrong, something you hate to admit. But lets weigh up the odds again, if the pass mark is too high yet many of these foreign doctors could save millions, stopping them all practicing would end up with millions dead,because now we have to wait even longer as fewer people pass to make it to be a GP.
Seriously it is easy to tie your poor views up in knots because you are clueless mate

by Guest Sat Apr 19, 2014 10:37 pm

So again you advocate a further punishment to people only if they are foreign born and thus also believe that time spent in jail is only enough for British born people?
Again that is not equality is it Victor?

Do not get me wrong I have always advocated a view that foreign people should sign a contract when entering the nation and like any work contract of you break it you then leave.

So you are now saying if a Doctor is foreign, that are not a British subject then? A tad harsh, bit the the Gurkha's were treated, not British subjects but willing to die for the country and denied British nationhood.

Again I am all for sending foreign criminals back, but you have to have something fair and also something that also allows reformed criminals back into society.

Now again you do not weigh up the odds, many nations in fact vastly the majority do not have our pass mark, I agree it should be higher, but again, doing so could also create a catastrophe for patients, something you do not see, because I would love to have top of the range GP's, even though many are lured abroad with better deals, but I would still also have those that pass and can help save endless lives, What you fail to see is by such high standard pass rates, we will have an even bigger problem filling the market of doctors Victor and if 400 is all you can go off on to doing this, then counter that with how many would have died without the other 99.5%?

You would not even come close to how they have save countless.

Right have to go, all the best

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