The Euros....Go England!

First topic message reminder :

We are doing well! We even beat Germany!

And a four nil win against Ukraine!!!

Original Quill wrote:

Tommy Monk wrote:

Blacks are involved in significantly higher rates of violent crime, so will in turn have significantly higher engagements with police.

Whose fault is that?  It was the Englishman who created America…yes, that includes its southern slave-glory.  Kids are how you raise them...same with sub-cultures and races.  You put them in a box and lock them off, beat them now and then, maybe lynch a few, and leave 'em to raise themselves...you get what you get.

The white man raised the black man to be what you’ve got today.  Calm and rational people are trying to correct the situation and make amends.  But you...it's all kill 'em or put them in jail.  WTF...it costs you and I money, just to be bad.  A wiser decision is to give them equality, food, housing, education, and make 'em productive, contributing participants in society in the up-and-coming generation.

We were half-way there until racially-antagonizing people woke up and started apply those countermeasure, southern standards to formerly beaten-down men/women that we were trying to lift.  They made an issue of it: Make America Great Again = Make America White Again.  Treat them as animals, you're going to get animals...be a gentleman to them, and you're going to get ladies and gentlemen.

It's your self-fulfilling prophecy.

One needs to bear in mind that the US has a black Vice President, a black former President and First Lady  , black Generals, Admirals and other senior military ranks, black legislators at all levels, black judges, black professors,  black senior police commissioners and commanders, black doctors, scientists and engineers, black leaders of industry…the list is endless.

It’s  known as progress and the pursuit and achievement of not only happiness, as your Constitution guarantees, but also of equal opportunity.

Yes, Quill, i would say that it is perfectly correct to claim that the white man made what you have today, yet you appear to deprecate what most right thinking people would regard as progress and something to be proud of. People in many other countries, including those living under dictatorships, theocracies and politically extremist unelected governments, might tend to disagree with you.

Fred Moletrousers wrote:

Original Quill wrote:

Whose fault is that?  It was the Englishman who created America…yes, that includes its southern slave-glory.  Kids are how you raise them...same with sub-cultures and races.  You put them in a box and lock them off, beat them now and then, maybe lynch a few, and leave 'em to raise themselves...you get what you get.

The white man raised the black man to be what you’ve got today.  Calm and rational people are trying to correct the situation and make amends.  But you...it's all kill 'em or put them in jail.  WTF...it costs you and I money, just to be bad.  A wiser decision is to give them equality, food, housing, education, and make 'em productive, contributing participants in society in the up-and-coming generation.

We were half-way there until racially-antagonizing people woke up and started apply those countermeasure, southern standards to formerly beaten-down men/women that we were trying to lift.  They made an issue of it: Make America Great Again = Make America White Again.  Treat them as animals, you're going to get animals...be a gentleman to them, and you're going to get ladies and gentlemen.

It's your self-fulfilling prophecy.

One needs to bear in mind that the US has a black Vice President, a black former President and First Lady  , black Generals, Admirals and other senior military ranks, black legislators at all levels, black judges, black professors,  black senior police commissioners and commanders, black doctors, scientists and engineers, black leaders of industry…the list is endless.

It’s known as progress and the pursuit and achievement of not only happiness, as your Constitution guarantees, but also of equal opportunity..

It's a good start.  But so far, it's tokenism.  I would like to see it achieve normalcy...where a black judge gets no more attention than an Italian or a French judge.

Fred Moletrousers wrote:Yes, Quill, i would say that it is perfectly correct to claim that the white man made what you have today, yet you appear to deprecate what most right thinking people would regard as progress and something to be proud of. People in many other countries, including those living under dictatorships, theocracies and politically extremist unelected governments, might tend to disagree with you.

It's not depreciation, Fred.  It’s reaching - to achieve higher and farther and to do more…to do better.  We are not at the point of summation, yet…we are still in the thick of the effort.

I would say that we are at the point of the counter-revolutionary resistance - lol, as the Mensheviks would have put it.  In order to achieve normalcy, a point at which we could relax and summate, we would need to reach the point of unawareness…where ‘black’ is not even noticed, as it is unnoticed with Italians and French.  Oh, I know that facial characteristics will always be distinguishable, but where it doesn’t immediately bring up questions of politics and sociological status, as blackness does.

What we have is an anomaly, born of the aberration in our midst of an economy (the south) once based on slavery.  Its effects are wide and yet remain pervasive.  We need to undo the poison that such aberration has left us with, at least outside the south (as I’ve remarked elsewhere, I think the south still revels in the evil of it).

Quill, you talk about colour more than everyone else on here put together.

Syl wrote:Quill, you talk about colour more than everyone else on here put together.

But I don't talk more about it than blacks - who are actually affected - themselves.  All things are relative.

This is a highly conservative site, and people here are either oblivious to the problem, or downright opposed to equality.  I was born in Cambridge, and grew up in Berkeley, and I count many blacks among my friends.  Needless to say, I was absolutely dumbfounded when I first visited the south.  I made equality the central focus of my doctoral dissertation, and made equity the theme of my teaching and lawyering.

Against the background of this site, I'm sure I do stand out.  But against the background of the people who are actually being hurt, my words are but whispers.

Original Quill wrote:

Syl wrote:Quill, you talk about colour more than everyone else on here put together.

But I don't talk more about it than blacks - who are actually affected - themselves.  All things are relative.

This is a highly conservative site, and people here are either oblivious to the problem, or downright opposed to equality.  I was born in Cambridge, and grew up in Berkeley, and I count many blacks among my friends.  Needless to say, I was absolutely dumbfounded when I first visited the south.  I made equality the central focus of my doctoral dissertation, and made equity the theme of my teaching and lawyering.

Against the background of this site, I'm sure I do stand out.  But against the background of the people who are actually being hurt, my words are but whispers.

I also (like the majority of people on here I'm sure) know black and mixed race people, and they simply don't talk about their colour, why would they?

They ARE equal, and when something negative happens, as in the abuse the England black lads received, the overwhelming majority condemn it.
I don't see why you always have to make out black people are victims, and I'm sure the vast majority of them in this country don't feel like victims nor want to be treated as such.

This is the 21st century...move on.

Original Quill wrote:

Tommy Monk wrote:

Blacks are involved in significantly higher rates of violent crime, so will in turn have significantly higher engagements with police.

Whose fault is that?


It was the Englishman who created America…


yes, that includes its southern slave-glory. Kids are how you raise them...same with sub-cultures and races. You put them in a box and lock them off, beat them now and then, maybe lynch a few, and leave 'em to raise themselves...you get what you get.

The white man raised the black man to be what you’ve got today. Calm and rational people are trying to correct the situation and make amends. But you...it's all kill 'em or put them in jail. WTF...it costs you and I money, just to be bad. A wiser decision is to give them equality, food, housing, education, and make 'em productive, contributing participants in society in the up-and-coming generation.

We were half-way there until racially-antagonizing people woke up and started apply those countermeasure, southern standards to formerly beaten-down men/women that we were trying to lift. They made an issue of it: Make America Great Again = Make America White Again. Treat them as animals, you're going to get animals...be a gentleman to them, and you're going to get ladies and gentlemen.

It's your self-fulfilling prophecy.

Several of your Founding Fathers were of Scottish descent, as have been many Presidents and Justices of the United States Supreme Court.

Also of the 44 men who have served as US President, an astonishing 34 have been of either Scottish or Ulster-Scots descent.

And...

The Spanish were among the first Europeans to explore the New World and the first to settle in what is now the United States.

Britain, France, Spain, and the Netherlands established colonies in North America.






Reposted for Quill...

Syl wrote:Quill, you talk about colour more than everyone else on here put together.

If course he does.

He's such a tiresome fucking bore.

Of course he thinks he's some sort of justice warrior..

Maddog wrote:

Syl wrote:Quill, you talk about colour more than everyone else on here put together.

If course he does.

He's such a tiresome fucking bore.

Of course he thinks he's some sort of justice warrior..

I like Quill, but I agree his constant banging on about the way the horrible white people have treated the poor downtrodden black people....is a bit boring.

Some black people are bloody horrible, some play the victim, some have more racism in their little black finger than the white man sitting next to him may in his whole body....but to Quill, they are all victims and must be excused because their great, great grandfather was treated badly by some white bastard once.

Syl wrote:

Maddog wrote:

If course he does.

He's such a tiresome fucking bore.

Of course he thinks he's some sort of justice warrior..

I like Quill, but I agree his constant banging on about the way the horrible white people have treated the poor downtrodden black people....is a bit boring.

Some black people are bloody horrible, some play the victim, some  have more racism in their little black finger than the white man sitting next to him may in his whole body....but to Quill, they are all victims and must be excused because their great, great grandfather was treated badly by some white bastard once.

I guess you can like Quill in the same manner as I liked a scratched album that hung up and played the same few words over and over again.

He's a thread killer for me most of the time. And I just pop in to fuck with him..

Syl wrote:

Original Quill wrote:

But I don't talk more about it than blacks - who are actually affected - themselves.  All things are relative.

This is a highly conservative site, and people here are either oblivious to the problem, or downright opposed to equality.  I was born in Cambridge, and grew up in Berkeley, and I count many blacks among my friends.  Needless to say, I was absolutely dumbfounded when I first visited the south.  I made equality the central focus of my doctoral dissertation, and made equity the theme of my teaching and lawyering.

Against the background of this site, I'm sure I do stand out.  But against the background of the people who are actually being hurt, my words are but whispers.

I also (like the majority of people on here I'm sure) know black and mixed race people, and they simply don't talk about their colour, why would they?

They don't talk to YOU. One has to feel comfortable opening up about sensitive stuff. You are not on their wavelength.

Syl wrote:They ARE equal, and when something negative happens, as in the abuse the England black lads received, the overwhelming majority condemn it.
I don't see why you always have to make out black people are victims, and I'm sure the vast majority of them in this country don't feel like victims nor want to be treated as such.

This is the 21st century...move on.

Unfortunately, you've never experienced the south and apartheid in the US. It's truly crude.

But I am interested in moving on...without the south. I believe that Abraham Lincoln got it wrong: let 'em go, fgs! They took a bad business plan, and turned it into an ugly scar on their souls. We could make America better, but not with the south. They are not beyond redemption, but it would take centuries.

Amexit.

Maddog wrote:

Syl wrote:

I like Quill, but I agree his constant banging on about the way the horrible white people have treated the poor downtrodden black people....is a bit boring.

Some black people are bloody horrible, some play the victim, some  have more racism in their little black finger than the white man sitting next to him may in his whole body....but to Quill, they are all victims and must be excused because their great, great grandfather was treated badly by some white bastard once.

I guess you can like Quill in the same manner as I liked a scratched album that hung up and played the same few words over and over again.  

He's a thread killer for me most of the time. And I just pop in to fuck with him..

Well we cant' all like/dislike the same people....it would be pretty boring if we did,

Dont worry though, I like you too.

Original Quill wrote:

Syl wrote:

I also (like the majority of people on here I'm sure) know black and mixed race people, and they simply don't talk about their colour, why would they?

They don't talk to YOU.  One has to feel comfortable opening up about sensitive stuff.  You are not on their wavelength.

Several members of my family are black/mixed race....I actually think we are on the same wavelength.

Syl wrote:

Maddog wrote:

If course he does.

He's such a tiresome fucking bore.

Of course he thinks he's some sort of justice warrior..

I like Quill, but I agree his constant banging on about the way the horrible white people have treated the poor downtrodden black people....is a bit boring.

Some black people are bloody horrible, some play the victim, some  have more racism in their little black finger than the white man sitting next to him may in his whole body....but to Quill, they are all victims and must be excused because their great, great grandfather was treated badly by some white bastard once.

...and you wish the effect would go away. Not the cause, mind you, just the effect.

Syl wrote:

Original Quill wrote:

They don't talk to YOU.  One has to feel comfortable opening up about sensitive stuff.  You are not on their wavelength.

Several members of my family are black/mixed race....I actually think we are on the same wavelength.

So?

Syl wrote:

Maddog wrote:

I guess you can like Quill in the same manner as I liked a scratched album that hung up and played the same few words over and over again.  

He's a thread killer for me most of the time. And I just pop in to fuck with him..

Well we cant' all like/dislike the same people....it would be pretty boring if we did,

Dont worry though, I like you too.

You're very tolerant of the mentally challenged no doubt..

Original Quill wrote:

Syl wrote:

Several members of my family are black/mixed race....I actually think we are on the same wavelength.

So?

So you are wrong to presume that the black people i know are not comfortable enough to open up.

Syl wrote:

Original Quill wrote:

So?

So you are wrong to presume that the black people i know are not comfortable enough to open up.

Syl, the one thing they know about you is, you are the auntie not to raise racial issues with at the family Thanksgiving dinner.  You'd just dismiss racism anymore, here, there, or anywhere…say that blacks are just taking advantage...and demand they change the subject - very much like you are doing here.  For the sake of family amity, they would just shift in their chairs and look down at their shoes.

So, lacking any discussion on the subject, you know nothing about their feelings on race.  End of...

Original Quill wrote:

Syl wrote:

So you are wrong to presume that the black people i know are not comfortable enough to open up.

Syl, the one thing they know about you is, you are the auntie not to raise racial issues with at the family Thanksgiving dinner.  You'd just dismiss racism anymore, here, there, or anywhere…say that blacks are just taking advantage...and demand they change the subject - very much like you are doing here.  For the sake of family amity, they would just shift in their chairs and look down at their shoes.

So, lacking any discussion on the subject, you know nothing about their feelings on race.  End of...

Quill, you have as much idea about the in depth conversations I have with my family as you do about Scottish castles.....unless you google the info of course.
End of.

Syl wrote:

Original Quill wrote:

Syl, the one thing they know about you is, you are the auntie not to raise racial issues with at the family Thanksgiving dinner.  You'd just dismiss racism anymore, here, there, or anywhere…say that blacks are just taking advantage...and demand they change the subject - very much like you are doing here.  For the sake of family amity, they would just shift in their chairs and look down at their shoes.

So, lacking any discussion on the subject, you know nothing about their feelings on race.  End of...

Quill, you have as much idea about the in depth conversations I have with my family as you do about Scottish castles.....unless you google the info of course.
End of.

Sometimes, on moral questions, you have to stand your ground.  People are so used to shrugging and saying, well...whateva...  Those are lazy minds...lazy people.  Nor for me.

And I know a lot about Scottish Castles.  I've studied them generally, their design, their strategic purposes, the functions and accommodations, and the lifestyle of living in one.  Remember, I took my doctorate in a field of British history.

We'll talk about castles, if you're interested...  

Original Quill wrote:

Syl wrote:

So you are wrong to presume that the black people i know are not comfortable enough to open up.

Syl, the one thing they know about you is, you are the auntie not to raise racial issues with at the family Thanksgiving dinner.  You'd just dismiss racism anymore, here, there, or anywhere…say that blacks are just taking advantage...and demand they change the subject - very much like you are doing here.  For the sake of family amity, they would just shift in their chairs and look down at their shoes.

So, lacking any discussion on the subject, you know nothing about their feelings on race.  End of...

How in the fuck can you speak for Syl's family and friends?


You have some serious mental issues.

You're not even entertaining as a train wreck anymore..

Maddog wrote:

Original Quill wrote:

Syl, the one thing they know about you is, you are the auntie not to raise racial issues with at the family Thanksgiving dinner.  You'd just dismiss racism anymore, here, there, or anywhere…say that blacks are just taking advantage...and demand they change the subject - very much like you are doing here.  For the sake of family amity, they would just shift in their chairs and look down at their shoes.

So, lacking any discussion on the subject, you know nothing about their feelings on race.  End of...

How in the fuck can you speak for Syl's family and friends?

He can't, that was a bit presumptuous of him to think he has any idea of what we talk about round the dinner table.

I actually have the longest, most interesting in depth conversations with my two grandsons as I do with anyone else alive....we put the world to rights on a regular basis.

Syl wrote:

Maddog wrote:

How in the fuck can you speak for Syl's family and friends?

He can't, that was a bit presumptuous of him to think he has any idea of what we talk about round the dinner table.

I actually have the longest, most interesting in depth conversations with my two grandsons as I do with anyone else alive....we put the world to rights on a regular basis.

Presumptuous is a kind word for lying.

It's why any conversation with him beyond some snarky comments is a waste of time.

He will just misrepresent your position and those of people he doesn't even know.

I named him Walter Mitty years ago amd its still accurate today.

Original Quill wrote:

Syl wrote:Quill, you talk about colour more than everyone else on here put together.

But I don't talk more about it than blacks - who are actually affected - themselves.  All things are relative.

This is a highly conservative site, and people here are either oblivious to the problem, or downright opposed to equality.  I was born in Cambridge, and grew up in Berkeley, and I count many blacks among my friends.  Needless to say, I was absolutely dumbfounded when I first visited the south.  I made equality the central focus of my doctoral dissertation, and made equity the theme of my teaching and lawyering.

Against the background of this site, I'm sure I do stand out.  But against the background of the people who are actually being hurt, my words are but whispers.

I would disagree strongly with you that this is a highly conservative site (or Conservative if you are putting it in U.K. party political terms). I would say that apart from Tommy, the great majority of current posters represent what most people would regard as the middle ground. That, by the way, is not an intended criticism of Tommy…he is as much entitled to hold and express his opinions as is anyone else in an environment where freedom of thought and expression still exists.

You yourself are perfectly entitled to campaign vigorously on behalf of your personal belief that all black people are universally and routinely still suffering persecution, abuse and inequality and that the history of the 18th and 19th century slave trade and colonialism still has any real impact on their enjoyment of advancement and equal opportunity.

I certainly don’t witness that and, frankly I don’t know anyone else who does. Apart, that is, from those who would benefit and profit from the perpetuation of the myth…criminals who find increasingly that playing the race card is an effective way of escaping the consequences of their activities or the tiresome, vociferous and self appointed custodians of moral and ethical standards who find that re-writing history in accordance with their own blinkered views and pulling down statues, “cancelling” any teacher or writer who expresses an opposite opinion and “deplatforming” anyone who dares to speak critically of their cherished version of heresy.

Maddog wrote:

Original Quill wrote:

Syl, the one thing they know about you is, you are the auntie not to raise racial issues with at the family Thanksgiving dinner.  You'd just dismiss racism anymore, here, there, or anywhere…say that blacks are just taking advantage...and demand they change the subject - very much like you are doing here.  For the sake of family amity, they would just shift in their chairs and look down at their shoes.

So, lacking any discussion on the subject, you know nothing about their feelings on race.  End of...

How in the fuck can you speak for Syl's family and friends?

You have some serious mental issues.

You're not even entertaining as a train wreck anymore..

Good. If it's not entertaining, that's less riff-raff to deal with. I presume we'll be seeing less of you.

I'm sure Quill talks, thinks, and dreams about  black lives more often than the average black person,  but some black people do seem to see discrimination where none exists.

For instance, on my local radio they played a conversation between 2 women of colour this week.
They were talking about skin colour and how lighter skin colour is seen as preferable to dark skin colour. Having spent the last few days sat in the sun getting a good  tan this baffles me.

So who looks down on darker skin? my suspicion is it's a minority of black people themselves, and I do know that some young black girls do try to lighten their skin tone.....but it's for their own vanity not because other people find fairer skin attractive.

I see a lot of articles about how to get a safe tan rather than how to get a whiter skin.

Incidentally, an Indian woman complimented me on my tan this week, she said she could never manage to go dark in the sun. I told her she was dark to start off with, so she needn't try. We compared arms....we were actually about the same colour,

Original Quill wrote:

Tommy Monk wrote:

Blacks are involved in significantly higher rates of violent crime, so will in turn have significantly higher engagements with police.

Whose fault is that?


It was the Englishman who created America…


yes, that includes its southern slave-glory. Kids are how you raise them...same with sub-cultures and races. You put them in a box and lock them off, beat them now and then, maybe lynch a few, and leave 'em to raise themselves...you get what you get.

The white man raised the black man to be what you’ve got today. Calm and rational people are trying to correct the situation and make amends. But you...it's all kill 'em or put them in jail. WTF...it costs you and I money, just to be bad. A wiser decision is to give them equality, food, housing, education, and make 'em productive, contributing participants in society in the up-and-coming generation.

We were half-way there until racially-antagonizing people woke up and started apply those countermeasure, southern standards to formerly beaten-down men/women that we were trying to lift. They made an issue of it: Make America Great Again = Make America White Again. Treat them as animals, you're going to get animals...be a gentleman to them, and you're going to get ladies and gentlemen.

It's your self-fulfilling prophecy.

Several of your Founding Fathers were of Scottish descent, as have been many Presidents and Justices of the United States Supreme Court.

Also of the 44 men who have served as US President, an astonishing 34 have been of either Scottish or Ulster-Scots descent.

And...

The Spanish were among the first Europeans to explore the New World and the first to settle in what is now the United States.

Britain, France, Spain, and the Netherlands established colonies in North America.




Reposted for Quill, who likes to blame the Englishman for everything... I wonder why he never mentions the Scottish...?

Syl wrote:So who looks down on darker skin? my suspicion is it's a minority of black people themselves, and I do know that some young black girls do try to lighten their skin tone.....but it's for their own vanity not because other people find fairer skin attractive.

Gd. point. I think there's a lot of truth to that. Psychological attitudes about self-worth are one of measures of the damage that racism does. They teach black children to think they are of less worth themselves, than whites.

That's what happens with a self-fulfilling prophecy. That's why blacks so frequently turn to petty crime: unconsciously they figure, well, that's what we are...being lesser. That's why I continually ask tommy, who made 'em that way? Writ large, that’s the evil that discrimination does.

But, I'm not really so much obsessed with blacks, as I am with inequality. That was my primary thesis in my doctoral work. The inequality of blacks in the American south is just the most obvious example of social and political inequality hereabouts.

Original Quill wrote:

Syl wrote:So who looks down on darker skin? my suspicion is it's a minority of black people themselves, and I do know that some young black girls do try to lighten their skin tone.....but it's for their own vanity not because other people find fairer skin attractive.

Gd. point.  I think there's a lot of truth to that.  Psychological attitudes about self-worth are one of measures of the damage that racism does.  They teach black children to think they are of less worth themselves, than whites.

That's what happens with a self-fulfilling prophecy.  That's why blacks so frequently turn to petty crime: unconsciously they figure, well, that's what we are...being lesser.  That's why I continually ask tommy, who made 'em that way?  Writ large, that’s the evil that discrimination does.

But, I'm not really so much obsessed with blacks, as I am with inequality.  That was my primary thesis in my doctoral work.  The inequality of blacks in the American south is just the most obvious example of social and political inequality hereabouts.

Is that sign still used Quill? Is it even legal? It looks like an historic artefact in a museum to me.

Tommy Monk wrote:Reposted for Quill, who likes to blame the Englishman for everything... I wonder why he never mentions the Scottish...?

Not just the English...although the United Kingdom was responsible for the colonization of the eastern seaboard of North America, and that's much of what we are talking about when we address American racism.

But it was European outreach that touched off what became a unified world.  Think of it: here was a culture that knew only horses and oxen...power by beasts-of-burden.  Here was a culture that used horses for transportation, oxen for agriculture, and ate birds and farm animals.

What were they to think of humanoids that were obviously of a more primitive technological culture?  Were they humans, like us, or were they like the oxen...a gift of providence to help us run our farms?  What kind of animal was this?  Obviously, there were some who opted for the latter, and they were predominately the English...the English made a whole industry of slave-trading.  The Spaniards and Portuguese were actually the ones who asked the moral questions.  See, Boorstin, Daniel, The Discoverers: A History of Man's Search to Know His World and Himself (1983).

Fred Moletrousers wrote:

Is that sign still used Quill? Is it even legal?  It looks like an historic artefact in a museum to me.  

It was made illegal only by, and as late as the Civil Rights Act of 1964.  Surprisingly, we are seeing the Republican Supreme Court invalidate the 1965 Voting Rights Act, leading us back into Jim Crow legislation. preventing blacks and Hispanics from voting.

The Court's rationale?  All better now...we no longer discriminate in the US!  Then George Floyd happens.  As Pete Seeger asked: When will they ever learn, when will they ever learn?

Original Quill wrote:

Tommy Monk wrote:Reposted for Quill, who likes to blame the Englishman for everything... I wonder why he never mentions the Scottish...?

Not just the English...although the United Kingdom was responsible for the colonization of the eastern seaboard of North America, and that's much of what we are talking about when we address American racism.

But it was European outreach that touched off what became a unified world.  Think of it: here was a culture that knew only horses and oxen...power by beasts-of-burden.  Here was a culture that used horses for transportation, oxen for agriculture, and ate birds and farm animals.

What were they to think of humanoids that were obviously of a more primitive technological culture?  Were they humans, like us, or were they like the oxen...a gift of providence to help us run our farms?  What kind of animal was this?  Obviously, there were some who opted for the latter, and they were predominately the English...the English made a whole industry of slave-trading.  The Spaniards and Portuguese were actually the ones who asked the moral questions.  See, Boorstin, Daniel, The Discoverers: A History of Man's Search to Know His World and Himself (1983).

You might have had the good grace to add to that diatribe against the English the achievements of the late 18th century English MP William Wilberforce and such English anti slavery campaigners as Thomas Clarkson, Hannah More, Granville Sharpe and Charles Middleton whose sterling efforts led to the 1833 Slavery Abolition Act.

And, for the record, the people who primarily “made a whole industry of slave-trading” in West Africa were, er, black African Arabs.

Slavery was an industry way before the transatlantic slave trade, Far more slaves were transported from the east coast of Africa to be used as beasts of burden, sex slaves etc.
WE should stop looking back and blaming but learn from the past especially as it still going on in the traditional way in some countries and human trafficking in others - lets get upset about that and do something about it instead of pulling down statues and pointing fingers back to the past.
If Quill got so upset about modern slavery I'd agree with him.

Original Quill wrote:

Fred Moletrousers wrote:

Is that sign still used Quill? Is it even legal?  It looks like an historic artefact in a museum to me.  

It was made illegal only by, and as late as the Civil Rights Act of 1964.  Surprisingly, we are seeing the Republican Supreme Court invalidate the 1965 Voting Rights Act, leading us back into Jim Crow legislation. preventing blacks and Hispanics from voting.

The Court's rationale?  All better now...we no longer discriminate in the US!  Then George Floyd happens.  As Pete Seeger asked: When will they ever learn, when will they ever learn?

That’s almost 60 years ago, then….far later than other civilised countries, maybe, but still a long time ago.

About the US Supreme Court’s invalidation moves I know nothing, but yielding to your professional and superior knowledge and accepting it as an accurate statement I would say that your Supreme Court would do well to learn from the much maligned English legal system which has long proscribed such discrimination.

And much as the George Floyd case was an incident that shocked, horrified and repelled people worldwide, was this not more a consequence of your country’s system of armed and aggressive policing and crime investigation?

Fred Moletrousers wrote:

Original Quill wrote:

It was made illegal only by, and as late as the Civil Rights Act of 1964.  Surprisingly, we are seeing the Republican Supreme Court invalidate the 1965 Voting Rights Act, leading us back into Jim Crow legislation. preventing blacks and Hispanics from voting.

The Court's rationale?  All better now...we no longer discriminate in the US!  Then George Floyd happens.  As Pete Seeger asked: When will they ever learn, when will they ever learn?

That’s almost 60 years ago, then….far later than other civilised countries, maybe, but still a long time ago.

About the US Supreme Court’s invalidation moves I know nothing, but yielding to your professional and superior knowledge and accepting it as an accurate statement I would say that your Supreme Court would do well to learn from the much maligned English legal system which has long proscribed such discrimination.

And much as the George Floyd case was an incident that shocked, horrified and repelled  people worldwide, was this not more a consequence of your country’s system of armed and aggressive policing and crime investigation?

And it happened in Minnesota.

Must be trying reinstate Jim Crow laws up there.

Maddog wrote:

Fred Moletrousers wrote:

That’s almost 60 years ago, then….far later than other civilised countries, maybe, but still a long time ago.

About the US Supreme Court’s invalidation moves I know nothing, but yielding to your professional and superior knowledge and accepting it as an accurate statement I would say that your Supreme Court would do well to learn from the much maligned English legal system which has long proscribed such discrimination.

And much as the George Floyd case was an incident that shocked, horrified and repelled  people worldwide, was this not more a consequence of your country’s system of armed and aggressive policing and crime investigation?

And it happened in Minnesota.

Must be trying reinstate Jim Crow laws up there.

To me, Jim Crow laws seem to be about as archaic and relevant today as our own most recent Witchcraft Act…which entered the statute book in 1735 and effectively ended the hunting and execution of witches in England.

Fred Moletrousers wrote:

Maddog wrote:

And it happened in Minnesota.

Must be trying reinstate Jim Crow laws up there.

To me, Jim Crow laws seem to be about as archaic and relevant today as our own most recent Witchcraft Act…which entered the statute book in 1735 and effectively ended the hunting and execution of witches in England.

When Quill says we are instituting Jim Crow laws he means that we will discontinue drive through voting, 24 hour voting and require an ID to vote.

We will still be given about 10 days to vote before every election, and those with a good reason, will still be allowed to vote absentee.

His shrieking about Jim Crow laws is hyperbole.

Maddog wrote:

Fred Moletrousers wrote:

To me, Jim Crow laws seem to be about as archaic and relevant today as our own most recent Witchcraft Act…which entered the statute book in 1735 and effectively ended the hunting and execution of witches in England.

When Quill says we are instituting Jim Crow laws he means that we will discontinue drive through voting, 24 hour voting and require an ID to vote.

We will still be given about 10 days to vote before every election, and those with a good reason, will still be allowed to vote absentee.  

His shrieking about Jim Crow laws is hyperbole.  

Ah, but do they disadvantage the descendants of African slaves?

Fred Moletrousers wrote:

Maddog wrote:

When Quill says we are instituting Jim Crow laws he means that we will discontinue drive through voting, 24 hour voting and require an ID to vote.

We will still be given about 10 days to vote before every election, and those with a good reason, will still be allowed to vote absentee.  

His shrieking about Jim Crow laws is hyperbole.  

Ah, but do they disadvantage the descendants of African slaves?

I'm not sure how, and it's patronizing to suggest as such.

The big hangup is absentee voting. Right now people can go door to door collecting ballots (and assisting people on how to fill them out).

When we do have fraud, that's where it always happens. Absentee votes. In person voting is very secure.

This is what we are trying to prevent............



Ahead of the start of early voting, the Texas Attorney General’s office announced that four women in Tarrant County were indicted on 30 felony counts of voter fraud connected to activity in 2016.

Leticia Sanchez was indicted on one court of illegal voting, a second-degree felony punishable by two to 20 years in prison. She was also charged with providing false information on an application for mail-in ballots.

Also facing state jail felony charges for providing false information on mail-in ballot applications are Leticia Sanchez Tepichin, 10 counts; Maria Solis, two counts and Laura Parra, one count.

The women were part of an organized voter fraud ring and were paid to target elderly voters in some Northside Fort Worth precincts to generate mail-in ballots and then “harvest” the ballots to certain candidates, according to Paxton’s office.

“Ballots by mail are intended to make it easier for Texas seniors to vote,” Paxton said. “The unfortunate downside is their extreme vulnerability to fraud.”

The vote harvesting process involves generating a large number of mail-in ballots, interception of the ballots by harvesters and coaxing of victims to cast ballots according to harvesters’ wishes.

Other steps in the deception process include fraudulent mail-in ballot applications, and forged signatures. In most cases, voters are not aware their votes were stolen, officials said.

From 2005-2017, the attorney general’s office has prosecuted 97 people for voter fraud violations.

Original Quill wrote:

Tommy Monk wrote:Reposted for Quill, who likes to blame the Englishman for everything... I wonder why he never mentions the Scottish...?

Not just the English...although the United Kingdom was responsible for the colonization of the eastern seaboard of North America, and that's much of what we are talking about when we address American racism.

But it was European outreach that touched off what became a unified world.  Think of it: here was a culture that knew only horses and oxen...power by beasts-of-burden.  Here was a culture that used horses for transportation, oxen for agriculture, and ate birds and farm animals.

What were they to think of humanoids that were obviously of a more primitive technological culture?  Were they humans, like us, or were they like the oxen...a gift of providence to help us run our farms?  What kind of animal was this?  Obviously, there were some who opted for the latter, and they were predominately the English...the English made a whole industry of slave-trading.  The Spaniards and Portuguese were actually the ones who asked the moral questions.  See, Boorstin, Daniel, The Discoverers: A History of Man's Search to Know His World and Himself (1983).

You are of Scottish descent, aren't you?


So you should be blaming your ancestors and others who were in America making it what it was/ is, and not trying to blame us here in UK today who had absolutely nothing to do with any of it!!!

Tommy Monk wrote:

Original Quill wrote:

Not just the English...although the United Kingdom was responsible for the colonization of the eastern seaboard of North America, and that's much of what we are talking about when we address American racism.

But it was European outreach that touched off what became a unified world.  Think of it: here was a culture that knew only horses and oxen...power by beasts-of-burden.  Here was a culture that used horses for transportation, oxen for agriculture, and ate birds and farm animals.

What were they to think of humanoids that were obviously of a more primitive technological culture?  Were they humans, like us, or were they like the oxen...a gift of providence to help us run our farms?  What kind of animal was this?  Obviously, there were some who opted for the latter, and they were predominately the English...the English made a whole industry of slave-trading.  The Spaniards and Portuguese were actually the ones who asked the moral questions.  See, Boorstin, Daniel, The Discoverers: A History of Man's Search to Know His World and Himself (1983).

You are of Scottish descent, aren't you?

So you should be blaming your ancestors and others who were in America making it what it was/ is, and not trying to blame us here in UK today who had absolutely nothing to do with any of it!!!

Yes, the Scots were slave holders/masters big time. As you know, informal English has no 2nd-person plural - formal English has 'thee' and 'thou', but with informal English it's only 'you' and 'you'. So the Scots invented a contraction: "y'all", to stand in for 2nd-person plural.

The Scots so infiltrated the southern US, that "y'all" is now only recognized as southern US, and the Scottish origins is long forgotten.

As far as your message, the answer is not to go around feeling guilty. I don't. The answer is to fix things. The SC says it's remedial. That's why education is so important. It feeds into jobs, leadership in the community, quality of life, and so many things about elevating a people. We've already have had a president who was Ivy League, a lawyer, president of Law Review, and a senator...all due to education. Look how quickly that has happened since we started halting southern Jim Crow laws/practices holding the black race back!!

That's why the reinventing of Jim Crow in voting rights is so threatening.

Waffle...


Yawn!


How about answering my points, instead of waffling bollocks...!!


You admit that Scottish were big players in the slave trade, and you don't dispute what I said about there being so many of the USA founding fathers being Scottish, as well as the huge number of previous presidents being of Scottish heritage too... Plus the huge number of Justices of the United States Supreme Court who have also been Scottish... And you are always so keen to boast about your own Scottish ancestry...



People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones...

And WTF has 'The Discoverers: A History of Man's Search to Know His World and Himself' got to do with anything...!?


Please cite examples of relevance...?


Or admit that you are just waffling more of your regular bullshit that we have come to see from you so often here...!?

Tommy Monk wrote:Waffle...

Yawn!

How about answering my points, instead of waffling bollocks...!!

You admit that Scottish were big players in the slave trade, and you don't dispute what I said about there being so many of the USA founding fathers being Scottish, as well as the huge number of previous presidents being of Scottish heritage too... Plus the huge number of Justices of the United States Supreme Court who have also been Scottish... And you are always so keen to boast about your own Scottish ancestry...

People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones...

What is your point, then?  "People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones..." is not a question; it's a sobriquet.

I've already said that the answer is not to waste time on blame.  The answer is remedial...to correct and repair what has been done wrong.

Methinks you want to write my answer for me.  That is not dialogue; that is decree...the kind that dictators engage in.  You don't want to hear the real answer.  You only want to impose your own, preconceived answer...which is to say, you don't want to recognize anyone else in the room.

Tommy Monk wrote:And WTF has 'The Discoverers: A History of Man's Search to Know His World and Himself' got to do with anything...!?

The Discoverers is a non-fiction historical work, focusing on Western Civilization, by Daniel Boorstin.  It is the first in the Knowledge Trilogy, which also includes The Creators and The Seekers. The book, subtitled A History of Man's Search to Know His World and Himself, is a history of western human conceptual discovery.

I reference it because it goes into various aspects of the western perception as Europeans branched out and discovered not just new geography, but as well, new flora and fauna in Africa, Australia and the Americas.  One obvious encounter was with africanus humanoids, and the obvious question of Europeans was: are they humans, like us, or beasts-of-burden, like oxen?  Remember, this was in a non-industrialized era, where brawn served as the engine of the economy.  It would be like asking if something was mechanical or animal, today.    Oxen were to be exploited; which were these?

Boorstin goes into great detail about this, and which European peoples came down on which side.  He is trying to explain the institution of 16th-century slavery, so necessary to understanding the Americas as British, French and Spanish colonists developed foreign territories, and the moral vs. economic views that each nationality took.  Specifically, he is trying to explain why the conceptual line between freeman/slave was coterminous with the line between white man/black man.  It turns out the Spanish and Portuguese took the more ethical view...the British, more frequently, the economic view.

Original Quill wrote:

Tommy Monk wrote:Waffle...

Yawn!

How about answering my points, instead of waffling bollocks...!!

You admit that Scottish were big players in the slave trade, and you don't dispute what I said about there being so many of the USA founding fathers being Scottish, as well as the huge number of previous presidents being of Scottish heritage too... Plus the huge number of Justices of the United States Supreme Court who have also been Scottish... And you are always so keen to boast about your own Scottish ancestry...

People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones...

What is your point, then?  "People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones..." is not a question; it's a sobriquet.

I've already said that the answer is not to waste time on blame.  The answer is remedial...to correct and repair what has been done wrong.

Methinks you want to write my answer for me.  That is not dialogue; that is decree...the kind that dictators engage in.  You don't want to hear the real answer.  You only want to impose your own, preconceived answer...which is to say, you don't want to recognize anyone else in the room.

Says the man who constantly tries to point the blame at others...

Tommy Monk wrote:

Original Quill wrote:

What is your point, then?  "People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones..." is not a question; it's a sobriquet.

I've already said that the answer is not to waste time on blame.  The answer is remedial...to correct and repair what has been done wrong.

Methinks you want to write my answer for me.  That is not dialogue; that is decree...the kind that dictators engage in.  You don't want to hear the real answer.  You only want to impose your own, preconceived answer...which is to say, you don't want to recognize anyone else in the room.

Says the man who constantly tries to point the blame at others...

Don't give us whataboutism, tommy.  Why not take advantage of my concession when I say it's not a blame game?  That's your opening.  At this point forward, either agree that remedial steps must be taken, and state what you think they are, or state your opposition.  It's your turn...take your best shot.  

Forget blame, and carry on the discussion from here.  Let the dialogue progress, eh?

So much for the avalanche of racist abuse supposedly sent to black players by UK based England fans after the penalty shoot out fuk up...




"...Police have arrested 11 people as they continue a hate crimes investigation into social media messages sent after the Euro 2020 final.

The UK Football Policing Unit received 600 reports of racist comments sent to England's black players after the defeat and judged 207 to be criminal.

Of these, 123 were posted by people overseas, while 34 came from the UK.

Police are awaiting information from social media companies about the owners of the remaining 50 accounts...."



Seems like it really was 'only a few'...!

And don't forget that the rashford mural didn't actually have any racist abuse on it at all either!!!