The Euros....Go England!

by eddie Sat Jul 03, 2021 10:14 pm

First topic message reminder :

We are doing well! We even beat Germany! cheers

And a four nil win against Ukraine!!! Cool

by Maddog Sun Jul 18, 2021 1:54 am

Ben Reilly wrote:Didn't mean to turn this into a thread about racism. I don't think many people, black people in particular, hold the white people of today responsible for slavery and inequality.

The below comment is fairly common in academia, politics and healtcare.

"We now recognize that racism and discrimination are deeply ingrained in the social, political, and economic structures of our society. For minorities, these differences result in unequal access to quality education, healthy food, livable wages, and affordable housing. In the wake of multiple highly publicized events, the Black Lives Matter movement has gained momentum, and with it have come more strident calls to address this ingrained, or structural, racism, as well as implicit bias."

by Fred Moletrousers Sun Jul 18, 2021 11:20 am

Ben Reilly wrote:Didn't mean to turn this into a thread about racism. I don't think many people, black people in particular, hold the white people of today responsible for slavery and inequality.

It turned into a thread about racism because of the extensive Press, radio and TV coverage of the vile racist filth posted on Twitter and other social media platforms and a long running and perfectly valid debate on whether or not sportsmen and women representing this or any other nation should use an overtly political gesture that originated in the US to convey a political message - eminently worthy though that message may be.

You are, in my opinion, correct in saying that not many people would hold white people of today responsible for slavery and (though perhaps a bit more debatable) inequality. But some national governments, as well as campaigners and activists, certainly do so, and theirs are the voices that tend to be heard the loudest.

But slavery is and always has been part of global history…Romans,German Saxons, Scandinavian Vikings and French Normans ALL enslaved Britons over a period of nearly 11 centuries. Where’s OUR compensation?
You don’t right an historical wrong by cancelling (to use the revisionists’ own word) it from history…you learn from it and progress.

And just a couple of facts that I very rarely hear even hinted at: Do you know who were the very worst and some of the most brutal 18th and 19th slave traders in Western Africa? They were African Arabs, devoted followers of Islam.

Or that the nation that more than any other ended inhuman slave trafficking and yet is now the most vilified? It was the U.K., largely due to the campaigning zeal of MP William Wilberforce and the sailors of the Royal Navy who served, fought, suffered and died of ghastly disease off the West African coast.

by Fred Moletrousers Sun Jul 18, 2021 11:40 am

Original Quill wrote:
Fred M. wrote:I am somewhat surprised that a lawyer should be asking a journalist to qualify his use of the word “legitimate” in this context, given that when used as an adjective it simply means “conforming to the law or rules.”

I am a logician first, and a lawyer second. When one says something [fill in blank] is legitimate, one is saying it is primary and thus authoritative. If one says that censorship and suppressing free speech is primary and authoritative, of course I’m going to disagree. Free speech fosters dialogue; suppressing it fosters warfare.

You keep going back into the yin and yang of your posts, when I’m trying to boil it down to its simplest terms. You keep denying that you are trying to “incite racial hatred”, when that is not what I’m talking about. I’m talking about freedom of speech.

The “act” in this case is a symbolic taking of a knee - symbolic of (in the original case) America’s callous disregard for black lives. Some have said that such specific act is a forbidden symbol…that it is inappropriate and ‘against the law or rules’ (it is not), or disrespectful, or a ‘wet-blanket’ on the occasion. I have focused my comments on whether it is a forbidden/disrespectful/wet-blanket act?, within the context of the logic of free speech/expression.

I am not addressing the underlying racial animus question, in regard to which the take-a-knee expression started (one argument at a time). I am merely pointing out that free expression – particularly when it is non-intrusive, as it is here - should not be curtailed by vacuous and faux attempts at justification. And, logically, to offer nothing but clucking is veritably to admit the principle for which take-a-knee was invoked. Face it...if you've got no reason to oppose, what are you saying by opposition?

I think that what you are saying, though perhaps somewhat more eloquently than I, is that used in the context of my post the word “legitimate” means “conforming to the law or rules.” Oh, isn’t that what I said?

I don’t know how much latitude your First Amendment gives you in the United States, but here “freedom of speech” extends neither to words written or spoken that tend to incite racial or religious hatred or to words written or spoken that “expose someone to hatred, contempt or ridicule.” Breaching either can prove to be very costly, both in terms of money or imprisonment.

by Syl Sun Jul 18, 2021 11:48 am

Maddog wrote:
Ben Reilly wrote:Didn't mean to turn this into a thread about racism. I don't think many people, black people in particular, hold the white people of today responsible for slavery and inequality.

The below comment is fairly common in academia, politics and healtcare.

"We now recognize that racism and discrimination are deeply ingrained in the social, political, and economic structures of our society. For minorities, these differences result in unequal access to quality education, healthy food, livable wages, and affordable housing. In the wake of multiple highly publicized events, the Black Lives Matter movement has gained momentum, and with it have come more strident calls to address this ingrained, or structural, racism, as well as implicit bias."

Sometimes I think some black people see injustice when it doesn't even exist, and in doing so they make themselves unequal.

For eg....the highest % of people in England who have refused the Covid vaccine are black.
Black people have been hit hard with needing hospital treatment and even dying from Covid.
They have been given special attention, for eg locally, some vaccination centres are predominately for black and mixed race people, staffed by black nurses and volunteers, and black staff are on hand to talk through any worries people may have.

One of the reasons given for the poor turn out is the way black people have been treated historically. They obviously get the same vaccines the whites have had....It just doesn't make sense.

by Fred Moletrousers Sun Jul 18, 2021 12:18 pm

Didgee wrote:
Fred Moletrousers wrote:

If you feel the need to wear a pink pinafore, dear boy, be my guest. Whatever floats your boat.

If you wish to dress up in the kit of a paramilitary demonstrating readiness for combat, do that too.

You should be aware, however, that you would be far less likely to get your ass shot off by a trigger happy cop in either the US or the U.K. if you were wearing a pink pinny, and I really don’t think our far Right knuckle draggers would bother too much to take on a feller in a pink pinny if there was a scary black clad opponent available for a bit of a rumble.

Sorry Fred you conflate to separate issues and use poor guilt by association arguments

Do black lives mater?

Of course they do and even more after the poor racist behaviour of England fans

This is 2021

Not the 1930's

You do not have to support the Marxist organisation called black lives ,matters, but you can support the concept of why black lives matters when as seen they continually suffer racist abuse

You and I will never go through life suffering this kind of abuse

The fact is there is still a mass of racism and unless people stand up and speak out against this, then sorry mate, you are making petty and poor excuses here

Fine, condemn organisations like Black lives matters as nothing more than political

However you should also support and stand behind black people and their lives mattering in life, when you will never face the discrimination they do in daily life

Hello, Didge….long time since we crossed swords.

You are making the common mistake of confusing “black lives matter” with “Black Lives Matter.” The former is a statement of the bleedin’ obvious, as Basil Fawlty so elegantly put it; to me, ALL human life matters and because I am not a racist I choose to make no reference to race, colour or creed in expressing that belief.

The latter is the title of an aspiring political movement with an agenda that includes ending the concept of family and the defunding of the police, some of the leaders of which like to post social media pictures of themselves in full military gear while giving what the Americans call a black panther salute. I would neither support nor campaign for them any more than I would support the Sonnenkreig Division and the use of. Fascist salute.

That does not mean that I am going to condemn them in the sense that I am going to pen endless diatribes on social media, join protests and wave banners or start signing up to and helping to fund counter groups. That’s not my style.

Any active campaigning and most donating that I do is centred on ex-service organisations, principally the Royal British Legion of which I am a branch chairman and Poppy Appeal collector, but also the Royal Air Forces Association which still works on behalf of veterans of all the former Commonwealth air forces and their dependants.

Both organisations include and support people of ALL races, colours and creeds, because, quite frankly, they firmly believe that ALL lives matter…and that is how I personally try to actually do something constructive rather than simply trying to tell others how they should feel and what they should be doing.

by Vintage Sun Jul 18, 2021 1:10 pm

Check out the co founder of the Toronto BLM. Yusra Khogali.
As far as I know there 's been no censure of her hate speech. I will of course be happy to be advised of the contrary.

by Tommy Monk Sun Jul 18, 2021 2:31 pm

Syl wrote:
Maddog wrote:

The below comment is fairly common in academia, politics and healtcare.

"We now recognize that racism and discrimination are deeply ingrained in the social, political, and economic structures of our society. For minorities, these differences result in unequal access to quality education, healthy food, livable wages, and affordable housing. In the wake of multiple highly publicized events, the Black Lives Matter movement has gained momentum, and with it have come more strident calls to address this ingrained, or structural, racism, as well as implicit bias."

Sometimes I think some black people see injustice when it doesn't even exist, and in doing so they make themselves unequal.

For eg....the highest % of people in England who have refused the Covid vaccine are black.
Black people have been hit hard with needing hospital treatment and even dying from Covid.
They have been given special attention, for eg locally, some vaccination centres are predominately for black and mixed race people, staffed by black nurses and volunteers, and black staff are on hand to talk through any worries people may have.

One of the reasons given for the poor turn out is the way black people have been treated historically. They obviously get the same vaccines the whites have had....It just doesn't make sense.

Blacks have only had higher than national rates of infections because they predominantly live in London where the virus has been most widespread.

Now London has the lowest rates of infection in the country, although also having the lowest rate of vaccine take ups...

by Syl Sun Jul 18, 2021 3:45 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:
Syl wrote:

Sometimes I think some black people see injustice when it doesn't even exist, and in doing so they make themselves unequal.

For eg....the highest % of people in England who have refused the Covid vaccine are black.
Black people have been hit hard with needing hospital treatment and even dying from Covid.
They have been given special attention, for eg locally, some vaccination centres are predominately for black and mixed race people, staffed by black nurses and volunteers, and black staff are on hand to talk through any worries people may have.

One of the reasons given for the poor turn out is the way black people have been treated historically. They obviously get the same vaccines the whites have had....It just doesn't make sense.

Blacks have only had higher than national rates of infections because they predominantly live in London where the virus has been most widespread.

Now London has the lowest rates of infection in the country, although also having the lowest rate of vaccine take ups...

Statistically black people have had high rates of Covid nationwide....not only London.
One reason is thought to be many black mixed race people also work in the NHS and caring professions. Also front line when dealing with the public, shop keepers, delivery drivers, taxi, bus drivers etc.

by Maddog Sun Jul 18, 2021 4:44 pm

Syl wrote:
Maddog wrote:

The below comment is fairly common in academia, politics and healtcare.

"We now recognize that racism and discrimination are deeply ingrained in the social, political, and economic structures of our society. For minorities, these differences result in unequal access to quality education, healthy food, livable wages, and affordable housing. In the wake of multiple highly publicized events, the Black Lives Matter movement has gained momentum, and with it have come more strident calls to address this ingrained, or structural, racism, as well as implicit bias."

Sometimes I think some black people see injustice when it doesn't even exist, and in doing so they make themselves unequal.

For eg....the highest % of people in England who have refused the Covid vaccine are black.
Black people have been hit hard with needing hospital treatment and even dying from Covid.
They have been given special attention, for eg locally, some vaccination centres are predominately for black and mixed race people, staffed by black nurses and volunteers, and black staff are on hand to talk through any worries people may have.

One of the reasons given for the poor turn out is the way black people have been treated historically. They obviously get the same vaccines the whites have had....It just doesn't make sense.

There is power in being a victim. Doesn't matter if you are really a victim or not.

by Original Quill Sun Jul 18, 2021 5:53 pm

Fred Moletrousers wrote:I think that what you are saying, though perhaps somewhat more eloquently than I, is that used in the context of my post the word “legitimate” means “conforming to the law or rules.” Oh, isn’t that what I said?

I don’t know how much latitude your First Amendment gives you in the United States, but here “freedom of speech” extends neither to words written or spoken that tend to incite racial or religious hatred or to words written or spoken that “expose someone to hatred, contempt or ridicule.” Breaching either can prove to be very costly, both in terms of money or imprisonment.

Legitimacy has more to do with logic and truth, where law is a man-made, derivative effort to try to incorporate logic and truth…not always successfully. Legitimacy is the ability to be defended with innate logic or observed fact. That’s the way I intended the word when I said: "I am a logician first, and a lawyer second."

Your second paragraph makes my case: there is no “hatred, contempt or ridicule” in the act of taking-a-knee. There is only drawing attention to the plight of others. As I said in my previous post:

Original Quill wrote:The “act” in this case is a symbolic taking of a knee - symbolic of (in the original case) America’s callous disregard for black lives.

And elsewhere:

Original Quill wrote:Taking the knee is a personal statement. It costs nothing…no money, no loss of life or limb, no clean-up, no loud noises, no property damage…not even time away from the game. So, if you oppose something so ethereal and harmless, wtf is there for you to not like? You can only be opposing the idea.

In other words, there is nothing to oppose except a plea…one to keep others from killing them. The material threat is on the other side.

Even more fundamental than your free expression laws, is the democratic tradition of your political life going back to the Magna Carta. First, you cannot have self-governance if you go about killing the opposition. Second, a shout-out of Stop killing US, is hardly an imposition of hatred, contempt or ridicule. Third, there is no cost, loss of life (except the BLM folks), no property damage, no loud noise, nor even time away from the game. There is no cost to the exercise of taking a knee.

In the absence of any material reason, what you are doing is urging suppression of free speech, purely and simply. And, because it is a plea made for a political purpose, it constitutes political suppression. Finally, when it’s a plea for being allowed to live, it is a travesty to ignore, let alone suppress.

by Fred Moletrousers Sun Jul 18, 2021 7:02 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Fred Moletrousers wrote:I think that what you are saying, though perhaps somewhat more eloquently than I, is that used in the context of my post the word “legitimate” means “conforming to the law or rules.” Oh, isn’t that what I said?

I don’t know how much latitude your First Amendment gives you in the United States, but here “freedom of speech” extends neither to words written or spoken that tend to incite racial or religious hatred or to words written or spoken that “expose someone to hatred, contempt or ridicule.” Breaching either can prove to be very costly, both in terms of money or imprisonment.

Legitimacy has more to do with logic and truth, where law is a man-made, derivative effort to try to incorporate logic and truth…not always successfully. Legitimacy is the ability to be defended with innate logic or observed fact. That’s the way I intended the word when I said: "I am a logician first, and a lawyer second."

Your second paragraph makes my case: there is no “hatred, contempt or ridicule” in the act of taking-a-knee. There is only drawing attention to the plight of others. As I said in my previous post:

Original Quill wrote:The “act” in this case is a symbolic taking of a knee - symbolic of (in the original case) America’s callous disregard for black lives.

And elsewhere:

Original Quill wrote:Taking the knee is a personal statement. It costs nothing…no money, no loss of life or limb, no clean-up, no loud noises, no property damage…not even time away from the game. So, if you oppose something so ethereal and harmless, wtf is there for you to not like? You can only be opposing the idea.

In other words, there is nothing to oppose except a plea…one to keep others from killing them. The material threat is on the other side.

Even more fundamental than your free expression laws, is the democratic tradition of your political life going back to the Magna Carta. First, you cannot have self-governance if you go about killing the opposition. Second, a shout-out of Stop killing US, is hardly an imposition of hatred, contempt or ridicule. Third, there is no cost, loss of life (except the BLM folks), no property damage, no loud noise, nor even time away from the game. There is no cost to the exercise of taking a knee.

In the absence of any material reason, what you are doing is urging suppression of free speech, purely and simply. And, because it is a plea made for a political purpose, it constitutes political suppression. Finally, when it’s a plea for being allowed to live, it is a travesty to ignore, let alone suppress.

Firstly, would you please point out precisely where I either “oppose” or “urge suppression of free speech” regarding the symbolic gesture of taking the knee? I have already said that it is a matter of personal choice, though not of MY choosing, because I will not kneel other than in the presence of my God in a church, or at Buckingham Palace in the most unlikely eventuality of Queen Elizabeth the Second conferring a knighthood upon me. Otherwise, I regard it as a medieval gesture of fealty and homage.

I must therefore assume that you believe my right to hold such opinions should be “opposed” and “suppressed” by the self-styled more enlightened.

Secondly, regarding my disputed use of the word “legitimate” in the context of freedom of speech, no matter how you may disapprove of UK criminal laws of incitement to racial hatred and civil laws of defamation, libel and slander, they exist - and for perfectly good reasons. If I publicly said or wrote that “all blacks and Asians should be rounded up and sent back to their own counties” that would almost certainly result in a criminal prosecution for racial hatred or at the very least my registration on police records as having a criminal record.

If I wrote or said that “all paedophiles should be hanged by the testicles” that would NOT be either a libel or slander, but if I wrote that “Angus Hamish McQuill is a paedophile and should be hanged by the testicles” I might confidently anticipate the arrival of a letter and writ from the said Mr McQuill’s lawyers.

How the hell can that be translated into a “suppression of free speech”?

by Syl Sun Jul 18, 2021 9:24 pm

Maddog wrote:
Syl wrote:

Sometimes I think some black people see injustice when it doesn't even exist, and in doing so they make themselves unequal.

For eg....the highest % of people in England who have refused the Covid vaccine are black.
Black people have been hit hard with needing hospital treatment and even dying from Covid.
They have been given special attention, for eg locally, some vaccination centres are predominately for black and mixed race people, staffed by black nurses and volunteers, and black staff are on hand to talk through any worries people may have.

One of the reasons given for the poor turn out is the way black people have been treated historically. They obviously get the same vaccines the whites have had....It just doesn't make sense.

There is power in being a victim. Doesn't matter if you are really a victim or not.

Yeah, the 'Me too; movement went thataway too.

by Original Quill Sun Jul 18, 2021 9:52 pm

Fred M. wrote:How the hell can that be translated into a “suppression of free speech”?

In the absence of any other reason, why not cheer them on? Or, have you any reservations...once again, what are they?

by Fred Moletrousers Mon Jul 19, 2021 9:31 am

Original Quill wrote:
Fred M. wrote:How the hell can that be translated into a “suppression of free speech”?

In the absence of any other reason, why not cheer them on? Or, have you any reservations...once again, what are they?

Cheer on who or what? Or is this a typical advocate’s loaded question aimed at getting the answer that he wants? Anyway, if it is so important to you, here goes:

The England football team? I have already said that I was sorry they lost, but otherwise I’m afraid that football holds absolutely no interest for me whatsoever. So the answer is No.

The three players who missed the penalties? Again, I’ve already said that they were just lads doing their best, but sadly their best was not good enough against their Italian counterparts. So it’s a “no” again.

Knee takers? I have said on countless occasions that in MY opinion it is a futile political gesture, but if people want to do it it’s entirely their choice. But would I cheer them on? No.

Black Lives Matter (with capitals)? It is a political, Left wing organisation with a Marxist agenda - it’s leading members have already said as much. So most definitely not.

All lives matter, regardless of race, creed or colour? Of course I would “cheer on” that concept - so it’s a “yes.”

So quill, just what “reservations” are you hinting at?

Do you yourself not hold the view that the lives of Chinese Uyghur Muslims, white Christians in radical Islamic countries or Jewish people matter just as much as those of black people?

by Original Quill Mon Jul 19, 2021 3:59 pm

Fred M. wrote:So quill, just what “reservations” are you hinting at?

What else is there? If you are not bothered by indiscriminate killing, you have no sympathy for the victim(s). It's just deductive logic.

by Syl Mon Jul 19, 2021 4:19 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Fred M. wrote:So quill, just what “reservations” are you hinting at?

What else is there? If you are not bothered by indiscriminate killing, you have no sympathy for the victim(s). It's just deductive logic.

He didn't even imply that Quill. He said ALL lives matter, that includes black as well as white.

Do you seriously think people are racist if they wont take the knee?

by Fred Moletrousers Mon Jul 19, 2021 6:06 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Fred M. wrote:So quill, just what “reservations” are you hinting at?

What else is there? If you are not bothered by indiscriminate killing, you have no sympathy for the victim(s). It's just deductive logic.

Just what part of “ALL lives matter” do you fail to understand? For someone who is so ostensibly intelligent and highly principled you are doing little but show yourself to be a closed mind bigot for whom the genuine views of others are to be deliberately twisted and misrepresented in your desperate efforts to demonstrate some form of moral and ethical superiority.

Your accusations that I am “not bothered about indiscriminate killing and have no sympathy for the victims” is an outrageous and foul lie. I would have thought that even you, as a member of a profession that is over entitled to the protection of privilege in the presentation of court cases, might have at least, in so far as polite and civilised exchange of opinions is concerned, have drawn back from presenting such a grossly untrue, offensive and disrespectful insult.

Yet in the meantime you preach endlessly about the discrimination, suffering and abuse of black American citizens to the exclusion of all else.

On the basis of your ridiculous “deductive logic” I feel entitled to ask why you yourself appear have no “sympathy” and “not to be bothered” about the equally disgusting discrimination, suffering and abuse of Jewish people, Chinese Uyghur Muslims, white Christians in radical Islamic countries, starving Yemeni children? The list is endless and affects many races, colours and creeds. Because, by God, I am bothered about them…because I truly, firmly and deeply believe that ALL lives matter.

Finally, since you have had the privilege of displaying your “deductive logic” I will claim equality…and my own logical deduction is that of the two of us it is you, the morally superior lawyer and educator Quill, who is the actual racist…and hypocrite.

by Original Quill Mon Jul 19, 2021 10:34 pm

Fred M. wrote:Just what part of “ALL lives matter” do you fail to understand?

The police are not killing whites at the rate that they are killing blacks. The Euros....Go England! - Page 4 2190311264

The rest of the All lives are not getting murdered. This is classic Jim Crow thinking. Killing black men is just like slavery or segregation, only it's absolute negative reinforcement (death) whereas slavery is diminished negative reinforcement (restraint).

by Maddog Tue Jul 20, 2021 12:57 am

Original Quill wrote:
Fred M. wrote:Just what part of “ALL lives matter” do you fail to understand?

The police are not killing whites at the rate that they are killing blacks.

The rest of the All lives are not getting murdered. This is classic Jim Crow thinking. Killing black men is just like slavery or segregation, only it's absolute negative reinforcement (death) whereas slavery is diminished negative reinforcement (restraint).

Whites are not killing blacks at the rate blacks are killing blacks.

I guess blacks are guilty of Jim Crow thinking.
Cool

by Fred Moletrousers Tue Jul 20, 2021 10:23 am

Original Quill wrote:
Fred M. wrote:Just what part of “ALL lives matter” do you fail to understand?

The police are not killing whites at the rate that they are killing blacks.

The rest of the All lives are not getting murdered. This is classic Jim Crow thinking. Killing black men is just like slavery or segregation, only it's absolute negative reinforcement (death) whereas slavery is diminished negative reinforcement (restraint).

Such atrocities may well frequently occur in YOUR country but they do not frequently occur in MY country. Police here carry guns only when they are members of highly trained specialist firearms units and any incident in which weapons are even used is automatically investigated by the independent Police Complaints Commission.

Given the record of many American police forces you have every right - in fact as a lawyer you have a duty - to campaign against indiscriminate, irresponsible and fatal use of firearms and to call on the authorities to answer to why so many such incidents result in the deaths of black people.

But I don’t live in America and I’m not an American citizen…and to me, largely because of my faith, I hold all human live as sacred.

You, on the other hand, seem to believe that so far as human life is concerned being black is deserving of greater consideration than being white, brown or yellow. Now that really IS Jim Crow thinking.

And since you keep harking back to the slave trade of two or more centuries ago, why not address your concerns to the worst slavers of the lot, African Arabs and devotees of Islam? Is that because many of them were, er, black?

The lives of black American citizens do matter to me. But so - in equal measure - do the lives of those who are NOT black. And that is something that you are clearly in no mind to accept.

by Syl Tue Jul 20, 2021 3:16 pm

I honestly think that's why Quill is often at loggerheads with everyone else re the colour situation.
He lives in a different country, or if he doesn't he has had different experiences, and obviously how we live and what we see affects the way we think.

I can say I have never personally experienced seeing anyone be racially abused, I have mixed race people in my family, have worked with all kinds of people, my nearest neighbours are Indian...they have never mentioned feeling discriminated against because of their race or colour.

Then we read of the three black English players, Mo Farah, other sportsmen and celebrities speak out about their experiences, and obviously it does happen here.

Surely all anyone of us can do is support people if we ever see it happening, though I suspect, in the UK anyway, 99% of it happens anonymously on the internet rather than in real life.
And by support, I mean speaking out, not "taking the knee'...(what a ridiculous expression that is).

by Original Quill Tue Jul 20, 2021 3:54 pm

Fred Moletrousers wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

The police are not killing whites at the rate that they are killing blacks.

The rest of the All lives are not getting murdered. This is classic Jim Crow thinking. Killing black men is just like slavery or segregation, only it's absolute negative reinforcement (death) whereas slavery is diminished negative reinforcement (restraint).

Such atrocities may well frequently occur in YOUR country but they do not frequently occur in MY country. Police here carry guns only when they are members of highly trained specialist firearms units and any incident in which weapons are even used is automatically investigated by the independent Police Complaints Commission.

Given the record of many American police forces you have every right - in fact as a lawyer you have a duty - to campaign against indiscriminate, irresponsible and fatal use of firearms and to call on the authorities to answer to why so many such incidents result in the deaths of black people.

But I don’t live in America and I’m not an American citizen…and to me, largely because of my faith, I hold all human live as sacred.

I have always said, BLM addresses a uniquely American problem. I don't know why Brits have picked up this banner and run with it. BLM protests a holdover from days of slavery, where white people with universal impunity took the lives of black people indiscriminately. I don’t even know why you, an Englishman, have embraced the position of the contra.

The issue in America is something to do with the white race. Whether it’s pure hatred for the black man, or a desperate attempt to hang on to white superior status, for some reason whites persevere in a belief of a “right” to kill blacks. It might be by police, or, as with the Georgia case of the murder of jogger Ahmaud Arbery (where the white murderers thought they had some right to stop and kill a black jogger), whites cling to a sense of righteous superiority to kill black men.

Killing is only one of the many vestiges of slavery. There are many denials of African American rights, which southern states try to legalize by use of Jim Crow laws (as we speak, the Texas legislature is considering a law that precludes blacks from voting). But, as murder is the most extreme violation, so it is the most important vestige of slavery. And, it isn’t being done by African Arabs...it's the white culture.

by Maddog Tue Jul 20, 2021 4:45 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Fred Moletrousers wrote:

Such atrocities may well frequently occur in YOUR country but they do not frequently occur in MY country. Police here carry guns only when they are members of highly trained specialist firearms units and any incident in which weapons are even used is automatically investigated by the independent Police Complaints Commission.

Given the record of many American police forces you have every right - in fact as a lawyer you have a duty - to campaign against indiscriminate, irresponsible and fatal use of firearms and to call on the authorities to answer to why so many such incidents result in the deaths of black people.

But I don’t live in America and I’m not an American citizen…and to me, largely because of my faith, I hold all human live as sacred.

I have always said, BLM addresses a uniquely American problem. I don't know why Brits have picked up this banner and run with it. BLM protests a holdover from days of slavery, where white people with universal impunity took the lives of black people indiscriminately. I don’t even know why you, an Englishman, have embraced the position of the contra.

The issue in America is something to do with the white race. Whether it’s pure hatred for the black man, or a desperate attempt to hang on to white superior status, for some reason whites persevere in a belief of a “right” to kill blacks. It might be by police, or, as with the Georgia case of the murder of jogger Ahmaud Arbery (where the white murderers thought they had some right to stop and kill a black jogger), whites cling to a sense of righteous superiority to kill black men.

Killing is only one of the many vestiges of slavery. There are many denials of African American rights, which southern states try to legalize by use of Jim Crow laws (as we speak, the Texas legislature is considering a law that precludes blacks from voting). But, as murder is the most extreme violation, so it is the most important vestige of slavery. And, it isn’t being done by African Arabs...it's the white culture.

Over 90% of the slaves that left Africa, ended up somewhere other than America.

Slavery lasted much longer in America under British rule, than American

There is nothing in the new Texas voting laws that stops anyone, of any race from voting.

You're full of shit, per as usual.

by Original Quill Tue Jul 20, 2021 5:26 pm

Maddog wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

I have always said, BLM addresses a uniquely American problem. I don't know why Brits have picked up this banner and run with it. BLM protests a holdover from days of slavery, where white people with universal impunity took the lives of black people indiscriminately. I don’t even know why you, an Englishman, have embraced the position of the contra.

The issue in America is something to do with the white race. Whether it’s pure hatred for the black man, or a desperate attempt to hang on to white superior status, for some reason whites persevere in a belief of a “right” to kill blacks. It might be by police, or, as with the Georgia case of the murder of jogger Ahmaud Arbery (where the white murderers thought they had some right to stop and kill a black jogger), whites cling to a sense of righteous superiority to kill black men.

Killing is only one of the many vestiges of slavery. There are many denials of African American rights, which southern states try to legalize by use of Jim Crow laws (as we speak, the Texas legislature is considering a law that precludes blacks from voting). But, as murder is the most extreme violation, so it is the most important vestige of slavery. And, it isn’t being done by African Arabs...it's the white culture.

Over 90% of the slaves that left Africa, ended up somewhere other than America.

Slavery lasted much longer in America under British rule, than American

I don't really care. Southern culture built a whole economy, and thus a whole culture/ideology on slavery, and subsequently segregation. The vestiges of this are why we are having the problems today.

by Maddog Tue Jul 20, 2021 5:34 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Maddog wrote:

Over 90% of the slaves that left Africa, ended up somewhere other than America.

Slavery lasted much longer in America under British rule, than American

I don't really care. Southern culture built a whole economy, and thus a whole culture/ideology on slavery, and subsequently segregation. The vestiges of this are why we are having the problems today.

Of course you don't care.

by Original Quill Tue Jul 20, 2021 5:43 pm

Maddog wrote:There is nothing in the new Texas voting laws that stops anyone, of any race from voting.

Jim Crow laws don't work that way. Jim Crow promotes ostensibly neutral laws, that they know will have an adverse effect on a certain races. Then they protest that they are doing something racially neutral. It's like the bank robber who protests, I was in the bank to withdraw from my savings account!

Spoiler:

EG, reduce the number of polling places in African-American neighborhoods; no drive-in voting because someone might be in the car who might influence the driver; no delivering water to people in long lines (made that way by reduced polling places). Shocked

by Maddog Tue Jul 20, 2021 7:36 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Maddog wrote:There is nothing in the new Texas voting laws that stops anyone, of any race from voting.

Jim Crow laws don't work that way. Jim Crow promotes ostensibly neutral laws, that they know will have an adverse effect on a certain races. Then they protest that they are doing something racially neutral. It's like the bank robber who protests, I was in the bank to withdraw from my savings account!
Spoiler:

EG, reduce the number of polling places in African-American neighborhoods; no drive-in voting because someone might be in the car who might influence the driver; no delivering water to people in long lines (made that way by reduced polling places).

You don't need drive through voting to vote.

None of that impacts black voters at all. we all have weeks to get to the polls, and the disabled can vote absentee.

The water bullshit was dropped.

by Fred Moletrousers Tue Jul 20, 2021 9:22 pm

[quote="Original Quill"]

Fred Moletrousers wrote:

Such atrocities may well frequently occur in YOUR country but they do not frequently occur in MY country. Police here carry guns only when they are members of highly trained specialist firearms units and any incident in which weapons are even used is automatically investigated by the independent Police Complaints Commission.

Given the record of many American police forces you have every right - in fact as a lawyer you have a duty - to campaign against indiscriminate, irresponsible and fatal use of firearms and to call on the authorities to answer to why so many such incidents result in the deaths of black people.

But I don’t live in America and I’m not an American citizen…and to me, largely because of my faith, I hold all human live as sacred.

I have always said, BLM addresses a uniquely American problem. I don't know why Brits have picked up this banner and run with it. BLM protests a holdover from days of slavery, where white people with universal impunity took the lives of black people indiscriminately. I don’t even know why you, an Englishman, have embraced the position of the contra.[quote][[

Because a handful of generally Left wing campaigners and the usual bunch of “celebrities” bent of gaining headlines in the mainstream media and sycophantic adulation on social media decided that it would be a good idea to “take the knee” in “solidarity” with black people suffering police brutality and murder in the USA.

Kneeling was supposedly symbolic of the action of that policeman who murdered a black man by kneeling on his neck and choking him to death.

OK, so far so good….very few of us would wish to “contra” that, even though our coppers don’t routinely carry guns and even less, choke suspects to death by kneeling on their gizzards.

Then, and largely because such behaviour was not exactly a daily occurrence in more liberal U.K., ordinary folk like myself eventually began to ask why the start of so many sporting events were being delayed by the introduction of ceremonial knee-taking, even in the playing of our national anthem - yet another American import…just like greasy Big Macs, Halloween trick or treating or Colonel Sanders calorie laden fried chicken. Ah, they said, we are demonstrating against racism and by not following our example you are obviously racist.

In other words, by not slavishly and without question following suit and aping a position more synonymous with capitulation, obeisance and fealty, we were immediately “outed” as knuckle dragging Fascists by the usual chanting, banner-waving bunch of self- appointed arbiters of our standards if behaviour.

That’s when I - and many others - gave the traditional Anglo Saxon response to these tiresome sanctimonious, holier-than-thou would-be arbiters of universal moral and ethical standards, to wit “fuck off.”

by Tommy Monk Tue Jul 20, 2021 9:26 pm

Some idiots here in UK have jumped on the bandwagon... They obviously don't realise that USA is a totally different country thousands of miles away ..

by Vintage Tue Jul 20, 2021 10:37 pm

Wish I could like Fred's post more than once. Love the traditional Anglo Saxon response, so expressive.

by Original Quill Tue Jul 20, 2021 10:55 pm

Fred M. wrote:Because a handful of generally Left wing campaigners and the usual bunch of “celebrities” bent of gaining headlines in the mainstream media and sycophantic adulation on social media decided that it would be a good idea to “take the knee” in “solidarity” with black people suffering police brutality and murder in the USA.

You've lost yourself in a sea of adjectives, which doesn't improve your point. Basically, you're arguing denial. What slavery? It never happened. Jim Crow laws...what? US? Parish the thought! That black guy in Minneapolis deserved what he got...you know how they lie! I always believe the cops.

The problem is, these things are being caught on camera. Pretty hard to rewrite the story when we all see what happened. They become less "sanctimonious, holier-than-thou would-be arbiters of universal moral and ethical standards, to wit “fuck off"...and simply, more believable. Twisted Evil

by Fred Moletrousers Wed Jul 21, 2021 1:20 am

Original Quill wrote:
Fred M. wrote:Because a handful of generally Left wing campaigners and the usual bunch of “celebrities” bent of gaining headlines in the mainstream media and sycophantic adulation on social media decided that it would be a good idea to “take the knee” in “solidarity” with black people suffering police brutality and murder in the USA.

You've lost yourself in a sea of adjectives, which doesn't improve your point. Basically, you're arguing denial. What slavery? It never happened. Jim Crow laws...what? US? Parish the thought! That black guy in Minneapolis deserved what he got...you know how they lie! I always believe the cops.

The problem is, these things are being caught on camera. Pretty hard to rewrite the story when we all see what happened. They become less "sanctimonious, holier-than-thou would-be arbiters of universal moral and ethical standards, to wit “fuck off"...and simply, more believable. [/

I
I make exactly the same point as Tommy, though he chooses the brevity and direct bluntness of the plain speaking journeyman in getting his point across - in an admirable and effective manner, if I may say so - while my own choice is to use my humble and modest skills as both a creative writer and (at least so I have been told) an entertaining and informative public speaker to paint a picture in words setting out my thoughts, observations and beliefs.

And in painting that picture I need colours - many colours…and those colours are the adjectives that you seem to dismiss as irrelevant and think that I overuse. To any communicator adjectives are beautiful as well as essential because they describe precisely those thoughts, observations and beliefs. Whether they are effective and successful or nor depends on how they are used, and all I can say in my own defence is that in my own case they have given me a lifetime of satisfaction and enjoyment - plus, I admit, a pretty good living.

Now, let’s analyse your post with a critical eye: What on earth do you mean “arguing a denial”? Not one of my posts has ever denied that slavery existed; I probably know as much about the subject, having studied seventeenth to nineteenth century history, as you do. If not more.

I’m not an expert on Jim Crow laws - that’s more of a subject for a lawyer than a journalist - but I knew enough to see that your own citation of them could equally be used to rebuff one of your own submissions.

As for that bunkum about the black guy in Minneapolis lying and deserving what he got, all I can say is that if you saw that - or anything even closely resembling it - in anything that I have posted, then pray tell me. Because, to resort to good old Anglo-Saxon, I’d be buggered if I can remember writing it.

Always believe the cops? Never in a million years - any more than I would believe a lawyer. If one said “good morning” to me I would glance out of the window to make sure the sun had risen.

by Original Quill Wed Jul 21, 2021 2:36 am

I don't fault you for being a colorful journalist. You are one of the best and I enjoy reading your posts.

But color is not a substitute for true facts and logic. You still have to color in between the lines.

by Maddog Wed Jul 21, 2021 4:10 am

Original Quill wrote:I don't fault you for being a colorful journalist. You are one of the best and I enjoy reading your posts.

But color is not a substitute for true facts and logic. You still have to color in between the lines.

No one writes more fiction on this forum than you.

Just stop. You're a fucking embarrassment..

by Vintage Wed Jul 21, 2021 8:37 am

Quill its you who is lost, in your own world of self righteous injustice that you keep projecting onto everywhere and everyone. You continuously argue apples about everything when others
are commenting on oranges, pears, grapes etc. The rest of the world is not an identikit of the US, this seems to be your biggest problem.

by Syl Wed Jul 21, 2021 11:01 am

I love Fred's posts....I wish I could be half as eloquent.
I would still be in awe of his writing even if I was dead set against his sentiments....which usually I am not. Cool

by Fred Moletrousers Wed Jul 21, 2021 12:53 pm

Original Quill wrote:I don't fault you for being a colorful journalist. You are one of the best and I enjoy reading your posts.

But color is not a substitute for true facts and logic. You still have to color in between the lines.

When I was a newspaper reporter true facts and logic were my stocks-in-trade. (Stop sniggering at the back there - I never worked for The Sun.)

When I became a specialist writer and columnist my literary mind was set free and I was able to use adjectives as they should be used; to paint a colourful picture in words describing my own thoughts, opinions and observations rather than simply quoting those of other people.

What I found so wonderful and satisfying about journalism was that it was not a single trade but a variety of roles each needing its own special technique. I was truly fortunate, having tried all of them and disliking only one…the task of sub-editing in which I was involved for only a year as part of my training.

You, as a lawyer, deal daily in true facts (the veracity of which depend largely on your client) and logic….it’s simply a matter of horses for courses, as the old English saying goes.

by Fred Moletrousers Wed Jul 21, 2021 12:55 pm

Syl wrote:I love Fred's posts....I wish I could be half as eloquent.
I would still be in awe of his writing even if I was dead set against his sentiments....which usually I am not.

Ooohhhhhh…..thank you my lady. I’m blushing.

by Original Quill Thu Jul 22, 2021 8:59 pm

Syl wrote:I love Fred's posts....I wish I could be half as eloquent.
I would still be in awe of his writing even if I was dead set against his sentiments....which usually I am not.

I do too. It's like watching a classic painter, producing a work.

by Original Quill Thu Jul 22, 2021 9:07 pm

Fred Moletrousers wrote:
Original Quill wrote:I don't fault you for being a colorful journalist. You are one of the best and I enjoy reading your posts.

But color is not a substitute for true facts and logic. You still have to color in between the lines.

When I was a newspaper reporter true facts and logic were my stocks-in-trade. (Stop sniggering at the back there - I never worked for The Sun.)

When I became a specialist writer and columnist my literary mind was set free and I was able to use adjectives as they should be used; to paint a colourful picture in words describing my own thoughts, opinions and observations rather than simply quoting those of other people.

What I found so wonderful and satisfying about journalism was that it was not a single trade but a variety of roles each needing its own special technique. I was truly fortunate, having tried all of them and disliking only one…the task of sub-editing in which I was involved for only a year as part of my training.

You, as a lawyer, deal daily in true facts (the veracity of which depend largely on your client) and logic….it’s simply a matter of horses for courses, as the old English saying goes.

Lawyers are not required to have the writing gift. So, it's not the same thing. The best brief writers write the shortest sentences, avoid modifiers and get to the point. Writers get paid for what they write, lawyers get paid to win.

by Tommy Monk Fri Jul 23, 2021 5:43 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Fred M. wrote:Just what part of “ALL lives matter” do you fail to understand?

The police are not killing whites at the rate that they are killing blacks.

The rest of the All lives are not getting murdered. This is classic Jim Crow thinking. Killing black men is just like slavery or segregation, only it's absolute negative reinforcement (death) whereas slavery is diminished negative reinforcement (restraint).

Blacks are involved in significantly higher rates of violent crime, so will in turn have significantly higher engagements with police.

by Original Quill Fri Jul 23, 2021 7:14 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

The police are not killing whites at the rate that they are killing blacks.

The rest of the All lives are not getting murdered. This is classic Jim Crow thinking. Killing black men is just like slavery or segregation, only it's absolute negative reinforcement (death) whereas slavery is diminished negative reinforcement (restraint).

Blacks are involved in significantly higher rates of violent crime, so will in turn have significantly higher engagements with police.

Whose fault is that? It was the Englishman who created America…yes, that includes its southern slave-glory. Kids are how you raise them...same with sub-cultures and races. You put them in a box and lock them off, beat them now and then, maybe lynch a few, and leave 'em to raise themselves...you get what you get.

The white man raised the black man to be what you’ve got today. Calm and rational people are trying to correct the situation and make amends. But you...it's all kill 'em or put them in jail. WTF...it costs you and I money, just to be bad. A wiser decision is to give them equality, food, housing, education, and make 'em productive, contributing participants in society in the up-and-coming generation.

We were half-way there until racially-antagonizing people woke up and started apply those countermeasure, southern standards to formerly beaten-down men/women that we were trying to lift. They made an issue of it: Make America Great Again = Make America White Again. Treat them as animals, you're going to get animals...be a gentleman to them, and you're going to get ladies and gentlemen.

It's your self-fulfilling prophecy.

by Original Quill Fri Jul 23, 2021 7:23 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

The police are not killing whites at the rate that they are killing blacks.

The rest of the All lives are not getting murdered. This is classic Jim Crow thinking. Killing black men is just like slavery or segregation, only it's absolute negative reinforcement (death) whereas slavery is diminished negative reinforcement (restraint).

Blacks are involved in significantly higher rates of violent crime, so will in turn have significantly higher engagements with police.

Not really. Blacks are more readily accused, provoked, and more readily shot at by police. Should I remind of you of George Floyd and the video of his murder?

by Tommy Monk Fri Jul 23, 2021 7:39 pm

George Floyd who was high on drugs/drink and had committed a crime by passing a counterfeit £20 bill and who was then resisting arrest...

Ok...

by Original Quill Fri Jul 23, 2021 11:04 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:

George Floyd who was high on drugs/drink and had committed a crime by passing a counterfeit £20 bill and who was then resisting arrest...

Ok...

No. Number one, that's not true.

Number two, if it were true, it would not be a capital offense, requiring capital punishment.

Number three, if it were true, police execution is a violation of due process and the 5th Amendment's: 1) right to indictment by the grand jury before any criminal charges for felonious crimes; 2) right not to be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; 3) a fair trial.

The fact that Officer Chauvin was convicted of murder proves the above three points by a jury of his peers.

by Tommy Monk Fri Jul 23, 2021 11:22 pm

It's true, don't care if you don't like it.

by Original Quill Sat Jul 24, 2021 12:37 am

Tommy Monk wrote:It's true, don't care if you don't like it.

If so, it would be a criminal offense. Can you prove it beyond a reasonable doubt?

I don't think so. Evil or Very Mad

And if you can't prove it, it didn't happen. That's why it wasn't raised as a defense at the Chauvin trial.

by Tommy Monk Sat Jul 24, 2021 2:08 am

Come off it quill... We all know the police were only there because they were called because GF had just spent counterfeit money buying cigarettes...

by Original Quill Sat Jul 24, 2021 2:52 am

Tommy Monk wrote:Come off it quill... We all know the police were only there because they were called because GF had just spent counterfeit money buying cigarettes...

So, the police were called by false pretenses. It's not the first time that has happened.

It has never been proven in a court of law that it was "counterfeit money". We have only the allegation of the criminals, and we all know how they lie.

When I was a prosecutor, if I had a dollar for every time a criminal lied and made-up facts to justify his actions, I'd be a rich man today.

Twisted Evil

by Tommy Monk Sat Jul 24, 2021 4:59 am

The shop worker called the police... The call is well documented... That is why the police attended...

The police arrived and arrested GF... but he resisted being put into the police car...

Why are you trying to deny these well documented facts...?

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