Compulsary covid jabs for care workers...or face the sack.

First topic message reminder :

Good, and it's about time.


"Covid vaccinations are to become mandatory for care home staff under plans to be announced by ministers, as they consider extending the move to all NHS staff.

The controversial measure sets up a likely battle with staff in both services and could lead to the government being sued under European human rights law or equalities legislation for breaching the freedom of people who work in caring roles to decide what they put into their bodies.

The Guardian understands that ministers will confirm they are pushing ahead with compulsory vaccination for most of the 1.5 million people working in social care in England, despite employer and staff organisations in the sector warning that it could backfire if workers quit rather than get immunised. Under the plans those working with adults will have 16 weeks to get vaccinated or face losing their jobs.

The government is also keen to make it mandatory for the 1.38 million people who are directly employed by the NHS in England to get vaccinated against Covid-19 and winter flu – proposals that have already been criticised by groups representing doctors, nurses and other staff.






https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jun/15/covid-jabs-to-become-mandatory-for-care-home-staff-in-england

Syl wrote:Double jabbed people can and do still get the virus, they can also be quite ill.
Some end up in hospital and there are some who have died from Covid. But the majority of people who are ill enough to go into hospital, and the majority of people who are now dying of Covid in the UK, are the people who are unvaccinated or people who have been vaccinated and are still a very risk of infection.

Although not people who have already had the virus...

Tommy Monk wrote:

Syl wrote:Double jabbed people can and do still get the virus, they can also be quite ill.
Some end up in hospital and there are some who have died from Covid. But the majority of people who are ill enough to go into hospital, and the majority of people who are now dying of Covid in the UK, are the people who are unvaccinated or people who have been vaccinated and are still a very risk of infection.

Although not people who have already had the virus...

You can get it twice, or more times. Just like you can with flu or a cold.

Tommy Monk wrote:

Syl wrote:Double jabbed people can and do still get the virus, they can also be quite ill.
Some end up in hospital and there are some who have died from Covid. But the majority of people who are ill enough to go into hospital, and the majority of people who are now dying of Covid in the UK, are the people who are unvaccinated or people who have been vaccinated and are still a very risk of infection.

Although not people who have already had the virus...

Change the record Tommy.
People who have had the virus can be reinfected.....and even if, as you have said, you are not afraid of catching it again, you would still be infectious to other people.

Original Quill wrote:

eddie wrote:Actually I’ve known of a at least three people, personally, who’ve been vaccinated and got covid with all the symptoms.  

Do you have a link?  That is important, because that would mean that the vaccines absolutely don't work.  Absolute exceptions are important leads.

One of my close friends caught it after her second jabs. She even came round to our house not knowing she had it. We didn't catch it. Then her husband got it. He'd had his jabs too. The vaccine does work because the symptoms are less severe. That's the whole point of it.

But around half the people ending up in hospital now are those who have had at least one jab, the rest are unvaccinated...


I wonder how many end up in hospital who have already previously had the virus...?


And Syl... Please face facts... Vaccinated people can still get it and pass it on... I am more protected by my immune system by actually having had the virus and seeing it off than someone who has not had it but just had a vaccine...

Tommy Monk wrote:


Well, given that probably around 75% of the UK population have already had covid by now, and the official death figure is around 130,000 (although a large proportion of these are deaths from other causes, not from covid, but after having tested positive for covid), then you can do the maths on CFR (my calculation is between 0.1% - 0.2%).


In UK there have been around 800 covid listed deaths for under 60 year olds with no other pre existing health conditions, and around 50 if these were under 40 with no other pre existing health conditions.


So you need to put it in perspective.


However, a bad flu pandemic, of which we have seen several over the last 100 years or so, for example, the 1918 "Spanish flu' pandemic infected around 30% of the world's population (around 500 million) and killed around 3% of the world's population (around 50 million), so can clearly be much worse. Especially if you consider what the total might be by adding up all the yearly deaths over this period.

I don't think it's relevant to compare COVID with the Spanish Flu of 1918.  Firstly, it was before access to the kind of medication we have now, and secondly, many people on the planet were living in the kind of poverty you don't even see now in third world countries.  

The other thing to take into consideration is the slow poisoning of humankind by cheap food and pollution, stress and medications etc that all undermine our immune systems.   When you say people are dying who have no underlying health issues, then you see a photo of them in the newspapers and 99 percent of them are overweight.  That in itself is an underlying health issue.   But today we accept obesity as pretty much the norm, and even celebrate it as a state of being that's beautiful.   The amount of young people with weight issues is absolutely staggering.  You expect an older person to be heavier but not a child or teenager, or young adult.  

People say...Oh, I go to the gym everyday, and I'm young and fit and don't need the jab.   I have a brother with that mindset.  But what they all seem to forget is that it's not your lungs or heart or arteries that is the problem, but your liver.   Abuse that with the wrong food, and an excess of booze and recreationals and bang goes the old immune system.   The liver is THE most important organ in our bodies, yet most people never give it a second thought.

Tommy Monk wrote:

But around half the people ending up in hospital now are those who have had at least one jab, the rest are unvaccinated...


I wonder how many end up in hospital who have already previously had the virus...?


And Syl... Please face facts... Vaccinated people can still get it and pass it on... I am more protected by my immune system by actually having had the virus and seeing it off than someone who has not had it but just had a vaccine...

From the various reports i have read, the vaccinaions give a stronger defence from catching covid, but actually being infected gives longer protection.
Research is still in early stages, how long immunity lasts isn't definitely known yet, not by scientists, and definately not by you.

Contrary to what you have previously posted, the majority of people in the UK who are in hospital or dying of the virus......are unvaccinated.
This could include people who have had the virus previously, no figures are available as yet.

HT... there were also flu pandemics in 1957 and 1968.


And Syl, come on, a vaccine only gives a tiny dose of an inert form of the virus to trigger an immune response... Having a full on hit from the actual virus and having your immune system working at full power to fight it off will most certainly give you a much better and stronger level of protection from it in the future... That is just common sense!

Tommy Monk wrote:


HT... there were also flu pandemics in 1957 and 1968.


And Syl, come on, a vaccine only gives a tiny dose of an inert form of the virus to trigger an immune response... Having a full on hit from the actual virus and having your immune system working at full power to fight it off will most certainly give you a much better and stronger level of protection from it in the future... That is just common sense!

The majority of people who catch covid have no symptoms, or like you, don't get really ill, so their immune system hasn't had much to do in the first place has it.
So....as the majority of people in hospital are unvaccinated, that could include thousands who have had the virus and now wrongly believe they are invincible....just like you.

Tommy Monk wrote:


HT... there w
ere also flu pandemics in 1957 and 1968.
Having a full on hit from the actual virus and having your immune system working at full power to fight it off will most certainly give you a much better and stronger level of protection from it in the future... That is just common sense!

Yes, that certainly works with Ebola - for about 5%, lets go with that for all viruses. Certainly cull the world's population that way.

Israel is now the world's Covid hotspot: Cases soar despite country's trail-blazing vaccine roll-out - sparking fears other highly-vaccinated countries will be hit by another wave due to jabs' waning immunity


https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9951117/Israel-worlds-Covid-hotspot-0-2-population-catching-yesterday.html

So, the vaccines don't stop you getting it, or spreading it, and the effects they do have seen to fade rapidly over time... Plus having the vaccine could kill you or cause other serious complications... And on to of this, the possible long term damage the vaccines could do are still not known...


And when you consider the deaths with covid for under 60s with no pre existing health conditions is under a 1000 here in UK, while for under 40s it is less than 100... under 20s is less than 10... And this is considering the virus has been going round here for 2 years now, and I have shown how nearly 30 million have already had it in just the last 2 months and the 4 months up to the end of 2020...


And I have already had it back in February 2020 my immune system is already now wise to it and not only offering me some protection against getting it but also ready to fight it off if I do get it... Why on earth would I go get a vaccine considering all the above...???

Tommy Monk wrote:


HT... there were also flu pandemics in 1957 and 1968.

Well, that's just it, innit?  They let flu go unchecked back in the day, and now we have recurring, annual bouts that are the result of rampant mutations...because we let the lil buggers go free and foot-loose.  Seeing that Covid is much deadlier, they're trying to stop it dead-in-its-tracks.  Stop spread, and you stop not only illness, but opportunities for mutation.

Tommy Monk wrote:And Syl, come on, a vaccine only gives a tiny dose of an inert form of the virus to trigger an immune response... Having a full on hit from the actual virus and having your immune system working at full power to fight it off will most certainly give you a much better and stronger level of protection from it in the future... That is just common sense!

Nonsense.  The immune system just needs a cue...not bulk. The key is to get the design down, not the mass.  Once the immune system figgers a virus out, it's got the template on file.  It's the program, not the bulk, that the immune system needs.

Covid is not more deadly.


I've shown infection numbers here in UK and death numbers for under 60s with no previous health conditions.

I end up going round in circles with some on here because they just don't listen or face the facts.

Tommy Monk wrote:Covid is not more deadly.

Yes it is.

Tommy Monk wrote:


I end up going round in circles with some on here because they just don't listen or face the facts.

You go round in circles because, in spite of all the research that has been done over the last 18 months, you still think you are the expert and haven't taken in any expert medical opinions....just stuck to your own, even when you have been proved wrong.

I've not been proved wrong.

gelico wrote:

Israel is now the world's Covid hotspot: Cases soar despite country's trail-blazing vaccine roll-out - sparking fears other highly-vaccinated countries will be hit by another wave due to jabs' waning immunity


https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9951117/Israel-worlds-Covid-hotspot-0-2-population-catching-yesterday.html

It's still far safer to be vaccinated in Israel.....

"Taking a sample from August 16, 2021:

154.7 severely ill patients in Israel were unvaccinated.
48.4 severely ill patients were partially vaccinated
And 19.8 severely ill patients were fully vaccinated"


https://www.dw.com/en/covid-why-are-infections-rising-in-israel/a-58887131

Tommy Monk wrote:I've not been proved wrong.

Yes you have.

Tommy Monk wrote:


I've not been proved wrong.

People who adopt this approach........always think they have not been proved wrong.

I provide scientific facts and figures as well as logic and reason.


Others provide hysteria and hyperbole.

Tommy Monk wrote:I provide scientific facts and figures as well as logic and reason.

Others provide hysteria and hyperbole.

Most of the time you provide your own unsubstantiated opinion. either with no facts whatsoever, or a single fact that ignores the overwhelming data to the contrary.

No, I cut through the bullshit by providing relevant points of fact and reasoned logic.


While others are stuck in the quagmire of hysteria and hyperbole.

Tommy Monk wrote:No, I cut through the bullshit by providing relevant points of fact and reasoned logic.

While others are stuck in the quagmire of hysteria and hyperbole.

No you don't. Your theories are convoluted and confused.

Come on quill... Make your mind up... Either I'm concise or convoluted... You can't have it both ways...


I always back up what I say, with evidence.

UK...

"Vaccine passports are going to be introduced at big venues to avoid winter closures, a minister has told Sky News.

Speaking to Trevor Phillips on Sunday, Nadhim Zahawi said the government wanted to avoid a situation where businesses continually had to open and close their doors at short notice."





https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/coronavirus/vaccine-passports-will-be-introduced-at-big-venues-to-avoid-winter-closures-minister-says/ar-AAO75X8?ocid=msedgdhp&pc=U531

This is totally unnecessary and could well do more harm to the trade than good.


I've already shown how most of the UK have already had covid by now... I have shown how 9 million have had it in just the last two months alone... And how nearly 20 million had it in the 4 months up to the end of 2020.

Tommy Monk wrote:Come on quill... Make your mind up... Either I'm concise or convoluted... You can't have it both ways...

You are confused and convoluted...that's the point. Theories are supposed to grow out of facts. With you, the theory is invented in your head, and then you grasp the occasional fact because it appears to support or confirm your ideas. But alas, with you it's always half-truths, anomalies and exceptions...never the whole story.

Yet you have never shown anything I've said to be wrong...

Tommy Monk wrote:Yet you have never shown anything I've said to be wrong...

I'd say Syl has shown everything you've said to be wrong. I view myself as adding a few bits, here and there. But she has fully, and excellently shown where you are wrong.

No she hasn't... She has just repeated the media waffle and hysterical hyperbole...

And let me remind you of one of your recent posts...


"Vaccinated people don't get sick."

Original Quill wrote:

Tommy Monk wrote:Yet you have never shown anything I've said to be wrong...

I'd say Syl has shown everything you've said to be wrong.  I view myself as adding a few bits, here and there.  But she has fully, and excellently shown where you are wrong.

Thank you Quill, I gave you a  for such high praise.

Not really high praise if it comes from quill... He posted only a couple of days ago that vaccinated people don't get sick...

Tommy Monk wrote:



Not really high praise if it comes from quill... He posted only a couple of days ago that vaccinated people don't get sick...

Quill and I disagree as much as we agree (maybe more) so any praise, high or low, is good.

Not from quill on this subject as he hasn't a clue about it...


He said "vaccinated people can't get sick" and then praised your posts as absolute facts...


That is more of a slap in the face on this topic.

Tommy Monk wrote:


Not from quill on this subject as he hasn't a clue about it...


He said "vaccinated people can't get sick" and then praised your posts as absolute facts...


That is more of a slap in the face on this topic.

You have said no much that is wrong in this thread I'm surprised your face isn't red raw.

Syl wrote:

Tommy Monk wrote:

Not from quill on this subject as he hasn't a clue about it...

He said "vaccinated people can't get sick" and then praised your posts as absolute facts...

That is more of a slap in the face on this topic.

You have said so much that is wrong in this thread I'm surprised your face isn't red raw.

What you have done is reverse-engineer your theories...starting with your conclusion, you have worked backwards, picking up any facts here and there that might conveniently fit your thesis.

That is why you appear confused and convoluted...what makes that? You've let convenience drive your theory, not a system, and as a result it looks like a patchwork quilt, with half-truths, anomalies and exceptions...never the whole story.

Waffle...


I won't take any lectures from you when you post such nonsense as "vaccinated people can't get sick".

The latest data coming out is that a vaccinated person is more likely to contract and pass on the Delta covid strain than someone who has had the virus and recovered from it.

https://www.reuters.com/business/healthcare-pharmaceuticals/british-study-shows-covid-19-vaccine-efficacy-wanes-under-delta-2021-08-18/

From your link:

Oxford Univ. wrote:"Both of these vaccines [the Pfizer-BioNTech or the AstraZeneca vaccine], at two doses, are still doing really well against Delta... When you start very, very high, you got a long way to go," said Sarah Walker, an Oxford professor of medical statistics and chief investigator for the survey.

Quote Quill...

"Vaccinated people can't get sick"

Tommy Monk wrote:

Quote Quill...

"Vaccinated people can't get sick"

As your article shows.

All you are showing is you either can't read/understand the facts on covid.

Tommy Monk wrote:All you are showing is you either can't read/understand the facts on covid.

Here again, you have searched long and hard for some factoid morsel that contradicts the overwhelming truth about Delta-Covid.  All I did was quietly point out where your own article urges that the contrary to be overwhelming: both vaccines work astoundingly well against the Delta! variant!.

Look, it's true if one looks long enough, and hard enough, one can find some lonely factoid that constitutes an exception.  But, tom, you take that lonely factoid and build it into a fookin' religion.  Your own article says that's not the case.  It takes great pains to deflate your theory.

Tommy Monk wrote:

Quote Quill...

"Vaccinated people can't get sick"

Do you still think this is true...?


Can you provide any credible sources for your original claim of this being true...?


Or will you now admit that you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about, and admit that you just made up your claim that "vaccinated people can't get I'll"... And have no credible scientific research/facts to back up your above claim...?

Tommy Monk wrote:

Tommy Monk wrote:

Quote Quill...

"Vaccinated people can't get sick"

Do you still think this is true...?

In context, yes. As your article says:

Both of these vaccines [the Pfizer-BioNTech or the AstraZeneca vaccine], at two doses, are still doing really well against Delta... When you start very, very high, you got a long way to go," said Sarah Walker, an Oxford professor of medical statistics and chief investigator for the survey.

Original Quill wrote:

Tommy Monk wrote:

Do you still think this is true...?

In context, yes.  As your article says:

Both of these vaccines [the Pfizer-BioNTech or the AstraZeneca vaccine], at two doses, are still doing really well against Delta... When you start very, very high, you got a long way to go," said Sarah Walker, an Oxford professor of medical statistics and chief investigator for the survey.

In context. When "can't" has a new meaning.

Jesus you are full of shit.