Should we all have to carry a Covid vaccination passport in the future?

I would be all for it.

No!

Tommy Monk wrote:


No!

Frankly, Tommy, I can’t see why not. I seem to recall that donkeys’ years ago when I went abroad, and particularly so some African countries, I had to prove that I had been vaccinated against yellow fever.

Mind you, the RAF had once vaccinated me against a whole range of exotic and terrifying diseases - and then posted me to a far from exotic training base in the Midlands - so I had been well trained against grumbling about a little prick or two.

Tommy Monk wrote:


No!

Well if it does come to pass, you will  be curtailed as to where you can go and what you can do.

Syl wrote:I would be all for it.

I dont have a problem with it you need documentation of vaccinations (basically a passport) already to visit some country's anyway i really dont understand why its such a contested issue.

Korben wrote:

Syl wrote:I would be all for it.

I dont have a problem with it you need documentation of vaccinations (basically a passport) already to visit some country's anyway i really dont understand why its such a contested issue.

Human nature being what is is, some people selfishly (imo) refuse to be vaccinated, they would rather risk their own health, and more importantly other peoples.

I would bet when they realised  they would not be welcome in their favourite clubs or  holiday destinations they would soon  be rolling their sleeves up for the jab.

Tommy Monk wrote:


No!

I like your brevity.  

I'm sorta with Tommy on this.  While I rhink I will get the shot, and think everyone else should, my DNA is anti force and pro free will.  Protect yourself and leave others be.

Maddog wrote:

Tommy Monk wrote:


No!

I like your brevity.  

I'm sorta with Tommy on this.  While I rhink I will get the shot, and think everyone else should, my DNA is anti force and pro free will.  Protect yourself and leave others be.

It is free will whether you have the vaccine or not.

Maddog wrote:

Tommy Monk wrote:


No!

I like your brevity.  

I'm sorta with Tommy on this.  While I rhink I will get the shot, and think everyone else should, my DNA is anti force and pro free will.  Protect yourself and leave others be.

I am glad you will have a vaccination

Unfortunately the virus doesn't care who gets infected and not having a vaccine puts others at risk not just your self ,vaccinations are important because they limit the number of people that can be infected and can eliminate threats. remember polio and measles where at epidemic proportions in America indeed the world until mass vaccinations against them and other deadly infections started and many have all but been eliminated

however the anti vaccine mob have putt thouse gains at risk and is why we are seeing the re-emergence of these diseases

Tommy is under the impression that because he thinks he has had the virus himself, he won't need the vaccination.

He is wrong of course, his antibodies after being infected may protect him for a time (no one is clear how long) but like everyone else he will need the vaccine in order to protect himself and others.

He won't accept that even if his immune system is still protecting him he could still unknowingly be reinfected and pass on the virus to others.


https://www.itv.com/news/2021-01-14/covid-immunity-could-last-five-months-but-people-can-still-pass-virus-to-others

Syl wrote:I would be all for it.

It merely consolidates all the documentation you must have in order to travel. If you must prove vaccinations anyway in order to travel, why not keep such verifications in one place?

Original Quill wrote:

Syl wrote:I would be all for it.

It merely consolidates all the documentation you must have in order to travel.  If you must prove vaccinations anyway in order to travel, why not keep such verifications in one place?  

Apart from travel, would you be happy to see proof of vaccination in other places Quill?

Syl wrote:

Original Quill wrote:

It merely consolidates all the documentation you must have in order to travel.  If you must prove vaccinations anyway in order to travel, why not keep such verifications in one place?  

Apart from travel, would you be happy to see proof of vaccination in other places Quill?

What other places would have the same overlap of purpose? A state has a duty to view citizenship authorization (ie, a passport) and a right to verify that a person who is entering is not going to spread a virus. If you wish to enter their country, these are the mechanics.

The question is different from a question of rights. Rights are pursuant to a citizen's allegiance, and border agents are not asking for allegiance...just legal, polite and peaceful conduct.

Nobody forces me to have a flu vaccine every year "to protect other people"... people have a flu vaccine to protect themselves... And I see this exactly the same way.


And Syl, my body has experienced this new virus and successfully seen it off once, my immune system is now stronger and wiser against it already... And if all the older and vulnerable groups have been vaccinated, then what does it matter if some other people get a virus every now and then for a few days, which has no symptoms in up to 86% of cases and like having a bit of a cold for the rest?

A Dutch court on Tuesday told the government to immediately lift a nationwide coronavirus curfew that sparked the worst riots in the Netherlands for decades.

The government wrongly used emergency powers to bring in the first curfew since the Nazi occupation in World War II, a judge at The Hague district court ruled.

The case was launched by the Viruswaarheid (Virus Truth) group, which has led a series of protests against coronavirus measures in the Netherlands.

"The curfew must be lifted immediately," the court said in a statement.

"The curfew is a far-reaching violation of the right to freedom of movement and privacy... This requires a very careful decision-making process."

The government can challenge the decision but any appeal would not suspend the judge's order, a spokesman for the court was quoted as telling the ANP news agency.

The 9:00 pm to 4:30 am curfew started on January 23 and was extended last week until March 2.

Three nights of riots erupted after the curfew began, with police using water cannon and tear gas against protesters in cities including Amsterdam, Rotterdam and Eindhoven.

There was no immediate response from the government -- which is currently sitting in a caretaker capacity ahead of elections on March 17 after resigning over a child benefits scandal.

- 'Not legitimate' -

The court said that the "introduction of the curfew did not invoke the special urgency required" to use the emergency laws that it used to bring in the restrictions without going through the lower and upper houses of parliament.

Curfews were for use in sudden emergencies such as a dyke breach, the judge said.


https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20210216-dutch-court-orders-government-to-lift-covid-curfew

If you live in a society generally you expect certain things to happen which affects the whole of that society to keep you and your loved ones secure and safe, this takes the majority to agree to
so I reckon if you enjoy that positive in your life you have to accept co operating with some things you may think are a negative in your life for the sake of the majority. If you are not prepared for that, fine but you have to take the consequences of being censured in that society for that reason or maybe you'd be better living outside of that society.

Vintage wrote:If you live in a society generally you expect certain things to happen which affects the whole of that society to keep you and your loved ones secure and safe, this takes the majority to agree to
so I reckon if you enjoy that positive in your life you have to accept co operating with some things you may think are a negative in your life for the sake of the majority. If you are not prepared for that, fine but you have to take the consequences of being censured in that society for that reason or maybe you'd be better living outside of that society.

unfortunately some people just want all of the benefits of society and none of the responsibility

Tommy Monk wrote:

Nobody forces me to have a flu vaccine every year "to protect other people"... people have a flu vaccine to protect themselves... And I see this exactly the same way.


And Syl, my body has experienced this new virus and successfully seen it off once, my immune system is now stronger and wiser against it already... And if all the older and vulnerable groups have been vaccinated, then what does it matter if some other people get a virus every now and then for a few days, which has no symptoms in up to 86% of cases and like having a bit of a cold for the rest?

You continuously compare Covid19 to the flu Tommy.
Facts are in the UK flu doesn't kill 120 thousand people in a year (average yearly flu and related illness deaths in the UK is 17,000)  and neither does it kill two and a half million people globally. Flu doesn't spread like this virus has, leaving many thousand in hospitals for months, so straining the NHS to breaking point for getting on 12 months.

People who have had the virus still need to be vaccinated, if not for themselves, then to prevent spreading it around if they were to be reinfected.

Read the links (or google) and listen to what the experts say instead of thinking you know it all.

Original Quill wrote:

Syl wrote:

Apart from travel, would you be happy to see proof of vaccination in other places Quill?

What other places would have the same overlap of purpose?  A state has a duty to view citizenship authorization (ie, a passport) and a right to verify that a person who is entering is not going to spread a virus.  If you wish to enter their country, these are the mechanics.

The question is different from a question of rights.  Rights are pursuant to a citizen's allegiance, and border agents are not asking for allegiance...just legal, polite and peaceful conduct.

Could it not be possible in the future (maybe stretching it a bit but possible) that workplaces, especially paid carers and NHS staff, other places of entertainment, hotels etc, could insist that staff or customers have proof of vaccination before employment or admittance?

It may be that this virus will mutate to a cold like illness for all, maybe not but it will be around like the flu. I get a flu jab because I don't particularly want it and I don't particularly want anyone else to get it, it kills some, makes some very ill, makes others fairly ill . Why as a good citizen enjoying the fruits of society, would you not want to help others even if you think you are personally ok. If you only think of your personal rights you don't deserve what society gives you.

Vintage wrote:It may be that this virus will mutate to a cold like illness for all, maybe not but it will be around like the flu. I get a flu jab because I don't particularly want it and I don't particularly want anyone else to get it, it kills some, makes some very ill, makes others fairly ill . Why as a good citizen enjoying the fruits of society, would you not want to help others even if you think you are personally ok.  If you only think of your personal rights you don't deserve what society gives you.

I honestly think some people are too stupid or too selfish to think outside of their own little world.
This I'm all right Jack....sod you attitude is awful, and when it could culminate in killing someone, which it does, it's not only selfish it's dangerous.

Would you have unprotected sex if you had HIV? Well dont bloody come and stand breathing down my neck if you refuse to be vaccinated then.

There was a bad flu year in 1968 that killed around 2 million people worldwide, and that was when the global population was less than half what it is today.


And the flu kills estimated 1 million worldwide every year and nobody bats an eyelid...


Nobody is restricted from doing anything or going anywhere because they haven't had a flu vaccination... Which is never 100% effective anyway, and also only offers limited protection for a couple of strains every year...

Syl wrote:

Original Quill wrote:

What other places would have the same overlap of purpose?  A state has a duty to view citizenship authorization (ie, a passport) and a right to verify that a person who is entering is not going to spread a virus.  If you wish to enter their country, these are the mechanics.

The question is different from a question of rights.  Rights are pursuant to a citizen's allegiance, and border agents are not asking for allegiance...just legal, polite and peaceful conduct.

Could it not be  possible in the future (maybe stretching it a bit but possible) that workplaces, especially paid carers and  NHS staff,  other places of entertainment, hotels etc, could insist that staff or customers have proof of vaccination before employment or admittance?

There are rights and their are privileges.  If your job requires a license, that is a privilege for which you should be compensated.  But that is a state agency that requires it.

As for non-licensed work, or customers to a hotel, night club or restaurant, that is a private transaction.  If the owners "insist that staff or customers have proof of vaccination before employment or admittance," it depends on how popular your place is, and what the market will bear.  You can always go somewhere else.

I think it's possible in future that  some places could want proof of vaccination before they hired you or admitted you into their premises.

Alternatively, if and when this virus is tamed, people may fall back into the lifestyle they had pre pandemic....till the next one comes along.

Syl wrote:

Maddog wrote:

I like your brevity.  

I'm sorta with Tommy on this.  While I rhink I will get the shot, and think everyone else should, my DNA is anti force and pro free will.  Protect yourself and leave others be.

It is free will whether you have the vaccine or not.

Yeah, sorta. I mean if you can't really function in society if you don't get it, it's not really free will.

Maddog wrote:

Syl wrote:

It is free will whether you have the vaccine or not.

Yeah, sorta.  I mean if you can't really function in society if you don't get it, it's not really free will.

If you murder someone in society and get sentenced to die, it's not really free will, is it?

Now we're just arguing over degrees.

Original Quill wrote:

Maddog wrote:

Yeah, sorta.  I mean if you can't really function in society if you don't get it, it's not really free will.

If you murder someone in society and get sentenced to die, it's not really free will, is it?

Now we're just arguing over degrees.

What?

Maddog wrote:

Syl wrote:

It is free will whether you have the vaccine or not.

Yeah, sorta.  I mean if you can't really function in society if you don't get it, it's not really free will.

Free will works both ways though.

If I run a small business and I want to protect myself and my staff from catching an active virus for which there is a free vaccination available which will stop the spread, I am entitled surely.

Maddog wrote:

Original Quill wrote:

If you murder someone in society and get sentenced to die, it's not really free will, is it?

Now we're just arguing over degrees.

What?

I think Quill is pointing out "free Will is an illusion they are many many things you cant do, free will or not From murder to abortions from driving to suicide to use the extreams free will only extends to what the society you live in will permit

Korben wrote:

Maddog wrote:

What?

I think Quill is pointing out "free Will is an illusion they are many many things you cant do, free will or not From murder to abortions from driving to suicide to use the extreams free will only extends to what the society you live in will permit

Ok free will to do what you like that doesn't actively harm others.

Maddog wrote:

Korben wrote:
I think Quill is pointing out "free Will is an illusion they are many many things you cant do, free will or not From murder to abortions from driving to suicide to use the extreams free will only extends to what the society you live in will permit

Ok free will to do what you like that doesn't actively harm others.  

But even when it doesn't harm others some things are restricted ,for instance i can Cant have sex in the street(not that i would ) or pee in a bush ,covid has the potential to hurt/kill many people way more than the flu ,and why In my opinion it should me mandatory much like the MMR vaccines children had at school to combat the spread of measles,mumps,and rubella

I believe laws should be rooted in some harm to society, in order to be legitimate.  Even anti-abortionists invent a metaphysical 'life-at-conception', in order to justify their prohibition of abortion.  And most Christian 'blue laws' have lost support because they admit that religion is metaphysical (aided by the First Amendment).

Generally, vaccinations are a matter of choice, except where spread and severity are involved.  You can spread a cold, but it's not very severe.  A broken back is severe, but it doesn't spread.  There are no restrictions in those cases.

But when a malady is severe enough, and involves spread—like, say, poliomyelitis, small pox or covid-19—vaccinations should be mandatory.  I don’t think people intentionally target people with viruses, like guns, but it is very much like going out into the street and recklessly firing off a firearm, repeatedly, in random directions.  You are a danger to society.

Korben wrote:

Maddog wrote:

Ok free will to do what you like that doesn't actively harm others.  

But even when it doesn't harm others some things are restricted ,for instance i can have sex in the street(not that i would ) or pee in a bush ,covid has the potential to hurt/kill many people way more than the flu ,and why In my opinion it should me mandatory much like the MMR vaccines children had at school to combat the spread of measles,mumps,and rubella

I don't think any vaccines are mandatory here, if you claim a religious exemption.

Original Quill wrote:I believe laws should be rooted in some harm to society, in order to be legitimate.  Even anti-abortionists invent a metaphysical 'life-at-conception', in order to justify their prohibition of abortion.  And most Christian 'blue laws' have lost support because they admit that religion is metaphysical (aided by the First Amendment).

Generally, vaccinations are a matter of choice, except where spread and severity are involved.  You can spread a cold, but it's not very severe.  A broken back is severe, but it doesn't spread.  There are no restrictions in those cases.

But when a malady is severe enough, and involves spread—like, say, poliomyelitis, small pox or covid-19—vaccinations should be mandatory.  I don’t think people intentionally target people with viruses, like guns, but it is very much like going out into the street and recklessly firing off a firearm, repeatedly, in random directions.  You are a danger to society.

I think this virus goes away anyway, once we hit herd immunity. I think there are enough people that have had it, or will get the vaccine that there is no need to force people to get it. Lets focus on getting those that want the vaccine, vaccinated.

But Viruses dont go away, at most they lay dormant till the right conditions comes along. Covid is not going away people need to accept this ,the best we can do is aggressively limit people exposed, and if possible vaccinate against them ,but that is not always a option ....see Ebola ,the then we have to contend with new pandemics that will without doubt be coming down the pipe line.and because of mass travel we are playing Russian roulette with nature,and Nature knows what chamber the bullet is in .its only a matter of time before we see the script of a disaster movie like The Andromida strain,28 days,twelve monkeys ect come true

Even if this virus is here to stay (which according to most scientists it certainly is)  I would never go along with forcing people to have a vaccination they don't want.

You can't force a useless parent to be sterilised,  and you can't force someone to have a jab.

What you can do is protect yourself as much as possible from potential spreaders.
So if a country refuses entry to the none vaccinated, and a workplace refuses to employ the none vaccinated, if you want to visit that country or work for that company....there is a solution.

I understand your point ,but being sterilized isn't something than is highly infections and deadly

Korben wrote:I understand your point ,but being sterilized isn't something than is highly infections and deadly

I know it's not the same thing, but I think just as forcibly sterilising someone would be overstepping a persons human rights, forcibly vaccinating someone against their will would be classed the same.

The onus should be on society to protect the population in other ways.

Maddog wrote:

Korben wrote:
But even when it doesn't harm others some things are restricted ,for instance i can have sex in the street(not that i would ) or pee in a bush ,covid has the potential to hurt/kill many people way more than the flu ,and why In my opinion it should me mandatory much like the MMR vaccines children had at school to combat the spread of measles,mumps,and rubella

I don't think any vaccines are mandatory here, if you claim a religious exemption.

That's the complication with the First Amendment I mentioned above^. The Constitution prohibits interference with religious practice, and if you can show that vaccination does interfere, it's unconstitutional. Unfortunately, there's an inevitable conflict between science and metaphysics...and religion certainly is metaphysical.

Maddog wrote:

Original Quill wrote:I believe laws should be rooted in some harm to society, in order to be legitimate. Even anti-abortionists invent a metaphysical 'life-at-conception', in order to justify their prohibition of abortion. And most Christian 'blue laws' have lost support because they admit that religion is metaphysical (aided by the First Amendment).

Generally, vaccinations are a matter of choice, except where spread and severity are involved. You can spread a cold, but it's not very severe. A broken back is severe, but it doesn't spread. There are no restrictions in those cases.

But when a malady is severe enough, and involves spread—like, say, poliomyelitis, small pox or covid-19—vaccinations should be mandatory. I don’t think people intentionally target people with viruses, like guns, but it is very much like going out into the street and recklessly firing off a firearm, repeatedly, in random directions. You are a danger to society.

I think this virus goes away anyway, once we hit herd immunity. I think there are enough people that have had it, or will get the vaccine that there is no need to force people to get it. Lets focus on getting those that want the vaccine, vaccinated.

The virus doesn't go away with herd immunity. It's just that there are fewer and fewer encounters for it to latch onto a living organism. The virus is a parasite. If you fill the herd with more and more immunized persons, there are fewer opportunities for it to find a vulnerable, and thus receptive host.

It's very much like what we are doing to species that are approaching extinction. We aren’t hunting and killing them, like the old days with the buffalo. We are encroaching on their territory, and squeezing them out. We, the immunized persons, are encroaching on the territory of the virus and squeezing them out.

But people can be reinfected....and as we see the virus mutates ianyway, so it's more complicated.

Syl wrote:But people can be reinfected....and as we see the virus mutates ianyway, so it's more complicated.

Consider it a new species. Very much like the flu (only far more deadly), it mutates annually, and thereby avoids the immuno-defenses that nature has give us, or we have developed on our own.

Every year a new strain of the flu comes along, and we must march down to the physician's office and receive an inoculation. Mutation, and reinfection is the reason, but in reality we treat it as a new flu (bird flu, swine flu, Hawaiian flu, H1N1, H3N2v, etc.). They are really the same microbe, mutating:

UAB wrote:According to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC), there are four types of flu viruses: influenza A, B, C, and D. The seasonal flu viruses that humans face every winter season in the United States are caused by human influenza A. Influenza A viruses are categorized as either the hemagglutinin subtype or the neuraminidase subtype based on the proteins involved, and there are 18 distinct subtypes of hemagglutinin and 11 distinct subtypes of neuraminidase. Influenza A is the primary cause of flu epidemics, and they constantly change and are difficult to predict.

https://www.uabmedicine.org/-/flu-strains-explained-and-how-the-vaccine-works#:~:text=Understanding%20Flu%20Types,caused%20by%20human%20influenza%20A.

There are many, many relatively novel flu strains circulating primarily in Asia, ready to wantonly exchange genetic information, producing a new, lethal flu, to which people have no immunity whatsoever. https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/molecules-to-medicine/h1n-what-wading-through-the-alphabet-soup-of-flu-names/ If we consider it a new species, as we do annually, it's not complicated. It's simply a reiteration of last year’s infection, mutated just enough to escape our immune systems.

Maddog wrote:

Syl wrote:

Maddog wrote:

I like your brevity.  

I'm sorta with Tommy on this.  While I rhink I will get the shot, and think everyone else should, my DNA is anti force and pro free will.  Protect yourself and leave others be.

It is free will whether you have the vaccine or not.

Yeah, sorta.  I mean if you can't really function in society if you don't get it, it's not really free will.

Whoa, kind of like how for most people, having a job isn't an act of free will, but something necessary to function in society.

Meaning that workers unhappy with their working conditions shouldn't be reasonably expected to simply quit and find another job.

I completely support the freedom of countries and the people who govern them to protect themselves from visitors who haven't reasonably demonstrated they're as safe as can be from Covid infection. If that means requiring a Covid vaccination to travel, that is in no way unreasonable. It's just two injections of inert virus and it's perfectly safe.

Just to digress a moment.
I have just watched the film Contagion on TV.

It was eerily accurate as to how the Covid19 pandemic was thought to have started, spread, and progressed, ...and it was made 10 years ago.

Ben Reilly wrote:

Maddog wrote:

Yeah, sorta.  I mean if you can't really function in society if you don't get it, it's not really free will.

Whoa, kind of like how for most people, having a job isn't an act of free will, but something necessary to function in society.

Meaning that workers unhappy with their working conditions shouldn't be reasonably expected to simply quit and find another job.

What? Do you think you should be given something of value for sitting on your ass?

I ask for nothing I haven't worked for. But I guess I'm a throwback to a prehistoric time.

I'm saying that since having a job is a necessity for getting by, jobs should be a bit safer and more secure than they are in America.

In the UK, there's no such thing as at-will employment, and that hasn't kept the UK from being the world's sixth-largest economy, trailing countries like the U.S., China and India which have much larger populations.

But back on topic (I realize I led us off topic, sorry) -- there are already so many countries you can't visit without having vaccines against certain diseases, it only makes sense that a disease infecting the entire world would prompt a need to be vaccinated before you can travel over borders.

The UK's even talking about internal vaccine passports!

Syl wrote:I would be all for it.

Well I think it’s entirely wrong to make people have a vaccine agasint their will or to penalise for lack of one.

eddie wrote:

Syl wrote:I would be all for it.

Well I think it’s entirely wrong to make people have a vaccine agasint their will or to penalise for lack of one.

Like, people should have the freedom to shoot their guns in any direction, and we don't care about others.

If anything, we should should be able to sue them for damaging our expensive bullets.