Mass shooting in Florida high school; 17 dead

Yahoo News wrote:Sheriff: At Least 17 Dead In Florida High School Shooting; Ex-Student In Custody, ID’d  
Lisa de Moraes•February 14, 2018

UPDATED, 3:25 PM: Broward County Sheriff Scott Israel said at least 17 people are dead and more than a dozen wounded in the school shooting in Parkland, FL. He said 12 bodies were found inside the school, two outside the building, another on a street near the school and two died at a hospital.

The suspect has been identified as Nikolas Cruz, 19, a former student at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School who was expelled for disciplinary reasons. He is in police custody. Israel said police have recovered an AR-15 assault rifle they believe was used in the attack and that the suspect had “multiple magazines.”

PREVIOUSLY, 2:13 PM: Campus building are not safe to be cleared until the SWAT team on site says it’s safe and clear, he added. Students are still in the school building; Israel instructed parents looking for their child to go to a nearby Marriott, to which students are being transported as they are evacuated.

A male suspect, about 18 years old is in custody; he was apprehended without incident off campus in a nearby community, Israel said. The shooting suspect was, at various times during the shooting, outside and inside the building. He is a former student at the school.

Fox News Channel’s Shep Smith reported the suspect, who “knew the lay of the land” at the campus, was taken to a local hospital and was  “being treated for we don’t know,” and will then be taken for processing.

TV news outlets abruptly dropped Washington-centric coverage Wednesday afternoon when a shooter attacked students and staff at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School in Parkland, Florida on Wednesday afternoon. Quick word of at least 20 shot in the school or on the campus triggered TV news pundit talk of Columbine High School massacre of 1999 in which 12 students and one teacher were murdered, and another 24 injured, by two heavily armed students who then committed suicide.

Cable news networks showed helicopter footage of ambulances swarming the area, victims being tended to on sidewalks, and a SWAT team heading with weapons drawn toward the high school attended by about 3K students. Dozens of teens could be seen running or walking from the building, some with hands raised over their heads to signal they did not have a weapon.

More than an hour after first reports of the shooting, local sheriff tweeted to warning the gunman, who had shot into the school from outside the building, still was at large:

Follow @browardsheriff for latest info on the #stonemanshooting. Shooter still at large.

Multiple students interviewed on CNN said students began running out of the building after someone pulled a fire alarm in the school about 10 minutes before end of school day; one reported they were told over the school’s intercom system to evacuate the building. As they exited, shots were heard,  students told the network affiliate’s reporter.

One distraught mother marveled the network the city had just been named safest place to live in Florida.

White House said Failing Cheeto-Faced Ferret-Wearing Shit Gibbon had been alerted:

From Deputy Press Secretary Lindsay Walters:

The President has been made aware of the school shooting in Florida. We are monitoring the situation. Our thoughts and prayers are with those affected.

Donald Trump Finally Breaks Silence, Scolds Press For Not Knowing He's "Totally Opposed To Domestic Violence"
https://www.yahoo.com/news/tv-networks-jump-florida-high-210531879.html

Maddog wrote:

veya_victaous wrote:

Maddog wrote:

Own guns, or don't own guns. I don't care. And no amount of your whining will ever make me care if you own guns.  

Which implicitly admits to No amount of Whining ever making you care about Kids lives either

Cause it's not Guns or No Guns
It's kids can safely go to school or kids get shot at school
Your preference is Kids getting Shot at school

No, my preference is no one gets shot unless they are harming another individual. Nice try though.

So again. Own guns, or don't own guns. I don't care what you do.  

veya_victaous wrote:

Maddog wrote:

No, my preference is no one gets shot unless they are harming another individual. Nice try though.

So again. Own guns, or don't own guns. I don't care what you do.  

In REALITY that is just not an option

this comes back to being sensible grown ups
You can only pick based on real options

Maddog wrote:
I'm pretty sure you could refrain from shooting people, that's why I don't care how many guns you have.  

I don't believe in collective judgement on the many because of the actions of the few.

Original Quill wrote:

Maddog wrote:
I'm pretty sure you could refrain from shooting people, that's why I don't care how many guns you have.  

I don't believe in collective judgement on the many because of the actions of the few.

I don't know if it's judgment as much as simple prudence.  Really, all it takes is one misguided soul, and you've got 17 dead, or whatever incident you wish to raise.  But the more guns that are out there, the greater the chances that the 'one' will come upon a firearm.

So you are not judging the many, or even blaming them.  You are just minimizing opportunities.  Any focus on the individual (anger, mental illness, whatever), as a program, doesn't cut it.  We just need to lower the chances.

Maddog wrote:

Original Quill wrote:

I don't know if it's judgment as much as simple prudence.  Really, all it takes is one misguided soul, and you've got 17 dead, or whatever incident you wish to raise.  But the more guns that are out there, the greater the chances that the 'one' will come upon a firearm.

So you are not judging the many, or even blaming them.  You are just minimizing opportunities.  Any focus on the individual (anger, mental illness, whatever), as a program, doesn't cut it.  We just need to lower the chances.

Your treating gun owners like conservatives treat Muslims.  They figure it only takes one crazy Muslim so you may as well ban all of them  

veya_victaous wrote:

Tommy Monk wrote:Gun deaths also vary dramatically by type. The vast majority (77 percent) of white gun deaths are suicides; less than one in five (19 percent) is a homicide. These figures are nearly opposite in the black population, where only 14 percent of gun deaths are suicides but 82 percent are homicides:

The firearm homicide rate among black men aged 20-29 is about 89 per 100,000.To put that fact in some international perspective, in Honduras—the country with the highest recorded homicide rate—there were 90.4 intentional murders per 100,000 people in 2012. That includes all means, not just firearm homicides.


https://www.brookings.edu/blog/social-mobility-memos/2015/12/15/guns-and-race-the-different-worlds-of-black-and-white-americans/

yep that 19% alone is 5 times higher than in the UK, Aren't You glad you have strong gun control laws tommy

And even if you take the demographics of just white America it is still over double

Original Quill wrote:

Maddog wrote:

Your treating gun owners like conservatives treat Muslims.  They figure it only takes one crazy Muslim so you may as well ban all of them  

With  Muslims, you bring in countervailing issues of human rights.  Owning a gun is not intrinsically a human right (though it is a constitutional right), insofar as many people can and do go through their lives without one.

Guns are not related to dignity or equality or any other fundamental quality of being.  Firearms are mere chattel. Frankly, though I'm sure you didn't mean it like that, it's kind of insulting to equate an ethnicity, identity or a religion to chattel.

Tommy Monk wrote:

veya_victaous wrote:

yep that 19% alone is 5 times higher than in the UK, Aren't You glad you have strong gun control laws tommy

And even if you take the demographics of just white America it is still over double

Criminals still get guns... it is only the vast majority of people here who are responsible law abiding citizens who are unable to have/get guns...


And although gun crime/murders are low, it is knife crime/murders/stabbings that are massively high instead... even though there are laws against carrying/using knives on the streets in public and using them as weapons to attack!!!

Maddog wrote:

Original Quill wrote:

With  Muslims, you bring in countervailing issues of human rights.  Owning a gun is not intrinsically a human right (though it is a constitutional right), insofar as many people can and do go through their lives without one.

Guns are not related to dignity or equality or any other fundamental quality of being.  Firearms are mere chattel. Frankly, though I'm sure you didn't mean it like that, it's kind of insulting to equate an ethnicity, identity or a religion to chattel.

No person, from one country has a right to live in another.  

Maddog wrote:But my point is unchanged and 100 percent accurate even if it makes you uncomfortable by exposing your hipocracy. Conservatives look at Muslim immigrants the same way liberals look at gun owners. The majority are judged based on the actions of tiny minority.

Tommy Monk wrote:Americans are a nation of people with their own culture... and their right to their values, beliefs and symbols are intrinsic... including their right to bear arms as enshrined in their constitution...!


Also... it sounds very much like you are defending a Muslim as having a right to commit terrorist atrocities as being somehow part of their cultural identity...?

Original Quill wrote:

Maddog wrote:

No person, from one country has a right to live in another.  

Sure they do.  All you need to do is take it.  We did it with the Louisiana Purchase, Oregon Territory, California and New Mexico.  Y'all did it with Texas.  Israel is doing it with Palestine.

Maddog wrote:But my point is unchanged and 100 percent accurate even if it makes you uncomfortable by exposing your hipocracy. Conservatives look at Muslim immigrants the same way liberals look at gun owners. The majority are judged based on the actions of tiny minority.

Nonsense.  Guns are chattel.  Owning one is not an intrinsic right.  Muslims are a culture...their right to their values, beliefs and symbols are intrinsic.

Original Quill wrote:

Tommy Monk wrote:Americans are a nation of people with their own culture... and their right to their values, beliefs and symbols are intrinsic... including their right to bear arms as enshrined in their constitution...!


Also... it sounds very much like you are defending a Muslim as having a right to commit terrorist atrocities as being somehow part of their cultural identity...?

Being Muslim is not synonymous with terrorist atrocities.  Southerners in America are more related to terrorist atrocities through their social club, the KKK.

But one of the founding principles of America was tolerance.  So if you find tolerance for Muslims distasteful, blame the founders.

Maddog wrote:

Original Quill wrote:

Being Muslim is not synonymous with terrorist atrocities.  Southerners in America are more related to terrorist atrocities through their social club, the KKK.

But one of the founding principles of America was tolerance.  So if you find tolerance for Muslims distasteful, blame the founders.

See, you and Tommy are both statists.  

Tommy Monk wrote:

Maddog wrote:

See, you and Tommy are both statists.  

Not necessarily... and irrelevant anyway...


I was just throwing Quills logic back at him!

Tommy Monk wrote:

Maddog wrote:

See, you and Tommy are both statists.  

Not necessarily... and irrelevant anyway...

I was just throwing Quills logic back at him!

Tommy Monk wrote:I want small govt and small state control...

Tommy Monk wrote:I want small govt and small state control...

Didge wrote:

Tommy Monk wrote:

There are millions of poor white people in the US...


But it is mostly blacks who are the perpetrators of gun murders... and mostly blacks who are the victims...

So why then still do many white poor people kill each other in the US?

More blacks live within relative poverty than whites, hence my point

So why do plenty of white people kill each other?

6 million Jews murdered?

How many Poles and Russians murdered by poor German farmers armed by Nazi Germany?

How many millions of poor Russians, have been murdered by other poor white Russians?

Is this really the idiotic argument you are presenting based on poverty and black people?

Guess we better be continually concerned about white people based on stats eh and your idiotic racially dumb reasoning?

Tommy Monk wrote:Waffle...

Tommy Monk wrote:Waffle...

Tommy Monk wrote:I want small govt and small state control...

Tommy Monk wrote:Because I don't want big expensive bureaucratic inefficient govt...

Tommy Monk wrote:Because I don't want big expensive bureaucratic inefficient govt...

Tommy Monk wrote:

veya_victaous wrote:

Tommy Monk wrote:Gun deaths also vary dramatically by type. The vast majority (77 percent) of white gun deaths are suicides; less than one in five (19 percent) is a homicide. These figures are nearly opposite in the black population, where only 14 percent of gun deaths are suicides but 82 percent are homicides:

The firearm homicide rate among black men aged 20-29 is about 89 per 100,000.To put that fact in some international perspective, in Honduras—the country with the highest recorded homicide rate—there were 90.4 intentional murders per 100,000 people in 2012. That includes all means, not just firearm homicides.


https://www.brookings.edu/blog/social-mobility-memos/2015/12/15/guns-and-race-the-different-worlds-of-black-and-white-americans/

yep that 19% alone is 5 times higher than in the UK, Aren't You glad you have strong gun control laws tommy

And even if you take the demographics of just white America it is still over double

Criminals still get guns... it is only the vast majority of people here who are responsible law abiding citizens who are unable to have/get guns...


And although gun crime/murders are low, it is knife crime/murders/stabbings that are massively high instead... even though there are laws against carrying/using knives on the streets in public and using them as weapons to attack!!!

Tommy Monk wrote:I want small govt and small state control...

veya_victaous wrote:

Tommy Monk wrote:I want small govt and small state control...

no, you don't

many times you has expressed desire for the complete OPPOSITE of small government

Maddog wrote:Make no mistake—Peterson's failure to engage the shooter was a monumental error. We don't know whether the SRO would have been able to stop a psychopath armed with an AR-15, but it was his job to try; he might have at least slowed Cruz, thus saving lives. Why are we paying armed guards to keep schools safe if they flee the very danger they are supposed to prevent?

It's difficult to fathom the depths of law enforcement's collective failure—at every conceivable level—to take any action that might have averted the Parkland tragedy or mitigated the death toll. The FBI didn't follow-up on tips about Cruz's verified instability. Broward County didn't take preventative measures despite receiving more than 20 calls about Cruz over the years. And the officer whose job it was to keep kids safe stood idly by while they were murdered—even though one of the big lessons of Columbine was that lone officers should rush toward the sound of gunfire in school shooting scenarios.

At the very least, these revelations about the abysmal incompetence of law enforcement should shake our confidence that more cops, more security, and more surveillance are the solution to mass shootings—and that the corresponding civil liberties tradeoffs are remotely justified.

https://reason.com/blog/2018/02/22/parkland-stoneman-school-resource-office

Maddog wrote:Make no mistake—Peterson's failure to engage the shooter was a monumental error. We don't know whether the SRO would have been able to stop a psychopath armed with an AR-15, but it was his job to try; he might have at least slowed Cruz, thus saving lives. Why are we paying armed guards to keep schools safe if they flee the very danger they are supposed to prevent?

It's difficult to fathom the depths of law enforcement's collective failure—at every conceivable level—to take any action that might have averted the Parkland tragedy or mitigated the death toll. The FBI didn't follow-up on tips about Cruz's verified instability. Broward County didn't take preventative measures despite receiving more than 20 calls about Cruz over the years. And the officer whose job it was to keep kids safe stood idly by while they were murdered—even though one of the big lessons of Columbine was that lone officers should rush toward the sound of gunfire in school shooting scenarios.

At the very least, these revelations about the abysmal incompetence of law enforcement should shake our confidence that more cops, more security, and more surveillance are the solution to mass shootings—and that the corresponding civil liberties tradeoffs are remotely justified.

https://reason.com/blog/2018/02/22/parkland-stoneman-school-resource-office

WhoseYourWolfie wrote:

Maddog wrote:Make no mistake—Peterson's failure to engage the shooter was a monumental error. We don't know whether the SRO would have been able to stop a psychopath armed with an AR-15, but it was his job to try; he might have at least slowed Cruz, thus saving lives. Why are we paying armed guards to keep schools safe if they flee the very danger they are supposed to prevent?

It's difficult to fathom the depths of law enforcement's collective failure—at every conceivable level—to take any action that might have averted the Parkland tragedy or mitigated the death toll. The FBI didn't follow-up on tips about Cruz's verified instability. Broward County didn't take preventative measures despite receiving more than 20 calls about Cruz over the years. And the officer whose job it was to keep kids safe stood idly by while they were murdered—even though one of the big lessons of Columbine was that lone officers should rush toward the sound of gunfire in school shooting scenarios.

At the very least, these revelations about the abysmal incompetence of law enforcement should shake our confidence that more cops, more security, and more surveillance are the solution to mass shootings—and that the corresponding civil liberties tradeoffs are remotely justified.

https://reason.com/blog/2018/02/22/parkland-stoneman-school-resource-office

The sad fact is that many of those security guards in the USA are only on minimum award wages for their job and state..         *  Security guards are not police officers  !  *

Most are not paid, nor trained and qualified, to sacrifice their own lives, but are only required to stop an assailant if possible, to alert staff and authorities, and try to stop trouble if possible..

If you want a well trained, qualified and armoured guard with a .40 cal. Glock to go in and blow away these shooters,  you will fucking well be prepared to pay for it !

Maddog wrote:

WhoseYourWolfie wrote:


The sad fact is that many of those security guards in the USA are only on minimum award wages for their job and state..         *  Security guards are not police officers  !  *

Most are not paid, nor trained and qualified, to sacrifice their own lives, but are only required to stop an assailant if possible, to alert staff and authorities, and try to stop trouble if possible..

If you want a well trained, qualified and armoured guard with a .40 cal. Glock to go in and blow away these shooters,  you will fucking well be prepared to pay for it !

Hes a cop. And he was making over 75 grand a year.  

This is one of those times you could learn something by asking questions.  

Original Quill wrote:

Maddog wrote:

Hes a cop. And he was making over 75 grand a year.  

This is one of those times you could learn something by asking questions.  

You get what you pay for.  As I've said, I would take no less than $1-million/year to be an armed teacher.  I think that's reasonable.

Maddog wrote:

Original Quill wrote:

You get what you pay for.  As I've said, I would take no less than $1-million/year to be an armed teacher.  I think that's reasonable.

You're not worth a 10 bucks. But most police officers can at least attempt their job.  

veya_victaous wrote:

Tommy Monk wrote:


Criminals still get guns... it is only the vast majority of people here who are responsible law abiding citizens who are unable to have/get guns...


And although gun crime/murders are low, it is knife crime/murders/stabbings that are massively high instead... even though there are laws against carrying/using knives on the streets in public and using them as weapons to attack!!!

there is far less homicides total Gun and knife combined and the USA is Still quite a bit higher than the UK's "massively high" crime

Ranking for Violent Crime TOTAL all crimes all weapons
35th United States 49.58
59th Australia 42.55  
62nd United Kingdom 41.20  
https://www.numbeo.com/crime/rankings_by_country.jsp

veya_victaous wrote:

Tommy Monk wrote:I want small govt and small state control...

no, you don't

many times you has expressed desire for the complete OPPOSITE of small government

Tommy Monk wrote:

veya_victaous wrote:

no, you don't

many times you has expressed desire for the complete OPPOSITE of small government

Have I...?


When and how have I ever done that...?

Didge wrote:Is the uk rate much higher Tommy?

Lets fuck up an idiot that does not know the answers.

As what offcial evidence does Tommy have?

Tommy Monk wrote:

Didge wrote:Is the uk rate much higher Tommy?

Lets fuck up an idiot that does not know the answers.

As what offcial evidence does Tommy have?

UK rate would be much higher if using same method of collating as is used in US... and likewise, the US rate would be much lower if they used the UK method of collating figures...
Read the link...
And I have no idea what you are babbling about in your other post...

Lurker wrote:
Damn republican gun worshipers have shown zero sympathy for the murdered kids.

Didge wrote:

Tommy Monk wrote:



UK rate would be much higher if using same method of collating as is used in US... and likewise, the US rate would be much lower if they used the UK method of collating figures...
Read the link...
And I have no idea what you are babbling about in your other post...

I have no idea?

Really?

The UK would have higher based on strict gunlaws?

Where is this evidence you have invented on gun deaths?

Tommy Monk wrote:
I take it you didn't read this earlier post of mine...



...this is a very interesting read for those who are trying to compare murder rates of the US to UK... as it explains very well that the official figures are collected in different ways in both countries... and therefore incomparable like for like...


Bottom line is that UK rate is much higher than official figures claim... possibly higher than the US is argued here...



http://rboatright.blogspot.co.uk/2013/03/comparing-england-or-uk-murder-rates.html