Christian parents take their son, six, out of Church of England primary school and plan to sue because a male classmate is allowed to wear a dress

by Guest Sun Sep 10, 2017 4:00 pm

First topic message reminder :

A Christian couple who took their son out of a Church of England primary because a boy in his class was allowed to wear a dress are planning to sue the school. Nigel Rowe, 44, and his wife Sally, 42, said their child had come home 'confused as to why and how a boy was now a girl' after his classmate wore female uniform. The boy also turned up to their son's royal-themed birthday party in April wearing a blue velvet dress - rather than coming dressed as a knight like other children. The couple - who play an active part in school life - say they have a good relationship with the six-year-old's parents.

But they are now set to take the Diocese of Portsmouth to court arguing that it has not respected their rights to raise their children with biblical values. Mr Rowe, who lives on the Isle of Wight, told The Sunday Times: 'We believe it is wrong to encourage very young children to embrace transgenderism. Boys are boys and girls are girls.

'Gender dysphoria is something we as Christians need to address with love and compassion, but not in the sphere of a primary school environment.'

The Rowes' son will now be schooled at home along with his older brother who they took out of the same school last year after a boy in his class started wearing female clothing.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4869682/Christian-parents-sue-school-boy-wearing-dress.html#ixzz4sHwMrsa6
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by Victorismyhero Mon Sep 11, 2017 2:05 pm

Thorin wrote:
Lord Foul wrote:personally I think its time "people" (and especially those people who think they have some sort of moral high ground and can demand how others parent, you know the ones ...the mouthy "super mums") learned

a) you dont actually know f**k all
b) to mind their OWN business
c) learn to bring their OWN kids up "minding their own business"

raising children ISNT a "pack occupation" and how mrs "A" does it is bugger all to do with Mrs "B"

So you would have no objection to a parent bring their child to school in a Nazi T-shirt?

straw man alert

Again this is about the confusion of the other child, which people seem to be struggling to understand here.

Its not...its a load of religiously driven bigotry dressed up as some sort of psychobabble

whats wrong with the parents of the "confused" child...the one now withdrawn from scholl simply telling THEIR kid...why not...it happens ...live with it its not hurting YOU. or even more simply so what...its got nothing to do with you how that other kid dresses.

As to the other kid...let him experiment...he'll sort it out sooner or later, and will be the better for it ...IF FOLKS WOULD JUST MIND THEIR OWN and stop telling him and his parents how THEY think it should be done......

by Guest Mon Sep 11, 2017 2:11 pm

Lord Foul wrote:
Thorin wrote:

So you would have no objection to a parent bring their child to school in a Nazi T-shirt?

straw man alert

Again this is about the confusion of the other child, which people seem to be struggling to understand here.

Its not...its a load of religiously driven bigotry dressed up as some sort of psychobabble

whats wrong with the parents of the "confused" child...the one now withdrawn from scholl simply telling THEIR kid...why not...it happens ...live with it its not hurting YOU. or even more simply so what...its got nothing to do with you how that other kid dresses.

As to the other kid...let him experiment...he'll sort it out sooner or later, and will be the better for it ...IF FOLKS WOULD JUST MIND THEIR OWN and stop telling him and his parents how THEY think it should be done......

1) Really, so now I am a religious bigot, as an atheist?
How does that work?

2) Okay, lets go with that view, no child of that age is transgender, so effectively you are teaching your children a lie. So if those parents are encouraging something that is not at that age medically defined, it coulc also create problems for that child also growing up. I already gave a far better way to explain this to gelico, maybe you should read my other replies

3) Its still confusing to the other child who at 6 simple does not understand

4) Its not strawman, because at the end of the day there is many things you would object to, making you an utter hypocrite.

5) Yeah, lets take the Victor dumfuckwittery view, lets encourage children to be confused over gender. That works, being more and more are being refereed because they are confused, showing you have not got a clue or how parents have a responsibility

by Guest Mon Sep 11, 2017 2:18 pm

Thorin wrote:
gelico wrote:

i agree with you but isn't it easily remedied? so a kid comes home from school 'confused' and says ''hey, there's this boy in my class called Josh but he came in wearing a dress, I don't understand,,,why would he do that? why is josh dressing like a girl?'' so i would say to child ''ok, well it sounds like Josh is a little confused as to whether he's actually happy being a boy or not,,,,,,some people are like that,,,,,it may sound a bit strange and funny but please try to understand and dont pick on Josh for it ok?''.

Hopefully that would be enough and this christian couple could have said that couldn't they? their kid being confused about another kid wearing a dress is hardly the worst thing that can happen to them. There was no mention of them being upset or traumatised over it. It doesn't affect their own ability to learn so what's the problem?

no idea what that last sentence is meant to mean

The couple already know the other parents as well. Which the story does not give the other parents view on this, which is a shame, as we only have one side.

I have just been reading from actually Pink news and the boy was saying he is a now a girl, hence the confusion. Now again I do not agree with the parents religious aspect, but the parents of the other child seem to be encouraging transgender at too young an age. Where this may well be a fad of which he/she could grow out of. Again this is only going by the views of said Christian parents.

In the video, Nigel Rowe claimed that a six-year-old child who was in the same class as his son often came to school presenting as both female and male.
“A child aged six would sometimes come to school as a girl or sometimes come to school as a boy.
“Our concerns were raised when our son came back home from school saying he was confused as to why and how a boy was now a girl.”
He added that they felt it was “wrong” to promote trans identities.
“We believe it is wrong to encourage very young children to embrace transgenderism.
“Boys are boys and girls are girls. Gender dysphoria is something we as Christians need to address with love and compassion, but not in the sphere of a primary school environment.”
Sally Rowe claimed to have a good relationship with the parents of the trans child but said that she became increasingly confused about the child after they turned up to a “royal” fancy dress party in a blue velvet dress.

http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2017/09/10/parents-threaten-lawsuit-against-church-of-england-school-over-trans-student/

Hang on you just before said kids don't think about gender. To now in your explanation, say that Josh is a little confused over his gender.

you said yourself that some do so i was merely saying that if that were the case then a simple explanation would put that right. I agree that there is only one side of the story on this one

it would be equally effective though to just say to the confused kid ''so what, david beckham enjoyed wearing a skirt and there's no confusion over it. it may be that josh isn't comfortable being a boy and would rather be a girl or it may be that josh is fully comfortable being a boy and just likes to wear skirts. i covered this in my first post to les but lost the whole thing so just agreed with him.

my point is that by taking their kid out of school due to the kid being ''confused'' is ridiculous and a complete drama

how people prefer to dress should't really be an issue for anyone should it?

by Guest Mon Sep 11, 2017 2:23 pm

gelico wrote:
Thorin wrote:

The couple already know the other parents as well. Which the story does not give the other parents view on this, which is a shame, as we only have one side.

I have just been reading from actually Pink news and the boy was saying he is a now a girl, hence the confusion. Now again I do not agree with the parents religious aspect, but the parents of the other child seem to be encouraging transgender at too young an age. Where this may well be a fad of which he/she could grow out of. Again this is only going by the views of said Christian parents.

you said yourself that some do so i was merely saying that if that were the case then a simple explanation would put that right. I agree that there is only one side of the story on this one

it would be equally effective though to just say to the confused kid ''so what, david beckham enjoyed wearing a skirt and there's no confusion over it. it may be that josh isn't comfortable being a boy and would rather be a girl or it may be that josh is fully comfortable being a boy and just likes to wear skirts. i covered this in my first post to les but lost the whole thing so just agreed with him.

my point is that by taking their kid out of school due to the kid being ''confused'' is ridiculous and a complete drama

how people prefer to dress should't really be an issue for anyone should it?

Again Gelico, you are assuming that said methods will defuse a confused child. Its possible it will work or it will not and that child is confused. I think the problem more so here is because the child has been brought up on a ethos of Christianity. Something I think is also wrong to do, until a child is of sound age to decide for themselves. I think that this has also led to the confusion. People though have a right to sadly brainwash their children with religious drivel. Which could be the primary cause of the confusion. So for Christian parents it could be more difficult to unravel the confusion.

There is not much of a difference between skirts and Kilts, of which men do wear. Dresses though is not something men really wear and if some at least did, this would defuse any confusion.

I think if the claim is true that the parents are encouraging transgender at such a young age, then it is wrong. They should be neutral about this, incase it is just a phase.

by Guest Mon Sep 11, 2017 2:43 pm

Thorin wrote:

I think the problem more so here is because the child has been brought up on a ethos of Christianity.

Irony Alert!!!! Maybe someone ought to point out to these good Christian people that Jesus and his followers wore ''dresses'' and even if they didn't, Jesus himself taught not to discriminate against others

I think if the claim is true that the parents are encouraging transgender at such a young age, then it is wrong. They should be neutral about this, incase it is just a phase.

agree with your last comment also

by Guest Mon Sep 11, 2017 2:47 pm

gelico wrote:
Thorin wrote:

I think the problem more so here is because the child has been brought up on a ethos of Christianity.

Irony Alert!!!! Maybe someone ought to point out to these good Christian people that Jesus and his followers wore ''dresses''

I think if the claim is true that the parents are encouraging transgender at such a young age, then it is wrong. They should be neutral about this, incase it is just a phase.

agree with your last comment also

Sorry gelico, they wore robes, not dresses.

But granted the clothes was certainly more gender neutral then.

by Victorismyhero Mon Sep 11, 2017 3:52 pm

Thorin wrote:
Lord Foul wrote:
Thorin wrote:

So you would have no objection to a parent bring their child to school in a Nazi T-shirt?

straw man alert

Again this is about the confusion of the other child, which people seem to be struggling to understand here.

Its not...its a load of religiously driven bigotry dressed up as some sort of psychobabble

whats wrong with the parents of the "confused" child...the one now withdrawn from scholl simply telling THEIR kid...why not...it happens ...live with it its not hurting YOU. or even more simply so what...its got nothing to do with you how that other kid dresses.

As to the other kid...let him experiment...he'll sort it out sooner or later, and will be the better for it ...IF FOLKS WOULD JUST MIND THEIR OWN and stop telling him and his parents how THEY think it should be done......

1) Really, so now I am a religious bigot, as an atheist?
How does that work?

did I say that ??? nope....strawman alert No2

2) Okay, lets go with that view, no child of that age is transgender,

Irrelevant actually...but if a dress is what the kid feels happy wearing so what??
so effectively you are teaching your children a lie. So if those parents are encouraging something that is not at that age medically defined, it coulc also create problems for that child also growing up. I already gave a far better way to explain this to gelico, maybe you should read my other replies

3) Its still confusing to the other child who at 6 simple does not understand
tough, the problem lies within society which shoehorns folks into idealised and imaginary roles, the other kid needs to learn to live and let live...a far more important concept

4) Its not strawman, because at the end of the day there is many things you would object to, making you an utter hypocrite.

bollocks...nazism is anti social, counter productive, anti feedom and destructive this is not the case with the point in question
hence your point on this is a "straw man"

5) Yeah, lets take the Victor dumfuckwittery view, lets encourage children to be confused over gender. That works, being more and more are being refereed because they are confused, showing you have not got a clue or how parents have a responsibility
now so far I have been polite to you but...since you wish to "start"....lets see who the dumbfuckwit really is

a) the point was made above that some other cultures consider what is effectively a dress as perfectly ok male attire
b) why the hang up about the dress defining the gender
c)why does it matter
d)as I said above let the kid experiment
e) anyone objecting and having the "thats wrong " view should keep their gob shut since THEIR views are the problem....not the kid wearing a dress...
f) as a corollary to that...society's views on something like this ARE the problem. what society is saying is that there is something wrong about a boy wearing a dress when in fact society is wrong to be offended by that.
g) since the wearing of a dress by a boy ISNT going to cause the collapse of society, indeed its not going to have any impact on society PROVIDED society stops being so prissy, then society should mind its own.
h) and given the above, in any matter which is essentially of no impact on society, society should not have a say in the matter, folks should be allowed to do as they please.

by Victorismyhero Mon Sep 11, 2017 3:57 pm

for far too long people have suffered under the censorious glare and dissaproval of the "holier than thou" curtain twitching inanity of those who set themselves up as some sort of moral guardian, beyond that which is required for a well conditioned and open, inclusive society.

by Guest Mon Sep 11, 2017 4:08 pm

Lord Foul wrote:

did I say that ??? nope....strawman alert No2
Thorin wrote:No strawman at all, and beginning to think you have no grasp on what it actually means,
when posed with a question

Irrelevant actually...but if a dress is what the kid feels happy wearing so what??
Thorin wrote:Its very relevant if the parents are actively encouraging such a view within their child

tough, the problem lies within society which shoehorns folks into idealised and imaginary roles, the other kid needs to learn to live and let live...a far more important concept
Thorin wrote:So the heartless Victor says its tough and fails to grasp this child could become confused about his gender identity, becomes shunned by his own parents and ends up committing suicide

Bravo on that load of heartless crap

bollocks...nazism is anti social, counter productive, anti feedom and destructive this is not the case with the point in question
hence your point on this is a "straw man"
Thorin wrote:Which means you would object to how a parent would dress their child

Case closed

now so far I have been polite to you but...since you wish to "start"....lets see who the dumbfuckwit really is
Thorin wrote:Polite?

Lol, you have some warped view on what is polite by saying tough to a confused child

Hypocrisy at best

a) the point was made above that some other cultures consider what is effectively a dress as perfectly ok male attire
Thorin wrote:.That was not the hang up, what was, if the school and parents were effectively encouraging Transgender in a 6 year old child
b) why the hang up about the dress defining the gender
Thorin wrote:.Because its not a hang up, but as seen can be very confusing for a 6 year old child, being the fact he will not see men and boys walking around in dresses
c)why does it matter
Thorin wrote:To me and you, it does not matter, but it can be confusing to young children
d)as I said above let the kid experiment
Thorin wrote:I have no problem with a kid experimenting, but the view to actually encourage Transgender in a child is wrong at such a young age, when the School and parents should be neutral on this.
e) anyone objecting and having the "thats wrong " view should keep their gob shut since THEIR views are the problem....not the kid wearing a dress...
Thorin wrote:.So if the confused child is then forced to refer to the other child now as a girl, you would have no objection to that then? To then a week later the child wanting to be refereed to as a boy again?
f) as a corollary to that...society's views on something like this ARE the problem. what society is saying is that there is something wrong about a boy wearing a dress when in fact society is wrong to be offended by that.
Thorin wrote:.There is nothing wrong with a boy wearing a dress
g) since the wearing of a dress by a boy ISNT going to cause the collapse of society, indeed its not going to have any impact on society PROVIDED society stops being so prissy, then society should mind its own.
Thorin wrote:.Its not going to cause the collapse of society, but it could very well psychologically effect both boys involved.
h) and given the above, in any matter which is essentially of no impact on society, society should not have a say in the matter, folks should be allowed to do as they please.[/color]

Which as seen it does cause an impact on some children, being the fact if you have bothered to see an earlier link more and more children are being refereed or gender dysphoria. So discount the fact this maybe caused by the encouraged view of wearing dresses or encouraging Transgender at such an earlier age, is clearly being very ignorant to possible complications

by eddie Mon Sep 11, 2017 4:20 pm

nicko wrote:No Veya, the other kids will bully him and "take the piss" !

I have said this so many times: some children will get the piss taken out of them no matter what, for wearing glasses, being a bit overweight, underweight, being ginger.

What do you suggest? Culling all ginger babies so that they won't cry at school? Dying their hair so that they "fit in" and won't get called names??

The parents in the OP are arseholes. Total and utter arseholes. Children of six don't care what other kids are doing particularly - being the entirely selfish and self-absorbed little creatures they are - and I bet that boy innocently asked why "a boy was wearing a dress" and the parents overreacted.
They are just the sort of people I would actively avoid. Can't stand ignorant wankers.

by Guest Mon Sep 11, 2017 4:24 pm

eddie wrote:
nicko wrote:No Veya, the other kids will bully him and "take the piss" !

I have said this so many times: some children will get the piss taken out of them no matter what, for wearing glasses, being a bit overweight, underweight, being ginger.

What do you suggest? Culling all ginger babies so that they won't cry at school? Dying their hair so that they "fit in" and won't get called names??

The parents in the OP are arseholes. Total and utter arseholes. Children of six don't care what other kids are doing particularly - being the entirely selfish and self-absorbed little creatures they are - and I bet that boy innocently asked why "a boy was wearing a dress" and the parents overreacted.
They are just the sort of people I would actively avoid. Can't stand ignorant wankers.

So do you think its acceptable, if true, that the parents and school are encouraging Transgender in a 6 year old child?

Would you not think the parents doing this are ignorant wankers also Eddie.

I mean what happens when the 6 year old says one week he is mae, then the next week female, then the next male? Do you think that is going to lead to confusion with others?

A school and parents should never encourage Transgender, but be neutral on the matter, until that child is of an age, around puberty to decide. To have all the help they need.

As seen some other kids are effected and more and more kids are being refereed for gender dysphoria.

Why are such referrals rising each year in such young children?

Are some parents creating a problem here with this?

by Guest Mon Sep 11, 2017 4:30 pm

Thorin wrote:
gelico wrote:

agree with your last comment also

Sorry gelico, they wore robes, not dresses.

But granted the clothes was certainly more gender neutral then.

oh lighten up didge FFS i was taking the piss

i think these parents are bigoted idiots. they have made this into a massive issue where in reality there is none. they have probably confused their kid even more by doing so. the fact that it's in the papers says a lot too. what kind of message does that send to the poor kid who simply chose to wear a dress that day? that he's some kind of abnormal freak? the cause of someone else leaving the school? someone to be avoided? nice!

by Guest Mon Sep 11, 2017 4:38 pm

gelico wrote:
Thorin wrote:

Sorry gelico, they wore robes, not dresses.

But granted the clothes was certainly more gender neutral then.

oh lighten up didge FFS i was taking the piss

i think these parents are bigoted idiots. they have made this into a massive issue where in reality there is none. they have probably confused their kid even more by doing so. the fact that it's in the papers says a lot too. what kind of message does that send to the poor kid who simply chose to wear a dress that day? that he's some kind of abnormal freak? the cause of someone else leaving the school? someone to be avoided? nice!

That is fine you think they are bigoted, which is not even my point is it?

My point is a very simple point, that a child of that age is very unlikely to know or understand their gender identity. I think I have made this very clear. The parents should support their child, as should the school in these changes that the child is going through. Where it is very likely (about 80%) grow out of by the time they are in their adolescence. My view has been about how this will certainly psychologically effect some children. You can make it as accepting as you like, by encouraging the child to see, its just a boy or maybe later a girl going through changes. This is still going to confuse other children. Especially if that child changes their gender from week to week.

The most important Characteristic we should protect for children, is childhood.

So to me, I am concerned with the huger rise there has been in the last 5 years, if in fact parents are unconsciously playing an active part that helps create gender dysphoria. I do not think we should simple dismiss this.

by Victorismyhero Mon Sep 11, 2017 4:46 pm

Thorin wrote:
Lord Foul wrote:

did I say that ??? nope....strawman alert No2
Thorin wrote:No strawman at all, and beginning to think you have no grasp on what it actually means,
when posed with a question

Irrelevant actually...but if a dress is what the kid feels happy wearing so what??
Thorin wrote:Its very relevant if the parents are actively encouraging such a view within their child

tough, the problem lies within society which shoehorns folks into idealised and imaginary roles, the other kid needs to learn to live and let live...a far more important concept
Thorin wrote:So the heartless Victor says its tough and fails to grasp this child could become confused about his gender identity, becomes shunned by his own parents and ends up committing suicide

Bravo on that load of heartless crap

bollocks...nazism is anti social, counter productive, anti feedom and destructive this is not the case with the point in question
hence your point on this is a "straw man"
Thorin wrote:Which means you would object to how a parent would dress their child

Case closed

load of cobblers you clearly lack the understanding to answer....the point is that the issue (boy wearing a dress) is NOT the same as encouraging/permitting the advertising of/glorifying nazism...and if you cant see that you ARE a dumbfuckwit

now so far I have been polite to you but...since you wish to "start"....lets see who the dumbfuckwit really is
Thorin wrote:Polite?

Lol, you have some warped view on what is polite by saying tough to a confused child

Hypocrisy at best

loser....I was talking about YOUR reply to me. My OPINION on the matter in hand has nothing to do with politeness...it simply exists, with no implication of polity involved

a) the point was made above that some other cultures consider what is effectively a dress as perfectly ok male attire
Thorin wrote:.That was not the hang up, what was, if the school and parents were effectively encouraging Transgender in a 6 year old child

I would say permitting as opposed to encouraging, since by the use of the term encouraging you are making the exact point I am...you are saying that they are "encouraging against societies wishes" rather than merely permitting as a right his intent to do so

b) why the hang up about the dress defining the gender
Thorin wrote:.Because its not a hang up, but as seen can be very confusing for a 6 year old child, being the fact he will not see men and boys walking around in dresses

depends where he lives........

c)why does it matter
Thorin wrote:To me and you, it does not matter, but it can be confusing to young children

only if society allows it to be....

d)as I said above let the kid experiment
Thorin wrote:I have no problem with a kid experimenting, but the view to actually encourage Transgender in a child is wrong at such a young age, when the School and parents should be neutral on this.

Since it appears that he dresses sometimes "boy" sometimes "girl" clearly he is free to choose and experiment

e) anyone objecting and having the "thats wrong " view should keep their gob shut since THEIR views are the problem....not the kid wearing a dress...
Thorin wrote:.So if the confused child is then forced to refer to the other child now as a girl, you would have no objection to that then? To then a week later the child wanting to be refereed to as a boy again?

who is "forcing" him to refer to the other child as boy or girl...what wrong with the kids name??..Or thinking of him as a person rather than a strict gender role.... Again this is a problem with society...not the individual

f) as a corollary to that...society's views on something like this ARE the problem. what society is saying is that there is something wrong about a boy wearing a dress when in fact society is wrong to be offended by that.

Thorin wrote:.There is nothing wrong with a boy wearing a dress

well there you go then...

g) since the wearing of a dress by a boy ISNT going to cause the collapse of society, indeed its not going to have any impact on society PROVIDED society stops being so prissy, then society should mind its own.
Thorin wrote:.Its not going to cause the collapse of society, but it could very well psychologically effect both boys involved.
again only becasue "some" people are ignorant tits and these have an excessive voice in society

h) and given the above, in any matter which is essentially of no impact on society, society should not have a say in the matter, folks should be allowed to do as they please.[/color]

Which as seen it does cause an impact on some children, being the fact if you have bothered to see an earlier link more and more children are being refereed or gender dysphoria. So discount the fact this maybe caused by the encouraged view of wearing dresses or encouraging Transgender at such an earlier age, is clearly being very ignorant to possible complications

I dont like "maybe" or "possible" ...YOU may drive at 4mph becasue it maybe that going faster will disrupt the human frame or or drive a car with square wheels becasue maybe....personally I'd like some cause and effect to be shown...

MOREOVER.....and more importantly, the negative consequences that "maybe" "possibly" happening are more likely due to the negative reaction of old, outdated and fossilised mores and so called morals of a sick.deranged and excessivly intrusive society

by Victorismyhero Mon Sep 11, 2017 4:49 pm

you know what you are doing dont you didge?

you are resurecting the old, tired, proven to be pointless

nature v's nurture argument that was used to delegitimise gays in the past

by eddie Mon Sep 11, 2017 5:00 pm

No didge you are wrong. Why the hell shouldn't a child choose how to dress? My daughter went to a princess party as Spider-Man once and to a "Frozen" party as Olaf the snowman!
I simply don't get it. So what if he wants to wear a dress? Why make an issue of it?
Making an issue causes an issue, often where one doesn't exist.

by Guest Mon Sep 11, 2017 5:02 pm

Lord Foul wrote:

load of cobblers you clearly lack the understanding to answer....the point is that the issue (boy wearing a dress) is NOT the same as encouraging/permitting the advertising of/glorifying nazism...and if you cant see that you ARE a dumbfuckwit
Thorin wrote: lol someone is very wound up
Read what you previously said about parents interferring with how children are dressed.
So would you stand for a child in a homophobic T-shirt?
No and neither would the school and rightfully so

loser....I was talking about YOUR reply to me. My OPINION on the matter in hand has nothing to do with politeness...it simply exists, with no implication of polity involved
Thorin wrote: So you admit to contradicting yourself

we all knew that.

I would say permitting as opposed to encouraging, since by the use of the term encouraging you are making the exact point I am...you are saying that they are "encouraging against societies wishes" rather than merely permitting as a right his intent to do so
Thorin wrote: But my point is on encouragement on Transgender at such an early age. When at that age there is no way to tell whether that child will assign their gender identity as a boy or a girl. I have said we should support all children going through such changes, but parents and the school should remain neutral. I have nothing against the school permitting children to wear what they like. I have made this view clear on my view against school uniforms being mandatory

depends where he lives........
Thorin wrote: The Isle of man

only if society allows it to be....
Thorin wrote: Who said anything about allowing? I have no problem that a school allows a boy to dress in a dress. This is and has always been about promoting and encouraging Transgender in a child so young. To me he/she is a still a child, until he has assigned his gender indenty

Since it appears that he dresses sometimes "boy" sometimes "girl" clearly he is free to choose and experiment
Thorin wrote:Which would show confusion would it not?

who is "forcing" him to refer to the other child as boy or girl...what wrong with the kids name??..Or thinking of him as a person rather than a strict gender role.... Again this is a problem with society...not the individual
Thorin wrote: Well you really are not up to speed on that, its been practically made into law in Canada, how long will it be the case here?

again only becasue "some" people are ignorant tits and these have an excessive voice in society
Thorin wrote: So a 6 year old child is ignorant? Are you claiming kids do not have problems psychological? I mean take what happens to wear a boy previously assigned himself as a girl to revert back to assigning himself as a boy. Can you not see psychological possible problems with detransition. I mean your view is no child should sufer from being confused here and your answer is they are ignorant. Thus creating further problems where they have religious families.

I dont like "maybe" or "possible" ...YOU may drive at 4mph becasue it maybe that going faster will disrupt the human frame or or drive a car with square wheels becasue maybe....personally I'd like some cause and effect to be shown...

MOREOVER.....and more importantly, the negative consequences that "maybe" "possibly" happening are more likely due to the negative reaction of old, outdated and fossilised mores and so called morals of a sick.deranged and excessivly intrusive society

But that is absolutely a load of crap, because society is very accepting of Transgender in the UK. Granted not all, as some are very hateful. So again how would that explain more young kids being refereed?

by Guest Mon Sep 11, 2017 5:03 pm

Lord Foul wrote:you know what you are doing dont you didge?

you are resurecting the old, tired, proven to be pointless

nature v's nurture argument that was used to delegitimise gays in the past

Wrong on every single level

And its an insult that you think I am and anyone that gave you a green or that is an idiot to believe I am.

by Guest Mon Sep 11, 2017 5:04 pm

eddie wrote:No didge you are wrong. Why the hell shouldn't a child choose how to dress? My daughter went to a princess party as Spider-Man once and to a "Frozen" party as Olaf the snowman!
I simply don't get it. So what if he wants to wear a dress? Why make an issue of it?
Making an issue causes an issue, often where one doesn't exist.

Have you actually read and taken on a single point I have said?

Seriously Eddie?

by Syl Mon Sep 11, 2017 5:18 pm

The parents who have created the fuss were on the earlier news. This is the second child they have taken out of school because of the dress worn by other pupils in class.

I really don't see why they have created problems for their two sons, because it's they who have created the problems here....no one else.

by Guest Mon Sep 11, 2017 5:21 pm

there was a story on twitter today about some boy in australia who decided he wanted to be a girl. his parents gave him hormone replacement tablets and he grew tits then aged 14 he decided no he wanted to be a boy again

i get what didge is saying about focussing on gender is wrong at such an age. they are mostly not even aware of gender anyway and should not be encouraged one way or another but we dont really know if that's the case or not

by Syl Mon Sep 11, 2017 5:30 pm

gelico wrote:
there was a story on twitter today about some boy in australia who decided he wanted to be a girl. his parents gave him hormone replacement tablets and he grew tits then aged 14 he decided no he wanted to be a boy again

i get what didge is saying about focussing on gender is wrong at such an age. they are mostly not even aware of gender anyway and should not be encouraged one way or another but we dont really know if that's the case or not

I am convinced that the VAST majority of kids who are feeling confused about gender are getting this off their parents in some way.

by Guest Mon Sep 11, 2017 5:33 pm

gelico wrote:
there was a story on twitter today about some boy in australia who decided he wanted to be a girl. his parents gave him hormone replacement tablets and he grew tits then aged 14 he decided no he wanted to be a boy again

i get what didge is saying about focussing on gender is wrong at such an age. they are mostly not even aware of gender anyway and should not be encouraged one way or another but we dont really know if that's the case or not

Have sent you a PM Gelico

by Victorismyhero Mon Sep 11, 2017 5:35 pm

Thorin wrote:
Lord Foul wrote:

load of cobblers you clearly lack the understanding to answer....the point is that the issue (boy wearing a dress) is NOT the same as encouraging/permitting the advertising of/glorifying nazism...and if you cant see that you ARE a dumbfuckwit
Thorin wrote: lol someone is very wound up
Read what you previously said about parents interferring with how children are dressed.
So would you stand for a child in a homophobic T-shirt?
No and neither would the school and rightfully so

are you being deliberately dense??? homophobia, like nazism is disruptive of society, and has negative consequences beyond its mere existance....hence it is not permissible...the wearing of a dress by a boy is NOT and does not have the same (or indeed any negative) impact on society...beyond what society invents by not minding its own business.

loser....I was talking about YOUR reply to me. My OPINION on the matter in hand has nothing to do with politeness...it simply exists, with no implication of polity involved
Thorin wrote: So you admit to contradicting yourself

we all knew that.

dumbfuckwit...you know exactly what I meant....

I would say permitting as opposed to encouraging, since by the use of the term encouraging you are making the exact point I am...you are saying that they are "encouraging against societies wishes" rather than merely permitting as a right his intent to do so

Thorin wrote: But my point is on encouragement on Transgender at such an early age. When at that age there is no way to tell whether that child will assign their gender identity as a boy or a girl. I have said we should support all children going through such changes, but parents and the school should remain neutral. I have nothing against the school permitting children to wear what they like. I have made this view clear on my view against school uniforms being mandatory

who says they are in fact encouraging as opposed to merely giving the freedom to experiment

depends where he lives........
Thorin wrote: The Isle of man

Well he want to move to manchester them.....he will see plenty there

only if society allows it to be....
Thorin wrote: Who said anything about allowing? I have no problem that a school allows a boy to dress in a dress. This is and has always been about promoting and encouraging Transgender in a child so young. To me he/she is a still a child, until he has assigned his gender indenty

Since it appears that he dresses sometimes "boy" sometimes "girl" clearly he is free to choose and experiment
Thorin wrote:Which would show confusion would it not?

Not necessarily.....and in fact it may be a good thing, he is perhaps addressing indecision, rather than confusion, this way he can take his time to make his decision finally ....

who is "forcing" him to refer to the other child as boy or girl...what wrong with the kids name??..Or thinking of him as a person rather than a strict gender role.... Again this is a problem with society...not the individual
Thorin wrote: Well you really are not up to speed on that, its been practically made into law in Canada, how long will it be the case here?

I dont know ...and I dont give a toss about whats happened in some other country...its irrelevant

again only becasue "some" people are ignorant tits and these have an excessive voice in society
Thorin wrote: So a 6 year old child is ignorant? Are you claiming kids do not have problems psychological? I mean take what happens to wear a boy previously assigned himself as a girl to revert back to assigning himself as a boy. Can you not see psychological possible problems with detransition. I mean your view is no child should sufer from being confused here and your answer is they are ignorant. Thus creating further problems where they have religious families.

I dont like "maybe" or "possible" ...YOU may drive at 4mph becasue it maybe that going faster will disrupt the human frame or or drive a car with square wheels becasue maybe....personally I'd like some cause and effect to be shown...

MOREOVER.....and more importantly, the negative consequences that "maybe" "possibly" happening are more likely due to the negative reaction of old, outdated and fossilised mores and so called morals of a sick.deranged and excessivly intrusive society

But that is absolutely a load of crap, because society is very accepting of Transgender in the UK. Granted not all, as some are very hateful. So again how would that explain more young kids being refereed?

now ...so much for your psychobabble

consider this

gender dysphoria is caused or perhaps I should say is a symptom of the confusion that reigns when one part of the mind is programmed to one gender by parental/societal pressure and another is programmed by its "wireing"/whatever to another gender. yes?

so the sufferer is exposed to a kind of internal cognitive dissonance between two parts if his/her own mind

Now isnt the problem therfore one of NOT allowing them to experiment WITHOUT peer pressur/parental pressure

your point about the increase in numbers referred is doubtless true, but I dont think its due to an increase in actual numbers, but more a case of greater recognition...not many years ago such sufferers, certainly at the more extreme ends of the scale would simply have ended up in places like Bedlam etc, whilst others would have just "got on with life " and suffered, or perhaps indulged in their "dirty little secret" in private, living in fear of being exposed....at least we are partway to addressing it....but there is still a long way to go...

and the way to go is for society to stop (as a mass) being a (as quill would say) cunnus.

I would also dispute your claim that a six year old is "gender unaware" as regards themselves ok they may well not grasp the full implications of it, but children are not robotic little eating machines. they are wholey as complex as adults, what they lack is the knowlege to flesh out the "feelings" the unconcious part of that whole that says "who am I" I doubt very many adults totally grasp that....

by Guest Mon Sep 11, 2017 5:36 pm

Syl wrote:
gelico wrote:
there was a story on twitter today about some boy in australia who decided he wanted to be a girl. his parents gave him hormone replacement tablets and he grew tits then aged 14 he decided no he wanted to be a boy again

i get what didge is saying about focussing on gender is wrong at such an age. they are mostly not even aware of gender anyway and should not be encouraged one way or another but we dont really know if that's the case or not

I am convinced that the VAST majority of kids who are feeling confused about gender are getting this off their parents in some way.

That could very well be the case. Though 80% do grow out of this by adolescence. To me there are many things we simple to do not understand about this Syl and I try to keep an open mind on this.
I have always supported Transgender people. So that is not even the points I am making on this. Its on where children are so young.

by Guest Mon Sep 11, 2017 5:38 pm

Sort your post out Victor if you want it replied to, its a mess

Second, explain to me why 80% of such children grow out of this by adolescence?

Which means clearly there is confusion within some children is their not?

My views are not on the 20% who gender assign when they reach puberty and are Transgender.

by Victorismyhero Mon Sep 11, 2017 5:40 pm

Thorin wrote:Sort your post out Victor if you want it replied to, its a mess

no its not its a quote followed by reply

Second, explain to me why 80% of such children grow out of this by adolescence?

because they have finally made up their mind????

jeepers

by Guest Mon Sep 11, 2017 5:41 pm

Lord Foul wrote:
Thorin wrote:Sort your post out Victor if you want it replied to, its a mess

no its not its a quote followed by reply

Second, explain to me why 80% of such children grow out of this by adolescence?

because they have finally made up their mind????

jeepers

Which means clearly there is confusion within some children is their not?

My views are not on the 20% who gender assign when they reach puberty and are Transgender.

Sort out the other post, its a mess.

Otherwise its ignored

by Syl Mon Sep 11, 2017 5:44 pm

We obviously have no idea whether the little dress wearing boy here is transgender, will be transgender when he is older, or just likes the feel and style of girls clothes over boys clothes.....or whether (as imo is probably the case) he is picking up confusion or has no guidance from his parents.

What is obvious is that 2 parents who have nothing to do with the little lad have made problems for their own kids where none needed to have existed.
In doing so, they have also made the lad in the dress a focus for all the local attention, because even though he hasn't been named, everyone locally will know who he is.

The Christian parents who have generated all this publicity have'nt really acted in a very Christian like manner towards that poor kid have they?

by Victorismyhero Mon Sep 11, 2017 5:47 pm

whether you call it confusion or I call it indecision matters little I suppose, the IMPORTANT thing is that they should be free to make up their own mind, free of pressure, be it from society or parents....

so if they want to swap from one to another and back once a week then thats ok.

I take the point of gelis post about the hormone therapy.. of course any PERMANENT intervention should/must be delayed until the last possible moment.

by Guest Mon Sep 11, 2017 5:54 pm

Lord Foul wrote:whether you call it confusion or I call it indecision matters little I suppose, the IMPORTANT thing is that they should be free to make up their own mind, free of pressure, be it from society or parents....

so if they want to swap from one to another and back once a week then thats ok.

I take the point of gelis post about the hormone therapy.. of course any PERMANENT intervention should/must be delayed until the last possible moment.

1) That makes absolutely no sense. Where they have not even assigned themselves a gender in the first place, but remain to their biological gender. So were they even suffering from gender dysphoria those that do not go on to be transgender? Was it some other Mental health condition? I have made it clear they should make up their own mind, which my main point is, free of pressure.

Your last point is very interesting

So have a read

http://nymag.com/scienceofus/2016/07/whats-missing-from-the-conversation-about-transgender-kids.html

https://quadrant.org.au/magazine/2016/12/gender-dysphoria-child-surgical-abuse/

This last one will make you chuckle though...

http://www.cam.ac.uk/research/features/why-be-human-when-you-can-be-otherkin

Otherkin? WTF?

scratch

by Guest Mon Sep 11, 2017 5:59 pm

It's up to the Christian parents if they take their child out of a school for whatever reason - its their choice .

I don't think is very healthy for a boy to be wearing a dress for school - but seems anything goes these days .

by Guest Mon Sep 11, 2017 6:03 pm

Syl wrote:We obviously have no idea whether the little dress wearing boy here is transgender, will be transgender when he is older, or just likes the feel and style of girls clothes over boys clothes.....or whether (as imo is probably the case) he is picking up confusion or has no guidance from his parents.

What is obvious is that 2 parents who have nothing to do with the little lad have made problems for their own kids where none needed to have existed.
In doing so, they have also made the lad in the dress a focus for all the local attention, because even though he hasn't been named, everyone locally will know who he is.

The Christian parents who have generated all this publicity have'nt really acted in a very Christian like manner towards that poor kid have they?

The Christian parents obviously want to bring their child up in as normal environment as possible - their values are just as valid as the parents and the child who wants to wear a dress. Its all about equality it works both ways .

by Victorismyhero Mon Sep 11, 2017 6:05 pm

VoD.....

whats "normal" ?

as opposed to merely well worn and "comfortable"

by eddie Mon Sep 11, 2017 6:11 pm

gelico wrote:
there was a story on twitter today about some boy in australia who decided he wanted to be a girl. his parents gave him hormone replacement tablets and he grew tits then aged 14 he decided no he wanted to be a boy again

i get what didge is saying about focussing on gender is wrong at such an age. they are mostly not even aware of gender anyway and should not be encouraged one way or another but we dont really know if that's the case or not

They are absolutely aware of gender at age six.

by eddie Mon Sep 11, 2017 6:14 pm

So what if they change their minds when they're older? I really cannot see a problem with letting a child experiment - how else will they ever know?

by Syl Mon Sep 11, 2017 6:16 pm

Vicar of Dibley (vod) wrote:
Syl wrote:We obviously have no idea whether the little dress wearing boy here is transgender, will be transgender when he is older, or just likes the feel and style of girls clothes over boys clothes.....or whether (as imo is probably the case) he is picking up confusion or has no guidance from his parents.

What is obvious is that 2 parents who have nothing to do with the little lad have made problems for their own kids where none needed to have existed.
In doing so, they have also made the lad in the dress a focus for all the local attention, because even though he hasn't been named, everyone locally will know who he is.

The Christian parents who have generated all this publicity have'nt really acted in a very Christian like manner towards that poor kid have they?

The Christian parents obviously want to bring their child up in as normal environment as possible - their values are just as valid as the parents and the child who wants to wear a dress. Its all about equality it works both ways .

So they were free to look round for a different school if the one their sons went to was too liberal for them.

I have stated that I would not have allowed my son to wear a dress to school, that's my choice, when he is of an age he can wear what he likes, if he has any sort of gender confusion I would have helped as much as possible.

If a child in his class chose to wore a dress, I would consider that the concern (or not) of the child and his parents to sort out....nothing to do with me and nothing to do with my child.

by Victorismyhero Mon Sep 11, 2017 6:18 pm

Thorin wrote:
Lord Foul wrote:whether you call it confusion or I call it indecision matters little I suppose, the IMPORTANT thing is that they should be free to make up their own mind, free of pressure, be it from society or parents....

so if they want to swap from one to another and back once a week then thats ok.

I take the point of gelis post about the hormone therapy.. of course any PERMANENT intervention should/must be delayed until the last possible moment.

1) That makes absolutely no sense. Where they have not even assigned themselves a gender in the first place, but remain to their biological gender. So were they even suffering from gender dysphoria those that do not go on to be transgender? Was it some other Mental health condition? I have made it clear they should make up their own mind, which my main point is, free of pressure.

Your last point is very interesting

So have a read

http://nymag.com/scienceofus/2016/07/whats-missing-from-the-conversation-about-transgender-kids.html

https://quadrant.org.au/magazine/2016/12/gender-dysphoria-child-surgical-abuse/

This last one will make you chuckle though...

http://www.cam.ac.uk/research/features/why-be-human-when-you-can-be-otherkin

Otherkin? WTF?

scratch

I doubt they were suffering gender dysphoria at all, they were, even if you consider them to be "gender neutral", doing what kids do, that is finding out by experiment (which really is what play is). See they dont suffer the guilt of adults about these things....so asking the question, perhaps even subconciously, "what is it like to be a girl" is best answered by then BEING a girl (given in the childs mind that the only difference is a dress and long hair) an option NOT open to most adults...(at least not if they want to be taken seriously) and besides we adults mess up the idea with other complicated things.....

by Guest Mon Sep 11, 2017 6:20 pm

eddie wrote:So what if they change their minds when they're older? I really cannot see a problem with letting a child experiment - how else will they ever know?

You are still not grasping the points I have made Eddie?

Let me make this clear for you.

I support Transgender people.

Second, I am have been very clear on a child being allowed to make its own decisions

So the above really shows you are clearly not reading what i am writing.

by Syl Mon Sep 11, 2017 6:23 pm

I think the parents are just publicity seeking tbh.
If they feel so strongly why didn't they simply change schools instead of causing so much bad publicity for themselves, their children, the boy who they are complaining about, and the school in general?

Christian parents take their son, six, out of Church of England primary school and plan to sue because a male classmate is allowed to wear a dress - Page 2 AArHpTm

Christian parents take their son, six, out of Church of England primary school and plan to sue because a male classmate is allowed to wear a dress - Page 2 AArHpTm

http://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/parents-defend-removing-child-6-from-school-because-of-transgender-pupil/ar-AArHEjQ?li=AAmiR2Z&ocid=spartanntp

by Guest Mon Sep 11, 2017 6:26 pm

Lord Foul wrote:
Thorin wrote:

1) That makes absolutely no sense. Where they have not even assigned themselves a gender in the first place, but remain to their biological gender. So were they even suffering from gender dysphoria those that do not go on to be transgender? Was it some other Mental health condition? I have made it clear they should make up their own mind, which my main point is, free of pressure.

Your last point is very interesting

So have a read

http://nymag.com/scienceofus/2016/07/whats-missing-from-the-conversation-about-transgender-kids.html

https://quadrant.org.au/magazine/2016/12/gender-dysphoria-child-surgical-abuse/

This last one will make you chuckle though...

http://www.cam.ac.uk/research/features/why-be-human-when-you-can-be-otherkin

Otherkin? WTF?

scratch

I doubt they were suffering gender dysphoria at all, they were, even if you consider them to be "gender neutral", doing what kids do, that is finding out by experiment (which really is what play is). See they dont suffer the guilt of adults about these things....so asking the question, perhaps even subconciously, "what is it like to be a girl" is best answered by then BEING a girl (given in the childs mind that the only difference is a dress and long hair) an option NOT open to most adults...(at least not if they want to be taken seriously) and besides we adults mess up the idea with other complicated things.....

So we are back to the point that a number of children are confused, who actually go on to understand they are cisgender, gay or bisexual in many cases. Thus would the encouragement of Transgender be effective in their aspect? Clearly not. Hence my point on how such children should have the support they need and not be encouraged to be Transgender but come to understand what they are themselves. Now we both know people are born gay. So clearly thus some gay children are being wrongly diagnosed as gender dysphoria.

I am also not sure you can truly understand what it is to be a girl, by dressing and acting like one. You are if Trans, know you are a girl. So my concern is where clearly a number are being wrongly diagnosed here. Where even more worrying they could end up having surgery and altering drugs. Before that child has reached adolescence and come to understand who they are.

by Guest Mon Sep 11, 2017 6:29 pm

Lord Foul wrote:VoD.....

whats "normal" ?

as opposed to merely well worn and "comfortable"

Normal is what people perceive as normal - someone may consider wearing a sieve on their heads normal -while others would consider it abnormal - the parents obviously consider a boy wearing a dress abnormal and wish their own son to be sheltered from the confusion and therefor consider boys wearing trousers or shorts to be normal .

I'm not saying the boy shouldn't wear a dress - I'm saying the parents have every right to protect their child from it as they consider it not normal .

by eddie Mon Sep 11, 2017 6:31 pm

Lord Foul wrote:whether you call it confusion or I call it indecision matters little I suppose, the IMPORTANT thing is that they should be free to make up their own mind, free of pressure, be it from society or parents....

so if they want to swap from one to another and back once a week then thats ok.

I take the point of gelis post about the hormone therapy.. of course any PERMANENT intervention should/must be delayed until the last possible moment.

Totally agree with this post.

by Syl Mon Sep 11, 2017 6:34 pm

Vicar of Dibley (vod) wrote:
Lord Foul wrote:VoD.....

whats "normal" ?

as opposed to merely well worn and "comfortable"

Normal is what people perceive as normal - someone may consider wearing a sieve on their heads normal -while others would consider it abnormal - the parents obviously consider a boy wearing a dress abnormal and wish their own son to be sheltered from the confusion and therefor consider boys wearing trousers or shorts to be normal .

I'm not saying the boy shouldn't wear a dress - I'm saying the parents have every right to protect their child from it as they consider it not normal .

But you don't protect your child by dictating what others should or shouldn't do Dib....surely you explain to your own child that people are different and though his way may not be your way that's OK.

by Guest Mon Sep 11, 2017 6:39 pm

Syl wrote:
Vicar of Dibley (vod) wrote:

Normal is what people perceive as normal - someone may consider wearing a sieve on their heads normal -while others would consider it abnormal - the parents obviously consider a boy wearing a dress abnormal and wish their own son to be sheltered from the confusion and therefor consider boys wearing trousers or shorts to be normal .

I'm not saying the boy shouldn't wear a dress - I'm saying the parents have every right to protect their child from it as they consider it not normal .

But you don't protect your child by dictating what others should or shouldn't do Dib....surely you explain to your own child that people are different and though his way may not be your way that's OK.

My kids are adults now but I did teach them people are different - although there was nothing like this when my kids were at school - this is all new .

Its up to the parents what they want to do and if their values are that they don't want their child to be confused by this then it is their right and their responsibility to do what they think right for their child . Their child might be really confused so its the parents responsibility to protect their child .

by Tommy Monk Mon Sep 11, 2017 6:42 pm

Children attending school should be dressed appropriately...

And it is the parents responsibility to ensure that they are... and the schools responsibility to ensure that rules are adhered to, that create a normal and healthy environment for all...

It is not up to a child to be deciding things...

by Victorismyhero Mon Sep 11, 2017 6:46 pm

trouble is tommy...you idea of normal and healthy isnt

its dictatorial, fossilised and wrong

thankfully views that are off to the tar pits to join the rest of the dinosaurs

by Tommy Monk Mon Sep 11, 2017 6:56 pm

The tail does not wag the dog...

by Syl Mon Sep 11, 2017 6:57 pm

Vicar of Dibley (vod) wrote:
Syl wrote:

But you don't protect your child by dictating what others should or shouldn't do Dib....surely you explain to your own child that people are different and though his way may not be your way that's OK.

My kids are adults now but I did teach them people are different - although there was nothing like this when my kids were at school - this is all new .

Its up to the parents what they want to do and if their values are that they don't want their child to be confused by this then it is their right and their responsibility to do what they think right for their child . Their child might be really confused so its the parents responsibility to protect their child .

Same here regarding our own kids, even my grandkids are long out of primary. Laughing

I totally agree that its up to individual parents to teach their kids their values, but this couple are trying to sue the school....they want to impose their values on everyone else.
If their children are confused, and they may well be if one day the other child is dressed as a boy and the next day in a skirt, the Christian parents could just explain that people are different, and though it may seem odd to them that little boy finds it normal for him.

Six year old children are very accepting, my son went to school with adopted kids, a downs syndrome child, black, Chinese, Indian kids....they could all have been odd to each other if that's how the parents had taught them. Christian parents take their son, six, out of Church of England primary school and plan to sue because a male classmate is allowed to wear a dress - Page 2 2190311264

by Cass Mon Sep 11, 2017 7:23 pm

eddie wrote:
Lord Foul wrote:whether you call it confusion or I call it indecision matters little I suppose, the IMPORTANT thing is that they should be free to make up their own mind, free of pressure, be it from society or parents....

so if they want to swap from one to another and back once a week then thats ok.

I take the point of gelis post about the hormone therapy.. of course any PERMANENT intervention should/must be delayed until the last possible moment.

Totally agree with this post.

Yup and Syl's viewpoints on the parents creating the hysteria and teaching children to be accepting of all.

Those poor kids are going to be in for a lot more shock and upset when mummy and daddy finally let them into the real world.

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