Australia foils Islamist 'terror plot' to bring down airplane

by Guest Sun Jul 30, 2017 10:02 am

First topic message reminder :

Australia has foiled an Islamist-inspired "terrorist plot" to bring down an airplane with an improvised explosive, authorities said Sunday, after four people were arrested in raids across Sydney. Prime Minister Malcolm Turnbull said the plot appeared to be "elaborate" rather than planned by a lone wolf, as security was beefed up at major domestic and international airports across the nation.

"I can report last night that there has been a major joint counter-terrorism operation to disrupt a terrorist plot to bring down an airplane," Mr Turnbull told reporters.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/07/30/australia-foils-islamist-terror-plot-bring-airplane/

by Syl Fri Aug 11, 2017 7:49 pm

Thorin wrote:
Syl wrote:

I was actually originally addressing YOUR point about dress....not Quills or Tommy's....so you are wrong.

What you often overlook when someone puts a point across that differs from yours Thor is we ALL have our own experiences and they may be at odds with yours.
I already said that areas are different....in MY area many of the Muslim men I know don't wear traditional garb in their day to day lives....in YOUR area you say they do.
If I can accept you are speaking from your own experience why cant you accept that others are?

Pointing this out is in no way agreeing with Tommy or taking the piss out of Quill....its MY experience.

I have not discounted your experiences but merely pointed out that they would amount to very little of you seeing or experiencing the vast majority of the Muslim community in the UK. So to expect your point on what you see, is trying to claim Muslim men do not wear garb when out based off the minimal amount you see. Hence its a very poor argument that does not hold up. You are then playing off this to then back up the arguments to discredit Quill. So yes you are backing Tommy by arguing that Muslim men wear western dress based off what you have seen. Never admitting that this is limited and it could well be probable that in other areas that they do.

So what purpose was it or you to point out what you saw Syl, if in many areas you would have no idea what Muslim men wore?

As there would only be one purpose if you did not factor in your experiences would not paint a realistic picture.

No purpose at all Thor...I am utterly useless in this thread, as is everyone else who disagrees with you. Rolling Eyes

by Original Quill Fri Aug 11, 2017 7:49 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

I was maneuvering him to bring down his real point, which I was finally able to do. In the meanwhile, I was amazed at how little he knows about London. But really, I was busy negating this point and that, leading him to bringing down his real point: his racism.

Pubs and Muslims/alcohol were all diversions tommy raised to avoid my inevitable checkmate. He's a squirrely sort.

You should stop this nonsense about him not knowing London - it's making you look silly, and you're creating a diversion too.

Well, I said earlier that the argument was finished. Any discrediting of tommy and London is not my doing, but his.

I'm really amazed...these side bar discussions are taking on a life of their own. Syl is talking about Muslim dress. You, Raggs, are talking about pubs and trying to bolster tommy's reputation. It's over...tommy admits he was only on about Muslims.

by Guest Fri Aug 11, 2017 7:50 pm

Syl wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:Oh, maybe Quill does need someone to hold his hand.

Look, Tommy is from London, and the stuff about Earl's court was just a misunderstanding.

The men on this forum can argue over anything cant they....why cant they be more like the ladies??

So now you make it about gender?

Again looking to mock men?

Seriously, why would i want to be more like a woman?

I mean would you want to be more like a man and then what kind of man are we talking about here?

I doubt many would want to be like what is subjective, in that of a Lady.

Do you mean Lady Godiva?

It seems the ladies are very argumentative here also, which i think has nothing to do with genders but passions, but if you want to make a sexist case here on this. I am all ears to your reasoning.

by Raggamuffin Fri Aug 11, 2017 7:51 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:

You should stop this nonsense about him not knowing London - it's making you look silly, and you're creating a diversion too.

Well, I said earlier that the argument was finished. Any discrediting of tommy and London is not my doing, but his.

I'm really amazed...these side bar discussions are taking on a life of their own. Syl is talking about Muslim dress. You, Raggs, are talking about pubs and trying to bolster tommy's reputation. It's over...tommy admits he was only on about Muslims.

What's wrong with talking about pubs? Did you ever go to the Cittie of Yorke pub in High Holborn?

by Guest Fri Aug 11, 2017 7:54 pm

Syl wrote:
Thorin wrote:

I have not discounted your experiences but merely pointed out that they would amount to very little of you seeing or experiencing the vast majority of the Muslim community in the UK. So to expect your point on what you see, is trying to claim Muslim men do not wear garb when out based off the minimal amount you see. Hence its a very poor argument that does not hold up. You are then playing off this to then back up the arguments to discredit Quill. So yes you are backing Tommy by arguing that Muslim men wear western dress based off what you have seen. Never admitting that this is limited and it could well be probable that in other areas that they do.

So what purpose was it or you to point out what you saw Syl, if in many areas you would have no idea what Muslim men wore?

As there would only be one purpose if you did not factor in your experiences would not paint a realistic picture.

No purpose at all Thor...I am utterly useless in this thread, as is everyone else who disagrees with you.

Where did I claim you were useless?

Never did.

So you invent things again to get out of reasons presented to you.

So now you turn to deligitimizing me based around a claim that I now think anyone who disagrees with me is useless?

Really?

Do you see how childish a claim that is you have made onto me, when I actually respect you?

Oh well, I see past poor "play the victims plays" in debates, so that just wont cut it Syl

by Syl Fri Aug 11, 2017 7:54 pm

Thorin wrote:
Syl wrote:

The men on this forum can argue over anything cant they....why cant they be more like the ladies??

So now you make it about gender?

Again looking to mock men?

Seriously, why would i want to be more like a woman?

I mean would you want to be more like a man and then what kind of man are we talking about here?

I doubt many would want to be like what is subjective, in that of a Lady.

Do you mean Lady Godiva?

It seems the ladies are very argumentative here also, which i think has nothing to do with genders but passions, but if you want to make a sexist case here on this. I am all ears to your reasoning.

I wasn't being sexist you silly man. Razz

And don't start on me because you have big ears....its not my fault. tongue

by Original Quill Fri Aug 11, 2017 7:55 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

Well, I said earlier that the argument was finished. Any discrediting of tommy and London is not my doing, but his.

I'm really amazed...these side bar discussions are taking on a life of their own. Syl is talking about Muslim dress. You, Raggs, are talking about pubs and trying to bolster tommy's reputation. It's over...tommy admits he was only on about Muslims.

What's wrong with talking about pubs? Did you ever go to the Cittie of Yorke pub in High Holborn?

Nothing wrong at all. I've even thrown in the Aquila piece. I guess the Australians have taken care of business. So we might as well go on...

by Tommy Monk Fri Aug 11, 2017 7:55 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:

He does know it. I told you before that he was being sarcastic, but you didn't listen. You're being silly towards him.

I was maneuvering him to bring down his real point, which I was finally able to do. In the meanwhile, I was amazed at how little he knows about London. But really, I was busy negating this point and that, leading him to bringing down his real point: his racism.

Pubs and Muslims/alcohol were all diversions tommy raised to avoid my inevitable checkmate. He's a squirrely sort.

Quill... for the last time... I have lived in London for all (the nearly 46 years) of my life... and have worked and gone out socialising all over London for near on 30 years...!!!

This thread is about an islamist terrorist plot in Australia... and you tried to make a point of how in London you have seen a mix of all races/religions in a pub happily having a beer together, specifically including Muslims in your claim...

I have been asking you to explain your claim for a few days now... but all you have given me is spurious waffle, twisting and spin...!

You say you saw 'beer drinking Muslims' in a pub, in among the mix of people all getting on and having a beer together... all I'm asking you is to clarify what pub this was, and to tell us how you could tell that they were Muslim...!?

Been waiting days for you to answer these two simple questions...!

by Guest Fri Aug 11, 2017 7:58 pm

Syl wrote:
Thorin wrote:

So now you make it about gender?

Again looking to mock men?

Seriously, why would i want to be more like a woman?

I mean would you want to be more like a man and then what kind of man are we talking about here?

I doubt many would want to be like what is subjective, in that of a Lady.

Do you mean Lady Godiva?

It seems the ladies are very argumentative here also, which i think has nothing to do with genders but passions, but if you want to make a sexist case here on this. I am all ears to your reasoning.

I wasn't being sexist you silly man.

And don't start on me because you have big ears....its not my fault.

If I had big ears i would not mind or if I was silly at times. That would be a great trait, but you invoke man again. Showing you are at times quite the sexist in how you view men.

I accept my faults and I have many. I work on them and one of the few people on here to admit when wrong and apologize.

I do not see many others on here do this. Mainly as its not a case whether they are right or wrong, but the belief they are incapable of being wrong.

So why bring up gender here unless you look down on or have a poor stereotype of men?

by Original Quill Fri Aug 11, 2017 8:00 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:You say you saw 'beer drinking Muslims' in a pub, in among the mix of people all getting on and having a beer together... all I'm asking you is to clarify what pub this was, and to tell us how you could tell that they were Muslim...!?

See?

Australia foils Islamist 'terror plot' to bring down airplane - Page 6 3408175593

Exactly as I described it.

by Raggamuffin Fri Aug 11, 2017 8:01 pm

Thorin wrote:
Syl wrote:

I wasn't being sexist you silly man.

And don't start on me because you have big ears....its not my fault.

If I had big ears i would not mind or if I was silly at times. That would be a great trait, but you invoke man again. Showing you are at times quite the sexist in how you view men.

I accept my faults and I have many. I work on them and one of the few people on here to admit when wrong and apologize.

I do not see many others on here do this. Mainly as its not a case whether they are right or wrong, but the belief they are incapable of being wrong.

So why bring up gender here unless you look down on men?

You don't work on them though. You persist with this idea that you're always right, and that anyone who disagrees with you is always "wrong". You also persist in this silly "take your time" business.

by Syl Fri Aug 11, 2017 8:01 pm

I was joking Thor.....its not my fault you are having a SOH failure....lighten up. Australia foils Islamist 'terror plot' to bring down airplane - Page 6 630750432

Australia foils Islamist 'terror plot' to bring down airplane - Page 6 630750432

by Guest Fri Aug 11, 2017 8:03 pm

Syl wrote:I was joking Thor.....its not my fault you are having a SOH failure....lighten up.

I call the above an attempt to run away, making poor excuses.

by Guest Fri Aug 11, 2017 8:04 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:
Thorin wrote:

If I had big ears i would not mind or if I was silly at times. That would be a great trait, but you invoke man again. Showing you are at times quite the sexist in how you view men.

I accept my faults and I have many. I work on them and one of the few people on here to admit when wrong and apologize.

I do not see many others on here do this. Mainly as its not a case whether they are right or wrong, but the belief they are incapable of being wrong.

So why bring up gender here unless you look down on men?

You don't work on them though. You persist with this idea that you're always right, and that anyone who disagrees with you is always "wrong". You also persist in this silly "take your time" business.

Really, so why would i ever apologize if I was always right?

Think about it?

by Syl Fri Aug 11, 2017 8:05 pm

Thorin wrote:
Syl wrote:I was joking Thor.....its not my fault you are having a SOH failure....lighten up.

I call the above an attempt to run away, making poor excuses.

Call it what you want....I call it having a joke.
Off now...(not running away, simply hungry)
Nighty night. x

by Raggamuffin Fri Aug 11, 2017 8:08 pm

Thorin wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:

You don't work on them though. You persist with this idea that you're always right, and that anyone who disagrees with you is always "wrong". You also persist in this silly "take your time" business.

Really, so why would i ever apologize if I was always right?

Think about it?

You only apologise when you've been abusive, and then you do it all again anyway ...

by Guest Fri Aug 11, 2017 8:12 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:
Thorin wrote:

Really, so why would i ever apologize if I was always right?

Think about it?

You only apologise when you've been abusive, and then you do it all again anyway ...

So if I apologize, does that not mean i admit I have been wrong?

by Guest Fri Aug 11, 2017 8:12 pm

Syl wrote:
Thorin wrote:

I call the above an attempt to run away, making poor excuses.

Call it what you want....I call it having a joke.
Off now...(not running away, simply hungry)
Nighty night. x

Have a good evening Syl

x

by Raggamuffin Fri Aug 11, 2017 8:13 pm

Thorin wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:

You only apologise when you've been abusive, and then you do it all again anyway ...

So if I apologize, does that not mean i admit I have been wrong?

You don't apologise for always claiming that others are wrong though. I just told you that, but you're introducing red herrings. Oh, and that "take your time" thing is silly too.

by Guest Fri Aug 11, 2017 8:15 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:
Thorin wrote:

So if I apologize, does that not mean i admit I have been wrong?

You don't apologise for always claiming that others are wrong though. I just told you that, but you're introducing red herrings. Oh, and that "take your time" thing is silly too.

Why would I apologise for not believeing someone?

Are you saying I have to apologise to all Christians because I do not believe Jesus is the Son of God?

Seriously?

Nice misdirection, but answer the question

So if I apologize, does that not mean i admit I have been wrong?

by Tommy Monk Fri Aug 11, 2017 8:15 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Tommy Monk wrote:You say you saw 'beer drinking Muslims' in a pub, in among the mix of people all getting on and having a beer together... all I'm asking you is to clarify what pub this was, and to tell us how you could tell that they were Muslim...!?

See? Exactly as I described it.

You still haven't answered the questions...!?

Laughing

by Guest Fri Aug 11, 2017 8:17 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

See? Exactly as I described it.

You still haven't answered the questions...!?

Why would he need to?

You would need to disprove that there is ever any Muslims in Pubs or that they are recognizable.

Going off where someone visited somewhere years ago and not live there is not a reason but attempting to deligitimize their point on memory of places and not people they saw.

by Tommy Monk Fri Aug 11, 2017 8:24 pm

Thorin wrote:
Tommy Monk wrote:

You still haven't answered the questions...!?

Why would he need to?

You would need to disprove that there is ever any Muslims in Pubs or that they are recognizable.

Going off where someone visited somewhere years ago and not live there is not a reason but attempting to deligitimize their point on memory of places and not people they saw.

You know how this works dodge...!

It is the responsibility of the person making a claim to back it up...!

Still waiting for him to do so...

Laughing

by Guest Fri Aug 11, 2017 8:34 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:
Thorin wrote:

Why would he need to?

You would need to disprove that there is ever any Muslims in Pubs or that they are recognizable.

Going off where someone visited somewhere years ago and not live there is not a reason but attempting to deligitimize their point on memory of places and not people they saw.

You know how this works dodge...!

It is the responsibility of the person making a claim to back it up...!

Still waiting for him to do so...

I agree its down to the person and the onus is on him.

So you do not believe him and I do.

We are thus at an impasse.

So now the onus is on you to show he is lying and that it is impossible to recognise a Muslim in traditional dress or ever be in a pub.

Good luck

Laughing

by Tommy Monk Fri Aug 11, 2017 9:24 pm

It is down to Quill to back up his claim and explain...

I have asked him to do so...

Been waiting days now for a proper reply...

Laughing

by Guest Fri Aug 11, 2017 9:27 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:It is down to Quill to back up his claim and explain...

I have asked him to do so...

Been waiting days now for a proper reply...

You have asked him and now I am asking you Tommy

As again

I agree its down to the person and the onus is on him.

So you do not believe him and I do.

We are thus at an impasse.

So now the onus is on you to show he is lying and that it is impossible to recognise a Muslim in traditional dress or ever be in a pub. As we are now talking about you proving to me its impossible he could have witnessed such a situation. You cannot argue off locations, as how can you. As he is a infrequent visitor to these shores and liable to make errors on place names.

So you have to disprove his claims would be impossible, based off not recognizing a Muslim and being in a pub

Good luck

Laughing

by Guest Fri Aug 11, 2017 9:31 pm

I love how you wait for me to go offline tommy, when you cannot counter my questions.

Laughing

I look forward to your evidence when next on

Good luck and all the best Tommy

Night

by Tommy Monk Fri Aug 11, 2017 10:31 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:You say you saw 'beer drinking Muslims' in a pub, in among the mix of people all getting on and having a beer together... all I'm asking you is to clarify what pub this was, and to tell us how you could tell that they were Muslim...!?

Still waiting...

Laughing

by Guest Fri Aug 11, 2017 10:34 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:
Tommy Monk wrote:You say you saw 'beer drinking Muslims' in a pub, in among the mix of people all getting on and having a beer together... all I'm asking you is to clarify what pub this was, and to tell us how you could tell that they were Muslim...!?

Still waiting...

Yes I am waiting Tommy

In your own time

Laughing

by Tommy Monk Fri Aug 11, 2017 10:58 pm

Your spurious statements are not relevant questions... and besides that, your interjection is way down the list of points to be answered... if needed to be answered at all...

I'm still waiting for the number 1 question to be answered... and for days now...!!!

So you can wait your turn...

Laughing

by Guest Fri Aug 11, 2017 11:05 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:Your spurious statements are not relevant questions... and besides that, your interjection is way down the list of points to be answered... if needed to be answered at all...

I'm still waiting for the number 1 question to be answered... and for days now...!!!

So you can wait your turn...

So you are now the Dictator to decide what is relevant?

Since when?

You made claims against Quill and only on shoddy geography and on his memory.

You have failed to disprove his claims, that you cannot recognize a Muslim or that they would ever be in a bar.

In your own time

Razz

by Tommy Monk Fri Aug 11, 2017 11:32 pm

You have already agreed that Quill needs to explain his claim...

Been waiting days now for him to do this...

First things first dodge...

Your interjection is way down the list...!

And you are in no position to demand anything!!!

Laughing

by Guest Fri Aug 11, 2017 11:36 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:You have already agreed that Quill needs to explain his claim...

Been waiting days now for him to do this...

First things first dodge...

Your interjection is way down the list...!

And you are in no position to demand anything!!!

Its not way down the list as its between me and you tommy.

Which means you are stalling

As we both know why

You cannot answer my points

There is no demands, its a simple reality you cannot disprove his claims

He cannot prove his

So we are at an impasse.

Hence the onus falls back onto you to prove it is inconceivable the claims he made.

Not based on geography

So again

You have failed to disprove his claims, that you cannot recognize a Muslim or that they would ever be in a bar.

In your own time

Laughing

by Tommy Monk Sat Aug 12, 2017 12:15 am

Quill made the claim of being in a pub and seeing 'beer drinking Muslims'...

He has been asked to explain how he was able to distinguish any of the 'beer drinkers' as being Muslims...

And after days of asking and waiting... I am still asking the same original question, and still waiting for an answer!!!

If he cannot substantiate his claim... then the claim has no credibility...

Therefore... claim = bullshit...!!!

Laughing

by Guest Sat Aug 12, 2017 12:21 am

Tommy Monk wrote:Quill made the claim of being in a pub and seeing 'beer drinking Muslims'...

He has been asked to explain how he was able to distinguish any of the 'beer drinkers' as being Muslims...

And after days of asking and waiting... I am still asking the same original question, and still waiting for an answer!!!

If he cannot substantiate his claim... then the claim has no credibility...

Therefore... claim = bullshit...!!!

I am now laughing you continue to wait until I log off the site

Quill has made a claim

You claim he is lying

I believe Quill

Quill does not have to prove to me his claim

You have to disprove his claim to me

Now do you understand?

So you cannot substantiate your counter claims

So again

Its not way down the list as its between me and you tommy.

Which means you are stalling

As we both know why

You cannot answer my points

There is no demands, its a simple reality you cannot disprove his claims

He cannot prove his

So we are at an impasse.

Hence the onus falls back onto you to prove it is inconceivable the claims he made.

Not based on geography

So again

You have failed to disprove his claims, that you cannot recognize a Muslim or that they would ever be in a bar.

In your own time

Australia foils Islamist 'terror plot' to bring down airplane - Page 6 Icon_lol

by Tommy Monk Sat Aug 12, 2017 12:29 am

Tommy Monk wrote:Quill made the claim of being in a pub and seeing 'beer drinking Muslims'...

He has been asked to explain how he was able to distinguish any of the 'beer drinkers' as being Muslims...

And after days of asking and waiting... I am still asking the same original question, and still waiting for an answer!!!

If he cannot substantiate his claim... then the claim has no credibility...

Therefore... claim = bullshit...!!!

Nobody cares whether you believe something or not... that is superfluous...!

Quill made the claim... he has been asked to explain... you are just being a pain...!!!

Laughing

by Guest Sat Aug 12, 2017 12:33 am

Tommy Monk wrote:
Tommy Monk wrote:Quill made the claim of being in a pub and seeing 'beer drinking Muslims'...

He has been asked to explain how he was able to distinguish any of the 'beer drinkers' as being Muslims...

And after days of asking and waiting... I am still asking the same original question, and still waiting for an answer!!!

If he cannot substantiate his claim... then the claim has no credibility...

Therefore... claim = bullshit...!!!

Nobody cares whether you believe something or not... that is superfluous...!

Quill made the claim... he has been asked to explain... you are just being a pain...!!!

Sorry, nobody?

Who are you speaking for Twatti?

Australia foils Islamist 'terror plot' to bring down airplane - Page 6 7b628db223c6cd91e01c10eeffde1cde--smiley-faces-smiley-emoji

Are you claiming to speak for all posters?

Seriously Twatti, you are embarrassing yourswelf

Now either answer my questions or head off to your local BNP Nick Griffin worshiping mass

Laughing

by Tommy Monk Sat Aug 12, 2017 12:52 am

You are superfluous...

Nobody cares what you think...

You are in no position to demand anything...!

Laughing

by Guest Sat Aug 12, 2017 12:55 am

Tommy Monk wrote:You are superfluous...

Nobody cares what you think...

You are in no position to demand anything...!

Sorry, nobody?

Who are you speaking for Twatti?

Are you claiming to speak for all posters?

So by the same reasoning you pose, who are you to demand off Quill?

Seriously Twatti, you are embarrassing yourswelf

Now either answer my questions or head off to your local BNP Nick Griffin worshiping mass

Australia foils Islamist 'terror plot' to bring down airplane - Page 6 Icon_lol

by Guest Sat Aug 12, 2017 1:04 am

So Tommy after many poor excuses cannot answer my questions

lol!

Oh well

Really have to go, night all.

by Tommy Monk Sat Aug 12, 2017 12:18 pm

Quill made the claim of being in a pub and seeing 'beer drinking Muslims'...

He has been asked to explain how he was able to distinguish any of the 'beer drinkers' as being Muslims...

And after days of asking and waiting... I am still asking the same original question, and still waiting for an answer!!!

If he cannot substantiate his claim... then the claim has no credibility...

Therefore... claim = bullshit...!!!

Laughing

by Guest Sat Aug 12, 2017 12:59 pm

And Tommy runs away again.

lol!

by Tommy Monk Sat Aug 12, 2017 1:45 pm

Nothing to do with you dodge... so run along now...!

by Guest Sat Aug 12, 2017 2:27 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:Nothing to do with you dodge... so run along now...!

So you are trying to tell me who I can now debate are you?

So you expect Quill to answer and yet run away from my points now

Laughing

This will continue every-time you post and fail to answer my points

by Tommy Monk Sat Aug 12, 2017 2:53 pm

I'm not interested in your waffle...

And yes I can tell you that when it's me you are trying to harass!!!

Keep on and i'll put you on ignore!!!

Laughing

by Guest Sat Aug 12, 2017 3:16 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:I'm not interested in your waffle...

And yes I can tell you that when it's me you are trying to harass!!!

Keep on and i'll put you on ignore!!!

Australia foils Islamist 'terror plot' to bring down airplane - Page 6 3489511464

Best double standard to date.

Again you failed to answer my points and I will continue to ask you as long as you continue to harass Quill

That is how it works sunshine

You can put me on ignore iff you like, that wont stop me posting to you dummy.

Australia foils Islamist 'terror plot' to bring down airplane - Page 6 4214183177

Australia foils Islamist 'terror plot' to bring down airplane - Page 6 4214183177

by Tommy Monk Sat Aug 12, 2017 3:33 pm

I've been waiting days for Quill to answer a simple question... once he answers it... then you will know how he was able to distinguish any of the 'pub beer drinkers' were Muslim...

It is not up to me to answer that for you...!

by Guest Sat Aug 12, 2017 3:37 pm

Thorin wrote:So Tommy after many poor excuses cannot answer my questions

Oh well

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