Choking to death: should we stop sending women to prison?

Even if many politicians are convinced by the ethical and economic case for closing women’s prisons, many feel they need to appear “tough on crime” to a public that demands punishment and retribution.

Gemma learned a lot from prison. On her first day in HMP Styal, eight years ago, she learned how to take heroin and crack cocaine. “I didn’t tell the girls I hadn’t done them before – I just wanted to fit in,” she tells me when we meet at Brighton Oasis Project, a charity for women with drug or alcohol addictions. By her second jail sentence, at HMP Bronzefield in Surrey in early 2013, she’d been taught how to “load up” with drug-filled condoms before her court date and how to avoid being “decrotched”: “when someone watches the cell door and they use a spoon to take the drugs out from inside of you”.

Gemma says she didn’t know before prison that if you slit your wrists the blood can spurt so high it hits the ceiling – but self-harm was so common at Bronzefield that a deep-clean team was often called in to mop up the bloodstains, and the staff carried knives to cut ligatures from inmates’ necks. One woman repeatedly tried to hang herself but the guards “didn’t do anything to stop it. They just put her on meds and kept on cutting her down.”

According to a study published in the Lancet in December, a quarter of female prisoners self-harm, and 102 female inmates self-harmed more than 100 times in one year. Self-harm is more common among women in prison than men: women make up 5 per cent of the UK’s prison population but account for 28 per cent of self-harm cases.



http://www.newstatesman.com/2014/01/choking-death


Plenty more to read ad also very interesting, but is that the right way forward, what do others think?

All prison officers mop up bloodstains, I've done it many times. Once one our prolific self-harmers played scrabble with me, I let her win and she went back to her cell and cut her wrist!

You want to hear the stories first hand? I have five years worth.

Warren Moon wrote:All prison officers mop up bloodstains, I've done it many times.  Once one our prolific self-harmers played scrabble with me, I let her win and she went back to her cell and cut her wrist!

You want to hear the stories first hand?  I have five years worth.

I think it would help to be honest Keith being as you have the experience of working in this environment

I think our whole justice system is fucked up because we are so confused between wanting to prevent crime wanting to catch criminals, wanting to punish and wanting to rehabilitate that we do none of them.

What I think unacceptable is we are still trying to differentiate between women and men - we are still presented with the idea that womens prisons should be closed because women "dont do the things men do"

As far as I am concerned gender should be irrelevant - if you kill someone the punishment is the same regardless of whether you have a cock or tits or both.

sphinx wrote:I think our whole justice system is fucked up because we are so confused between wanting to prevent crime wanting to catch criminals,  wanting to punish and wanting to rehabilitate that we do none of them.

What I think unacceptable is we are still trying to differentiate between women and men - we are still presented with the idea that womens prisons should be closed because women "dont do the things men do"

As far as I am concerned gender should be irrelevant - if you kill someone the punishment is the same regardless of whether you have a cock or tits or both.

Very much agree Sphinx, equality is just that, we thus go backwards with equality do we not if women are unable to serve time.

I also believe that for prison to be effective as either punishment or rehabilitation it must be impossible for people in it to break laws. Drugs are illegal in society - the last place they should be possible should be prison.

sphinx wrote:I also believe that for prison to be effective as either punishment or rehabilitation it must be impossible for people in it to break laws.  Drugs are illegal in society - the last place they should be possible should be prison.  

I agree that drugs should not be available in prison, however they should be legal or at least decriminalised in society, as I think it would cut down on crime, make drugs safer, deny income to criminal gags etc

PhilDidge wrote:

sphinx wrote:I also believe that for prison to be effective as either punishment or rehabilitation it must be impossible for people in it to break laws.  Drugs are illegal in society - the last place they should be possible should be prison.  

I agree that drugs should not be available in prison, however they should be legal or at least decriminalised in society, as I think it would cut down on crime, make drugs safer, deny income to criminal gags etc

Different argument.

It is not just drugs - they are just the first thing that comes to mind. Within prison it should be impossible to break the law as far as possible. If you want people to learn to obey the law the first thing they have to learn is that they cannot break it.

Part 1. The prison officer

Contrary to popular belief - British prison officers are not sadistic thugs, far from it.... every prison officer is selected and vetted for up to a year before being accepted for the role. Each applicant has to undergo at least three filmed tests or scenarios and are assessed to see if they meet the Ministry of Justice's requirement. How the hell I passed is beyond logic!

Depending upon the establishment training takes place for approximately six months, this is before any officer is "live" and several weeks is spent at a residential college. I was in my thirties and had a degree, but the daily classroom routine and homework that faced me was a real strain. Then there was the physical training and control & restraint classes in the gym. You are taught various break away techniques if somebody comes at you with a weapon or has hold of you. Then you are taught a form of jujitsu involving points on the body where pressure and special movements can be applied to gain control without causing major harm to the prisoner. You are tested at the end of the training and if you fail....you're out.

The classroom training covered a myriad of subjects such as:

Professional conduct
Diversity
Mental Illness (They never new about me)
Placing a prisoner on report
Interview techniques
Security
Motivating
Team leadership
PSO - Prison Service Orders
Duty of Care
Visits
Searching
Drugs
The powers of arrest that an officer has
LIDS - computer system
Probabtion
Resettlement
Racial discrimination
Bullying
Radio procedures
Prisoner escorts
Prisoner restraints
Hostage negotiation
Types of custody
Managing self harm and suicidal prisoners
Maintaining control
Preventing escapes
Audit levels

and lots more.

At the end of this the Ministry of Justice ended up with people who cared about the prisoners, knew the rules and provided a duty of care allowing the prisoners to address their offending behaviour, prepare for release and prevent those who should be in custody from escaping. Most of my colleagues were genuine good Samaritans who were professional and great to be with.


More to follow....

sphinx wrote:

PhilDidge wrote:


I agree that drugs should not be available in prison, however they should be legal or at least decriminalised in society, as I think it would cut down on crime, make drugs safer, deny income to criminal gags etc

Different argument.

It is not just drugs - they are just the first thing that comes to mind.  Within prison it should be impossible to break the law as far as possible.  If you want people to learn to obey the law the first thing they have to learn is that they cannot break it.  

Again I agree on that Sphinx, but less people to me would be going to Jail on the legal view of drugs, again another point, for another time

Double every single sentence as of next week.

Sod it - treble them.

And no early release.

Just build a few more - nice and cheap, no luxuries.

If they want to kill themselves or take drugs we don't want them on the outside.

Warren Moon wrote:Part 1.  The prison officer

Contrary to popular belief - British prison officers are not sadistic thugs, far from it....  every prison officer is selected and vetted for up to a year before being accepted for the role.  Each applicant has to undergo at least three filmed tests or scenarios and are assessed to see if they meet the Ministry of Justice's requirement.  How the hell I passed is beyond logic!

Depending upon the establishment training takes place for approximately six months, this is before any officer is "live" and several weeks is spent at a residential college.  I was in my thirties and had a degree, but the daily classroom routine and homework that faced me was a real strain.  Then there was the physical training and control & restraint classes in the gym.  You are taught various break away techniques if somebody comes at you with a weapon or has hold of you.  Then you are taught a form of jujitsu involving points on the body where pressure and special movements can be applied to gain control without causing major harm to the prisoner.  You are tested at the end of the training and if you fail....you're out.

The classroom training covered a myriad of subjects such as:

Professional conduct
Diversity
Mental Illness (They never new about me)
Placing a prisoner on report
Interview techniques
Security
Motivating
Team leadership
PSO - Prison Service Orders
Duty of Care
Visits
Searching
Drugs
The powers of arrest that an officer has
LIDS - computer system
Probabtion
Resettlement
Racial discrimination
Bullying
Radio procedures
Prisoner escorts
Prisoner restraints
Hostage negotiation
Types of custody
Managing self harm and suicidal prisoners
Maintaining control
Preventing escapes
Audit levels

and lots more.

At the end of this the Ministry of Justice ended up with people who cared about the prisoners, knew the rules and provided a duty of care allowing the prisoners to address their offending behaviour, prepare for release and prevent those who should be in custody from escaping.  Most of my colleagues were genuine good Samaritans who were professional and great to be with.


More to follow....

Keith do not for one second think my criticisms are aimed at the prison officers - they are not, they are as badly affected being stuck in a system that does not function as it should as the prisoners.

All I will ask is was the reality anything like the theory?

Neither am I keith, I think your perspective on prison's would be very interesting to see your own view of working them whether if people agree or not

anyone think a women should be sent to prison for not having a tv licence?


if she has young kids who pays to look after them?

if she is fined where does she get the money to pay?

if she has no money to get a licence,how can she pay a fine?

don't say she can do without a tv,it is not a luxury now days.

discuss

It's bloody ludicrous. No, it definitely shouldn't happen.

sphinx wrote:

Keith do not for one second think my criticisms are aimed at the prison officers - they are not, they are as badly affected being stuck in a system that does not function as it should as the prisoners.

All I will ask is was the reality anything like the theory?

Imagine the Nazi secret police, positively straining for somebody, anybody to shop their colleagues for any misdemeanor...  The women prisoners made the job fun and more bearable, especially the old-school villains.  In many instances I had a better rapport and mutual trust with my girls in my care than some members of staff.  

Here is one of many Governors of Holloway, Mr J. was fair, sensible and it was great to work for him:



The average person has no idea about the prison, it is not a typical "Victorian" design but more like a hospital.  Five storeys high in places and in the middle is this:



In the Summer during exercise it was lovely.  Most of the women would relax and sunbathe, all the flowers would be in bloom and it was great seeing daylight.  However, standing next to an alarm button during exercise on a freezing February morning was sheer hell.

Here is a glimpse of a typical landing or wing, showing a prisoner working as a wing cleaner.  Although each wing had it own colour scheme they were all very similar.  The two which were radically different were A5 (Lifer unit) and D4 (Mum and baby unit).




Here's my old Principle Officer Ms. Chatten (yes she is a she, not a lesbian and in fact her daughter also worked at Holloway).  This is taken outside the very office where I used to work.  The first ever dedicated male officer on the mother & baby unit.  I stood outside this office and spoke to Princess Anne - what a snooty cow.



More to follow.....

ERM keith...do you really think you should be posting those pics on a public forum??? ::dunno:: 

nicko wrote:
anyone think a women should be sent to prison for not having a tv licence?


if she has young kids who pays to look after them?

if she is fined where does she get the money to pay?

if she has no money to get a licence,how can she pay a fine?

don't say she can do without a tv,it is not a luxury now days.

discuss

Do you need your TV to survive?

No

It is thus a luxury, I went without a TV and a TV is nothing more than a substitute for a babysitter for some parents. Should she go to Jail for it?

No

Should she put her money to essentials for her children?

Yes

Should she sit and play and help teach her kids?

Yes


Does the Mother having more interaction this way giver better quality of life to the children than any TV?

Yes

nicko wrote:
anyone think a women should be sent to prison for not having a tv licence?


if she has young kids who pays to look after them?

if she is fined where does she get the money to pay?

if she has no money to get a licence,how can she pay a fine?

don't say she can do without a tv,it is not a luxury now days.

discuss

nope she shouldnt be jailed....flogged or the ducking stool possibly but jailed?????  

grumpy old git wrote:ERM keith...do you really think you should be posting those pics on a public forum??? ::dunno:: 

They're not mine...already on Google images.

I wonder why the Government put public information ads on TV? Because they know it's the best way to get the information to the public. And who needs the information? People who need help.

PhilDidge wrote:

nicko wrote:
anyone think a women should be sent to prison for not having a tv licence?


if she has young kids who pays to look after them?

if she is fined where does she get the money to pay?

if she has no money to get a licence,how can she pay a fine?

don't say she can do without a tv,it is not a luxury now days.

discuss

Do you need your TV to survive?

No

It is thus a luxury, I went without a TV and a TV is nothing more than a substitute for a babysitter for some parents. Should she go to Jail for it?

No

Should she put her money to essentials for her children?

Yes

Should she sit and play and help teach her kids?

Yes


Does the Mother having more interaction this way giver better quality of life to the children than any TV?

Yes  

Cue the violins, Cue the self righteous melodramatic clap trap. its 2014...not 1891

How's the old cardboard box under the railway tunnel ???

Warren Moon wrote:

grumpy old git wrote:ERM keith...do you really think you should be posting those pics on a public forum??? ::dunno:: 

They're not mine...already on Google images.

ok...i just wondered  :D 

grumpy old git wrote:

PhilDidge wrote:


Do you need your TV to survive?

No

It is thus a luxury, I went without a TV and a TV is nothing more than a substitute for a babysitter for some parents. Should she go to Jail for it?

No

Should she put her money to essentials for her children?

Yes

Should she sit and play and help teach her kids?

Yes


Does the Mother having more interaction this way giver better quality of life to the children than any TV?

Yes  

Cue the violins, Cue the self righteous melodramatic clap trap. its 2014...not 1891

How's the old cardboard box under the railway tunnel ???

No relevance at all, so you place a tv over interaction with parents/kids learning now do you?


It is non essential

First thing is what do people want from the CJS for victims of crime and for offenders? What do we want prison to achieve
Restitution
Retribution
Rehabilitation?

so is sex...but i doubt that you would get much agreement going round informing people they were "bad" for not being celibate

but as ever didge ...you win ...you know everything...oh great (liberalist) borg queen  

NemsAgain wrote:First thing is what do people want from the CJS for victims of crime and for offenders? What do we want prison to achieve
Restitution
Retribution
Rehabilitation?

depends on the crime to some extent I guess

for me

it would be for minor crime...like grafiti on my house...

restitution
rehab
retribution doesnt even figure

personal assault,(I would include theft, burglary etc in that )

retribution....as harsh and nasty as possible (unless i could be left to "have a word " with em)
restitution
isolation from society (for societies benefit)

anything more serious

as above but more of
and permanent isolation from society....

grumpy old git wrote:so is sex...but i doubt that you would get much agreement going round informing people they were "bad" for not being celibate

but as ever didge ...you win ...you know everything...oh great (liberalist) borg queen  

Sex is essential for procreation, what an absurd comparison.

I do not know everything but I know learning from books with parents or educational games with children is far more productive than sitting in front of the TV. The TV has made many children lazy today where now so many are becoming overweight and to me this is down to no enthusiasm to go outside and play in the garden etc, because they have computers, Tv etc to keep them occupied. Now there should be a balance of all these things even when you can afford them, but now people sadly as you do here now think of them as essential for children when they are not. It actually teaches your children to respect that what they do not have they do not miss, thus they are kept far more active in more fitting ways.

Can you not even see that.

NemsAgain wrote:First thing is what do people want from the CJS for victims of crime and for offenders? What do we want prison to achieve
Restitution
Retribution
Rehabilitation?

The officers work hard to help each offender address their lifestyle and offending behaviour, there are numerous courses and programs available to them along with educational services up to degree level if needs be.

Nems, what hurt me was when one of my girls was released but returned weeks later, often due to her friends or in many cases pimp. Recidivism meant our customers kept coming back.

yes didge...whatever oh great master

sex is only essential for procreation within the context of the species...otherwise you denigrate the relationship of the homosexual...
it IS NO essential to the individual...

TV is (arguably) essential in the context of the nation

but not for the individual

but as ever whatever......

grumpy old git wrote:yes didge...whatever oh great master

My pleasure, I am very good at chest but am no grand master!

Warren Moon wrote:

NemsAgain wrote:First thing is what do people want from the CJS for victims of crime and for offenders? What do we want prison to achieve
Restitution
Retribution
Rehabilitation?

The officers work hard to help each offender address their lifestyle and offending behaviour, there are numerous courses and programs available to them along with educational services up to degree level if needs be.

Nems, what hurt me was when one of my girls was released but returned weeks later, often due to her friends or in many cases pimp.  Recidivism meant our customers kept coming back.

Exactly right, our recidivism rates are so bad.
This would suggest prison doesnt work.
I also believe that sentencing someone to less than 12 months is meaningless as they wont get the education and courses etc. Thats before we even think about budget slashing and run for profit prisons.

PhilDidge wrote:

grumpy old git wrote:yes didge...whatever oh great master

My pleasure, I am very good at chest but am no grand master!

see my edit...oh great borg queen

grumpy old git wrote:yes didge...whatever oh great master

sex is only essential for procreation within the context of the species...otherwise you denigrate the relationship of the homosexual...
it IS NO essential to the individual...

TV is (arguably) essential in the context of the nation

but not for the individual

but as ever   whatever......

It is not essential even more so in regards to families as seen today those within the west are in general becoming overweight, due to such distractions.

Again a very absurd reply to say what ever and keep countering, oh well, as always has been a pleasure, I see you cannot move on as per usual and hold silly grudges, poor chap.

Hey ho and people wonder what is wrong today when they place a material object as essential to life, no wonder the world is going wrong!

Hey! Sex is fun and exciting, even better when there's two or more of you.

Warren Moon wrote:Hey!  Sex is fun and exciting, even better when there's two or more of you.

Did you always work in womens prisons?

No, women's undies.


Seriously, yes bought that is not what I chose.... they selected me.... that'll teach them.

Warren Moon wrote:No, women's undies.

They cant touch you for it!


Seriously, yes bought that is not what I chose.... they selected me.... that'll teach them.

I remember you said Holloway.

Night Nems x

PhilDidge wrote:

grumpy old git wrote:yes didge...whatever oh great master

sex is only essential for procreation within the context of the species...otherwise you denigrate the relationship of the homosexual...
it IS NO essential to the individual...

TV is (arguably) essential in the context of the nation

but not for the individual

but as ever   whatever......

It is not essential even more so in regards to families as seen today those within the west are in general becoming overweight, due to such distractions.

Again a very absurd reply to say what ever and keep countering, oh well, as always has been a pleasure, I see you cannot move on as per usual and hold silly grudges, poor chap.

Hey ho and people wonder what is wrong today when they place a material object as essential to life, no wonder the world is going wrong!  

 :-:bravo:-: 

grumpy old git wrote:

PhilDidge wrote:


It is not essential even more so in regards to families as seen today those within the west are in general becoming overweight, due to such distractions.

Again a very absurd reply to say what ever and keep countering, oh well, as always has been a pleasure, I see you cannot move on as per usual and hold silly grudges, poor chap.

Hey ho and people wonder what is wrong today when they place a material object as essential to life, no wonder the world is going wrong!  

 :-:bravo:-: 

 ::alahoo:: 

didge,have you any idea what life would be like if kids at school found out you had not got a tv? and I'm not talking about a 42 inch plasma,may be just a 21 inch set

Warren Moon wrote:Night Nems x

Night x
Im off to watch the Following

didge is stuck in the 1800's

As late as that? LOL

Sassy wrote:As late as that?  LOL

He is very typical of the mindset of the RW these days.   

......Do you hear the people sing, singing the sound of angry men......Hum..Hum..  :D 

Dear me, most of the people who hold left wing views here I enjoy the debate with, here is an example sadly of three who just cannot debate, proven by the last 3 replies, they take more stock in the fact they have not countered the main question posed by Nicko but act like 3 year olds  :D .

The reality was should a woman who cannot afford a Licence go to jail, which we all agree she should not, but the question that should have been asked is that by having a TV,, did she place herself into a situation, in the belief of doing something good for her children, but actually placing their life as a family unit in peril. She has with good intentions wanted to please here children but in reality being that she cannot afford this luxury has done the opposite. If she cannot afford to have the TV because she cannot afford to pay the licence, then the most sensible thing to do even more so being as she has little money is to trade in the TV, ensuring the needs of her children first.  

So as seen tweedle dum (sassy) and tweedle dee (Victor) and Oddbod (catman) have nothing of worth to say but as usual are only able to make snidey childish remarks, it just makes me smile, as that is the limit if thier intellect, as at least most of the other left wing posters can have a decent debate.

There you have it though most lefties would place the needs of the family first, not these 3.




See you tomorrow!

 :D

Oh for those posters who do not know who is oddbod:




 :D

Sassy wrote:I wonder why the Government put public information ads on TV?   Because they know it's the best way to get the information to the public.   And who needs the information?   People who need help.

Are you saying women should be treated differently to men?

If so are you saying women should be treated the same when equal pay for example us concerned but notvthe same when punishment is being dished out.

Equality is just that!

I Thought even you would understand that.

PhilDidge wrote:Dear me, most of the people who hold left wing views here I enjoy the debate with, here is an example sadly of three who just cannot debate, proven by the last 3 replies, they take more stock in the fact they have not countered the main question posed by Nicko but act like 3 year olds  :D .

The reality was should a woman who cannot afford a Licence go to jail, which we all agree she should not, but the question that should have been asked is that by having a TV,, did she place herself into a situation, in the belief of doing something good for her children, but actually placing their life as a family unit in peril. She has with good intentions wanted to please here children but in reality being that she cannot afford this luxury has done the opposite. If she cannot afford to have the TV because she cannot afford to pay the licence, then the most sensible thing to do even more so being as she has little money is to trade in the TV, ensuring the needs of her children first.  

So as seen tweedle dum (sassy) and tweedle dee (Victor) and Oddbod (catman) have nothing of worth to say but as usual are only able to make snidey childish remarks, it just makes me smile, as that is the limit if thier intellect, as at least most of the other left wing posters can have a decent debate.

There you have it though most lefties would place the needs of the family first, not these 3.




See you tomorrow!

 :D

So there we see your RW agenda, we see you picking on those LW posters that you have an issue with, without any kind of observation, yourself included, for the RW posters, that have been the cause of rows on here as well.