Great news for Great Britain

Today has seen the uk govt deliver the letter to the eu that formally announces our departure from the eu and the beginning of the restoration of democracy here in the uk!!!

Great day Tommy - at last the government is doing what the people voted for

Now we need to make sure that complete uk parliamentary sovereignty and democracy is restored!

Nothing left in place that leaves us being subservient to eu dictatorship!!!

Tommy Monk wrote:Now we need to make sure that complete uk parliamentary sovereignty and democracy is restored!

Nothing left in place that leaves us being subservient to eu dictatorship!!!

No money, no jobs, no trade NOTHING

All this thread proves here today, is that people like poor little Tommykins don't even understand the true meaning of some of those big words like "democracy" and "sovereignty"...

Meaning that their discussions are often seriously hobbled before they even start..        

It'll be unique to see their faces when they learn that they can't trade with the European Union, that the US won't back NATO, and NATO won't defend the UK unless the UK pays up equal to the US...which they cannot do because they have no trading partners, and hence, alas, no money.

Life's a bitch.

magica wrote:Great day Tommy - at last the government is doing what the people voted for

That sums it up really. Whether the outcome is good or bad, they are doing what the people voted for (the ones who bothered to vote anyway).

Original Quill wrote:It'll be unique to see their faces when they learn that they can't trade with the European Union, that the US won't back NATO, and NATO won't defend the UK unless the UK pays up equal to the US...which they cannot do because they have no trading partners, and hence, alas, no money.

Life's a bitch.

It's a sobering thought that this situation would not have arisen had the EU remained what it was originally set up to be - and more importantly how it was sold politically to the people of the early member nations: A mutually advantageous trading bloc and customs union.

At no stage in its history have voters ever been asked to sanction the progressive sequence from Common Market to European Economic Community to European Community to European Union.

And not one single opportunity has ever been offered to them even to comment on the clear and dogged determination of the unelected governing executive, the EU Commission, to achieve their goal of enforcing a de facto United States of Europe...the so-called policy of "ever closer union."

Some years ago there was widespread outrage at the revelation of plans to turn Europe into nothing more than a collection of regions under which, if I remember correctly, parts of the UK would be politically linked to parts of mainland Europe. The area in which I live would most likely have been in a region including areas of France including Brittany and Normandy. (OK, so it happened before, but a hell of a long time ago. And in any case, we owned them and not t'other way round!)

Labour's then Deputy Prime Minister, John Prescott, was tasked with an early trial...the formation of a single political region covering large swathes of north east England. The proposals were roundly rejected by the electorate.

In the meantime, Quill, I don't share your doom and gloom assessment of our future. Of course we can - and will- continue to trade with the European Union...because to do so will be mutually avantageous, in spite of the predicted threats and sabre-rattling from a bunch of Commissioners who have just had their collective noses put out of joint by ordinary people who have had the guts to demonstrate disobedience in the face of the endless unwarranted interference by officialdom in their lives and the never-ending flood of pettyfogging rules, regulations and directives.

+1000000

Fred M. wrote:In the meantime, Quill, I don't share your doom and gloom assessment of our future. Of course we can - and will- continue to trade with the European Union...because to do so will be mutually avantageous, in spite of the predicted threats and sabre-rattling from a bunch of Commissioners who have just had their collective noses put out of joint by ordinary people who have had the guts to demonstrate disobedience in the face of the endless unwarranted interference by officialdom in their lives and the never-ending flood of pettyfogging rules, regulations and directives.

You will trade with the EU, but at an extreme disadvantage.    You will suffer from extraordinarily high tarrifs.  When Scotland sees it must pay such tarrifs for Glenlivet and Oban, it will likely rethink its independence vote.  Inevitably it will call for a second vote, and likely it will free itself and rejoin the EU (as it was wont to do with Brexit).

So now England becomes itself, Wales and No. Ireland, for as long as that lasts.  But now consider NATO.

If you think Donald Trump is some sort of American joke, rewind and pause.  We've been thinking that for about 5-years, and each time we've found he is real, and he is serious.  He is in league with the Russians, and he is out to deconstruct NATO.  He will use cost disparities to make his move.  This comes right at the time when the shrunken England can ill-afford it.  Germany, France and the Lowlands will likely pony up, but England has left itself out in the blizzard.  You may well become a part of the growing Ukraine archipelago.

If nothing changes,  then nothing ever changes.
I'm sure the sky will not fall on our heads and all those who think the glass is half empty will never see change as a good thing.

Whether people think it's good or bad, change is coming. And that can only be a good thing no matter what happens in my opinion.

eddie wrote:If nothing changes,  then nothing ever changes.
I'm sure the sky will not fall on our heads and all those who think the glass is half empty will never see change as a good thing.

Whether people think it's good or bad, change is coming. And that can only be a good thing no matter what happens in my opinion.

Except, change was in the direction of globalization. Brexit is a backslide to the next prior form, nationalization.

Post-Soviet Russia is merely the organized crime side of corporate globalization, and it appears that the US is cascading into that pattern: Trump bought/blackmailed by Putin.

Original Quill wrote:

Fred M. wrote:In the meantime, Quill, I don't share your doom and gloom assessment of our future. Of course we can - and will- continue to trade with the European Union...because to do so will be mutually avantageous, in spite of the predicted threats and sabre-rattling from a bunch of Commissioners who have just had their collective noses put out of joint by ordinary people who have had the guts to demonstrate disobedience in the face of the endless unwarranted interference by officialdom in their lives and the never-ending flood of pettyfogging rules, regulations and directives.

You will trade with the EU, but at an extreme disadvantage.    You will suffer from extraordinarily high tarrifs.  When Scotland sees it must pay such tarrifs for Glenlivet and Oban, it will likely rethink its independence vote.  Inevitably it will call for a second vote, and likely it will free itself and rejoin the EU (as it was wont to do with Brexit).

So now England becomes itself, Wales and No. Ireland, for as long as that lasts.  But now consider NATO.

If you think Donald Trump is some sort of American joke, rewind and pause.  We've been thinking that for about 5-years, and each time we've found he is real, and he is serious.  He is in league with the Russians, and he is out to deconstruct NATO.  He will use cost disparities to make his move.  This comes right at the time when the shrunken England can ill-afford it.  Germany, France and the Lowlands will likely pony up, but England has left itself out in the blizzard.  You may well become a part of the growing Ukraine archipelago.

The trading terms remain a matter of negotiation, and the talking hasn't begun yet. The Commission may well start using threats of punitive tariffs pour encourager les autres because of the widespread disillusionment with the governance and workings of the EU in countries such as the Netherlands, Italy and France, but powerful European industries, notably the motor industry represented by Mercedes Benz, BMW, Audi and Volkswagen, will soon start exercising their considerable politically persuasive powers if they see their highly lucrative UK markets being threatened by reciprocal measures - as would inevitably happen.

In any case, you are falling into the trap of assuming that UK businessmen and the senior executives of companies and organisations in the financial sector are lacking in experience in worldwide trading as opposed to simply trading with the EU. They are not; they are rightly renowned for their abilities, expertise, innovation and ingenuity.

For example, the current weakness in the pound - much crowed over by Remainers as part of their never ending doom-mongering - has been, and will continue to be, exploited as a major boost to our exports and, hopefully from my personal point of view, in renewed efforts to re-establish and further strengthen our trading links with Commonwealth nations.

These links, to my mind, have been weakened in the past by the rules, regulations and restrictions imposed by the Commission in Brussels and we will now be far better able to develop them to an infinitely greater degree without the overweening dead hand of EU bureaucracy.

So far as NATO and its future is concerned, you know your President better than I do and your assessment of his motives and future actions may, or may not, be correct. Personally, given the sheer size and power or your military and the fact that Trump is, as you constantly tell us, a minority President who may well have the threat of impeachment hanging over him, I would be amazed if checks and balances were not in place which would be used if and when not only our future security, but also that or your own nation, came under threat.

I do, however, have fears for the future of the United Kingdom in its present form...but I believe that you are overplaying the phenomenon of Brexit. The Scottish Nationalist Party were never going to accept the "no" vote as returned in their own independence referendum and Brexit is simply a convenient excuse for them to have another go.

Like the Brussels Commission they believe that a vote in defiance of their will cannot be tolerated and that the electorate must be made to vote again - and again if necessary - to achieve the "correct" result. It has happened in the past when the Dutch and the Irish rejected EU treaty proposals in national referenda, and were simply made to re-run the poll until the Commission were satisfied that the required result had been obtained.

In Northern Ireland, in the meantime, Republican aspirations for unity with the South would never have gone away, Brexit or no, and my only surprise is that the Stormont regime lasted as long as it did.

Alea iacta est. ...

So we are now at a new chapter in British history.

I certainly do not share Fred's optimism here and I have a right, as any citizen to do so. We are now entering uncharted territory.

I will of course be more than happy to be wrong in this situation on Brexit and now that the divorce has started. Even more so, that it works out. I think any remainer would do so, as they do not want to see the Uk go down the pan.

One thing I know is that in far greater numbers does provide for a more secure and safe future for the UK. And Nato, with the formation of an Arab NATO (Authoritarian Nations), begs the question of how fragmented such an organisation will become. Remember many of the Nato nations are from the EU. That requires their backing also and I do not want to see the Uk being completely reliant on the US. So that point on NATO, just makes us even less independent and reliant on the US.

So much for that point and power brought back to the UK. We will simple be the lap dog of American policy. As how can we now disagree with the US or Russia, or China, without the backing of EU countries? We will simple not have the packing punch to disagree. As they can simple cut us off.

Remember it is the Uk that is reliant on trade with the world going forward. That places the UK at a disadvantage in any negotiations. Anyone claiming otherwise, are clearly not able to see how countries will easily be able to attempt to exploit this. The UK thus without the strength it had within the EU, is now vastly weaker.

Lets hope I am wrong, but until I see a secure future backed by strength. Then all claims to the future, are but speculation, including mine, but mine has possible actualities to them.

What is the future for the UK?

Who knows, lets hope its prosperous for everyone and not the opposite with ruin. As this country would simple not recover and we could then end up like Greece.

2 excellent posts moley... but you are wasting your time trying to educate the 3 stooges (veya/dogbreath/quill) as they constantly show that they each have no idea what they are talking about!!!


Dogbreath has even shown on this thread that he has no idea what democracy and sovereignty are...

Tommy Monk wrote:2 excellent posts moley... but you are wasting your time trying to educate the 3 stooges (veya/dogbreath/quill) as they constantly show that they each have no idea what they are talking about!!!


Dogbreath has even shown on this thread that he has no idea what democracy and sovereignty are...

Wow, so when people voice their views, you just attempt to deligitimize them, instead of taking on their views.

In other words, trying to silence them.

Even worse, that you wish to ignore concerns of others.

Even funnier that you resort to childish immature names to refer to me, when you explicitly name the only other two posters opposed to Brexit on this thread.

Show where I have no idea on democracy by my comments here?

You made an accusation, its time you backed it up?

Thorin wrote:

Tommy Monk wrote:2 excellent posts moley... but you are wasting your time trying to educate the 3 stooges (veya/dogbreath/quill) as they constantly show that they each have no idea what they are talking about!!!


Dogbreath has even shown on this thread that he has no idea what democracy and sovereignty are...

Wow, so when people voice their views, you just attempt to deligitimize them, instead of taking on their views.

In other words, trying to silence them.

Even worse, that you wish to ignore concerns of others.

Even funnier that you resort to childish immature names to refer to me, when you explicitly name the only other two posters opposed to Brexit on this thread.

Show where I have no idea on democracy by my comments here?

You made an accusation, its time you backed it up?

What!!!???

Where was I referring to you on this thread...!?

Tommy Monk wrote:

Thorin wrote:


Wow, so when people voice their views, you just attempt to deligitimize them, instead of taking on their views.

In other words, trying to silence them.

Even worse, that you wish to ignore concerns of others.

Even funnier that you resort to childish immature names to refer to me, when you explicitly name the only other two posters opposed to Brexit on this thread.

Show where I have no idea on democracy by my comments here?

You made an accusation, its time you backed it up?

What!!!???

Where was I referring to you on this thread...!?

Fair enough, you could have been referring to wolf.

I missed his post

My mistake

My apologies, if of course you are referring to him and not me, which would make sense as he attacked you

Of course I was referring to fleakeeper!

Why would you think 'dogbreath' referred to you...!?

Do you have dogbreath Didge...?

Tommy Monk wrote:

Of course I was referring to fleakeeper!

Why would you think 'dogbreath' referred to you...!?

Do you have dogbreath Didge...?

Sometimes in the mornings Tommy, yes.

Who does not?



To be honest, you generally refer to me as Dodge.

I simply missed Wolfs, post and wrongly perceived you meant me

Again my apologies

Fred M. wrote:The trading terms remain a matter of negotiation, and the talking hasn't begun yet. The Commission may well start using threats of punitive tariffs pour encourager les autres because of the widespread disillusionment with the governance and workings of the EU in countries such as the Netherlands, Italy and France, but powerful European industries, notably the motor industry represented by Mercedes Benz, BMW, Audi and Volkswagen, will soon start exercising their considerable politically persuasive powers if they see their highly lucrative UK markets being threatened by reciprocal measures - as would inevitably happen.

In any case, you are falling into the trap of assuming that UK businessmen and the senior executives of companies and organisations in the financial sector are lacking in experience in worldwide trading as opposed to simply trading with the EU. They are not; they are rightly renowned for their abilities, expertise, innovation and ingenuity.

You are in a bad negotiating position, while the rest of the EU are in a good one.

Original Quill wrote:

Fred M. wrote:The trading terms remain a matter of negotiation, and the talking hasn't begun yet. The Commission may well start using threats of punitive tariffs pour encourager les autres because of the widespread disillusionment with the governance and workings of the EU in countries such as the Netherlands, Italy and France, but powerful European industries, notably the motor industry represented by Mercedes Benz, BMW, Audi and Volkswagen, will soon start exercising their considerable politically persuasive powers if they see their highly lucrative UK markets being threatened by reciprocal measures - as would inevitably happen.

In any case, you are falling into the trap of assuming that UK businessmen and the senior executives of companies and organisations in the financial sector are lacking in experience in worldwide trading as opposed to simply trading with the EU. They are not; they are rightly renowned for their abilities, expertise, innovation and ingenuity.

You are in a bad negotiating position, while the rest of the EU are in a good one.

On that I very much agree.

We certainly do not hold any aces or any chance of a Royal Flush.

At best the Uk can only bluff.

well based of the EUs trade deals with other non EU nations you will have up to 100% tariffs on your good going into the EU and have to remove Tariffs on EU good coming in.

And Tommy
We are all from nations THAT HAVE made trade deals with the EU and know how shit they are because of the EU strong position when dealing with as a trade block with an individual nation. Thankful we are not reliant on them since we have trade deals with each other and in Australia case trade deals through out Asia which included the acceptance of the death of out local manufacturing industries.

as the Uk has little to offer in terms of trade, there is not an Industry it is very strong in global terms. While a member of the EU it did have banking but that was solely because of it's membership of the EU.

Can you or fred tell us what industry you think you are going to be productive in? cause manufacturing you'd need to drop the wage to a couple of pounds a day to be competitive, you've got no chance in mining and way behind the like of Australia, Brazil and New Zealand in agriculture.. US is dominate in media, Japan and Korea are dominate in computers and electronics...

Reality is going to Hit you like a tonne of bricks, I feel sorry for the likes of thorin that can see the obvious but get outvoted by fools

Original Quill wrote:

Fred M. wrote:The trading terms remain a matter of negotiation, and the talking hasn't begun yet. The Commission may well start using threats of punitive tariffs pour encourager les autres because of the widespread disillusionment with the governance and workings of the EU in countries such as the Netherlands, Italy and France, but powerful European industries, notably the motor industry represented by Mercedes Benz, BMW, Audi and Volkswagen, will soon start exercising their considerable politically persuasive powers if they see their highly lucrative UK markets being threatened by reciprocal measures - as would inevitably happen.

In any case, you are falling into the trap of assuming that UK businessmen and the senior executives of companies and organisations in the financial sector are lacking in experience in worldwide trading as opposed to simply trading with the EU. They are not; they are rightly renowned for their abilities, expertise, innovation and ingenuity.

You are in a bad negotiating position, while the rest of the EU are in a good one.

Personally, given the serious underlying problems in the Eurozone, next time a basket case EU member economy like that of Greece goes tits up (as it inevitably will) and the so far obliging Germans refuse to continue to bankroll it, I would say that all the ingredients are there for a catastrophic economic collapse. That prospect alone leads me to question whether the EU position is, as you claim, a "good one."

But for the grace of God - plus the refusal of past and present UK governments to ditch our national currency in favour of the Euro - we might well have found ourselves in the role of unenthusiastic paymaster alongside our German friends, as well as doing our shopping in euros.

Our negotiating position may not be ideal, but there are definite opportunities as well as difficulties out there and I, for one, believe that Great Britain Ltd will seize them.

In the meantime, US and other overseas commentators taking to the social media to decry the UK, its economy and its future prospects have little impact on me; what concerns me most is the eagerness with which many Remainers, embittered by the referendum result and incapable of accepting that they lost and that they themselves are not necessarily the best people to determine our future, lose no opportunity to talk down the efforts being made to secure the best possible terms, to belittle every positive forecast on future economic prospects (of which there are many) and seemingly to positively salivate at the thought that the present government might suffer a catastrophic defeat that will bring their entire strategy crashing down leading us to beg for forgiveness and a second chance.

...particularly when only recently, one of our leading local Remainer doom-mongers actually admitted that he himself did not vote in the referendum because the inconvenience it would have caused him on that particular day was outweighed by his supreme confidence that the vote would be overwhelmingly in favour of remaining in the EU!

My response to such people, of which I suspect there are many, is, quite frankly...tough shit.

Great post until you invoked a myth Fred.
How can and I can only guess the Abrahanic God, be full of grace, when he smites children?

Everyone has a right to a point of view also and to say tough shit is selfish. How is that democratic, when you only represent 38% of the voting public that voted to leave?

Are you saying, nobody has a right to speak out on a perceived wrong or complain?

So your bases to condemn people and even worse cast them aside as irrelevant citizens, is based on one single remainer you know, based off their views.

Would you feel the same, if we held you accountable for Britain possible going tits up, because you simple voted to leave?

Would you be responsible or accountable?

No

As none of can predict and its poor to judge in hindsight.

How about you listen and understand peoples concerns and stop trying to just brush them aside?

Is that not fair?

As it seems you are.

@fred

You do realize YOU have to try and trade with us

Your nations is NOT in as strong position to get is way in trade deals with any 1st world nation.
primarily because British buffoons are so insular in their care and thinking.

We have seen how many Brits on here suggest that trump means nothing to them Which since leaving the EU the president of the USA has a huge impact on your economy, You need to stop pretending you are a powerful empire and accept vassal hood like Australia does in order to secure trade deals, which means that the opinions that other nations have about yours MATTER A LOT.

Australia has spent a decade cultivating Chinese opinion of our Produce (that we have high standards and high quality produce)
http://www.theaustralianfarmer.com/ey-3.html
And as shown on this and every international forum most of the world does not share Britain's high opinions of itself.

veya_victaous wrote:@fred

You do realize YOU have to try and trade with us

Your nations is NOT in as strong position to get is way in trade deals with any 1st world nation.
primarily because British buffoons are so insular in their care and thinking.

We have seen how many Brits on here suggest that trump means nothing to them Which since leaving the EU the president of the USA has a huge impact on your economy, You need to stop pretending you are a powerful empire and accept vassal hood like Australia does in order to secure trade deals, which means that the opinions that other nations have about yours MATTER A LOT.

Australia has spent a decade cultivating Chinese opinion of our Produce (that we have high standards and high quality produce)
http://www.theaustralianfarmer.com/ey-3.html
And as shown on this and every international forum most of the world does not share Britain's high opinions of itself.  

The following export product groups represent the highest dollar value in UK global shipments during 2016. Also shown is the percentage share each export category represents in terms of overall exports from United Kingdom.

Machinery including computers: US$60.3 billion (14.7% of total exports)
Vehicles : $51.7 billion (12.6%)
Pharmaceuticals: $32.6 billion (8%)
Gems, precious metals: $27.5 billion (6.7%)
Electrical machinery, equipment: $27.1 billion (6.6%)
Mineral fuels including oil: $26.2 billion (6.4%)
Aircraft, spacecraft: $20.7 billion (5.1%)
Optical, technical, medical apparatus: $17.2 billion (4.2%)
Plastics, plastic articles: $11.2 billion (2.7%)
Organic chemicals: $10.8 billion (2.6%)

Vehicles were the fastest-growing among the top 10 export categories, up 80.8% for the 7-year period starting in 2009.

In second place for improving export sales was the aerospace category which gained 72.7% led by significant international sales for airplanes and turbojets.

UK exported gems and precious metals posted the third-fastest gain in value up 64.4% thanks to booming gold and platinum shipments.

(Based on statistics from the International Monetary Fund's World Economic Outlook Database and published by Trade Online just over a month ago.)

Not bad for such a small country.

Maybe we are not such amateurs at the art of international trading as some of you think we are.

May & Merkel have already locked horns over the divorce settlement.

No rush, girls, you've got two years to thrash it out.


It is thought that the 3 million europeans on here and the 1 million brits out there will be used a bargaining chip - no idea how. Maybe something to do with child allowances and pensions

I wonder what will happen now at the border between N.Ireland & the republic of Ireland. Will there be border controls all over again, like we had in the 70's & 80's?? It will probably be a mess.

Similar problems at Gibraltar, I imagine.

Does anyone know for sure?? I'm just curious that's all.

Fred Moletrousers wrote:

veya_victaous wrote:
@fred
You do realize YOU have to try and trade with us

Your nations is NOT in as strong position to get is way in trade deals with any 1st world nation.
primarily because British buffoons are so insular in their care and thinking.

We have seen how many Brits on here suggest that trump means nothing to them Which since leaving the EU the president of the USA has a huge impact on your economy, You need to stop pretending you are a powerful empire and accept vassal hood like Australia does in order to secure trade deals, which means that the opinions that other nations have about yours MATTER A LOT.

Australia has spent a decade cultivating Chinese opinion of our Produce (that we have high standards and high quality produce)
http://www.theaustralianfarmer.com/ey-3.html
And as shown on this and every international forum most of the world does not share Britain's high opinions of itself.  

The following export product groups represent the highest dollar value in UK global shipments during 2016. Also shown is the percentage share each export category represents in terms of overall exports from United Kingdom.

   Machinery including computers: US$60.3 billion (14.7% of total exports)
   Vehicles : $51.7 billion (12.6%)
   Pharmaceuticals: $32.6 billion (8%)
   Gems, precious metals: $27.5 billion (6.7%)
   Electrical machinery, equipment: $27.1 billion (6.6%)
   Mineral fuels including oil: $26.2 billion (6.4%)
   Aircraft, spacecraft: $20.7 billion (5.1%)
   Optical, technical, medical apparatus: $17.2 billion (4.2%)
   Plastics, plastic articles: $11.2 billion (2.7%)
   Organic chemicals: $10.8 billion (2.6%)

Vehicles were the fastest-growing among the top 10 export categories, up 80.8% for the 7-year period starting in 2009.

In second place for improving export sales was the aerospace category which gained 72.7% led by significant international sales for airplanes and turbojets.

UK exported gems and precious metals posted the third-fastest gain in value up 64.4% thanks to booming gold and platinum shipments.

(Based on statistics from the International Monetary Fund's World Economic Outlook Database and published by Trade Online just over a month ago.)

Not bad for such a small country.

Maybe we are not such amateurs at the art of international trading as some of you think we are.

I have here a Stanley Bailey #4 plane, and some Marples chisels and screwdrivers; and a Record Power dust extractor --  all proudly made in the U.K.

And the handlebars on one of my mountain bikes was also mnf'd in England..

They do certainly turn out some "good kit" over there in the Old Blighty...

Fred M. wrote:The Scottish Nationalist Party were never going to accept the "no" vote as returned in their own independence referendum and Brexit is simply a convenient excuse for them to have another go.

Like the Brussels Commission they believe that a vote in defiance of their will cannot be tolerated and that the electorate must be made to vote again - and again if necessary - to achieve the "correct" result. It has happened in the past when the Dutch and the Irish rejected EU treaty proposals in national referenda, and were simply made to re-run the poll until the Commission were satisfied that the required result had been obtained.

You will admit, however, that times have changed substantially since the last Scotland independence vote.  Scotland's economy faces ruin as a result of the loss of the EU as a friend and trading partner.

Given the changed circumstances, Scotland deserves another chance to vote their interests...don't you agree?

Veya... we don't have to try to trade with anyone... supply and demand takes care of that...


We want to buy some Australian wine... you want to buy our gin and whisky... trade happens... quite simple really... bit like yourself...!

Original Quill wrote:

Fred M. wrote:The Scottish Nationalist Party were never going to accept the "no" vote as returned in their own independence referendum and Brexit is simply a convenient excuse for them to have another go.

Like the Brussels Commission they believe that a vote in defiance of their will cannot be tolerated and that the electorate must be made to vote again - and again if necessary - to achieve the "correct" result. It has happened in the past when the Dutch and the Irish rejected EU treaty proposals in national referenda, and were simply made to re-run the poll until the Commission were satisfied that the required result had been obtained.

You will admit, however, that times have changed substantially since the last Scotland independence vote.  Scotland's economy faces ruin as a result of the loss of the EU as a friend and trading partner.

Given the changed circumstances, Scotland deserves another chance to vote their interests...don't you agree?

Times changed when the SNP ousted, and subsequently decimated, Labour as Scotland's natural party of governance, Quill...they are the rulers now and independence has always been their stated objective.

Wee Burnie would still be waving her claymore and crying "freedom" like William Wallace even if the UK had returned an overwhelming vote in favour of our continued membership of the EU, perhaps not at this very moment but certainly within the next five to ten years.

Maybe Scotland does deserve another vote, and maybe not, but if they get it I reckon that the canny Scots will not be completely blind to the fact that someone (i.e. themselves) will have to pay for their free healthcare prescriptions, university tuition, etc...because there will no longer be a Barnett Formula.

And come to think of it, given the current situation under which English MPs are not allowed to vote on issues purely affecting Scotland while Scottish MPs in Westminster are able to vote on purely English issues with impunity, would the idea of an English Parliament be such a bad idea? Just a thought.

Ps: Before anyone else mentions it, I know I haven't mentioned Wales and NI; my mind is concentrated wonderfully on tending a sick tractor this morning and I don't want further complications to cloud my judgement over which bit to unbolt first!

WhoseYourWolfie wrote:

Fred Moletrousers wrote:

The following export product groups represent the highest dollar value in UK global shipments during 2016. Also shown is the percentage share each export category represents in terms of overall exports from United Kingdom.

   Machinery including computers: US$60.3 billion (14.7% of total exports)
   Vehicles : $51.7 billion (12.6%)
   Pharmaceuticals: $32.6 billion (8%)
   Gems, precious metals: $27.5 billion (6.7%)
   Electrical machinery, equipment: $27.1 billion (6.6%)
   Mineral fuels including oil: $26.2 billion (6.4%)
   Aircraft, spacecraft: $20.7 billion (5.1%)
   Optical, technical, medical apparatus: $17.2 billion (4.2%)
   Plastics, plastic articles: $11.2 billion (2.7%)
   Organic chemicals: $10.8 billion (2.6%)

Vehicles were the fastest-growing among the top 10 export categories, up 80.8% for the 7-year period starting in 2009.

In second place for improving export sales was the aerospace category which gained 72.7% led by significant international sales for airplanes and turbojets.

UK exported gems and precious metals posted the third-fastest gain in value up 64.4% thanks to booming gold and platinum shipments.

(Based on statistics from the International Monetary Fund's World Economic Outlook Database and published by Trade Online just over a month ago.)

Not bad for such a small country.

Maybe we are not such amateurs at the art of international trading as some of you think we are.

I have here a Stanley Bailey #4 plane, and some Marples chisels and screwdrivers; and a Record Power dust extractor --  all proudly made in the U.K.

And the handlebars on one of my mountain bikes was also mnf'd in England..

They do certainly turn out some "good kit" over there in the Old Blighty...

I'm not sure whether to take your flag-waving icon and comments as sarcasm or approval and endorsement, Veya...but you have hit an important nail on the head.

The bits of "good kit" made in this country are greatly sought after worldwide, simply because buyers can rely on their quality and reliability. I'm sure your handlebars and tools will continue to give you long and excellent service.

There has recently been a series of excellent TV packages, notably on BBC fronted by the knowledgeable journalist Steph McGoven, featuring the many small to medium sized manufacturing firms that are turning out products of superb quality and making remarkable and increasing inroads into a relatively new (for them) market that they have now been obliged by circumstances to investigate, develop and exploit: The export market.

The stats I posted previously show the extent to which we are already and increasingly involved in the export of bulk major goods and services, but what is not included is the cumulative value of exports of high quality, competitively-priced and bespoke products manufactured by those highly efficient small to medium sized companies specialising in products backed by the most important attributes of all - quality and reliability.

These companies, to my mind, bear equal importance to our iconic export markets in things like chemicals, pharmaceuticals and vehicles, not only from the point of view of earnings but also in the creation of quality and well paid jobs.

And it is there, perhaps, that some of this country's greatest opportunities now lie.

Tommy Monk wrote:2 excellent posts moley... but you are wasting your time trying to educate the 3 stooges (veya/dogbreath/quill) as they constantly show that they each have no idea what they are talking about!!!


Dogbreath has even shown on this thread that he has no idea what democracy and sovereignty are...

agree.

Thorin wrote:

Tommy Monk wrote:

Of course I was referring to fleakeeper!

Why would you think 'dogbreath' referred to you...!?

Do you have dogbreath Didge...?

Sometimes in the mornings Tommy, yes.

Who does not?



To be honest, you generally refer to me as Dodge.

I simply missed Wolfs, post and wrongly perceived you meant me

Again my apologies

" />

Hi didge this might help - only kidding of course - it made me laugh what you said

Fred Moletrousers wrote:

Original Quill wrote:

You will admit, however, that times have changed substantially since the last Scotland independence vote.  Scotland's economy faces ruin as a result of the loss of the EU as a friend and trading partner.

Given the changed circumstances, Scotland deserves another chance to vote their interests...don't you agree?

Times changed when the SNP ousted, and subsequently decimated, Labour as Scotland's natural party of governance, Quill...they are the rulers now and independence has always been their stated objective.

Wee Burnie would still be waving her claymore and crying "freedom" like William Wallace even if the UK had returned an overwhelming vote in favour of our continued membership of the EU, perhaps not at this very moment but certainly within the next five to ten years.

Maybe Scotland does deserve another vote, and maybe not, but if they get it I reckon that the canny Scots will not be completely blind to the fact that someone (i.e. themselves) will have to pay for their free healthcare prescriptions, university tuition, etc...because there will no longer be a Barnett Formula.

And come to think of it, given the current situation under which English MPs are not allowed to vote on issues purely affecting Scotland while Scottish MPs in Westminster are able to vote on purely English issues with impunity, would the idea of an English  Parliament be such a bad idea? Just a thought.

Ps: Before anyone else mentions it, I know I haven't mentioned Wales and NI; my mind is concentrated wonderfully on tending a sick tractor this morning and I don't want further complications to cloud my judgement over which bit to unbolt first!

Best wishes and get well to the tractor.

I do think the old saw that Scotland depends upon England for all it's cash has been debunked. Scotland has the four best universities in the UK, a lively shipbuilding and fishing economy, and all that oil to support them. I'm sorry English MP's have been so constrained in their voting; but somehow I think they'll manage. I do think an all-English Parliament would be wise...we in California have a separate legislature and a governor, apart from that of the US since we started.

All of economics (except oil) is about to change. The UK is now an outsider in an all-Europe economic cartel, one which will per force give preference to insiders. With increased economic globalization on all continents, there may come a time when lone swimmers can no longer manage the open ocean. Of course, minority-president Trump has just put the US in the same boat with his rejection of the Pan Pacific cartel. But we still have NAFTA.

These are interesting times. We'll be watching.

Original Quill wrote:

Fred Moletrousers wrote:

Times changed when the SNP ousted, and subsequently decimated, Labour as Scotland's natural party of governance, Quill...they are the rulers now and independence has always been their stated objective.

Wee Burnie would still be waving her claymore and crying "freedom" like William Wallace even if the UK had returned an overwhelming vote in favour of our continued membership of the EU, perhaps not at this very moment but certainly within the next five to ten years.

Maybe Scotland does deserve another vote, and maybe not, but if they get it I reckon that the canny Scots will not be completely blind to the fact that someone (i.e. themselves) will have to pay for their free healthcare prescriptions, university tuition, etc...because there will no longer be a Barnett Formula.

And come to think of it, given the current situation under which English MPs are not allowed to vote on issues purely affecting Scotland while Scottish MPs in Westminster are able to vote on purely English issues with impunity, would the idea of an English  Parliament be such a bad idea? Just a thought.

Ps: Before anyone else mentions it, I know I haven't mentioned Wales and NI; my mind is concentrated wonderfully on tending a sick tractor this morning and I don't want further complications to cloud my judgement over which bit to unbolt first!

Best wishes and get well to the tractor.

I do think the old saw that Scotland depends upon England for all it's cash has been debunked.  Scotland has the four best universities in the UK, a lively shipbuilding and fishing economy, and all that oil to support them.  I'm sorry English MP's have been so constrained in their voting; but somehow I think they'll manage.  I do think an all-English Parliament would be wise...we in California have a separate legislature and a governor, apart from that of the US since we started.

All of economics (except oil) is about to change.  The UK is now an outsider in an all-Europe economic cartel, one which will per force give preference to insiders.  With increased economic globalization on all continents, there may come a time when lone swimmers can no longer manage the open ocean.  Of course, minority-president Trump has just put the US in the same boat with his rejection of the Pan Pacific cartel.  But we still have NAFTA.

These are interesting times.  We'll be watching.

Well, Quill, I remain the eternal optimist so far as the UK's future outside the EU is concerned.

I really don't think our friends t'other side of the pond realise just how undemocratic the EU actually is and just how much pettyfogging and often pointless restrictive rule and regulation making goes on in the Berlaymont Building in Brussels. I do; I've spent enough time there.

So far as our Scottish cousins are concerned (and here I have to declare an interest because my great-great grandmother was a Scottish Lady - with an intentional capital "L"- and I proudly wear her clan tartan on Burns Night every January) I think some of our English universities might disagree with your suggestion that the four best are north of Berwick-upon-Tweed. Though having said that, my own grandson will start his veterinary science studies at Napier University, Edinburgh in a few months' time!

Fishing? If the Scots go it alone and join the EU they will retain all the disadvantages that the UK has faced for years...Spanish "industrial" trawling of our home fishing grounds being just one.

Cash? Believe me, the Barnett Formula has given them huge advantages over the English and Welsh for years. An independent Scotland would be in for a seismic shock!

Oil? North Sea oil's days are numbered...and they know it. It certainly ain't the bargaining chip that it once was.

As you say, we all face interesting times. Perhaps, since that is based on the old Chinese proverb "may you live in interesting times", given the increasing importance of that part of the globe, with which our economic links continue to be developed, it could be quite a prophetic remark!

Best of luck with Trump. Personally I think that he's a weird bastard, but you lot elected him.

Did you know that in l'ill ol' England another word for trump is "fart"?

Oil...?

http://metro.co.uk/2017/03/28/one-billion-barrels-of-oil-uncovered-in-largest-undeveloped-discovery-in-uk-6539815/

Fred M. wrote:Did you know that in l'ill ol' England another word for trump is "fart"?

Appropriate, as Trump is something of a pig fart.

When I say 'interesting times' I mean that as a student of political and economic science.  I watch with a bit of detachment the movements toward nationalism, and view it as a regressive answer to the inevitable globalism going on.

Not that I'm a big fan of the EU.  I've listened in with horror at some of the things you Brits--especially Tommy--discuss about events and issues.  But I'm not sure the answer lies in running away.  

Globalism is here, and pretending you live in 1850 makes me a bit nervous.  It's like a cloud that is going to surround you whether or not you cocoon yourselves in a separate and isolated bubble of the past.  We may need answers, but running to the past only works at Disneyland.

Original Quill wrote:

Fred M. wrote:Did you know that in l'ill ol' England another word for trump is "fart"?

Appropriate, as Trump is something of a pig fart.

When I say 'interesting times' I mean that as a student of political and economic science.  I watch with a bit of detachment the movements toward nationalism, and view it as a regressive answer to the inevitable globalism going on.

Not that I'm a big fan of the EU.  I've listened in with horror at some of the things you Brits--especially Tommy--discuss about events and issues.  But I'm not sure the answer lies in running away.  

Globalism is here, and pretending you live in 1850 makes me a bit nervous.  It's like a cloud that is going to surround you whether or not you cocoon yourselves in a separate and isolated bubble of the past.  We may need answers, but running to the past only works at Disneyland.

I don't know what you are waffling about with all that nonsense rhetoric...


We're just getting our democracy back!!!

Glad I dont live in Gibraltar. Bet they are really chuffed with Brexit.

Angry Andy wrote:Glad I dont live in Gibraltar. Bet they are really chuffed with Brexit.

Interesting point to all.

Are people against Gibraltar being a British oversees possession?

Especially for rags?

The eu are trying to say that the UK leaving the eu, and the resulting uk relationship with the eu, will not be applicable to Gibraltar unless Spain agrees to it...!!!


Gibraltars chief minister Fabian Picardo has said this was 'unacceptable'...!!!

"...And the lies from the Remain camp? Legion and staggering — the end of western civilisation, war likely, our homes worthless, our jobs taken away. And the continual intimation that anyone who was pro-Brexit was a hate-filled xenophobic shitbag about to go out and lamp a Pole. Leaving the European Union was a racist thing to do, apparently. Or the thing racists did. Billy Bragg, that faded liberal luvvie, remarked that while not everyone voting for Brexit was a racist, every racist would be voting for Brexit. I suspect Billy thought that was on a par with Confucius, bless him. Not all twats buy Billy Bragg records. But all people who buy Billy Bragg records are twats..."

https://www.spectator.co.uk/2016/07/three-great-myths-of-the-sulking-remainers/

Whoa!  Another war?  From Falklands to Spain.  

Ask us...Spain's a pussy.  We kicked their ass, easy.

So the subject of Gibraltar has come up three times now, starting with my own post. The political, economic and cultural dynamics on the rock of Gibraltar are bound to change but it is hard to predict how - until negotiations start. Trade across the NI/Eire border will become interesting too.

Spain, where animal cruelty is still public entertainment.