Some questions about Brexit, and what I think about it

I'd welcome answers from anyone. I'm just (like many other people, around the world and in the UK) trying to better understand why this happened.

1) Why did British people feel the UK had to leave the EU? Please be as specific as possible about how EU membership created more harm than benefit for the UK.

2) What laws were imposed upon the UK, against the will of the British, by the EU?

3) For Brexit supporters -- if you could choose the top priorities for post-EU Britain, what would they be?

My position is that I support democracy, self-determination and freedom of expression. However, just like individuals, people acting in groups don't always make the wisest decisions. My country elected Bush for president in 2004. The hope for democracy is not that it will be perfect in the short term, but self-correcting in the long term.

I conclude that Brexit was unwise not because I am opposed to democracy, freedom, self-determination or free expression, or because I hate the British and want to see them under Europe's thumb, but because of the economic consequences of the decision. The devaluation of the pound, the hits to global stocks and the lowered credit rating issued by Moody's show that my concern is not unfounded.

Economic experts have said there's a chance that Brexit could kick off another global recession, and listening to the opinions of people who know what they're talking about does not make me a negative or selfish person.

Finally, the reason democracy exists in the first place is because people don't always agree. If you value democracy, therefore, you must accept the fact that people are allowed to disagree with you.

Wow, the silence so far is sort of an answer in and of itself. But I am surprised nobody stepped up to the plate.

Watch 'Brexit - the movie'... that'll give you a few reasons why we want out...

Tommy Monk wrote:Watch 'Brexit - the movie'... that'll give you a few reasons why we want out...

Can you give me any bullet points at least? I'd rather not have to watch a movie ...

Watch some of it then... that will tell you plenty...

This is a good account of things...


https://www.youtube.com/embed/JFt-pRIvL9E?&rel=0

firstly Ben...there is the issue of the "commission" ...now its supposed to be an advisory body with no political clout or agenda
therefor, quite rightly you may think, its top people are appointed by the eu parliament (since of course they are mere "civil servants...advisors...right???)

pfffft....from its inception it weilded far more power than was due to it and under various leaders, the worst and present of which Junker....it has virtually gelded the eu parliament and in a manner which utterly escapes me virtually seized control of europe.
so in fact we are NOW run by a body considting of unaccountable and unelected faceless whatevers....
it hasnt had its accounts signed off in who knows how many years and just keeps demanding more and more...

our "euro MP's" might as well not exist...the commission ignores them and imposes whatever at will....

secondly there is of course the lack of any political party capable of doing anything in europe...We theoretically have a veto on virtually anything...but they wont use it to scared weak or more likely corrupt....

NOW its NOT unreasonable therfor to say well if you wont do whats right for US then you cant go play at your club...In fact we are stopping you going to your club ...


thirdly, many of the so called "benefits are illusiory at best.......the right to trade.....pardon?...
you mean the right to trade with ONLY 500million people europe wide
when out there are 7 BILLION people we could trade with...but you will "fine" us (effectively) if we do...this means therefore that we pay more for EVERYTHING (since trade outside the eu is subject to eu tarrifs)

the right of free movement...again...pardon...

what does that mean....

oh yes I get it it means your folks can come here and depress our job market and wages and you can , by disregarding any sort of fair policy just issue anyone from anywhere with an EU passport and send em here for US to have to deal with provide for....NOW i could...maybe...just about live with ythat to some extent on humanitarian grounds IF YOU the (EU) were to pay us £60,000 per refugee/non eu migrant we took in under this ridiculous scheme (to at least partially pay the upfront costs of integration and setting them up here...Neve mind that at "some point in the future" they may (or may not) become a net contributor to our econom...the FACT is there are massive UP FRONT costs....)

and again free movement is a myth....people moved around europe freely BEFORE the EU....yes really...they did....

and it is at this point I would point out that if you say the word "racist" or intimate anything of the sort I will happily call you "hypocrite" since I have NOT seen yoiu criticise the Aussie "points based" system....(we Cannot do tis ...it is contrary to EU rules... Rolling Eyes

so yes immigration per se is NOT an issue (at least not for most pro brexit folks I have talked to) unrestricted uncontrolled immigration is...and the unreasonable and self serving actions of a perticular Mrs Merkel brought this to the fore in a way little else could have done.

over regulation

too much, too heavy, and misapplied across nearly ALL walks of life

interference in sovereign affairs...I gave you the example of old hook hand we eventually sent for you to play with..if it wasnt for the EU...you could have had him 3 years earlier at least, not to mention the 100's of other foreign criminals we are stuck with since we are unable to deport them....thanks to the EU. BUT of course you think it perfectly ok for Australia to deport a brit crim here...dont you?? I do beleive you have said so.....

oh and tommys link, although fronted by someone i Dislike immensely is spot on.....

Good post Vic... but why do you dislike condell so much?

Vic, that was the best explanation for leaving the EU I have heard.

But the left wing haters wont accept it.

Did you watch the video I posted nicko?

yes tommy, lot of truth in it.

Yes nicko.... That's why the lefties hate it... truth to them is like sunlight to a vampire...

I dislike condell because he comes across a a smug up himself bastard....

BUT i dont let that detract from the fact his message is often quite accurate......

oh and you can add to my points this

Europe (the political project of creating a continent of disenfranchised drones living under the illusion of democracy)
IS NOT europe(the trading partnership) we joined....

Lord Foul wrote:I dislike condell because he comes across a a smug up himself bastard....

BUT i dont let that detract from the fact his message is often quite accurate......

He is constantly telling the truth about things for the sake of truth alone... and constantly under fierce attack by pc lefties and progressives while always being proved right time and time again!!!


He has a right to be a little bit pleased with himself...

the problem with Victor's explaination
is that there is not a solution in it.
A list of complaints, however justified, are not going to achieve desirable out come.

Europe as a single federated nation was what everyone else understood the end goal of the EU to be, did you really not think that it was?

And Why do you expect this to be better?

Ben Reilly wrote:I'd welcome answers from anyone. I'm just (like many other people, around the world and in the UK) trying to better understand why this happened.

1) Why did British people feel the UK had to leave the EU? Please be as specific as possible about how EU membership created more harm than benefit for the UK.

2) What laws were imposed upon the UK, against the will of the British, by the EU?

3) For Brexit supporters -- if you could choose the top priorities for post-EU Britain, what would they be?

My position is that I support democracy, self-determination and freedom of expression. However, just like individuals, people acting in groups don't always make the wisest decisions. My country elected Bush for president in 2004. The hope for democracy is not that it will be perfect in the short term, but self-correcting in the long term.

I conclude that Brexit was unwise not because I am opposed to democracy, freedom, self-determination or free expression, or because I hate the British and want to see them under Europe's thumb, but because of the economic consequences of the decision. The devaluation of the pound, the hits to global stocks and the lowered credit rating issued by Moody's show that my concern is not unfounded.

Economic experts have said there's a chance that Brexit could kick off another global recession, and listening to the opinions of people who know what they're talking about does not make me a negative or selfish person.

Finally, the reason democracy exists in the first place is because people don't always agree. If you value democracy, therefore, you must accept the fact that people are allowed to disagree with you.

the majority of people did not vote to leave to stop immigration, that is a red herring. they voted to leave to regain control of our country and be the master of our own ship. I cant really think of a parallel, perhaps our american cousins might be able to think of something that happened like that in the last 240 years.
Although thankfully we did not have to have a war to gain our freedom.

I voted for sovereignty or the ability to control our own laws if you prefer. I didn't vote for it to stop dusky people entering the country. I welcome those who come here to work. I do hope it will mean that we wont have to accept those that come here not to work, but those details will be sorted out over time.

We can replace eurocentric laws with laws that benefit britain first.
we can also entirely hold the government of the day responsible for everything that happens, they wont be able to use the argument, we cant, it's europes fault.
And if the government of the day has the courage we can remove those deemed undesirable to the safety of our country without having to spend decades and millions of taxpayers money doing so.
What ever happens it will be down to the government of the day.


Some people voted to stay because they didn't want the tories trampling all over them. It is good of them to admit that labour are finished as a force in politics but governments inevitably change.
Those who voted to stay are no more traitors and quizlings than those who voted to leave are wacists, stupid or unable to comprehend what they voted for. I am sure there will be more insults as the days go by.

There are wacists on all sides of the political spectrum, there are stupid people as well. however when 17¼ million people vote for something it is rather arrogant to call them all either.


The world will not end because we leave, we are still in the G7,8 and 20 we are still a leading economy in the world, we still have a seat on the UN security council. WE are still a primary member of nato, you know those people that have actually kept the peace in europe for 70 years.


does that answer your question?

/\

Lord Foul wrote:firstly Ben...there is the issue of the "commission" ...now its supposed to be an advisory body with no political clout or agenda
therefor, quite rightly you may think, its top people are appointed by the eu parliament (since of course they are mere "civil servants...advisors...right???)

pfffft....from its inception it weilded far more power than was due to it and under various leaders, the worst and present of which Junker....it has virtually gelded the eu parliament and in a manner which utterly escapes me virtually seized control of europe.
so in fact we are NOW run by a body considting of unaccountable and unelected faceless whatevers....
it hasnt had its accounts signed off in who knows how many years and just keeps demanding more and more...

our "euro MP's" might as well not exist...the commission ignores them and imposes whatever at will....

secondly there is of course the lack of any political party capable of doing anything in europe...We theoretically have a veto on virtually anything...but they wont use it to scared weak or more likely corrupt....

NOW its NOT unreasonable therfor to say well if you wont do whats right for US then you cant go play at your club...In fact we are stopping you going to your club ...


thirdly, many of the so called "benefits are illusiory at best.......the right to trade.....pardon?...
you mean the right to trade with ONLY 500million people europe wide
when out there are 7 BILLION people we could trade with...but you will "fine" us (effectively) if we do...this means therefore that we pay more for EVERYTHING (since trade outside the eu is subject to eu tarrifs)

the right of free movement...again...pardon...

what does that mean....

oh yes I get it it means your folks can come here and depress our job market and wages and you can , by disregarding any sort of fair policy just issue anyone from anywhere with an EU passport and send em here for US to have to deal with provide for....NOW i could...maybe...just about live with ythat to some extent on humanitarian grounds IF YOU the (EU) were to pay us £60,000 per refugee/non eu migrant we took in under this ridiculous scheme (to at least partially pay the upfront costs of integration and setting them up here...Neve mind that at "some point in the future" they may (or may not) become a net contributor to our econom...the FACT is there are massive UP FRONT costs....)

and again free movement is a myth....people moved around europe freely BEFORE the EU....yes really...they did....

and it is at this point I would point out that if you say the word "racist" or intimate anything of the sort I will happily call you "hypocrite" since I have NOT seen yoiu criticise the Aussie "points based" system....(we Cannot do tis ...it is contrary to EU rules... Rolling Eyes

so yes immigration per se is NOT an issue (at least not for most pro brexit folks I have talked to) unrestricted uncontrolled immigration is...and the unreasonable and self serving actions of a perticular Mrs Merkel brought this to the fore in a way little else could have done.

over regulation

too much, too heavy, and misapplied across nearly ALL walks of life

interference in sovereign affairs...I gave you the example of old hook hand we eventually sent for you to play with..if it wasnt for the EU...you could have had him 3 years earlier at least, not to mention the 100's of other foreign criminals we are stuck with since we are unable to deport them....thanks to the EU. BUT of course you think it perfectly ok for Australia to deport a brit crim here...dont you?? I do beleive you have said so.....

oh and tommys link, although fronted by someone i Dislike immensely is spot on.....

2 eu countrys will sell eu passports for large sums of cash. I believe malta is one cant recall the other of the top of my head.

veya_victaous wrote:the problem with Victor's explaination
is that there is not a solution in it.
A list of complaints, however justified, are not going to achieve desirable out come.

Europe as a single federated nation was what everyone else understood the end goal of the EU to be, did you really not think that it was?

And Why do you expect this to be better?

have you ever read the 1975 EEC referendum leaflet. there is no mention at all about federalism. It is a trading partnership pure and simple.

I can't answer your questions in a bullet point fashion because it reduces everything into a clinical flip-chart session, in an office with faceless people and I can't talk about a topic like this, like that.

So I am going to answer you organically and the only way I know how, because I know you're taking this hard and I've tried all ways round it (and you can't say I fucking haven't) and you're still not listening.
So here is an answer to the main point of immigration, seeing as that's the hot topic of the forum.

Imagine you live in a house that's yours. You like it. You love it actually. It leaks a bit and it's a bit shabby and it's draughty in the winter and stuffy in the summer but you like it. You fell in love there once. It has five big rooms with nooks and crannies and each room has its own story. You like fixing the place up even though it's an ongoing project that never finishes, but that's ok cos lots of people help you. People come over and you say...."look at my house, it's not perfect but I love it....I can always see the stars no matter what window I look out of and during the day people wave at me and we call out 'hallo!' to eachother. It's a great house!"
Then the Big People come along and tell you that they're going to need you to reduce all your living space to two rooms because "new people" need the three rooms, and you do it because, well, you don't really need all that space and you certainly don't mind sharing the house with others - it's a chance to meet new people and share some recipes and drink beer together! The new people come and it's great. You fall in love again with some exotic girl who dances to the same tune as you and you love the new things you're learning. Then the Big People say "more arrivals!" and some more people come and you move all your two rooms into one room, but you worry a little becasue your exotic girl is now having your bouncy baby.  Never mind though, because it will be cosy and you can still see the stars!... and your best friend lives in the next room so all is well....except...except... the new people don't wave or call out 'hallo!' when they go past because they're different and they don't wave or say hallo where they've come from......you call out "How do you greet people!?" and they smile but you can tell they don't want to engage with you, they want to get their own rooms at the top of the hill where they live with other people who also don't always want to say hallo. You would like a bigger room at the top of the hill because you now have two babies and you need more space and your exotic girl doesn't dance anymore and she can't work because her boss had to close up his shop due to the shop next door selling cheaper products and putting him out of business. She doesn't dance and you don't hear the tunes.  You can't get a bigger room at the top of the hill though, because all the new people have taken them... You're getting tired of giving up rooms and space and tired of giving people your words and smiles and getting nothing back. The Big People say to you "I'm sorry but there's nothing We can do. We know it was your house but you gave us the rooms remember? You asked us to make the decisions for you so we did"
And you say "But I never asked you to make decisions for me"
The Big People say "Don't talk like that. Are you saying you hate the new people that came? Do you not want to help them?"
And you say nothing because they're  not listening anymore. They're  so far away, they live in a different land and they doesn't know your house with its nooks and crannies, and the pay don't  know your life and they haven't  seen your exotic girl and how she doenst smile so much anymore and neither do those people who used to wave at you...no one smiles. Not even the new people.
You don't want much. You just want a little bit of what you used to have and you want the Big People to stop making your decisions.


That's one story for one fuck up.
But that's my drift. Hope you catch it.

veya_victaous wrote:the problem with Victor's explaination
is that there is not a solution in it.
A list of complaints, however justified, are not going to achieve desirable out come.

Europe as a single federated nation was what everyone else understood the end goal of the EU to be, did you really not think that it was?

And Why do you expect this to be better?

are you blind, stupid or what....

across how many threads do I have to repeat it.....

a federation ala the USA might just be accpetable

the EU is NOT of that nature, not even remotely
Its a SHAM a lefty total control wet dream

jeezus...no getting through to some folks

as to whats better...anything has to be better than total dissolution into a grey lefty gloop....

the EU as a trading block was what we were sold ....NO mention of surrender to the faceless mandarins of the eu commission, un elected...unaccountable and uncontrollable....

which is what we are rapidly getting....

oh and if Irns sig should apply to anyone on here its you Veya......think about it...

cap doffer and forelock tugger...

exactly what you prescribe...

bow down to your eleite masters its dangerous to do otherwise

know what we call that here...spineless cowardice....

eddie wrote:I can't answer your questions in a bullet point fashion because it reduces everything into a clinical flip-chart session, in an office with faceless people and I can't talk about a topic like this, like that.

So I am going to answer you organically and the only way I know how, because I know you're taking this hard and I've tried all ways round it (and you can't say I fucking haven't) and you're still not listening.
So here is an answer to the main point of immigration, seeing as that's the hot topic of the forum.

Imagine you live in a house that's yours. You like it. You love it actually. It leaks a bit and it's a bit shabby and it's draughty in the winter and stuffy in the summer but you like it. You fell in love there once. It has five big rooms with nooks and crannies and each room has its own story. You like fixing the place up even though it's an ongoing project that never finishes, but that's ok cos lots of people help you. People come over and you say...."look at my house, it's not perfect but I love it....I can always see the stars no matter what window I look out of and during the day people wave at me and we call out 'hallo!' to eachother. It's a great house!"
Then the Big People come along and tell you that they're going to need you to reduce all your living space to two rooms because "new people" need the three rooms, and you do it because, well, you don't really need all that space and you certainly don't mind sharing the house with others - it's a chance to meet new people and share some recipes and drink beer together! The new people come and it's great. You fall in love again with some exotic girl who dances to the same tune as you and you love the new things you're learning. Then the Big People say "more arrivals!" and some more people come and you move all your two rooms into one room, but you worry a little becasue your exotic girl is now having your bouncy baby.  Never mind though, because it will be cosy and you can still see the stars!... and your best friend lives in the next room so all is well....except...except... the new people don't wave or call out 'hallo!' when they go past because they're different and they don't wave or say hallo where they've come from......you call out "How do you greet people!?" and they smile but you can tell they don't want to engage with you, they want to get their own rooms at the top of the hill where they live with other people who also don't always want to say hallo. You would like a bigger room at the top of the hill because you now have two babies and you need more space and your exotic girl doesn't dance anymore and she can't work because her boss had to close up his shop due to the shop next door selling cheaper products and putting him out of business. She doesn't dance and you don't hear the tunes.  You can't get a bigger room at the top of the hill though, because all the new people have taken them... You're getting tired of giving up rooms and space and tired of giving people your words and smiles and getting nothing back. The Big People say to you "I'm sorry but there's nothing We can do. We know it was your house but you gave us the rooms remember? You asked us to make the decisions for you so we did"
And you say "But I never asked you to make decisions for me"
The Big People say "Don't talk like that. Are you saying you hate the new people that came? Do you not want to help them?"
And you say nothing because they're  not listening anymore. They're  so far away, they live in a different land and they doesn't know your house with its nooks and crannies, and the pay don't  know your life and they haven't  seen your exotic girl and how she doenst smile so much anymore and neither do those people who used to wave at you...no one smiles. Not even the new people.
You don't want much. You just want a little bit of what you used to have and you want the Big People to stop making your decisions.


That's one story for one fuck up.
But that's my drift. Hope you catch it.

you forgot they have access to you bank account and for every pound you put in it they graciously give you 50p to spend on things they deem worthwhile.

veya_victaous wrote:the problem with Victor's explaination
is that there is not a solution in it.
A list of complaints, however justified, are not going to achieve desirable out come.

Europe as a single federated nation was what everyone else understood the end goal of the EU to be, did you really not think that it was?

And Why do you expect this to be better?

Who do you mean by 'everyone else'...!?


Not something the British people have ever been told... not something the British people have ever agreed to... not something the British people have ever voted for or given consent for!!!


In fact... that is exactly what we have been constantly getting told that it wasnt/isn't and never would be!!!


So technically our current position of being in the eu is based on lies and totally without the consent of the british people... therefore illegal and invalid!

Tommy Monk wrote:

veya_victaous wrote:the problem with Victor's explaination
is that there is not a solution in it.
A list of complaints, however justified, are not going to achieve desirable out come.

Europe as a single federated nation was what everyone else understood the end goal of the EU to be, did you really not think that it was?

And Why do you expect this to be better?

Who do you mean by 'everyone else'...!?


Not something the British people have ever been told... not something the British people have ever agreed to... not something the British people have ever voted for or given consent for!!!


In fact... that is exactly what we have been constantly getting told that it wasnt/isn't and never would be!!!


So technically our current position of being in the eu is based on lies and totally without the consent of the british people... therefore illegal and invalid!

well anyone looking on internationally did.
it is the obvious thing to do for Europe to retain relevance into the next century, as a federated nation it would have been economically toe to toe with the USA and China.
And Even China and the USA are looking at making larger Unions.
anyone smaller is trying to hitch a ride into one of them.
and then here is the UK trying to go on it's own


@Vic and Eddie
Yes I understand these are the reasons people chose national Seppuku.
I compleltely disagree with such short sighted foolishness.
rather than attempt to change it, to work with the hand you have been dealt
you have choosen to throw the game in since you didn't like your hand.
You expect to be dealt another and expect it to be better when it clearly will not be

the problem is you have had too good a hand in the past and cannot accept the cards you are currently dealt.

this could be an opportunity if you had a plan, but you don't.
Instead you have a bunch of day dreams that involve completely unlikely actions by other nations.
and pretends you still have the power and possessions of the past.

veya...do the planet a favor

stop spouting so much hot air...

Veya... the British people have never agreed to the eu and never agreed to the handing over of control of our laws rules or regulations to the eu...


The politicians who have agreed to this have never had the authority to do so...


It has never been theirs to give away... it belongs to the British people!!!

Tommy Monk wrote:
Veya... the British people have never agreed to the eu and never agreed to the handing over of control of our laws rules or regulations to the eu...


The politicians who have agreed to this have never had the authority to do so...


It has never been theirs to give away... it belongs to the British people!!!

SO?

Most people didn't agree to the china deals back then either, was never a vote.
Paul Keating the PM that made them was regarded as one of the worst,
unitl 20 years on when hindsight has proven his plan to be right,
we are reaping the benifits.
And now although still considered an arsehole,
no one disputes he was farsighted and right.

Australia should be glad we made friends with China back when no other western nation would.
we now get preferencial treatment in trade into the largest economy.
And also why England is going to find it hard, you simply are too late and have missed the boat on most of the new emerging markets, the deals that are most profitable now are matured and were established 20+ years ago.
and 20+ years ago you threw your lot in with the EU and while far from perfect to throw away the last 20 years of deals is a very risky move.

Twat...


The simple trade deal would have been OK... but it wasn't that was it...!?


That is the problem!!!


Then you go on to say the best trade deals with some of the emerging markets were done 20+ years ago and we missed the boat... cos we threw in to the eu...!!!???


We never agreed to this throwing in with the eu!!!


Do you not read what I'm saying...!?

And Tommy?
I mean you expect nations that are formed of british invasions to really think a peasent's agreement matters?

YES i hear you, dont care, zero sympathy like just about everyone else in the world. very few people other than Brits would be so concieted to think they are going to get a say.

And you have had your say and that is the point as well, Most of the world is treating this as the UK wants out ALL economic blocks and trade nto just eh EU, Cause no one has much interest in forming the sort of "trade only" isolated deals you want they are so last century.
we are all forming Economic Unions that are generally acknowledged to be the start of a singular governace.

Maybe you can tell us all about all Australia's trade arrangements with all these different countries...?


How many do australia have...?


With which countries...?


And how many of these real good ones are 20+ years old...?


Maybe you can tell us the dates of when all the others were agreed...!!!???

Here... I'll help you...



FTA (Free Trade Agreement) effective
FTA with New Zealand (effective January 1983)
FTA with Singapore (effective July 2003)
FTA with United States (effective January 2005)
FTA with Thailand (effective January 2005)
FTA with Chile (effective March 2009)
FTArea with AANZFTA (ASEAN, New Zealand) (effective January 2010)
FTA with China (effective November 2014)
FTA (Free Trade Agreement) negotiation
FTA with Malaysia (negotiation since 2005)
FTA with GCC (Cooperation Council for the Arab States of the Gulf) (negotiation since 2007)
FTA with Japan (negotiated 2014, not yet in force)
FTA with South Korea (negotiated 2013, not yet in force)
FTA with PACER Plus (Pacific Agreement on Closer Economic Relations) (negotiation since 2009)
FTA with Indonesia (negotiation since 2010)
FTA with TPP (Trans-Pacific Strategic Economic Partnership) (negotiation since 2010)
FTA with India (negotiation since 2011)



https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Australia

And China deal was only in place in 2015...

And details not entirely good for you lot...



http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-06-17/china-australia-free-trade-agreement-pros-and-cons/6553680

LOL

FTA don't happen over night
this is exactly what I am talking about
it took 20 years to get that deal
started the ground work back in '93

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Keating

veya_victaous wrote:LOL

FTA don't happen over night
this is exactly what I am talking about
it took 20 years to get that deal
started the ground work back in '93

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Keating

"...Mr Abbott and China's commerce minister Gao Hucheng signed the deal in Canberra today following a decade of negotiations..."


http://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2015-06-17/australia-and-china-sign-free-trade-agreement/6552940

Thanks to all for their input, but in the words of U2, I still haven't found what I'm looking for.

Was there a slap-in-the-face moment where the UK realized the EU wasn't right for it? I understand that things don't always fit into narratives like that, but I'm curious as to whether there was.

I'd like to go beyond the abstract here. I want to know what things Brexiters felt the EU was actively doing that caused tangible harm to the UK.

From what I've seen, people don't generally take drastic action until something is done that directly affects their personal lives or their livelihood. I'm really looking for that moment when the British decided, OK, the EU might keep the trains running on time but this (other thing) is something up with which we must not put!

Tommy Monk wrote:

veya_victaous wrote:the problem with Victor's explaination
is that there is not a solution in it.
A list of complaints, however justified, are not going to achieve desirable out come.

Europe as a single federated nation was what everyone else understood the end goal of the EU to be, did you really not think that it was?

And Why do you expect this to be better?

Who do you mean by 'everyone else'...!?


Not something the British people have ever been told... not something the British people have ever agreed to... not something the British people have ever voted for or given consent for!!!


In fact... that is exactly what we have been constantly getting told that it wasnt/isn't and never would be!!!


So technically our current position of being in the eu is based on lies and totally without the consent of the british people... therefore illegal and invalid!

Yes, "everyone else" forgot to tell the Brits what the end goal was. It sounds like the rest of the world was trying to decide the UK's future, and they've been told - well actually, it's not up to you, it's up to the Brits, so suck it up.

Veya's still on about British "invasions" The only invasion I remember is when we " invaded" France to kick out the Germans.

I think one of the latest and bigger triggers was TIPP (or whatever its called) which junker was interested in steamrollering through (and despite all the lefty waffle it WOULD have gone through...unaltered and in one piece

we simply do NOT want goods and foodstuffs made to American standards, that dont meet OUR standards as well....
half your food is poison and your overall approach to H&S leads many of us to conclude that (for instance) your electrical goods are NOT fit for use unless made to comply with our regulations....i beleive I have mentioned this before...since it is of interest to me...but your people actually pay huge shipping costs to buy table saws from europe...becasue we fit riving knives (splitters) , and Guards as standard you lot dont...in fact a lot of yours dont even have provision for a guard, and you have to buy and fit the splitter seperately...

and that is but one instance

my brother (stupidly ) brought his fridge back with him when he returned from a prolonged stay over your way Ben....(back in the 80's)...he came back becasue he decided it was just too dangerous a place to stay...something about "if i wanted to live in a war zone....."...however he brough this fridge back and ran it off a UK to US transformer. then it went wrong..so I had a look for him...customs should have thrown it into the dock....I took me a whole day just to make the wireing safe...whatever happened to the simple concept of pasing wires through a grommet if you have to go through a peice of steel???? rather than just puttting them through a rough drilled hole??? FFS

apply that to te whole range of agri chemicals. medicines and foods...and THAT is why TIPP is NOT WANTED....

but ther have been many many things that have "gone wrong"

i think another is the issues we had getting rid of old hook hand Hamza...where it became abundantly clear just how deep into our sovereign rights the EU had dug its tentacles...to EVERYONES detriment...

nicko wrote:Veya's still on about British "invasions"   The only invasion I remember is when we " invaded"  France to kick out the Germans.

veya wants to stick to his "bits and bytes" and leave the rest to people with brains...but you have to have patience ...you know as well as I do that IT folks are not wired up right. their brains just dont function the same way as anyone elses

before IT ...we would have sent em down the pit shovelling shit, or turned em into vicars, because they would have been damn useless for anything else....

nicko wrote:Veya's still on about British "invasions"   The only invasion I remember is when we " invaded"  France to kick out the Germans.

British have invaded nine out of ten countries - so look out Luxembourg

Britain has invaded all but 22 countries in the world in its long and colourful history, new research has found.

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21 of the 22 countries that have not been invaded by Britain


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/history/9653497/British-have-invaded-nine-out-of-ten-countries-so-look-out-Luxembourg.html

when did we invade greenland?

Ben Reilly wrote:Thanks to all for their input, but in the words of U2, I still haven't found what I'm looking for.

Was there a slap-in-the-face moment where the UK realized the EU wasn't right for it? I understand that things don't always fit into narratives like that, but I'm curious as to whether there was.

I'd like to go beyond the abstract here. I want to know what things Brexiters felt the EU was actively doing that caused tangible harm to the UK.

From what I've seen, people don't generally take drastic action until something is done that directly affects their personal lives or their livelihood. I'm really looking for that moment when the British decided, OK, the EU might keep the trains running on time but this (other thing) is something up with which we must not put!

You mean I wrote a great big long post and you're not going to take any points on board or even acknowledge the personal within the topic?
You have been given answers Ben. You just don't want to accept them.

I bear no responsibility for any "invasion" carried out by my Father or any other deceased relative. So why the fuck do people keep on about what the Brits did before I was born.






I bear no responsibility for what my Father or other long time dead relative did in the past, so shut the fuck up about it.

My dad fought against the Nazis and many of his mates died in protecting Britain. I DO care about what my father fought for.
I guess that is the difference between LW and RW. We care for others, RW care for themselves.

NO HA...NOT true...

you "selectively" care for others

"certain" foreigners
foreign criminals
other lefties

anyone else...you dont give a toss for unless they happen to suit your purposes.....

Whose side was your father on Foul?
I shan't  call you Lord, because you are no more a Lord than Moletrousers on Flop.

if I were you HA...I'd be very very careful.....

Unfortunately the natural rw sense of superiority carries no weight on here.
Your spluttering and indignant threat cuts no ice with me.
Perhaps I should change my name to King Andy. It's a higher rank than Lord.