Slaughter in Florida

First topic message reminder :

http://news.sky.com/story/1710712/orlando-nightclub-terror-attack-leaves-20-dead


Think carefully.
Gun law will relax even more under Trump.
He hates gays and lesbians. He will be helping load the guns.

Don't lock my thread Eds, it is a graveely serious topic that until Wolfie hijacked it.
Posters will make their own opinion of what Wolfie writes,  mostly they will squirm with incredulity.

I haven't gone into this very much yet, but one man managed to kill 50 people with a gun? That's surely got to be some kind of record.

A Guide to Mass Shootings in America

There have been at least 80 in the last three-plus decades—and most of the killers got their guns legally.

Mark Follman, Gavin Aronsen, and Deanna PanUpdated: June 12, 2016, 7:30 a.m. PDT
Update (6/12/2016): We are tracking the mass shooting in Orlando here and will update this database as details become clear.
Editor's note: In July 2012, in the aftermath of the movie theater massacre in Aurora, Colorado, Mother Jones created the first open-source database documenting mass shootings in the United States. Our research has focused on seemingly indiscriminate rampages in public places resulting in four or more victims killed. We exclude shootings stemming from more conventional crimes such as armed robbery or gang violence. Other news outlets and researchers have published larger tallies that include a wide range of gun crimes in which four or more people have been either wounded or killed. While those larger datasets of multiple-victim shootings may be useful for studying the broader problem of gun violence, our investigation provides an in-depth look at the distinct phenomenon of mass shootings—from the firearms used to mental health factors and the growing copycat problem. Tracking mass shootings is complex; we believe ours is the most useful approach.
The interactive map below and our downloadable database have been expanded with 18 additional cases from 2013-2016. Back in 2005, the FBI and leading criminologists essentially defined a mass shooting as an attack in a public place in which four or more victims were killed. We adopted that baseline when we gathered data in 2012 on three decades worth of cases. In January 2013, a mandate for federal investigation of mass shootings authorized by President Barack Obama lowered that baseline to three or more victims. Accordingly, we include attacks dating from January 2013 in which three or more victims died. Our original analysis, which covers cases with four or more victims killed from 1982-2012, follows below. The cases we have documented since then using the revised federal baseline reaffirm our major findings.
 

Can they be prevented from striking?
It is perhaps too easy to forget how many times this has happened. The horrific massacre at a movie theater in Aurora, Colorado, in July 2012, another at a Sikh temple in Wisconsin that August, another at a manufacturer in Minneapolis that September—and then the unthinkable nightmare at a Connecticut elementary school that December—were some of the latest in an epidemic of such gun violence over the last three-plus decades. Since 1982, there have been at least 80 public mass shootings across the country, with the killings unfolding in 33 states from Massachusetts to Hawaii. Forty-three of these mass shootings have occurred since 2006. Seven of them took place in 2012 alone, including Sandy Hook. A recent analysis of this database by researchers at Harvard University, further corroborated by a recent FBI study, determined that mass shootings have been on the rise.
We've gathered detailed data on more than three decades of cases and mapped them below, including information on the attackers' profiles, the types of weapons they used, and the number of victims they injured and killed. The following analysis covers our original dataset comprised of 62 cases from 1982-2012.
Weapons: Of the 143 guns possessed by the killers, more than three quarters were obtained legally. The arsenal included dozens of assault weapons and semi-automatic handguns with high-capacity magazines. (See charts below.) Just as a perpetrator used a .40-caliber Glock to slaughter students in Red Lake, Minnesota, in 2005, so too did the one in Aurora, along with an AR-15 assault rifle, when blasting away at his victims in a darkened movie theater. In Newtown, Connecticut, the attacker wielded a .223 Bushmaster semi-automatic assault rifle as he massacred 20 school children and six adults.
The perpetrators: More than half of the cases involved school or workplace shootings (12 and 20, respectively); the other 30 cases took place in locations including shopping malls, restaurants, and religious and government buildings. Forty-four of the killers were white males. Only one was a woman. (See Goleta, Calif., in 2006.) The average age of the killers was 35, though the youngest among them was a mere 11 years old. (See Jonesboro, Ark., in 1998.) A majority were mentally troubled—and many displayed signs of mental health problems before setting out to kill. Explore the map for further details—we do not consider it to be all-inclusive, but based on the criteria we used, we believe that we've produced the most comprehensive rundown available on this particular type of violence. (Mass shootings represent only a sliver of America's overall gun violence.) For the stories of the 151 shooting rampage victims of 2012, click here, and for our groundbreaking investigation into the economic costs of the nation's gun violence, including mass shootings, click here.
Click on the dots or use the search tool in the top-right corner of the map to go to a specific location. (Zoom in to find cases located geographically close together in Colorado, Texas, Wisconsin, and elsewhere.)

Our focus is on public mass shootings in which the motive appeared to be indiscriminate killing. We used the following criteria to identify cases:

• The shooter took the lives of at least four people. An FBI crime classification report identifies an individual as a mass murderer—versus a spree killer or a serial killer—if he kills four or more people in a single incident (not including himself), typically in a single location.
  
• The killings were carried out by a lone shooter. (Except in the case of the Columbine massacre and the Westside Middle School killings, which involved two shooters.)
  
• The shootings occurred in a public place. (Except in the case of a party on private property in Crandon, Wisconsin, and another in Seattle, where crowds of strangers had gathered.) Crimes primarily related to gang activity, armed robbery, or domestic violence in homes are not included.
  
• If the shooter died or was hurt from injuries sustained during the incident, he is included in the total victim count. (But we have excluded many cases in which there were three fatalities and the shooter also died, per the above FBI criterion.)
  
• We included a handful of cases also known as "spree killings"—cases in which the killings occurred in more than one location over a short period of time, that otherwise fit the above criteria.
  

For more on the thinking behind our criteria, see our mass shootings explainer. Plus: more on the crucial mental illness factor, and on the recent barrage of state laws rolling back gun restrictions across the US. And: Explore the full data set behind our investigation.
Here are two charts detailing the killers' weapons:






http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/07/mass-shootings-map 

********************

I've often used 'Mother Jones' as a very reliable - factual news source with solid data.  They will be updating their graphs once all of the information has been gathered/sorted from Orlando.

If they hadn't got guns legally then they would have got them illegally, or just used a different weapon of death...

HoratioTarr wrote:

Paul Ettinger wrote:I see people are missing the point again and blaming guns, which people are always going to be able to lay their hands on and not anyone is questioning why he murdered so many homosexuals. His father straight away plays the not in the name of religion card, but was no doubt instrunmental in how this boy grew up hating homosexuals of which nobody is questioning. I mean does it not strike you how quick the father was to respond to shift blame and claim homophobia? When already he has been known to the FBI and his views on terrorism and extremism?

How often are people failing to see the hate formulated by religion and I bet very much this wanker was brought up hating homosexuality as is taught within Islam and all the Abrahamic faiths. At least many Jews and Christians have progressed but clarly again we see within Islam those who simply are unable to live peacefully side by side with those who are in love. Again no fear he would die himself and why? The control of fear itself formulatd over years of religious bullshit he was no doubt brought up on, that values death over life. Guns are just the means to carry out the attack, they were not what caused the attack.

Radical Islam tends to glorify the hatred and intolerance of others, creating a kind of twisted glamour that these idiots take for real.    No doubt he had fantasies about being a 'someone' like those idiots who pretend they're SAS.

That's what all religion does.  Evangelical Christians are the same.  Evangelical Christian George W. Bush gratuitously made war on Iraq, and it turned out to be our longest, most costly war ever.  

Imagine those southern redneck evangelicals in Georgia and North Carolina whooping it up over the baby killing by F-18s on nightly news.  And don't the British and Americans have fantasies about being 'someone'?  It's like an optical illusion: we see it clearly when it's on the other side; it's not so clear when it's us.

Notes: Frankly, the pundits are beginning to question this guy's jihadist quotient, anyway.  The FBI interviewed him three times, mostly because of his father, and they determined he was harmless.  On the phone call with hostage negotiators he at one time said, 'I support ISIS' and mentioned that the US should stop bombing over there.  Well I think they should stop the bombing, and I'm a Presbyterian elder.  Those bombs are damn expensive, and I don't want my tax dollar going to waste when we could be spending it on a national healthcare program.

If religion was banned, people would reinvent it -- just like if drugs were eradicated, people would recreate them.

Religion tells you who you are, who the enemy is, that you're good, that you're safe, that the most powerful being imaginable loves you. People are never going to stop wanting to feel things like that.

As long as there are people, there will be people who feel the need to be special, better than, superior to, etc. and that will lead them to oppress others. The problem is us. Or, as the Rolling Stones sang, "I shouted out, who killed the Kennedys? When after all, it was you and me."

I see his wife is saying he was completely non-religious and used to beat her up, was employed by G4S as a security guard and had guns because of that, was know to the FBI but they still let him be a security guard.   You couldn't make it up!

Raggamuffin wrote:I haven't gone into this very much yet, but one man managed to kill 50 people with a gun? That's surely got to be some kind of record.

That's why I started a new thread - to keep questions in a certain section.
There's a lot about this that doesn't make sense

Original Quill wrote:

HoratioTarr wrote:

Radical Islam tends to glorify the hatred and intolerance of others, creating a kind of twisted glamour that these idiots take for real.    No doubt he had fantasies about being a 'someone' like those idiots who pretend they're SAS.

That's what all religion does.  Evangelical Christians are the same.  Evangelical Christian George W. Bush gratuitously made war on Iraq, and it turned out to be our longest, most costly war ever.  

Imagine those southern redneck evangelicals in Georgia and North Carolina whooping it up over the baby killing by F-18s on nightly news.  And don't the British and Americans have fantasies about being 'someone'?  It's like an optical illusion: we see it clearly when it's on the other side; it's not so clear when it's us.

Notes: Frankly, the pundits are beginning to question this guy's jihadist quotient, anyway.  The FBI interviewed him three times, mostly because of his father, and they determined he was harmless.  On the phone call with hostage negotiators he at one time said, 'I support ISIS' and mentioned that the US should stop bombing over there.  Well I think they should stop the bombing, and I'm a Presbyterian elder.  Those bombs are damn expensive, and I don't want my tax dollar going to waste when we could be spending it on a national healthcare program.

And for every 'red-necked-knuckle-dragging-wife-beater' to suddenly become a TOP 10 FBI 'possible terrorist watch list', due to their:
(a) anti GLBT feelings
(b) wife abusing/animal abusing/child abusing methods
(c) religious fanatical way of thinking
(d) anti government rants
(e) I hate black people - especially our POTUS
Gee, what did I miss; but you get the rational --- nut jobs like this will be self-anointed to want their own day of GLORY - by whatever means possible. 
And if the FBI tracked everyone of them ...well, hells-bells you'd have a huge number of good-ole southern boys & their pappies on that 'Wanna-Be A Terrorist List'

Certainly, ISIL is going to grab onto this 'HUGE' media/record braking event and claim proprietary rights to it --- even if they didn't know the dude from Adam; now they've made a check mark for their 'Jihad' numbers while getting their asses kicked - BADLY, in Iraq!

Is there any evidence that this was religiously motivated? I see that some people are dragging religion into it.

Raggamuffin wrote:Is there any evidence that this was religiously motivated? I see that some people are dragging religion into it.

He did call 911 before the shooting and declare his allegiance to the Islamic State.

Ben_Reilly wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:Is there any evidence that this was religiously motivated? I see that some people are dragging religion into it.

He did call 911 before the shooting and declare his allegiance to the Islamic State.

OK, thank you. I'll leave it for now because I don't have time to go into it fully right now. I will be checking all the facts at some point though, so I'll post about it then.

Raggamuffin wrote:Is there any evidence that this was religiously motivated? I see that some people are dragging religion into it.

Frankly --- I'll lean in on the side of the people closest to him; his family - his X-wife ...this nut job with anger control issues was looking for a reason and a support system to kill some LGBT humans and there are plenty of vile/vitriolic sights world wide that anyone is allowed to become a 'hate monger member of' ...
That's my 2¢ worth

Ben_Reilly wrote:If religion was banned, people would reinvent it -- just like if drugs were eradicated, people would recreate them.

Religion tells you who you are, who the enemy is, that you're good, that you're safe, that the most powerful being imaginable loves you. People are never going to stop wanting to feel things like that.

As long as there are people, there will be people who feel the need to be special, better than, superior to, etc. and that will lead them to oppress others. The problem is us. Or, as the Rolling Stones sang, "I shouted out, who killed the Kennedys? When after all, it was you and me."

Again you simply learnt nothing from my points explaing what is wrong yesterday with religion which was once as much as a problem with Christianity. The fear is the loss of control of islam itself in countries and because of bullshit naratives and lefty idiots who make idotic defensive arguments based around colonialism and the Iraq conflict play into the hands of the extremists. Their job of recruiting is made that much easier by the left who simply have not got an utter clue about religion and how its engineered to control through fear, as thew Abrahamic faiths are.
This is not about banning anything but people rightly standing up from both the Muslim Community and Non-Muslim community challeging this falseified lies spread about he West, Jews etc. It is this naratuve of hate that is going unchecked and being backed inadvertanly by some of the regressive left when they try to justiify acts by the terrorists based off the Iraq war etc.

When are you going to fucking wake up and stop being so blind on this matter?

Raggamuffin wrote:Is there any evidence that this was religiously motivated? I see that some people are dragging religion into it.

Frankly, right now I'm of the opinion that his religion did not play an important part in his motivation. Right now I believe this is more like the Sandy Hook incident, or the Arizona congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords shooting: simply a deranged mind.

His ex-wife says he was disturbed. as do people how knew him, and the FBI had dismissed him as a jihadist threat. I think his reference to bombing and ISIL was a throw-out line, perhaps in response to the FBI's question, What do you want? Like, lessee...I want world peace, universal sports on TV...and, yeah, some glazed french doughnuts with sprinkles on them.

I don't think this guy knew what he wanted.

4EVER2 wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:Is there any evidence that this was religiously motivated? I see that some people are dragging religion into it.

Frankly --- I'll lean in on the side of the people closest to him; his family - his X-wife ...this nut job with anger control issues was looking for a reason and a support system to kill some LGBT humans and there are plenty of vile/vitriolic sights world wide that anyone is allowed to become a 'hate monger member of' ...
That's my 2¢ worth

I agree with you here....a nutter looking for a cause to support his twisted way of looking at the world.

RIP all the innocents caught up in this atrocity.

Original Quill wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:Is there any evidence that this was religiously motivated? I see that some people are dragging religion into it.

Frankly, right now I'm of the opinion that his religion did not play an important part in his motivation.  Right now I believe this is more like the Sandy Hook incident, or the Arizona congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords shooting: simply a deranged mind.

His ex-wife says he was disturbed. as do people how knew him, and the FBI had dismissed him as a jihadist threat.  I think his reference to bombing and ISIL was a throw-out line, perhaps in response to the FBI's question, What do you want?  Like, lessee...I want world peace, universal sports on TV...and, yeah, some glazed french doughnuts with sprinkles on them.

I don't think this guy knew what he wanted.

Really and where do you think such anti-homosexuals views stem from?
In the most part they stem from religion, espcially in the younger generation who are religious.
As you will be hard pressed to meet someone homophobic under 25 who is non-religious.
That is simple a fact and why its most dfeinately becaue of religious views and upbringing either in Mosques, schools or by the family to sow such a deep hatred of homosexuals. Of which such acts are deemed so severe in Islam, in some Islamic countries it carries the death penalty.
Again the left are so bloody cluless when it fails to understand how and why a child in its first years from ages 1-5 is the real point of learning within a child.
I dont think you have an understanding of psychology based off a religious upbringing.
I once was anti-homosexual when i grew up believing in the bible as a catholic, as a teen though I started to question this when a friend came out gay, who was kicked out by his parents. Its a deep seated religious hate you will mainly find that is where homophobia stems from

Why is it everytime there is an Islamic extremist attack you can depend on the following views made as if in defence of islam

The attacker had mental health problems.
People who know him state this, even though there is no record of mental health problems, just hate itself.
The parents or family memebers state its not because of religion but homophobia, which is odd when the two are emphatically linked with the abrahamic faiths.
Has else did he come to learn such hatred of homosexuals if not for religious views, which in Islam, its a sin.
I mean its like clockwork, that every time a terrorist is Muslims, he has suddenlly developed a mental health problem.
I think people should stop being diverted from what actually happened, by people one his ex, who no longer lives with him and his parents who did every thing to defend their religion again more than condemning their son.

That speaks volumes

Paul Ettinger wrote:Why is it everytime there is an Islamic extremist attack you can depend on the following views made as if in defence of islam

The attacker had mental health problems.
People who know him state this, even though there is no record of mental health problems, just hate itself.
The parents or family memebers state its not because of religion but homophobia, which is odd when the two are emphatically linked with the abrahamic faiths.
Has else did he come to learn such hatred of homosexuals if not for religious views, which in Islam, its a sin.
I mean its like clockwork, that every time a terrorist is Muslims, he has suddenlly developed a mental health problem.
I think people should stop being diverted from what actually happened, by people one his ex, who no longer lives with him and his parents who did every thing to defend their religion again more than condemning their son.

That speaks volumes

Don't you know that there are non-religious homophobes?

didge wrote:Really and where do you think such anti-homosexuals views stem from?

Where do any homophobic or racist thoughts come from?  You are influenced by your family and those around you.  Cultural factors, significant incidents, family, friends and associates.  

Look, you're preaching to the choir on this one: I've been saying for years that racism, gun-loving, evangelical, anti-government, white supremacy, homophobic leanings, etc., are in the air you breathe down south.  That is the culture of the region.

Paul Ettinger wrote:

Ben_Reilly wrote:If religion was banned, people would reinvent it -- just like if drugs were eradicated, people would recreate them.

Religion tells you who you are, who the enemy is, that you're good, that you're safe, that the most powerful being imaginable loves you. People are never going to stop wanting to feel things like that.

As long as there are people, there will be people who feel the need to be special, better than, superior to, etc. and that will lead them to oppress others. The problem is us. Or, as the Rolling Stones sang, "I shouted out, who killed the Kennedys? When after all, it was you and me."

Again you simply learnt nothing from my points explaing what is wrong yesterday with religion which was once as much as a problem with Christianity. The fear is the loss of control of islam itself in countries and because of bullshit naratives and lefty idiots who make idotic defensive arguments based around colonialism and the Iraq conflict play into the hands of the extremists. Their job of recruiting is made that much easier by the left who simply have not got an utter clue about religion and how its engineered to control through fear, as thew Abrahamic faiths are.
This is not about banning anything but people rightly standing up from both the Muslim Community and Non-Muslim community challeging this falseified lies spread about he West, Jews etc. It is this naratuve of hate that is going unchecked and being backed inadvertanly by some of the regressive left when they try to justiify acts by the terrorists based off the Iraq war etc.

When are you going to fucking wake up and stop being so blind on this matter?

When are you going to grow up and realize the world's a lot more complicated than the plot of a kid's comic book?

Original Quill wrote:

didge wrote:Really and where do you think such anti-homosexuals views stem from?

Where do any homophobic or racist thoughts come from?  You are influenced by your family and those around you.  Cultural factors, significant incidents, family, friends and associates.  

Look, you're preaching to the choir on this one: I've been saying for years that racism, gun-loving, evangelical, anti-government, white supremacy, homophobic feelings, etc., are in the air you breathe down south.  That is the culture of the region.

Gibberish
This has nothing to do with racism.
For fuck sake.
Homophobia has been around for centuries and the biggest enemy of homosexuality has been religious, not any far right bullshit you want to divert this thread with
Get that it your thick head

Ben_Reilly wrote:

Paul Ettinger wrote:


Again you simply learnt nothing from my points explaing what is wrong yesterday with religion which was once as much as a problem with Christianity. The fear is the loss of control of islam itself in countries and because of bullshit naratives and lefty idiots who make idotic defensive arguments based around colonialism and the Iraq conflict play into the hands of the extremists. Their job of recruiting is made that much easier by the left who simply have not got an utter clue about religion and how its engineered to control through fear, as thew Abrahamic faiths are.
This is not about banning anything but people rightly standing up from both the Muslim Community and Non-Muslim community challeging this falseified lies spread about he West, Jews etc. It is this naratuve of hate that is going unchecked and being backed inadvertanly by some of the regressive left when they try to justiify acts by the terrorists based off the Iraq war etc.

When are you going to fucking wake up and stop being so blind on this matter?

When are you going to grow up and realize the world's a lot more complicated than the plot of a kid's comic book?

I have grown up, so do not patronize me you pathetic little prick
Again you make every excuse under the sun and continue to bury your head in the sand
You simply are an idiot on this topic and will continue to do so until it effects you.
Again you simply cannot respond to myu points so we see the left motto played

Divert, deflect and cover up

Let me know when you open your eyes, because its plain you do not need to grow up, you are just as blind as a bat

Paul Ettinger wrote:Why is it everytime there is an Islamic extremist attack you can depend on the following views made as if in defence of islam

The attacker had mental health problems.
People who know him state this, even though there is no record of mental health problems, just hate itself.
The parents or family memebers state its not because of religion but homophobia, which is odd when the two are emphatically linked with the abrahamic faiths.
Has else did he come to learn such hatred of homosexuals if not for religious views, which in Islam, its a sin.
I mean its like clockwork, that every time a terrorist is Muslims, he has suddenlly developed a mental health problem.
I think people should stop being diverted from what actually happened, by people one his ex, who no longer lives with him and his parents who did every thing to defend their religion again more than condemning their son.

That speaks volumes

You have a point too.
I call people who abuse their wives and kids, who hate indiscriminately, who rant and rave, and who treat other people like dirt 'nutters'....it's just a word to lump awful people together, it doesn't mean they have genuine mental illness.

I heard this mans dad talking....he either had no idea of how his son had matured ..many parents don't, or he is in complete denial of any connection of his hatred and his faith.

Paul Ettinger wrote:

Original Quill wrote:

Where do any homophobic or racist thoughts come from?  You are influenced by your family and those around you.  Cultural factors, significant incidents, family, friends and associates.  

Look, you're preaching to the choir on this one: I've been saying for years that racism, gun-loving, evangelical, anti-government, white supremacy, homophobic feelings, etc., are in the air you breathe down south.  That is the culture of the region.

Gibberish
This has nothing to do with racism.
For fuck sake.
Homophobia has been around for centuries and the biggest enemy of homosexuality has been religious, not any far right bullshit you want to divert this thread with
Get that it your thick head

Silly fool!  You don't think prejudice against homosexuals is the same as prejudice against race?    These are not just idle incidents, nor are they weedend thoughts or inspirations.  They are cultural themes.  As such they are in a cultural ideology.

Where do you get such ideas?

Syl wrote:

Paul Ettinger wrote:Why is it everytime there is an Islamic extremist attack you can depend on the following views made as if in defence of islam

The attacker had mental health problems.
People who know him state this, even though there is no record of mental health problems, just hate itself.
The parents or family memebers state its not because of religion but homophobia, which is odd when the two are emphatically linked with the abrahamic faiths.
Has else did he come to learn such hatred of homosexuals if not for religious views, which in Islam, its a sin.
I mean its like clockwork, that every time a terrorist is Muslims, he has suddenlly developed a mental health problem.
I think people should stop being diverted from what actually happened, by people one his ex, who no longer lives with him and his parents who did every thing to defend their religion again more than condemning their son.

That speaks volumes

You have a point too.
I call people who abuse their wives and kids, who hate  indiscriminately, who rant and rave, and who treat other people like dirt 'nutters'....it's just a word to lump awful people together, it doesn't mean they have genuine mental illness.

I heard this mans dad talking....he either  had no idea of how his son had matured ..many parents don't, or he is in complete denial of any connection of his hatred and his faith.

Its the bog standard excuse used to make out its not connected to religion
I can show so many examples of this claimed and even in court made by lawyers in defense of suspected terrorists.
Its unbelieveable.
Like i say, the moment that dad opened with "It has nothing to do with religion" was the gimme for me, as why open with that, when no point had ben made on religion at that point and yet he saught to defend that over condemning his son first.

Syl wrote:

4EVER2 wrote:Frankly --- I'll lean in on the side of the people closest to him; his family - his X-wife ...this nut job with anger control issues was looking for a reason and a support system to kill some LGBT humans and there are plenty of vile/vitriolic sights world wide that anyone is allowed to become a 'hate monger member of' ...
That's my 2¢ worth

I agree with you here....a nutter looking for a cause to support his twisted way of looking at the world.

RIP all the innocents caught up in this atrocity.

And for those 'ranting on about IT'S THE RELIGION' {not you Syl} but our well known consistent ranter   this is clipped from Sassy's very long - yet highly informative link on the other thread >

But each time, the F.B.I. found no solid evidence that Mr. Mateen had any real connection to terrorism or had broken any laws.
Mr. Mateen, who lived in Fort Pierce, Fla., was able to continue working as a security guard with the security firm G4S, where he had worked since 2007, and he was able to buy guns. The federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives said Mr. Mateen had legally bought a long gun and a pistol in the past week or two, though it was not clear whether those were the weapons used in the assault, which officials described as a handgun and an AR-15 type of assault rifle.
A former co-worker, Daniel Gilroy, said Mr. Mateen had talked often about killing people and had voiced hatred of gays, blacks, women and Jews.

His co-worker didn't quantify his - nor did his father - he didn't have any: religious rants - his Islamic preaching's - his Jihad creed - he explained this vile/cretins hatred of 'gays, blacks, women and Jews' ...twisting any & every hate crime into a box of your own specific design - Didgey-dooer isn't moving you into the adult discussion table but putting you back into the 'ignore ZONE'!

Eddie ...for the sake of these ongoing discussion; could you not MERGE these two topics together - PLEASE?

Original Quill wrote:

Paul Ettinger wrote:


Gibberish
This has nothing to do with racism.
For fuck sake.
Homophobia has been around for centuries and the biggest enemy of homosexuality has been religious, not any far right bullshit you want to divert this thread with
Get that it your thick head

Silly fool!  You don't think prejudice against homosexuals is the same as prejudice against race?    These are not just idle incidents, nor are they weedend thoughts or inspirations.  They are cultural themes.  As such they are in a cultural ideology.

Where do you get such ideas?

Its a completely different prejudice, one that can form from religion, of people are put off at the thought of such sex.
It derives from a different form of prejudice

Only a regressive twat would try and introduce racism here to divert

I just think people who hate will latch onto something that they believe will justify their hatred.
If a religion preaches homosexuality is wrong....that's a convenient thing to latch on to.
If an organisation preaches integration is wrong...a hater will latch onto that.

People who hate will always find reasons somewhere.

4EVER2 wrote:

Syl wrote:
I agree with you here....a nutter looking for a cause to support his twisted way of looking at the world.

RIP all the innocents caught up in this atrocity.

And for those 'ranting on about IT'S THE RELIGION' {not you Syl} but our well known consistent ranter   this is clipped from Sassy's very long - yet highly informative link on the other thread >

But each time, the F.B.I. found no solid evidence that Mr. Mateen had any real connection to terrorism or had broken any laws.
Mr. Mateen, who lived in Fort Pierce, Fla., was able to continue working as a security guard with the security firm G4S, where he had worked since 2007, and he was able to buy guns. The federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives said Mr. Mateen had legally bought a long gun and a pistol in the past week or two, though it was not clear whether those were the weapons used in the assault, which officials described as a handgun and an AR-15 type of assault rifle.
A former co-worker, Daniel Gilroy, said Mr. Mateen had talked often about killing people and had voiced hatred of gays, blacks, women and Jews.

His co-worker didn't quantify his - nor did his father - he didn't have any: religious rants - his Islamic preaching's - his Jihad creed - he explained this vile/cretins hatred of 'gays, blacks, women and Jews' ...twisting any & every hate crime into a box of your own specific design - Didgey-dooer isn't moving you into the adult discussion table but putting you back into the 'ignore ZONE'!

Eddie ...for the sake of these ongoing discussion; could you not MERGE these two topics together - PLEASE?

Wow so hearsy is now the bases for defending the religious aspect where of 4 apsects listed above in all Islam treated blacks as inferior and slaves, Jews are considered Monkeys and inferior, islam teaches homosexuality is wrong and treats women as inferior

So that is backing a religious apsect

Thanks

Interesting...the interview with the Imam of his local Florida mosque revealed that Mateen's family origin was Northern Afghanistan, and they were anti-Taliban.

Whatever else that may imply, it suggests that radical Islam was not his flavor.

Syl wrote:I just think people who hate will latch onto something that they believe will justify their hatred.
If a religion preaches homosexuality is wrong....that's a convenient thing to latch on to.
If an organisation preaches integration is wrong...a hater will latch onto that.

People who hate will always find reasons somewhere.

You have a point on hate and it is a narative of hate thta is constantly being ignored spread around Muslims throughout the world, that the west is out to destroy Islam. What you are seeing is the very esseence and life of Muslims then perceived to be under attack, by such rhetoric.
Its fear again being applied as we see daily in regards to immigration, the EU, staying in the EU ect, but this is on a massive scale.

didge wrote:Wow so hearsy is now the bases for defending the religious aspect where of 4 apsects listed above in all Islam treated blacks as inferior and slaves, Jews are considered Monkeys and inferior, islam teaches homosexuality is wrong and treats women as inferior

Keerist, you foul-mouth imbecile. Here you are pulling religion out of the sky, and you criticize 4Eva for suggesting that hatred of 'gays, blacks, women and Jews' might have played a part, too. There's evidence to support her claims. You've got nothing.

No one said you were the brightest bulb, I guess.

Original Quill wrote:

didge wrote:Wow so hearsy is now the bases for defending the religious aspect where of 4 apsects listed above in all Islam treated blacks as inferior and slaves, Jews are considered Monkeys and inferior, islam teaches homosexuality is wrong and treats women as inferior

Keerist, you foul-mouth imbecile.  Here you are pulling religion out of the sky, and you criticize 4Eva for suggesting that  hatred of 'gays, blacks, women and Jews' might have played a part, too.  There's evidence to support her claims.  You've got nothing.

No one said you were the brightest bulb, I guess.

There is plenty of evidence to support my claims.
He stated supporting ISIS
Words from the horses mouth itself
ISIS throws homosexuals from roof tops
Now unless you have anything intelligent to add, which will be a first, i suggest you stop with the bullshit instead of hearsay views off imans, parents, or ex-wives, as we need people who knew him close enough to understand his alligence to ISIS, who have also confirmed such an attack was by them

Pay close attention to the boy with the weird eyebrows who appears around the four-minute mark.

Ben_Reilly wrote:Pay close attention to the boy with the weird eyebrows who appears around the four-minute mark.

The Left motto


Divert, deflect and cover up

Why Not Both?

Although potentially a good writer/commentator, Owen Jones strikes me as wanting to believe in the white/black hat theories of political power rather than actually believing that tosh. Plainly he was shaken by the act of soul-destroying evil which unfolded at Orlando. Like the victims of the Bataclan, those here are disproportionately young. Whilst they were targeted because they were gay, such murderous sentiments is a sine qua non of jihadism. Likewise, the Ozar Hatorah school and Hypercacher shootings were impromptu Jew-hunts but arising from hard-wired antisemitism.
Update: And here it is:

If a terrorist with a track record of expressing hatred of and disgust at Jewish people had walked into a synagogue and murdered 50 Jewish people, we would rightly describe it as both terrorism and an antisemitic attack. If a Jewish guest on television had tried to describe it as such, it would be disgraceful if they were not only contradicted, but shouted them down as they did so. But this is what happened on Sky News with a gay man talking about the mass murder of LGBT people.

Such goysplaining is well established, Owen.

No Didge, it's making a point -- thought you would recognize that. If you watch that boy throughout the video, he's clearly a budding homophobe, yet too young to have been properly indoctrinated into any belief system.

Ben_Reilly wrote:No Didge, it's making a point -- thought you would recognize that. If you watch that boy throughout the video, he's clearly a budding homophobe, yet too young to have been properly indoctrinated into any belief system.

Really and what faith is he?
You do not think they can be indoctrinated into a faith that young?
How naive
Homophobia is a belief system

Paul Ettinger wrote:

Ben_Reilly wrote:No Didge, it's making a point -- thought you would recognize that. If you watch that boy throughout the video, he's clearly a budding homophobe, yet too young to have been properly indoctrinated into any belief system.

Really and what faith is he?
You do not think they can be indoctrinated into a faith that young?
How naive
Homophobia is a belief system

Did you understand Catholicism at 5 or 6 years old?

Ben_Reilly wrote:

Paul Ettinger wrote:


Really and what faith is he?
You do not think they can be indoctrinated into a faith that young?
How naive
Homophobia is a belief system

Did you understand Catholicism at 5 or 6 years old?

Very much so

Anyway its besides the point Ben as you contradicted yourself
You said he is a budding homophobe and then state in complete conflict that he is not old enough to have been indoctrinated into a belief system.
But he was, as homphobia is a belief system of hate

4EVER2 wrote:

Syl wrote:

4EVER2 wrote:Frankly --- I'll lean in on the side of the people closest to him; his family - his X-wife ...this nut job with anger control issues was looking for a reason and a support system to kill some LGBT humans and there are plenty of vile/vitriolic sights world wide that anyone is allowed to become a 'hate monger member of' ...
That's my 2¢ worth

I agree with you here....a nutter looking for a cause to support his twisted way of looking at the world.

RIP all the innocents caught up in this atrocity.

And for those 'ranting on about IT'S THE RELIGION' {not you Syl} but our well known consistent ranter   this is clipped from Sassy's very long - yet highly informative link on the other thread >

But each time, the F.B.I. found no solid evidence that Mr. Mateen had any real connection to terrorism or had broken any laws.
Mr. Mateen, who lived in Fort Pierce, Fla., was able to continue working as a security guard with the security firm G4S, where he had worked since 2007, and he was able to buy guns. The federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives said Mr. Mateen had legally bought a long gun and a pistol in the past week or two, though it was not clear whether those were the weapons used in the assault, which officials described as a handgun and an AR-15 type of assault rifle.
A former co-worker, Daniel Gilroy, said Mr. Mateen had talked often about killing people and had voiced hatred of gays, blacks, women and Jews.

His co-worker didn't quantify his - nor did his father - he didn't have any: religious rants - his Islamic preaching's - his Jihad creed - he explained this vile/cretins hatred of 'gays, blacks, women and Jews' ...twisting any & every hate crime into a box of your own specific design - Didgey-dooer isn't moving you into the adult discussion table but putting you back into the 'ignore ZONE'!

Eddie ...for the sake of these ongoing discussion; could you not MERGE these two topics together - PLEASE?

sounds a tyical islamist attitude to me....

Its well known arab and near asian (pakistan etc) Muslims hate black folk
they certainly hate all but the most subserviant women
and I wouldnt class them as paticularly tolerant of jews either.....

didge wrote:There is plenty of evidence to support my claims.
He stated supporting ISIS
Words from the horses mouth itself
ISIS throws homosexuals from roof tops

You ignorant trash...ISIL is a political and military entity. They use their religious affiliation as a recruitment tool.

Mateen's reference to ISIL was in reference to a demand that the US stop bombing ISIL. Not a very religious theme, eh? Doesn't fit in any hymn that I know of.

Victor wrote:sounds a tyical islamist attitude to me....

Its well known arab and near asian (pakistan etc) Muslims hate black folk
they certainly hate all but the most subserviant women
and I wouldnt class them as paticularly tolerant of jews either.....

Really? Now to me it sounds American South...with a definite Evangelical Christian petina to it.

Ben_Reilly wrote:No Didge, it's making a point -- thought you would recognize that. If you watch that boy throughout the video, he's clearly a budding homophobe, yet too young to have been properly indoctrinated into any belief system.

A child that age believes what his parents tell him...look to them and you will see why he holds the views he does.

Original Quill wrote:

didge wrote:There is plenty of evidence to support my claims.
He stated supporting ISIS
Words from the horses mouth itself
ISIS throws homosexuals from roof tops

You ignorant trash...ISIL is a political and military entity.  They use their religious affiliation as a recruitment tool.

Mateen's reference to ISIL was in reference to a demand that the US stop bombing ISIL.  Not a very religious theme, eh?  Doesn't fit in any hymn that I know of.

They are a religious extremist, adhere to a literal view of the quran and hadiths, that uses islamic doctrine espcially historcal doctrines of Muhammad
Is their hadiths and in his biography of Muhammad giving sex slaves to his warriors?
Yes
Is there accounts of him executing women?
Yes
Executing homosexuals?
Yes
Executing Jews?
Yes
Having and ensdorsing slavery?
Yes

Is there accouns of his berating women for not pleasing their husbands?
yes

It helps if you were not such an ignorant dumb fuck, you might then not be such a twat

Paul Ettinger wrote:

Original Quill wrote:

You ignorant trash...ISIL is a political and military entity.  They use their religious affiliation as a recruitment tool.

Mateen's reference to ISIL was in reference to a demand that the US stop bombing ISIL.  Not a very religious theme, eh?  Doesn't fit in any hymn that I know of.

They are a religious extremist, adhere to a literal view of the quran and hadiths, that uses islamic doctrine espcially historcal doctrines of Muhammad

Most experts today are of the opinion that ISIL is an opportunist organization, which uses religion as one of it's propaganda tools...of which there are many.  More than religious extremism, they appear to be culturally anti-west.

didge wrote:Is their hadiths and in his biography of Muhammad giving sex slaves to his warriors?
Yes
Is there accounts of him executing women?
Yes
Executing homosexuals?
Yes
Executing Jews?
Yes
Having and ensdorsing slavery?
Yes

Is there accouns of his berating women for not pleasing their husbands?
yes

Soooo...just like the southerner in the US?  Ideologies are gestalts (look it up non compos mentis), some of which are religions, some of which are politics, some of which are economics...any of which can fuel an enraged attack like this.  

We saw something of the same thing in Charleston, when Dylann Roof shot and killed nine people in Emanuel African Methodist Episcopal Church nearly a year ago, believing that Black men were having sex with white women--classic racist ideology.  

It is ideology, of which religion is only an instance.

Most experts agree that ISIS is the most literal believers of the Quran ovet that of all other Muslims, which again is based off so called historical accounts. Many Muslims have interepretations of the Quran and on arabic words themselves, showing you have not got a clue what you are talking about
Also to say something is not islamic based off a myth, when thew vast majority of Muslims deify hadiths to an equal level as the quran, showing there is no true one way of what is islam. As nobody is alive today who live then and no way to verify the accounts.
This is why you are not very bright.
The fact is ISIS does practice a form of Islam, in a literal sense and tries to emulate acts by Muhammad from the unveifyed sources.

Again i could not a flying fuck with your attempts to divert this onto racism, get that fucking stupidity out of your head, its not going to buy

Paul Ettinger wrote:Most experts agree that ISIS is the most literal believers of the Quran ovet that of all other Muslims, which again is based off so called historical accounts. Many Muslims have interepretations of the Quran and on arabic words themselves, showing you have not got a clue what you are talking about
Also to say something is not islamic based off a myth, when thew vast majority of Muslims deify hadiths to an equal level as the quran, showing there is no true one way of what is islam. As nobody is alive today who live then and no way to verify the accounts.
This is why you are not very bright.
The fact is ISIS does practice Islam, in a literal sense and tries to emulate acts by Muhammad.

Again i could not a flying fuck with your attempts to divert this onto racism, get that fucking stupidity out of your head, its not going to buy

I think you are fabricating your ideas as you go along.  You have this one premise--that everything is hues of religion--which we saw germinating in you about a year-and-a-half ago, during the Egyptian military takeover.  Today, you have since expanded your thesis to say, all evil derives from religion---most particularly, Islam.  After all, Islamists are your nemesis in your crusade on behalf of Israel.

Islam is merely an example of a religion.  Anyone can hold an opinion.  But to hold that religion is the only ideology that motivates people is pure ignorance, and reflects a lost attempt at theory.  It's like the simplistic theory of Federalist No. 10, that the only problem in politics is that of 'faction'...even the federalists went to a higher genus of ideology that do you.

Religion is only one ideology that motivates people.  Politics.  Patriotism.  Nationalism.  Many, many other ideologies motivate people.

Stick to what you're good at.  Collect blocks.