Halal - Kosher Slaughter

by Major Thu Jan 14, 2016 9:43 pm

Do you agree that on our UK Island we should allow halal, kosher slaughter of animals?

Do you agree it should be sold in our stores NOT labelled as halal or kosher?

Do you agree it should be fed to people anywhere on our island without their prior knowledge of it being halal or kosher slaughter?

I will comment later.

by Tommy Monk Thu Jan 14, 2016 10:52 pm

Answers to questions 2 & 3 first... no it should not be sold without clear labelling... and no it should not be surreptitiously served to anyone... nor should it be used by any caterers or food outlets to the general public, be it restaurants, fast food, supermarket ready meals or sandwiches etc, or school/hospital/prison etc or any other similar provision provider of general population... it should only be available to be used at certain designated outlets, clearly identified as being used, and who are catering for those with a genuine claim of requirement for it...

Which brings me to answer the first question...

If both were banned outright here then both jews and Muslims are permitted to eat whatever other food is available for them to survive!!!

So none of them really have to have it at all!!!

by veya_victaous Thu Jan 14, 2016 11:41 pm

I agree with tommy on the first point
although if you want to make money exporting meat products you will need to

2 and 3 is dumb
just label it already
if peoepl are dumb enough to think a imaginary sky giant's blessing effects the food then Capitialsim say to rob them blind.

by Victorismyhero Thu Jan 14, 2016 11:44 pm

It should be labeled as such, as veya says....

then it should be taxed at 1000% Smile

by Tommy Monk Thu Jan 14, 2016 11:52 pm

Make money point... not really... refuse to provide... either they will buy it still or if they buy elsewhere then you then sell to the other ones who are losing their supply to being bought by your former buyers... all pushing up prices for all!!!

And If your product is that much superior as you claim... easy to sell!

by veya_victaous Fri Jan 15, 2016 12:10 am

Lord Foul wrote:It should be labeled as such, as veya says....

then it should be taxed at 1000%

why the tax?

seems a bit pointless.

by Victorismyhero Fri Jan 15, 2016 12:13 am

it would pay for their cousins that so desire to come here and live on benefits Twisted Evil

by veya_victaous Fri Jan 15, 2016 12:15 am

Tommy Monk wrote:Make money point... not really... refuse to provide... either they will buy it still or if they buy elsewhere then you then sell to the other ones who are losing their supply to being bought by your former buyers... all pushing up prices for all!!!

And If your product is that much superior as you claim... easy to sell!

lol ok you need to go look at world markets
agricultural is still a buyers market not a sellers.

it isn't a case of refuse it provide..
ok fine have piles of rotting meat that you cant sell confused

our product is the same but half the price (even after shipping costs) that is why you put a 100% tariff on it so your farmers can stay in business.
If it were are easy as you suggest don't you think we'd refuse to supply to you until you remove the tarriff?

by Guest Fri Jan 15, 2016 12:18 am

Frankly I think you are all bloody hypocrites. We have had kosher food here for hundreds of years, you only started making a fuss when we had more Muslims.

If you think stunning is 'kind' and works you are out of your trees.

Kosher and halal done properly stops the brain working in seconds. It's been shown that animals having been stunned still register pain in their brains, and very often come to, and the number of abbatoirs that have been shown to torture animals is beyond count.

So label by all means, providing you label when abattoirs have been proved to torture the animals.

by veya_victaous Fri Jan 15, 2016 12:20 am

Lord Foul wrote:it would pay for their cousins that so desire to come here and live on benefits

lol Ok thats a good answer but....

you know that almost all chicken is halal?

and isn't the point to allow British Producers to sell British Products to Muslism and Muslism nations
why would you want to make the britsh produced product less compeditive?

If you's were smarter you'd be trying to control what is obviosuly going to be a growing market for Halal products in the EU (since the trade resticitrion make it hard for us to take it) Rolling Eyes

by Guest Fri Jan 15, 2016 12:22 am

Vic, you ever killed a chicken for your dinner, bet you didn't stun it first.

by veya_victaous Fri Jan 15, 2016 12:23 am

@Sassy
you can still stun them for halal, you just got to keep them standing (cant hit the ground) and newer mechanical runs do that.

by the time it 'hits the ground' here it is already skinned, cleaned and prepared for butchering.

by Victorismyhero Fri Jan 15, 2016 12:26 am

sassy wrote:Frankly I think you are all bloody hypocrites. We have had kosher food here for hundreds of years, you only started making a fuss when we had more Muslims.

If you think stunning is 'kind' and works you are out of your trees.

Kosher and halal done properly stops the brain working in seconds.

no proof beyond a biased study done in germany, run by...guess who...a Muslim

It's been shown that animals having been stunned still register pain in their brains,
if your pain center was being monitored whilst you were under anaesthetic, it would be registering pain, the only thing is..IT may be shouting ow ow ow,,,,,but the concious part of your brain, which translates that, is away with the fairies and taking no notice....which is why, very occaisionally folks come rounnd from an operation with a vague shadow "memory" of pain.

so thats nonsense....or rather..irrelevant

and very often come to,

not VERY often but yes it can happen....and should not...tighter regs are needed
and the number of abbatoirs that have been shown to torture animals is beyond count.

not true..but those that have should be shut down and those involved severely dealt with

So label by all means, providing you label when abattoirs have been proved to torture the animals.

by Victorismyhero Fri Jan 15, 2016 12:30 am

sassy wrote:Vic, you ever killed a chicken for your dinner, bet you didn't stun it first.

If you wring its neck properly in the approved manner...you shouldnt need to????

by Guest Fri Jan 15, 2016 12:30 am

veya_victaous wrote:@Sassy
you can still stun them for halal, you just got to keep them standing (cant hit the ground) and newer mechanical runs do that.

by the time it 'hits the ground' here it is already skinned, cleaned and prepared for butchering.

I know a lot of halal abattoirs have agreed to stun because of the pressure put on them. Having seen the scientific evidence, and having my daughter have a catheter put into her carotid artery and left open by mistake, she was unconscious in seconds, I would rather they didn't.

by Guest Fri Jan 15, 2016 12:31 am

Lord Foul wrote:
sassy wrote:Vic, you ever killed a chicken for your dinner, bet you didn't stun it first.

If you wring its neck properly in the approved manner...you shouldnt need to????

You have just make my point for me, because if halal is done properly, you don't need to, the brain drains of blood in seconds and no longer registers anything.

by Victorismyhero Fri Jan 15, 2016 12:34 am

sassy wrote:
Lord Foul wrote:

If you wring its neck properly in the approved manner...you shouldnt need to????

You have just make my point for me, because if halal is done properly, you don't need to, the brain drains of blood in seconds and no longer registers anything.

sorry...I dont. for a number of reasons...to do with evidence from decapitations of humans, beleive that for one minute

by Guest Fri Jan 15, 2016 12:35 am

What evidence?

by Victorismyhero Fri Jan 15, 2016 12:36 am

I'll lok it up for you..its on the web...

but I warn you ...its not for the sqeamish

by Victorismyhero Fri Jan 15, 2016 12:37 am

and not tonite...i want to sleep....

by Guest Fri Jan 15, 2016 12:42 am

When have I ever been squeamish? Get some sleep then, me too.

by Tommy Monk Fri Jan 15, 2016 11:18 am

There is no genuine need for halal or kosher because both Muslims and jews are permitted to eat alternatives when their preference is not available.

by Guest Fri Jan 15, 2016 11:23 am

Stormee wrote:Do you agree that on our UK Island we should allow halal, kosher slaughter of animals?

Do you agree it should be sold in our stores NOT labelled as halal or kosher?

Do you agree it should be fed to people anywhere on our island without their prior knowledge of it being halal or kosher slaughter?

I will comment later.

This Again .......Honestly i couldn`t give any less a shit than i already do

by Guest Fri Jan 15, 2016 11:24 am

It just needs to be labbled, as anyone who claims the practice is wrong and eats meat are hypocrites. If you thinking stunning is humane, then you are wrong, as trying zapping yourself with electrecution and see if it is harmless. At the end of the day if you eat mean, you have no care that an animal has been slaughtered in order to fill your dinner plate and the practice of how animals are kept before slaughter is appalling to say the least. So any argumnents here are based on bigotry and not any due care for the animals, bar say Victor, who actually understand this better than anyone.

by Raggamuffin Fri Jan 15, 2016 11:35 am

I have to say that Didge makes a good point there. I thought the same thing when there was that uproar about horse meat.

It's very important that food is labelled properly, and that there is no attempt to hide ingredients by using numbers or names that people don't understand. For vegetarians there has been a vast improvement in this area. If something is not labelled as being suitable for vegetarians I don't buy it. Sometimes they don't bother to label it in that manner, but as long as it's very clear that the product contains animal, that's OK. For example, a lot of sweets contain gelatine, and that's on the label, so you just have to look for it. If they use E numbers instead, that's duplicitous IMO and those products should be avoided by vegetarians.

by Major Fri Jan 15, 2016 11:46 am

Does anyone know if Tesco sells halal meat without labelling it?

Does anyone know if some of the halal meat sales goes to aid terrorism?

by Guest Fri Jan 15, 2016 12:01 pm

Stormee wrote:Does anyone know if Tesco sells halal meat without labelling it?

Does anyone know if some of the halal meat sales goes to aid terrorism?

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by Guest Fri Jan 15, 2016 2:29 pm

korban dallas wrote:
Stormee wrote:Does anyone know if Tesco sells halal meat without labelling it?

Does anyone know if some of the halal meat sales goes to aid terrorism?
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Now that did make me giggle! cheers

by eddie Fri Jan 15, 2016 2:55 pm

korban dallas wrote:
Stormee wrote:Do you agree that on our UK Island we should allow halal, kosher slaughter of animals?

Do you agree it should be sold in our stores NOT labelled as halal or kosher?

Do you agree it should be fed to people anywhere on our island without their prior knowledge of it being halal or kosher slaughter?

I will comment later.

This Again .......Honestly i couldn`t give any less a shit than i already do

I agree with you KD.
I couldn't care less. Even when I ate meat I didn't care.

by Eilzel Fri Jan 15, 2016 3:05 pm

I think its bizarre that considering how badly animals live in certain industrial and battery farming places that such a fuss is made about the final moments. The objections to halal slaughter have little to do with animal wellfare sadly.

by eddie Fri Jan 15, 2016 3:06 pm

Eilzel wrote:I think its bizarre that considering how badly animals live in certain industrial and battery farming places that such a fuss is made about the final moments. The objections to halal slaughter have little to do with animal wellfare sadly.

Exactement.

by Guest Fri Jan 15, 2016 3:06 pm

Eilzel wrote:I think its bizarre that considering how badly animals live in certain industrial and battery farming places that such a fuss is made about the final moments. The objections to halal slaughter have little to do with animal wellfare sadly.

Absolutely agree.

by Victorismyhero Fri Jan 15, 2016 4:13 pm

Eil is of course correct in his assesment, however the point remains that in fact THAT is a perfectly valid point.

islamisation

or since it has been around as kosher

judeaification

much the same

and yet people seem to miss the point

they come here ...for whatever reason....
even IF invited

then they follow or accept OUR ways....

NOT the otherway round

quite frankly I dont even give a monkeys if an aspect of their culure is "harmless", if its "public" or whatever....
then there should be no place for it

try living a "western life" back in the hell holes they abandon....

by Guest Fri Jan 15, 2016 4:30 pm

Lord Foul wrote:Eil is of course correct in his assesment, however the point remains that in fact THAT is a perfectly valid point.

islamisation

or since it has been around as kosher

judeaification

much the same

and yet people seem to miss the point

they come here ...for whatever reason....
even IF invited

then they follow or accept OUR ways....

NOT the otherway round

quite frankly I dont even give a monkeys if an aspect of their culure is "harmless", if its "public" or whatever....
then there should be no place for it

try living a "western life" back in the hell holes they abandon....

Apart from the fear Muslim part which I do not and think is irrational to be in fear of Muslims or even extremist Muslims, but recognise there is a problem. On a scale of 1 to 10 how accurate do you think this it?

by Victorismyhero Fri Jan 15, 2016 4:44 pm

well if nothing else the point he make of "Muslims living with Muslims...problem" really says it all

they "cant" live with anyone it seems

but I'm not arguing from a "fear" POV, thats just a convenient lefty "get out of jail free" card...developed since "sixhirb" lost its power

IF they want to live "their" culture, then they want to stuff off back where "their " culture exists

NOT make their culture "exist" here....

and...as a note for the idiot upside down antipodean twit.....I dont give a shite what my "ancestors" did 60, 100, or 200 years ago...

that was then, this is now.....

by Tommy Monk Fri Jan 15, 2016 6:59 pm

Animal welfare standards prevent any of the 'battery' style conditions you suggest, in this country...

My point is that both Muslims and jews are permitted to eat alternatives when their preferred choice is not available... so no real requirement at all!!!

by Guest Fri Jan 15, 2016 7:04 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:Animal welfare standards prevent any of the 'battery' style conditions you suggest, in this country...

My point is that both Muslims and jews are permitted to eat alternatives when their preferred choice is not available... so no real requirement at all!!!

Anyone is allowed an alternative as what would really stop a vegitarian if they were starving from eating meat?
How many do you think would forego theier beliefs just in order to survive and from what I understand from what my father went through on Malta in WW2, when you are that hungry, you will eat anything.

So your premise is poor, what you are saying is that you want to say what people can eat and not what they want to eat. Its not up to you or anyone else to decide, its their choice, just like its your choice over what you eat, because nobody is forcing you to eat anything you do not want to.

Hence why we are not a prejudiced nation, we do not restrict people over what they choose to eat.

Hence your argument is moot because you do not impose the same proposal on Vegans or Vegitarians.

by Victorismyhero Fri Jan 15, 2016 7:13 pm

Didge wrote:
Tommy Monk wrote:Animal welfare standards prevent any of the 'battery' style conditions you suggest, in this country...

My point is that both Muslims and jews are permitted to eat alternatives when their preferred choice is not available... so no real requirement at all!!!

Anyone is allowed an alternative as what would really stop a vegitarian if they were starving from eating meat?
How many do you think would forego theier beliefs just in order to survive and from what I understand from what my father went through on Malta in WW2, when you are that hungry, you will eat anything.

So your premise is poor, what you are saying is that you want to say what people can eat and not what they want to eat. Its not up to you or anyone else to decide, its their choice, just like its your choice over what you eat, because nobody is forcing you to eat anything you do not want to.

Hence why we are not a prejudiced nation, we do not restrict people over what they choose to eat.

Hence your argument is moot because you do not impose the same proposal on Vegans or Vegitarians.

thanks for proving a point there didge

which is that, aside from a VERY small minority of medical cases, these "choices", as you put it are nothing but "fads". Now whilst I'm not suggesting that we should have "food poice" banging on folks doors, NEITHER should we pander to them...

there is NO case to be made for anywhere (schools etc) being forced/encouraged whatever to provide veggie meals (except for afore said medical cases), and food outlets rightly should be able to choose whether to bother or not

The SAME applies with halal and kosher.

Lets start, by stopping pretending that this IS anything but "fad".

As Tommy points out the dietry requirements are such that they CAN eat non kosher/non halal IF THERE IS NO OTHER CHOICE.
So why provide that choice?
what obligation is upon us to do so....none

by Guest Fri Jan 15, 2016 7:16 pm

But again you are forcing people to eat something they do not want to eat.
I mean I am sure there are some things you do not want to eat, so is anybody forcing you to eat this and not providing an alternatve?

No, hence your reasoning is utterly poor, its you saying what people can or cannot eat. Even a doctor can advise what to eat, they cannot force you to eat what you do not want to, they will just tell them if or not it is healthy or damaging.

This is not pandering at all, are you saying to me, if you had guests in your house and some were vegitarian, you would not offer them an alternative to a meat dish?

Seriously, is that what you are saying?

Game set and match mate

by Victorismyhero Fri Jan 15, 2016 7:25 pm

I dont have veggie friends

I avoid em like the plague

they are almost universally disturbed (look at eddie and her mushroom fixation Razz

)

and no I'm NOT forcing anyone to eat anything

the veggie can bring a packed lunch of his/her own choosing

there are alternatives that are "halal or kosher by default that the religious idiot can eat

if I went to a Muslims house. would he provide me (were I to be bothered) with a non halal alternative...pfffft....

no didge you are looking at it "upside down", the mistake most panderers make

THEY are the "odd balls" its not "our" place to "oblige them"

I'm beginning to think its about time we DID have a meteor strike or such like...

then we will be rid of em, becasue either they will be proven to be hypocrits, or stick to their priciples and starve...

either way

by Raggamuffin Fri Jan 15, 2016 7:27 pm

Food outlets would lose business if they didn't have veggie alternatives. Not only vegetarians would avoid them, but if they were going out with friends, the whole lot would avoid them too.

by Victorismyhero Fri Jan 15, 2016 7:29 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:Food outlets would lose business if they didn't have veggie alternatives. Not only vegetarians would avoid them, but if they were going out with friends, the whole lot would avoid them too.

as I said ragga, it would be up to the food outlet what it did thats a commercial decision

but NOWHERE should be "obliged" to so provide.....

by Raggamuffin Fri Jan 15, 2016 7:32 pm

Lord Foul wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:Food outlets would lose business if they didn't have veggie alternatives. Not only vegetarians would avoid them, but if they were going out with friends, the whole lot would avoid them too.

as I said ragga, it would be up to the food outlet what it did thats a commercial decision

but NOWHERE should be "obliged" to so provide.....

They're not, are they?

In schools they have a duty to provide a child with proper food though, so if they didn't eat meat, they'd have to provide something else.

by Guest Fri Jan 15, 2016 7:33 pm

Okay lets turn this more on its head

How about hypothetically, its your own children say, who decide they want to be vegitarian. Now are you going to refuse to prepare them a vegetarian meal each day?

So no Victor, I am not looking at anything upside down, but from a position of what we all learn growing up called allowing people to choose for themselves, not what we say they should do. That is why we are leaps and bounds ahead of many nations, we do not force our views onto others but reason our views, but allow people to decide for themselves
Nobody has forced you to make your decisions in life, you made them yourself, just as we all do, whether we regret them or admire them

We are talking about food here and not some nitty picky child who turns their nose up at just about every dinner, but about people having a reason behind what they choose to eat and fail to see why anyone cannot not only accomadate that, but respect that.

As after all, is it that much of a big deal?

No

by Victorismyhero Fri Jan 15, 2016 7:41 pm

actually yes didge it is

it is the imposition of "their" culture on ours

give in to "halal and the next is "sharia wills"

now we even have calls for "sharia courts for civil disputes"

what next full blown sharia courts and the punishments that go with them

how long till we get invites to the next instalment of stone the tart ???

by Raggamuffin Fri Jan 15, 2016 7:44 pm

There are laws in this country re slaughter of animals which even Muslims have to abide by.

by Guest Fri Jan 15, 2016 7:45 pm

Baloney Victor, what you are saying is accomdating food leads to other accomadations, which are seperate things looked at. You are trying to claim that accomadating Halal is a steo away from Sharia law?
So show me how Vegitarians lead to Veggie Law?

by Victorismyhero Fri Jan 15, 2016 7:46 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:There are laws in this country re slaughter of animals which even Muslims have to abide by.

That is beside the point re the gist on my argument

by Victorismyhero Fri Jan 15, 2016 7:52 pm

Didge wrote:Baloney Victor, what you are saying is accomdating food leads to other accomadations, which are seperate things looked at. You are trying to claim that accomadating Halal is a steo away from Sharia law?
So show me how Vegitarians lead to Veggie Law?

I'm saying that indeed it is didge...

I provides a sense of entitlement

we gave in on halal
we gave in on sharia wills

sharia courts are being looked at

your "separation" of them is pure baloney...they are NOT separate issues

creeping islamification

and I dont need to show you have veggies lead to veggie law as there is no comparison, except that both be fads. the most telling point being that veggieisn isnt considered a "culture" or "religion~" in the way that islam is...It has no status...

If it did then the story might be different...

come on....that was weak.....

by Guest Fri Jan 15, 2016 7:56 pm

The above reasoning is absurd.

Accomadating food is far removed from have duel laws.

One does not effect anyone, because its like anyone else who has a preference on food, as already seen we have non-religious people who have different food preferneces based on their beliefs, whether that be Vegitarian or Vegan. This choice does not harm anyone.

The other is having laws that conflict and cannot effect the well being and very much clash with equality

Hence you have no point, that one is of no danger or effect on anyone, the other is.

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