Claudia Rankine: ‘Blackness in the white imagination has nothing to do with black people’

First topic message reminder :

The award-winning poet on Serena Williams, her emotional book signings and why racism is inescapable

Your book, Citizen: An American Lyric, has won the National Book Critics’ Circle poetry award in the US, the Forward in the UK and is shortlisted for the TS Eliot prize. It exposes racism in the US at its most violent and at its most nuanced. Why the title?
I called it Citizen because I wanted to ask: who gets to hold that status – despite everyone technically having it? How is it embodied and honoured? The title contains a question.

What the book does most powerfully is to make it clear that racism is everyone’s problem.
Racism is complicated. White people feel personally responsible for racism when they should understand the problem as systemic. It is interfering as much with their lives as with the lives of people of colour. And racism can lodge in them. It isn’t them yet it can become them if they are not taking notice.

Does the subject sometimes feel a burden to write about?
For me, this will sound odd. I find it interesting to look at language itself and think about what language can do. Language reveals something that happens so fast. It is language that pulls moments into their reality. And for readers – for people of colour – they have said they find it cathartic to have moments that they have kept to themselves openly written about.

Is there a denial of racism among black people?
I don’t think black people are in denial. They just need to lead their lives. They are going to shut things up and there will be repression. I include myself in that.

I find it interesting to look at language itself and think about what language can do
The book is much more than autobiographical. How many people did you interview in preparation for writing?
It was a loose anthropological exercise [laughter]. I spoke to my friends! About 25 people, black and white.

Has Serena Williams read or responded to the piece in Citizen in which you champion her?
Well, do you know what has just happened? Apparently, Serena Williams is [Sports Illustrated’s] athlete of the year and the LA Times has put out a cover to its sports magazine asking the question: does Serena Williams deserves sportsperson of the year more than a horse? [Kentucky Derby winner American Pharaoh is the horse in question.] As one of my friends protested: this is the same paper that made Citizen one of its books of the year. And, yes, Serena has seen what I wrote about her. I interviewed her for the New York Times in August. I took her willingness to be interviewed as a sign of approval.

“Because white men can’t/ police their imagination/ black men are dying.” What was in your mind when you wrote that line?
When white men are shooting black people, some of it is malice and some an out-of-control image of blackness in their minds. Darren Wilson told the jury that he shot Michael Brown because he looked “like a demon”. And I don’t disbelieve it. Blackness in the white imagination has nothing to do with black people.

Why is it so hard to call out racism?
Because making other people uncomfortable is thought worse than racism. It has taken me a while to train myself to speak out.

You make “situation videos” with your husband, John Lucas, using news stories, to illustrate your poems dynamically…
Yes – have you seen the recent video in Clinton correctional facility where guards refer to a black prisoner’s “non-compliant” body? He is non-compliant because he is dead.

You quote a friend of yours who said: “The condition of black life is one of mourning.” Do you agree?
Yes, I would agree, although black culture is also alive and vibrant.

You have a daughter – how do you arm her against racism?
It is important black parents are on guard against self-hatred, which gets communicated to children. We talk about racism but my daughter gets sick of it and rolls her eyes…


You were born in Jamaica. Do you define yourself through it? Do you feel pride in being black? Or is that a racist question – I’d find it absurd if anyone asked me whether I have pride in being white…
It is not a question I would ask. It is like asking: do you feel a pride in being human? I am a black person, it has made me into the person I am. I grew up with Jamaican parents and came here when I was seven. My parents came to the US, as all immigrants do, for economic betterment. We lived in the Bronx. My parents worked as hospital orderlies. I know it’s not the image people have of the Bronx but we had a comfortable, regular working-class life.


How did this lead to becoming a writer?
I went to Williams College, a fantastic liberal arts school. I started writing in my sophomore year after reading the poet Adrienne Rich and thinking: this is almost right but does not quite say what I want to say…

How often in your life in southern California does racism impinge on you?
I have had a privileged life in academia. But racism is inescapable, even among well-educated, questioning people.

You have mentioned walking in the mountains with your dog, Sammy. Is that your escape when you are not on the literary frontline?
I am considering walking in the mountains this afternoon, but don’t see it as an escape. Walking is slow, meditative.

You have talked about an incident at an airport where you were travelling with your husband, who is white. You were stopped and you said: “I am being racially profiled.” Why did they stop you?
You can’t know – but they stopped me. Then they said: “Go.” No explanation. When I said: “I’m being racially profiled”, the official asked: “Why are you saying that?” And he did look chagrined.

In a New Yorker article you wrote: “There really is no mode of empathy that can replicate the daily strain of knowing that as a black person you can be killed simply for being black.” What is needed if empathy is useless?
I’m not saying that anything can be enough. Empathy is not a cure.

What’s the most surprising reaction to your book been so far?
The initial embrace of the book was surprising. You don’t know if two people will read it. And to have people come out in force… The most surprising thing has been the number of Asian women who have come up to me at book signings with tears in their eyes to say: this is my life you’re writing.

Citizen: An American Lyric is published by Penguin (£9.99). Click here to order a copy for £7.99

More interviews Topics



Your book, Citizen: An American Lyric, has won the National Book Critics’ Circle poetry award in the US, the Forward in the UK and is shortlisted for the TS Eliot prize. It exposes racism in the US at its most violent and at its most nuanced. Why the title?
I called it Citizen because I wanted to ask: who gets to hold that status – despite everyone technically having it? How is it embodied and honoured? The title contains a question.

What the book does most powerfully is to make it clear that racism is everyone’s problem.
Racism is complicated. White people feel personally responsible for racism when they should understand the problem as systemic. It is interfering as much with their lives as with the lives of people of colour. And racism can lodge in them. It isn’t them yet it can become them if they are not taking notice.

Does the subject sometimes feel a burden to write about?
For me, this will sound odd. I find it interesting to look at language itself and think about what language can do. Language reveals something that happens so fast. It is language that pulls moments into their reality. And for readers – for people of colour – they have said they find it cathartic to have moments that they have kept to themselves openly written about.

Is there a denial of racism among black people?
I don’t think black people are in denial. They just need to lead their lives. They are going to shut things up and there will be repression. I include myself in that.

I find it interesting to look at language itself and think about what language can do
The book is much more than autobiographical. How many people did you interview in preparation for writing?
It was a loose anthropological exercise [laughter]. I spoke to my friends! About 25 people, black and white.

Has Serena Williams read or responded to the piece in Citizen in which you champion her?
Well, do you know what has just happened? Apparently, Serena Williams is [Sports Illustrated’s] athlete of the year and the LA Times has put out a cover to its sports magazine asking the question: does Serena Williams deserves sportsperson of the year more than a horse? [Kentucky Derby winner American Pharaoh is the horse in question.] As one of my friends protested: this is the same paper that made Citizen one of its books of the year. And, yes, Serena has seen what I wrote about her. I interviewed her for the New York Times in August. I took her willingness to be interviewed as a sign of approval.

“Because white men can’t/ police their imagination/ black men are dying.” What was in your mind when you wrote that line?
When white men are shooting black people, some of it is malice and some an out-of-control image of blackness in their minds. Darren Wilson told the jury that he shot Michael Brown because he looked “like a demon”. And I don’t disbelieve it. Blackness in the white imagination has nothing to do with black people.

Why is it so hard to call out racism?
Because making other people uncomfortable is thought worse than racism. It has taken me a while to train myself to speak out.

You make “situation videos” with your husband, John Lucas, using news stories, to illustrate your poems dynamically…
Yes – have you seen the recent video in Clinton correctional facility where guards refer to a black prisoner’s “non-compliant” body? He is non-compliant because he is dead.

You quote a friend of yours who said: “The condition of black life is one of mourning.” Do you agree?
Yes, I would agree, although black culture is also alive and vibrant.

You have a daughter – how do you arm her against racism?
It is important black parents are on guard against self-hatred, which gets communicated to children. We talk about racism but my daughter gets sick of it and rolls her eyes…

Citizen: An American Lyric by Claudia Rankine review – the ugly truth of racism
Claudia Rankine challenges the reader to question their own assumptions about race
Read more
You were born in Jamaica. Do you define yourself through it? Do you feel pride in being black? Or is that a racist question – I’d find it absurd if anyone asked me whether I have pride in being white…
It is not a question I would ask. It is like asking: do you feel a pride in being human? I am a black person, it has made me into the person I am. I grew up with Jamaican parents and came here when I was seven. My parents came to the US, as all immigrants do, for economic betterment. We lived in the Bronx. My parents worked as hospital orderlies. I know it’s not the image people have of the Bronx but we had a comfortable, regular working-class life.

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How did this lead to becoming a writer?
I went to Williams College, a fantastic liberal arts school. I started writing in my sophomore year after reading the poet Adrienne Rich and thinking: this is almost right but does not quite say what I want to say…

How often in your life in southern California does racism impinge on you?
I have had a privileged life in academia. But racism is inescapable, even among well-educated, questioning people.

You have mentioned walking in the mountains with your dog, Sammy. Is that your escape when you are not on the literary frontline?
I am considering walking in the mountains this afternoon, but don’t see it as an escape. Walking is slow, meditative.

You have talked about an incident at an airport where you were travelling with your husband, who is white. You were stopped and you said: “I am being racially profiled.” Why did they stop you?
You can’t know – but they stopped me. Then they said: “Go.” No explanation. When I said: “I’m being racially profiled”, the official asked: “Why are you saying that?” And he did look chagrined.


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Read more
In a New Yorker article you wrote: “There really is no mode of empathy that can replicate the daily strain of knowing that as a black person you can be killed simply for being black.” What is needed if empathy is useless?
I’m not saying that anything can be enough. Empathy is not a cure.

What’s the most surprising reaction to your book been so far?
The initial embrace of the book was surprising. You don’t know if two people will read it. And to have people come out in force… The most surprising thing has been the number of Asian women who have come up to me at book signings with tears in their eyes to say: this is my life you’re writing.

Citizen: An American Lyric is published by Penguin (£9.99). Click here to order a copy for £7.99

More interviews Topics



http://www.theguardian.com/books/2015/dec/27/claudia-rankine-poet-citizen-american-lyric-feature

Didge wrote:

Ben_Reilly wrote:

Didge wrote:


Well I was under the impression you would no doubt miss, being as the target was too small

Maybe, but I'd not deface this natural beauty for all the oil in Houston ...

Well it might make you more acceptable looks wise to Texan society

http://www.onlyinyourstate.com/texas/beautiful-people-from-tx/

This comment was made to me by an American Soldier.

Texas, full of Steers And Queers.

nicko wrote:This comment was made to me by an American Soldier.

Texas,   full of Steers And Queers.

Steady on Nicko, not fair to mock homosexuals, just because Ben is a complete idiot

I imagine he is the court Jester of Texas

Ben_Reilly wrote:

Didge wrote:


Well it might make you more acceptable looks wise to Texan society

http://www.onlyinyourstate.com/texas/beautiful-people-from-tx/

Indeed they are, so what happened to you?

Didge wrote:

nicko wrote:This comment was made to me by an American Soldier.

Texas,   full of Steers And Queers.

Steady on Nicko, not fair to mock homosexuals, just because Ben is a complete idiot

I imagine he is the court Jester of Texas

Thanks for the new title!

Ben_Reilly wrote:

Didge wrote:


Steady on Nicko, not fair to mock homosexuals, just because Ben is a complete idiot

I imagine he is the court Jester of Texas

Thanks for the new title!

Well deserved, so no problem

veya_victaous wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:

What a strange question. I suppose you think the Brits should pay India for anything that happened before the Brits showed up.

Honestly the more you post the more i do Support the IRA,(as said never gave a shit before)  English people are obviously still just as evil to the very core of the self-centred racist hearts as they were during the height of colonial oppression.
 
Whinging pathetic thieves. that can't make shit of themselves now they have to actually work. Nothing But Downhill since they haven't been able to oppress and enslave others.

Most nations are built on invasion, conquer and warfare.   

For years Britain has given financial aid to India, huge amounts.  Holding grievances about things that happened centuries ago is futile and utterly pointless.   

Do you see us demanding recompense from Rome?

HoratioTarr wrote:

veya_victaous wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:

What a strange question. I suppose you think the Brits should pay India for anything that happened before the Brits showed up.

Honestly the more you post the more i do Support the IRA,(as said never gave a shit before)  English people are obviously still just as evil to the very core of the self-centred racist hearts as they were during the height of colonial oppression.
 
Whinging pathetic thieves. that can't make shit of themselves now they have to actually work. Nothing But Downhill since they haven't been able to oppress and enslave others.

Most nations are built on invasion, conquer and warfare.   

For years Britain has given financial aid to India, huge amounts.  Holding grievances about things that happened centuries ago is futile and utterly pointless.   

Do you see us demanding recompense from Rome?

In Britain is it customary to inherit your parents' wealth?

Ben_Reilly wrote:

HoratioTarr wrote:

Most nations are built on invasion, conquer and warfare.   

For years Britain has given financial aid to India, huge amounts.  Holding grievances about things that happened centuries ago is futile and utterly pointless.   

Do you see us demanding recompense from Rome?

In Britain is it customary to inherit your parents' wealth?

So what if they inherit nothing, does that get them off the hook in your book for crimes committed centuries ago?

The governments are responsible for such payments to wrongs done in the past

Yes people benefit from a society they are born into, but they have committed no wrong, yet you wish to stain them in the blood of the past, which is also wrong

Didge wrote:

Ben_Reilly wrote:

HoratioTarr wrote:

Most nations are built on invasion, conquer and warfare.   

For years Britain has given financial aid to India, huge amounts.  Holding grievances about things that happened centuries ago is futile and utterly pointless.   

Do you see us demanding recompense from Rome?

In Britain is it customary to inherit your parents' wealth?

So what if they inherit nothing, does that get them off the hook in your book for crimes committed centuries ago?

The governments are responsible for such payments to wrongs done in the past

Yes people benefit from a society they are born into, but they have committed no wrong, yet you wish to stain them in the blood of the past, which is also wrong

But now we're hitting at the heart of the problem. If you inherit a large sum from your parents, should you not also inherit any wrongdoing that was done to acquire that wealth? If not, why not?

If my mother stole all your money and valuables, and wasn't caught before she died, should I be allowed to inherit it, invest it, build on it and pass it on to my own children?

Ben_Reilly wrote:

Didge wrote:


So what if they inherit nothing, does that get them off the hook in your book for crimes committed centuries ago?

The governments are responsible for such payments to wrongs done in the past

Yes people benefit from a society they are born into, but they have committed no wrong, yet you wish to stain them in the blood of the past, which is also wrong

But now we're hitting at the heart of the problem. If you inherit a large sum from your parents, should you not also inherit any wrongdoing that was done to acquire that wealth? If not, why not?

If my mother stole all your money and valuables, and wasn't caught before she died, should I be allowed to inherit it, invest it, build on it and pass it on to my own children?

Why would you assume that people acquired wealth via wrongdoing? Perhaps they saved money they earned, perhaps they bought a house which then went up in value - which is very likely. Perhaps they invested their money overseas and made some that way. Perhaps they worked hard and took risks which paid off. You seem to assume that anyone who has money got it by stealing it.

Ben_Reilly wrote:

Didge wrote:


So what if they inherit nothing, does that get them off the hook in your book for crimes committed centuries ago?

The governments are responsible for such payments to wrongs done in the past

Yes people benefit from a society they are born into, but they have committed no wrong, yet you wish to stain them in the blood of the past, which is also wrong

But now we're hitting at the heart of the problem. If you inherit a large sum from your parents, should you not also inherit any wrongdoing that was done to acquire that wealth? If not, why not?

If my mother stole all your money and valuables, and wasn't caught before she died, should I be allowed to inherit it, invest it, build on it and pass it on to my own children?

But if my parents made their own money when they came from a very poor background, did that have anything to do with the country or the hard work they did? You are equating wealth to be down to the country and not the individual. Where again inheriting wealth from your direct descendant is far removed from people centuries back.

Its up to you what you do with your mothers money she stole, that is down to you, what about then your grand children are they then responsible for her crimes?

No, that would just be absurd as you are being now

People from long ago did many things wrong and collectively the country should repay through the government, not the individual, as you make wrongly all culpable, even the homeless which is just daft

HoratioTarr wrote:

veya_victaous wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:

What a strange question. I suppose you think the Brits should pay India for anything that happened before the Brits showed up.

Honestly the more you post the more i do Support the IRA,(as said never gave a shit before)  English people are obviously still just as evil to the very core of the self-centred racist hearts as they were during the height of colonial oppression.
 
Whinging pathetic thieves. that can't make shit of themselves now they have to actually work. Nothing But Downhill since they haven't been able to oppress and enslave others.

Most nations are built on invasion, conquer and warfare.   

For years Britain has given financial aid to India, huge amounts.  Holding grievances about things that happened centuries ago is futile and utterly pointless.   

Do you see us demanding recompense from Rome?

NOT CENTURIES !!!!!! get real!!!
not this Rubbish Propaganda they teach in Britain where you Spread civilization through Rape and Murder!!!
Even Australia didn't manage to free itself from Being Raped by British Lords and Stop them stealing from the Aboriginals until the 1970's!!!

Gather round people i'll tell you a story
An eight year long story of power and pride
British Lord Vestey and Vincent Lingiari
Were opposite men on opposite sides

Vestey was fat with money and muscle
Beef was his business, broad was his door
Vincent was lean and spoke very little
He had no bank balance, hard dirt was his floor

From little things big things grow
From little things big things grow

Gurindji were working for nothing but rations
Where once they had gathered the wealth of the land
Daily the pressure got tighter and tighter
Gurindju decided they must make a stand

I see Veya is twisting the facts again

So I suppose Australia had no say at all for decades then about how it treated the aboriginies?

Do not tell porkies and lay all the blame on the British when the Aussies have as much if not more to answer for the wrongs done in Australia





http://www.creativespirits.info/aboriginalculture/politics/compensation-for-stolen-generation-members#axzz41b19xTlj

pretty much correct, we could still be over ruled by the house of lords and the UK threatened to leave us unprotected if we did anything about it.
That is until PM John Curtain in WW2 made an alliance with the USA Primarily to defend the Pacific which removed the reliance on England for military support allow Australians to actually put the treatment of aboriginals to the vote, the first time it went to the vote the British Lords Got Kicked in favour of the giving the aboriginals back some of the their land.


and there has been consistent increases in the reparations for the Crimes of the British empire

And how often did the House of Lords over rule countless Australian decisions?

Its no good deflecting blame all the time Veya, Aussies have done countless wrongs to the Aboriginals

I think you need to start recognizing that the buck stops with the Aussie Government to look out for the Aboriginies

Didge wrote:And how often did the House of Lords over rule countless Australian decisions?

Its no good deflecting blame all the time Veya, Aussies have done countless wrongs to the Aboriginals

I think you need to start recognizing that the buck stops with the Aussie Government to look out for the Aboriginies

multiple times I couldn’t tell you as we didn’t have a right to know under the old system imposed by the UK, we had to break because Churchill was demanding we leave Australia completely undefended and come save Britain and would have the legal power to do so had Curtain not passed several key pieces of legislation

And yes it does, which shows that the Further we have moved away for the UK Politically the nicer kinder and more reasonable we have become Plus the More compensation we are willing to give the Aboriginals people for the crimes of the British empire.

Again deflecting the blame done by Aussies

So you cannot show me all these so called over rules then

The buck stops with the Australian Government and its time you as a nation looked out and compensated the Aboriginals who you still do not provide with equality

veya_victaous wrote:

Didge wrote:And how often did the House of Lords over rule countless Australian decisions?

Its no good deflecting blame all the time Veya, Aussies have done countless wrongs to the Aboriginals

I think you need to start recognizing that the buck stops with the Aussie Government to look out for the Aboriginies

multiple times I couldn’t tell you as we didn’t have a right to know under the old system imposed by the UK, we had to break because Churchill was demanding we leave Australia completely undefended and come save Britain and would have the legal power to do so had Curtain not passed several key pieces of legislation

And yes it does, which shows that the Further we have moved away for the UK Politically the nicer kinder and more reasonable we have become Plus the More compensation we are willing to give the Aboriginals people for the crimes of the British empire.

These "crimes" were committed by the relatives of your fellow citizens, and there are still arguments about who should be "compensated" or not. You really need to stop seeing Australia as such a virtuous place.

Didge wrote:

Ben_Reilly wrote:

Didge wrote:


So what if they inherit nothing, does that get them off the hook in your book for crimes committed centuries ago?

The governments are responsible for such payments to wrongs done in the past

Yes people benefit from a society they are born into, but they have committed no wrong, yet you wish to stain them in the blood of the past, which is also wrong

But now we're hitting at the heart of the problem. If you inherit a large sum from your parents, should you not also inherit any wrongdoing that was done to acquire that wealth? If not, why not?

If my mother stole all your money and valuables, and wasn't caught before she died, should I be allowed to inherit it, invest it, build on it and pass it on to my own children?

But if my parents made their own money when they came from a very poor background, did that have anything to do with the country or the hard work they did? You are equating wealth to be down to the country and not the individual. Where again inheriting wealth from your direct descendant is far removed from people centuries back.

Its up to you what you do with your mothers money she stole, that is down to you, what about then your grand children are they then responsible for her crimes?

No, that would just be absurd as you are being now

People from long ago did many things wrong and collectively the country should repay through the government, not the individual, as you make wrongly all culpable, even the homeless which is just daft

Of course I'm not arguing that individuals must pay reparations; the government is the most appropriate vector. My point is, the wealth of Britain (and the U.S.) came at a grave cost to many sovereign, indigenous peoples, and justice demands reparation.

Ben_Reilly wrote:

Didge wrote:


But if my parents made their own money when they came from a very poor background, did that have anything to do with the country or the hard work they did? You are equating wealth to be down to the country and not the individual. Where again inheriting wealth from your direct descendant is far removed from people centuries back.

Its up to you what you do with your mothers money she stole, that is down to you, what about then your grand children are they then responsible for her crimes?

No, that would just be absurd as you are being now

People from long ago did many things wrong and collectively the country should repay through the government, not the individual, as you make wrongly all culpable, even the homeless which is just daft

Of course I'm not arguing that individuals must pay reparations; the government is the most appropriate vector. My point is, the wealth of Britain (and the U.S.) came at a grave cost to many sovereign, indigenous peoples, and justice demands reparation.

Yes it did, but again   your argument on inheritance was just plain absurd

This country gives more in aid to many countries and has compensated many, but still needs to do more

The people alive today should be thankful they are born into such an advanced society, but they are not to blame for the problems in other nations, due to their ancestors

Humanity has advanced since then and you fail to take into account back then the thought process and thinking was far removed from what it is today, but it was people who brought about change within these nations

War comes at a cost, but it also brings advancement, to the point when we recognise wrongs done, but you need those wars in the first place to happen and to gain from to then recognise that wrong. Without those gains, would we have advanced to the position of enlightenment with have today?

No, so sadly those wars and gains go hand in hand with advancement and thus repayments

Didge wrote:Again deflecting the blame done by Aussies

So you cannot show me all these so called over rules then

The buck stops with the Australian Government and its time you as a nation looked out and compensated the Aboriginals who you still do not provide with equality

So you didn't read my  post at all
Clearly answered everything in this post already


i said YES it does which is Why you can see how much it  has improved in since the 1970's when we gained political independence from the Uk and Shifted to the USA where Martin Luther King had just made his dream speech And Australians Jumped right onto it.

And no we cant show it, what the Fuck to you think I am magic, can time travel or something to watch all the shady deals. our original constitution was set up to rort the Australia for the benefit of British lords. It specifically hid all the details.


So as I pay toward righting the crimes of the British Empire I don’t see why Anyone in Britain that is benefiting from the infrastructure paid for by those crimes should not

veya_victaous wrote:

Didge wrote:Again deflecting the blame done by Aussies

So you cannot show me all these so called over rules then

The buck stops with the Australian Government and its time you as a nation looked out and compensated the Aboriginals who you still do not provide with equality

So you didn't read my  post at all
Clearly answered everything in this post already


i said YES it does which is Why you can see how much it  has improved in since the 1970's when we gained political independence from the Uk and Shifted to the USA where Martin Luther King had just made his dream speech And Australians Jumped right onto it.

And no we cant show it, what the Fuck to you think I am magic, can time travel or something to watch all the shady deals. our original constitution was set up to rort the Australia for the benefit of British lords. It specifically hid all the details.


So as I pay toward righting the crimes of the British Empire I don’t see why Anyone in Britain that is benefiting from the infrastructure paid for by those crimes should not

I read your post, it was full of passing the buck again onto the British when they have had little involvement for years with Australia

Your problem is you cannot look to find fault within your own people, when still today there is a lack of equality

Britain has far more equality than Australia does and is far more progressive than Australia in every sense of the word

You only have to look at how they treat their own Aborigines still today and refugees

You are benefiting from the British Empire today, because you simply would not be there or to the level of advancement if it was not for the British Empire. Australia gained as much from the Empire as the British did themselves and you are living that today within its advancements, all of which would have not been possible without the British Empire

Again they go hand in hand for good and for bad

Didge wrote:

Ben_Reilly wrote:

Didge wrote:


But if my parents made their own money when they came from a very poor background, did that have anything to do with the country or the hard work they did? You are equating wealth to be down to the country and not the individual. Where again inheriting wealth from your direct descendant is far removed from people centuries back.

Its up to you what you do with your mothers money she stole, that is down to you, what about then your grand children are they then responsible for her crimes?

No, that would just be absurd as you are being now

People from long ago did many things wrong and collectively the country should repay through the government, not the individual, as you make wrongly all culpable, even the homeless which is just daft

Of course I'm not arguing that individuals must pay reparations; the government is the most appropriate vector. My point is, the wealth of Britain (and the U.S.) came at a grave cost to many sovereign, indigenous peoples, and justice demands reparation.

Yes it did, but again   your argument on inheritance was just plain absurd

This country gives more in aid to many countries and has compensated many, but still needs to do more

The people alive today should be thankful they are born into such an advanced society, but they are not to blame for the problems in other nations, due to their ancestors

Humanity has advanced since then and you fail to take into account back then the thought process and thinking was far removed from what it is today, but it was people who brought about change within these nations

War comes at a cost, but it also brings advancement, to the point when we recognise wrongs done, but you need those wars in the first place to happen and to gain from to then recognise that wrong. Without those gains, would we have advanced to the position of enlightenment with have today?

No, so sadly those wars and gains go hand in hand with advancement and thus repayments

Fuck that RIGTH OFF
humanity in EUROPE and the UK was NOT advanced, Others Where too humane for their own good and got massacred by the ultra-Brutal violent unreasonable uncivilized Europeans and British

And Fuck off with your suggestion it was worth it!!!! Not to all the peoples Killed and raped and societies destroyed so the UK could learn some fucking basic humanity while Filling it's coffers with Stolen wealth!!!!

lol I see veya is back to giving reds when he does not like the truth

I can see where this debate will end up, so will just wait for Ben to reply

veya_victaous wrote:

Didge wrote:


Yes it did, but again   your argument on inheritance was just plain absurd

This country gives more in aid to many countries and has compensated many, but still needs to do more

The people alive today should be thankful they are born into such an advanced society, but they are not to blame for the problems in other nations, due to their ancestors

Humanity has advanced since then and you fail to take into account back then the thought process and thinking was far removed from what it is today, but it was people who brought about change within these nations

War comes at a cost, but it also brings advancement, to the point when we recognise wrongs done, but you need those wars in the first place to happen and to gain from to then recognise that wrong. Without those gains, would we have advanced to the position of enlightenment with have today?

No, so sadly those wars and gains go hand in hand with advancement and thus repayments

Fuck that RIGTH OFF
humanity in EUROPE and the UK was NOT advanced, Others Where too humane for their own good and got massacred by the ultra-Brutal violent unreasonable uncivilized Europeans and British

And Fuck off with your suggestion it was worth it!!!! Not to all the peoples Killed and raped and societies destroyed so the UK could learn some fucking basic humanity while Filling it's coffers with Stolen wealth!!!!

It was advanced and war has always advanced society far quicker than in peace time

That is a fact

I never claimed any atrocities were right

I simply am stating the current position would not be as it is today without these advancements

That is a fact

Put some soap in your potty mouth as well

In your fucking dreams do you have more equality

I can see the hatred that Even supposedly 'Not racsits' like eddie fucking post, you your self have defend her, here no one wouls she is obviosuly racist, so Fuck off you got know fucking clue when you are being racist let alone what equality is dumb fuck. Most people Do not value Britsh Values and traditions we see them AS THE PROBLEM! 

They Even TOLD YOU, you are not British thety are so Fucking Racsit !!!!

veya_victaous wrote:

Didge wrote:Again deflecting the blame done by Aussies

So you cannot show me all these so called over rules then

The buck stops with the Australian Government and its time you as a nation looked out and compensated the Aboriginals who you still do not provide with equality

So you didn't read my  post at all
Clearly answered everything in this post already


i said YES it does which is Why you can see how much it  has improved in since the 1970's when we gained political independence from the Uk and Shifted to the USA where Martin Luther King had just made his dream speech And Australians Jumped right onto it.

And no we cant show it, what the Fuck to you think I am magic, can time travel or something to watch all the shady deals. our original constitution was set up to rort the Australia for the benefit of British lords. It specifically hid all the details.


So as I pay toward righting the crimes of the British Empire I don’t see why Anyone in Britain that is benefiting from the infrastructure paid for by those crimes should not

You're paying for the crimes of Aussies, not the British Empire. People in Britain shouldn't have to pay for what you lot did.

Oh and the reason that the Uk is far more progressive than both Australia and the US

It is learning faster the wrongs of its past and how to correct them, by treating better the people within its own nation

It learn to get over a civil war which the Americans never have done

The Aussies are at best still children trying to learn from their mother the British and still doing a very poor job of this

Britain did many wrongs in the past mainly as she mentally was not advanced enough yet but its wealth allowed for many free thinkers who did bring about change

So the bad goes hand in hand with the good

veya_victaous wrote:In your fucking dreams do you have more equality

I can see the hatred that Even supposedly 'Not racsits' like eddie fucking post, you your self have defend her, here no one wouls she is obviosuly racist, so Fuck off you got know fucking clue when you are being racist let alone what equality is dumb fuck. Most people Do not value Britsh Values and traditions we see them AS THE PROBLEM! 

They Even TOLD YOU, you are not British thety are so Fucking Racsit !!!!

You don't have to value British values because you're not British and never will be. You should sort out your racist country before you point the finger at any other countries.

lol I see mods do not have to worry about flood control when they act like children giving out reds

What an idiot and a child lol

Guess he does not like the truth lol

I shall await Ben to comment and then post again in the moring

Night baby veya lol

@Didge
You and Raggs have spent this entire thread PROVING that the UK is NOT as progressive and Still trying to hide from it crimes and Avoid compensating the victims.
IF you were in Any way progressive then You would support repatriating those that have suffered at your ancestors hands (even if via proxy due top later migration) that have left you in the position you are in today.
 
the Fact that a LW like Les doesn't even support reparation shows How far the Uk has to go to be 'civil' in the worlds eyes.
 
So seriously get fucked with your obvious lies about Britain advancing even half as fast as Australia or New Zealand.

Didge wrote:lol I see mods do not have to worry about flood control when they act like children giving out reds

What an idiot and a child lol

Guess he does not like the truth lol

I shall await Ben to comment and then post again in the moring

Night baby veya lol

you say this when i vote once please go fuck your self

3 reds on this one page, 2 to me and 1 to rags

lol what a baby


Also Veya has nothing to counter my facts and the fact both the US and Australia and years behind the Uk in regards to progression and equality

veya_victaous wrote:@Didge
You and Raggs have spent this entire thread PROVING that the UK is NOT as progressive and Still trying to hide from it crimes and Avoid compensating the victims.
IF you were in Any way progressive then You would support repatriating those that have suffered at your ancestors hands (even if via proxy due top later migration) that have left you in the position you are in today.
 
the Fact that a LW like Les doesn't even support reparation shows How far the Uk has to go to be 'civil' in the worlds eyes.
 
So seriously get fucked with your obvious lies about Britain advancing even half as fast as Australia or New Zealand.

Of course the UK is progressive. As I said, if it wasn't for the British you wouldn't be in Australia now. You Aussies benefited from the UK, and it's time you realised that. Instead of demanding that British citizens in the UK pay for your crimes, you should be paying us for all the benefits you gained.

Gay Marriage

The UK has this

Some US states has this

How about Australia?

De-facto relationship legal status on par with marriage
Australia Has it how about the Uk?
Oh right that would take you making the effort to understand what another nation has and not FORCING the ASSUMPTION of your own shit policies
 
Why is Your equality shit? let me explain Why you are behind.
How does it help the abused, the mistreated, girl taken for a ride but never married left for a younger model? does it grant legal status to every one fairly? No it doesn’t. It just lets one more limited group gain rights granted through historical religious institutions
 
FUCK that! why does marriage matter at all, If 2 people live together and love each other plan to spend the lives as an entwined couple then why should they have to get a piece of paper associated with religious institutions?
 
Better to recognise LOVE and Partnership don't need some official to recognise them in order to not only be real But to bring life into the world so
a MUCH SMARTER & FAIRER option is to remove all importance of marriage and embrace legal recognition of De-facto relationships that people are free to enter into themselves without any institution telling them what to do or be.

Raggamuffin wrote:

veya_victaous wrote:@Didge
You and Raggs have spent this entire thread PROVING that the UK is NOT as progressive and Still trying to hide from it crimes and Avoid compensating the victims.
IF you were in Any way progressive then You would support repatriating those that have suffered at your ancestors hands (even if via proxy due top later migration) that have left you in the position you are in today.
 
the Fact that a LW like Les doesn't even support reparation shows How far the Uk has to go to be 'civil' in the worlds eyes.
 
So seriously get fucked with your obvious lies about Britain advancing even half as fast as Australia or New Zealand.

Of course the UK is progressive. As I said, if it wasn't for the British you wouldn't be in Australia now. You Aussies benefited from the UK, and it's time you realised that. Instead of demanding that British citizens in the UK pay for your crimes, you should be paying us for all the benefits you gained.

 

Moron I am ALREADY Paying for your crimes that paid for the infrastructure YOU use and I have never even seen!!!!!
 
No we have not benefited as Much as England did that treated most early Australians like slaves.
AND You should be paying all the other nations You also Raped.

As Said Previously Australia Has money we are already going to look after the indigenous people here that suffered as we are partially responsible

But there is a bunch of other nations ALL of them RAPED by YOU and you don't want to help any of them Because you are just a scumbag piece of shit, that is simple as that no different than anyone that doesn’t want to pay for the goods and services they have consumed and expect other less fortunate than themselves to pay. 
ALL British taxpayer should pay towards reparation like all Australians pay towards repatriations. The fact you not only don’t but are so selfish argue against PROVES that You are not a kind progressive nation At all. Stuff your propaganda where the sun don’t shine You and didge PROVE it to be LIES  

I see the child is still ranting and could not answer my questions

Does Australia have equal rights for homosexuals?

No

Do Aboriginals receive full equality?

No

How many Aboriginals in Parliament?

Out of the 32 Indigenous Australians elected to any Australian Parliament, 12 have been women. Nobody of acknowledged Aboriginal or Torres Strait Islander ancestry has been a member of the parliaments of South Australia or Victoria or of the Norfolk Island assembly.




Is Australia progressive or miles behind the UK


Its obvious is trying to live up to its mother country and failing

I don't know why you keep calling for me to say something, but I will point out that gay marriage is the law in all 50 states here - - not just in a few.

Sounds like Veya has lost it, heart attack, stroke, mental breakdown. So puffed up with his own importance. I imagine him red faced and fuming pounding the keyboard with angry words and capitals.

Cupid Stunt.

nicko wrote:Sounds like Veya has lost it,     heart attack, stroke,  mental breakdown.   So puffed up with his own importance.  I imagine him red faced and fuming pounding the keyboard with angry words and capitals.

Cupid Stunt.

Veya makes more sense than the rest of you combined, because he argues with perspective, something the rest of you completely lack.

Veya is a racist, a bit like you are!
You have proved several times, that like Veya you don't like the Brits!

nicko wrote:Veya is a racist, a bit like you are!
You have proved several times,  that like Veya you don't like the Brits!

I love old JK, the Beatles, Stephen Moffat, etc. I will never take the side of any oppressive government, however, and the UK has been one of the most oppressive the world has ever seen.

Ben_Reilly wrote:I don't know why you keep calling for me to say something, but I will point out that gay marriage is the law in all 50 states here - - not just in  a few.

Maybe because you can never counter my points and are as much of an idiot as Veya is

You both suffer from left wing regression, it is curable mind, its called to stop buying into bullshit

Only after the Brits did you make it law, so you had to look to your mother country for the way to go, well done but still way behind and the fact your country is a cesspit of racist idiots on the left and right, shows your country has a very long way to even understand equality

Ben_Reilly wrote:

nicko wrote:Veya is a racist, a bit like you are!
You have proved several times,  that like Veya you don't like the Brits!

I love old JK, the Beatles, Stephen Moffat, etc. I will never take the side of any oppressive government, however, and the UK has been one of the most oppressive the world has ever seen.

Coming from a Yank, that has to be the funniest and most stupid thing you have ever said

Ben_Reilly wrote:

nicko wrote:Sounds like Veya has lost it,     heart attack, stroke,  mental breakdown.   So puffed up with his own importance.  I imagine him red faced and fuming pounding the keyboard with angry words and capitals.

Cupid Stunt.

Veya makes more sense than the rest of you combined, because he argues with perspective, something the rest of you completely lack.

Only to another regressive idiot such as yourself of course

Didge wrote:

Ben_Reilly wrote:

nicko wrote:Veya is a racist, a bit like you are!
You have proved several times,  that like Veya you don't like the Brits!

I love old JK, the Beatles, Stephen Moffat, etc. I will never take the side of any oppressive government, however, and the UK has been one of the most oppressive the world has ever seen.

Coming from a Yank, that has to be the funniest and most stupid thing you have ever said

Sorry, we can't compete with subjugation of so much of the world that the sun never set on our flag...

Ben_Reilly wrote:

Didge wrote:

Coming from a Yank, that has to be the funniest and most stupid thing you have ever said

Sorry, we can't compete with subjugation so much of the world that the sun never set on our flag...

Really, how about the US involvement in Asia, the Middle East and central America

You really are an idiot when it comes to history

As to subjugation the blacks and native American Indians are still suffering from US subjucation