Claudia Rankine: ‘Blackness in the white imagination has nothing to do with black people’

The award-winning poet on Serena Williams, her emotional book signings and why racism is inescapable

Your book, Citizen: An American Lyric, has won the National Book Critics’ Circle poetry award in the US, the Forward in the UK and is shortlisted for the TS Eliot prize. It exposes racism in the US at its most violent and at its most nuanced. Why the title?
I called it Citizen because I wanted to ask: who gets to hold that status – despite everyone technically having it? How is it embodied and honoured? The title contains a question.

What the book does most powerfully is to make it clear that racism is everyone’s problem.
Racism is complicated. White people feel personally responsible for racism when they should understand the problem as systemic. It is interfering as much with their lives as with the lives of people of colour. And racism can lodge in them. It isn’t them yet it can become them if they are not taking notice.

Does the subject sometimes feel a burden to write about?
For me, this will sound odd. I find it interesting to look at language itself and think about what language can do. Language reveals something that happens so fast. It is language that pulls moments into their reality. And for readers – for people of colour – they have said they find it cathartic to have moments that they have kept to themselves openly written about.

Is there a denial of racism among black people?
I don’t think black people are in denial. They just need to lead their lives. They are going to shut things up and there will be repression. I include myself in that.

I find it interesting to look at language itself and think about what language can do
The book is much more than autobiographical. How many people did you interview in preparation for writing?
It was a loose anthropological exercise [laughter]. I spoke to my friends! About 25 people, black and white.

Has Serena Williams read or responded to the piece in Citizen in which you champion her?
Well, do you know what has just happened? Apparently, Serena Williams is [Sports Illustrated’s] athlete of the year and the LA Times has put out a cover to its sports magazine asking the question: does Serena Williams deserves sportsperson of the year more than a horse? [Kentucky Derby winner American Pharaoh is the horse in question.] As one of my friends protested: this is the same paper that made Citizen one of its books of the year. And, yes, Serena has seen what I wrote about her. I interviewed her for the New York Times in August. I took her willingness to be interviewed as a sign of approval.

“Because white men can’t/ police their imagination/ black men are dying.” What was in your mind when you wrote that line?
When white men are shooting black people, some of it is malice and some an out-of-control image of blackness in their minds. Darren Wilson told the jury that he shot Michael Brown because he looked “like a demon”. And I don’t disbelieve it. Blackness in the white imagination has nothing to do with black people.

Why is it so hard to call out racism?
Because making other people uncomfortable is thought worse than racism. It has taken me a while to train myself to speak out.

You make “situation videos” with your husband, John Lucas, using news stories, to illustrate your poems dynamically…
Yes – have you seen the recent video in Clinton correctional facility where guards refer to a black prisoner’s “non-compliant” body? He is non-compliant because he is dead.

You quote a friend of yours who said: “The condition of black life is one of mourning.” Do you agree?
Yes, I would agree, although black culture is also alive and vibrant.

You have a daughter – how do you arm her against racism?
It is important black parents are on guard against self-hatred, which gets communicated to children. We talk about racism but my daughter gets sick of it and rolls her eyes…


You were born in Jamaica. Do you define yourself through it? Do you feel pride in being black? Or is that a racist question – I’d find it absurd if anyone asked me whether I have pride in being white…
It is not a question I would ask. It is like asking: do you feel a pride in being human? I am a black person, it has made me into the person I am. I grew up with Jamaican parents and came here when I was seven. My parents came to the US, as all immigrants do, for economic betterment. We lived in the Bronx. My parents worked as hospital orderlies. I know it’s not the image people have of the Bronx but we had a comfortable, regular working-class life.


How did this lead to becoming a writer?
I went to Williams College, a fantastic liberal arts school. I started writing in my sophomore year after reading the poet Adrienne Rich and thinking: this is almost right but does not quite say what I want to say…

How often in your life in southern California does racism impinge on you?
I have had a privileged life in academia. But racism is inescapable, even among well-educated, questioning people.

You have mentioned walking in the mountains with your dog, Sammy. Is that your escape when you are not on the literary frontline?
I am considering walking in the mountains this afternoon, but don’t see it as an escape. Walking is slow, meditative.

You have talked about an incident at an airport where you were travelling with your husband, who is white. You were stopped and you said: “I am being racially profiled.” Why did they stop you?
You can’t know – but they stopped me. Then they said: “Go.” No explanation. When I said: “I’m being racially profiled”, the official asked: “Why are you saying that?” And he did look chagrined.

In a New Yorker article you wrote: “There really is no mode of empathy that can replicate the daily strain of knowing that as a black person you can be killed simply for being black.” What is needed if empathy is useless?
I’m not saying that anything can be enough. Empathy is not a cure.

What’s the most surprising reaction to your book been so far?
The initial embrace of the book was surprising. You don’t know if two people will read it. And to have people come out in force… The most surprising thing has been the number of Asian women who have come up to me at book signings with tears in their eyes to say: this is my life you’re writing.

Citizen: An American Lyric is published by Penguin (£9.99). Click here to order a copy for £7.99

More interviews Topics



Your book, Citizen: An American Lyric, has won the National Book Critics’ Circle poetry award in the US, the Forward in the UK and is shortlisted for the TS Eliot prize. It exposes racism in the US at its most violent and at its most nuanced. Why the title?
I called it Citizen because I wanted to ask: who gets to hold that status – despite everyone technically having it? How is it embodied and honoured? The title contains a question.

What the book does most powerfully is to make it clear that racism is everyone’s problem.
Racism is complicated. White people feel personally responsible for racism when they should understand the problem as systemic. It is interfering as much with their lives as with the lives of people of colour. And racism can lodge in them. It isn’t them yet it can become them if they are not taking notice.

Does the subject sometimes feel a burden to write about?
For me, this will sound odd. I find it interesting to look at language itself and think about what language can do. Language reveals something that happens so fast. It is language that pulls moments into their reality. And for readers – for people of colour – they have said they find it cathartic to have moments that they have kept to themselves openly written about.

Is there a denial of racism among black people?
I don’t think black people are in denial. They just need to lead their lives. They are going to shut things up and there will be repression. I include myself in that.

I find it interesting to look at language itself and think about what language can do
The book is much more than autobiographical. How many people did you interview in preparation for writing?
It was a loose anthropological exercise [laughter]. I spoke to my friends! About 25 people, black and white.

Has Serena Williams read or responded to the piece in Citizen in which you champion her?
Well, do you know what has just happened? Apparently, Serena Williams is [Sports Illustrated’s] athlete of the year and the LA Times has put out a cover to its sports magazine asking the question: does Serena Williams deserves sportsperson of the year more than a horse? [Kentucky Derby winner American Pharaoh is the horse in question.] As one of my friends protested: this is the same paper that made Citizen one of its books of the year. And, yes, Serena has seen what I wrote about her. I interviewed her for the New York Times in August. I took her willingness to be interviewed as a sign of approval.

“Because white men can’t/ police their imagination/ black men are dying.” What was in your mind when you wrote that line?
When white men are shooting black people, some of it is malice and some an out-of-control image of blackness in their minds. Darren Wilson told the jury that he shot Michael Brown because he looked “like a demon”. And I don’t disbelieve it. Blackness in the white imagination has nothing to do with black people.

Why is it so hard to call out racism?
Because making other people uncomfortable is thought worse than racism. It has taken me a while to train myself to speak out.

You make “situation videos” with your husband, John Lucas, using news stories, to illustrate your poems dynamically…
Yes – have you seen the recent video in Clinton correctional facility where guards refer to a black prisoner’s “non-compliant” body? He is non-compliant because he is dead.

You quote a friend of yours who said: “The condition of black life is one of mourning.” Do you agree?
Yes, I would agree, although black culture is also alive and vibrant.

You have a daughter – how do you arm her against racism?
It is important black parents are on guard against self-hatred, which gets communicated to children. We talk about racism but my daughter gets sick of it and rolls her eyes…

Citizen: An American Lyric by Claudia Rankine review – the ugly truth of racism
Claudia Rankine challenges the reader to question their own assumptions about race
Read more
You were born in Jamaica. Do you define yourself through it? Do you feel pride in being black? Or is that a racist question – I’d find it absurd if anyone asked me whether I have pride in being white…
It is not a question I would ask. It is like asking: do you feel a pride in being human? I am a black person, it has made me into the person I am. I grew up with Jamaican parents and came here when I was seven. My parents came to the US, as all immigrants do, for economic betterment. We lived in the Bronx. My parents worked as hospital orderlies. I know it’s not the image people have of the Bronx but we had a comfortable, regular working-class life.

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How did this lead to becoming a writer?
I went to Williams College, a fantastic liberal arts school. I started writing in my sophomore year after reading the poet Adrienne Rich and thinking: this is almost right but does not quite say what I want to say…

How often in your life in southern California does racism impinge on you?
I have had a privileged life in academia. But racism is inescapable, even among well-educated, questioning people.

You have mentioned walking in the mountains with your dog, Sammy. Is that your escape when you are not on the literary frontline?
I am considering walking in the mountains this afternoon, but don’t see it as an escape. Walking is slow, meditative.

You have talked about an incident at an airport where you were travelling with your husband, who is white. You were stopped and you said: “I am being racially profiled.” Why did they stop you?
You can’t know – but they stopped me. Then they said: “Go.” No explanation. When I said: “I’m being racially profiled”, the official asked: “Why are you saying that?” And he did look chagrined.


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Read more
In a New Yorker article you wrote: “There really is no mode of empathy that can replicate the daily strain of knowing that as a black person you can be killed simply for being black.” What is needed if empathy is useless?
I’m not saying that anything can be enough. Empathy is not a cure.

What’s the most surprising reaction to your book been so far?
The initial embrace of the book was surprising. You don’t know if two people will read it. And to have people come out in force… The most surprising thing has been the number of Asian women who have come up to me at book signings with tears in their eyes to say: this is my life you’re writing.

Citizen: An American Lyric is published by Penguin (£9.99). Click here to order a copy for £7.99

More interviews Topics



http://www.theguardian.com/books/2015/dec/27/claudia-rankine-poet-citizen-american-lyric-feature

I think, that even when all racism has long since died out, people will still go on about it all the time.

Perhaps it's prevalent in soon countries but in the uk, it's not a major issue. Nobody really hates someone because of their race or colour anymore....that generation is dying out.

eddie wrote:I think, that even when all racism has long since died out, people will still go on about it all the time.

Perhaps it's prevalent in soon countries but in the uk, it's not a major issue. Nobody really hates someone because of their race or colour anymore....that generation is dying out.

I'm not sure about that.   Perhaps in the UK, it's evolved into resentment.

eddie wrote:I think, that even when all racism has long since died out, people will still go on about it all the time.

Perhaps it's prevalent in soon countries but in the uk, it's not a major issue. Nobody really hates someone because of their race or colour anymore....that generation is dying out.

Maybe when you stop thinking of yourself Eddie and realise that many people suffer racial discrimination

At every turn you are another one who has never faced racial discrimination, trying to tell those of us who have, that its all blown out of .poportion

You see this is what is appalling, is you think in some way, its wrong to talk about this, when the attitude should be on solving and combating racism
Sorry Eddie but you really have a piss poor attitude when it comes to problems like racism, where you hold some very naive beliefs.
So if you are sick of talking about it, then do not bother positing on such threads and then to allow others to carru on discussing the problem

Thanks

eddie wrote:I think, that even when all racism has long since died out, people will still go on about it all the time.

Perhaps it's prevalent in soon countries but in the uk, it's not a major issue. Nobody really hates someone because of their race or colour anymore....that generation is dying out.

So they all just post on Newsfix now?

Seriously, I've encountered more British racists on this site than I've encountered American racists on any board I've been on before.

I never saw people using blackface or golliwogs as avatars before Newsfix. I've never seen anybody say that most rapes in the U.S. are black men raping white women. I've never seen anybody wishing death upon all Muslims before here.

I've also never seen so many people who want to downplay or deny racism, or who want to ignore historical inequity that laid the foundation for inequity today.

Ben_Reilly wrote:

eddie wrote:I think, that even when all racism has long since died out, people will still go on about it all the time.

Perhaps it's prevalent in soon countries but in the uk, it's not a major issue. Nobody really hates someone because of their race or colour anymore....that generation is dying out.

So they all just post on Newsfix now?

Seriously, I've encountered more British racists on this site than I've encountered American racists on any board I've been on before.

I never saw people using blackface or golliwogs as avatars before Newsfix. I've never seen anybody say that most rapes in the U.S. are black men raping white women. I've never seen anybody wishing death upon all Muslims before here.

I've also never seen so many people who want to downplay or deny racism, or who want to ignore historical inequity that laid the foundation for inequity today.

It's not racist to want people to move on from all that history. I happen to think that obsessing too much about history can make people bitter and paranoid.

Raggamuffin wrote:

Ben_Reilly wrote:

eddie wrote:I think, that even when all racism has long since died out, people will still go on about it all the time.

Perhaps it's prevalent in soon countries but in the uk, it's not a major issue. Nobody really hates someone because of their race or colour anymore....that generation is dying out.

So they all just post on Newsfix now?

Seriously, I've encountered more British racists on this site than I've encountered American racists on any board I've been on before.

I never saw people using blackface or golliwogs as avatars before Newsfix. I've never seen anybody say that most rapes in the U.S. are black men raping white women. I've never seen anybody wishing death upon all Muslims before here.

I've also never seen so many people who want to downplay or deny racism, or who want to ignore historical inequity that laid the foundation for inequity today.

It's not racist to want people to move on from all that history. I happen to think that obsessing too much about history can make people bitter and paranoid.

Okay, but sweeping it under the rug does more harm than good. Things are still unequal for many groups in many countries, and that inequality stems from the past.

It's also important for people to understand the breadth and depth of what has been referred to as "man's blind indifference to his fellow man." It is important to study the evil that people are capable of doing to one another, so that it can be avoided or prevented in the future.

Ben_Reilly wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:

It's not racist to want people to move on from all that history. I happen to think that obsessing too much about history can make people bitter and paranoid.

Okay, but sweeping it under the rug does more harm than good. Things are still unequal for many groups in many countries, and that inequality stems from the past.

It's also important for people to understand the breadth and depth of what has been referred to as "man's blind indifference to his fellow man." It is important to study the evil that people are capable of doing to one another, so that it can be avoided or prevented in the future.

I can only speak for myself, and to an extent for the UK. We have equality laws, and we have laws to prevent hate crimes or speech. We do not distinguish between racism against non-white people and racism against white people - not legally anyway, and I think that helps. I don't know what more can be done, and I think that obsessing about every little perceived slight makes things worse.

I actually don't think that people learn that much from history - they just say that a new situation is different to the old one. If people want to be evil, talking about history won't make a difference anyway.

Raggamuffin wrote:

Ben_Reilly wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:

It's not racist to want people to move on from all that history. I happen to think that obsessing too much about history can make people bitter and paranoid.

Okay, but sweeping it under the rug does more harm than good. Things are still unequal for many groups in many countries, and that inequality stems from the past.

It's also important for people to understand the breadth and depth of what has been referred to as "man's blind indifference to his fellow man." It is important to study the evil that people are capable of doing to one another, so that it can be avoided or prevented in the future.

I can only speak for myself, and to an extent for the UK. We have equality laws, and we have laws to prevent hate crimes or speech. We do not distinguish between racism against non-white people and racism against white people - not legally anyway, and I think that helps. I don't know what more can be done, and I think that obsessing about every little perceived slight makes things worse.

I actually don't think that people learn that much from history - they just say that a new situation is different to the old one. If people want to be evil, talking about history won't make a difference anyway.

Sure it will. Good people are more powerful when they're better informed.

The U.S. also has no legal distinction between discrimination against white and against non-whites: http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/02/09/10362607-white-firefighters-awarded-25-million-in-discrimination-case

Ben_Reilly wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:

I can only speak for myself, and to an extent for the UK. We have equality laws, and we have laws to prevent hate crimes or speech. We do not distinguish between racism against non-white people and racism against white people - not legally anyway, and I think that helps. I don't know what more can be done, and I think that obsessing about every little perceived slight makes things worse.

I actually don't think that people learn that much from history - they just say that a new situation is different to the old one. If people want to be evil, talking about history won't make a difference anyway.

Sure it will. Good people are more powerful when they're better informed.

The U.S. also has no legal distinction between discrimination against white and against non-whites: http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/02/09/10362607-white-firefighters-awarded-25-million-in-discrimination-case

You have this "white privilege" thing going on over there though, and this idea that non-white people can't be racist against white people. I think that's asking for trouble.

Re history, if you're basically telling one group that they're victims because of their skin colour and history, and another group that they're perpetrators because they happen to be the same colour as those who did bad things in the past, you'll never move on.

Ben_Reilly wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:

I can only speak for myself, and to an extent for the UK. We have equality laws, and we have laws to prevent hate crimes or speech. We do not distinguish between racism against non-white people and racism against white people - not legally anyway, and I think that helps. I don't know what more can be done, and I think that obsessing about every little perceived slight makes things worse.

I actually don't think that people learn that much from history - they just say that a new situation is different to the old one. If people want to be evil, talking about history won't make a difference anyway.

Sure it will. Good people are more powerful when they're better informed.

The U.S. also has no legal distinction between discrimination against white and against non-whites: http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/02/09/10362607-white-firefighters-awarded-25-million-in-discrimination-case

I notice that article includes the phrase "reverse discrimination". That in itself is drawing a distinction, and shouldn't be used IMO.

Raggamuffin wrote:

Ben_Reilly wrote:

Sure it will. Good people are more powerful when they're better informed.

The U.S. also has no legal distinction between discrimination against white and against non-whites: http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/02/09/10362607-white-firefighters-awarded-25-million-in-discrimination-case

You have this "white privilege" thing going on over there though, and this idea that non-white people can't be racist against white people. I think that's asking for trouble.

Re history, if you're basically telling one group that they're victims because of their skin colour and history, and another group that they're perpetrators because they happen to be the same colour as those who did bad things in the past, you'll never move on.

Clueless

Tell me, when you go onto a hotel Rags, what toiletries are there free to use?

eddie wrote:I think, that even when all racism has long since died out, people will still go on about it all the time.

Perhaps it's prevalent in soon countries but in the uk, it's not a major issue. Nobody really hates someone because of their race or colour anymore....that generation is dying out.

Umm then WTF is posted here

Are you saying that Tommy Stormee Raggs and even Star etc aren't from the Uk ?

I think HT smacked it on the head, the UK just changed it to resentment, it is still Racist as hell.

veya_victaous wrote:

eddie wrote:I think, that even when all racism has long since died out, people will still go on about it all the time.

Perhaps it's prevalent in soon countries but in the uk, it's not a major issue. Nobody really hates someone because of their race or colour anymore....that generation is dying out.

Umm then WTF is posted here

Are you saying that Tommy Stormee Raggs and even Star etc aren't from the Uk ?

I think HT smacked it on the head, the UK just changed it to resentment, it is still Racist as hell.

Who do I hate because of their colour?

Raggamuffin wrote:

veya_victaous wrote:



Umm then WTF is posted here

Are you saying that Tommy Stormee Raggs and even Star etc aren't from the Uk ?

I think HT smacked it on the head, the UK just changed it to resentment, it is still Racist as hell.

Who do I hate because of their colour?

Well based upon your Christian beliefs I could think of a number of reasons.

Christianity is centered around light and where darkness is perceived of a place no Christian would wish to be placed within, as it is seen as empty, no meaning, of no purpose, basically everything negative going. On top of that you have had for centuries Jesus portrayed and believed to be white European.

If religious people already have these negative view centered around what is dark, it can then easily be channeled to view humans that way again based on their darkness.

Of course religiously, skin colour would be rendered meaningless as the afterlife is based upon souls, but fro such negativity around anything viewed and seen to be dark, allows a prejudice view to set in.

Not saying in anyway that you do, but that such views can be born from religious beliefs

Raggamuffin wrote:

veya_victaous wrote:

eddie wrote:I think, that even when all racism has long since died out, people will still go on about it all the time.

Perhaps it's prevalent in soon countries but in the uk, it's not a major issue. Nobody really hates someone because of their race or colour anymore....that generation is dying out.

Umm then WTF is posted here

Are you saying that Tommy Stormee Raggs and even Star etc aren't from the Uk ?

I think HT smacked it on the head, the UK just changed it to resentment, it is still Racist as hell.

Who do I hate because of their colour?

I said I agree with HT that it is not hate, it is resentment

and everyone that is not English

veya_victaous wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:

Who do I hate because of their colour?

I said I agree with HT that it is not hate, it is resentment

and everyone that is not English

Are you suggesting that only English people are white or that non-white people can't be English? Eddie said "race" or "colour".

the whole race/color thing is why you are racist.
why does it matter 'just not english' and you act like they are different...
the Irish for example so clearly not color as they are whiter.

veya_victaous wrote:the whole race/color thing is why you are racist.
why does it matter 'just not english' and you act like they are different...
the Irish for example so clearly not color as they are whiter.

I didn't mention the English - you did. You implied that English people are always white though. I did mention that I didn't like the IRA, but perhaps you should think I should love terrorists and murderers like you do.

You need to address your own obsessive hatred of Brits before you point the finger Veya.

Anyway, we've been through this a dozen times or more. There sure are some repetitive men on this forum ...

Raggamuffin wrote:

veya_victaous wrote:the whole race/color thing is why you are racist.
why does it matter 'just not english' and you act like they are different...
the Irish for example so clearly not color as they are whiter.

I didn't mention the English - you did. You implied that English people are always white though. I did mention that I didn't like the IRA, but perhaps you should think I should love terrorists and murderers like you do.

You need to address your own obsessive hatred of Brits before you point the finger Veya.

Anyway, we've been through this a dozen times or more. There sure are some repetitive men on this forum ...

I never mentioned color as to think in those terms is Racists.

It is YOU that made the RACIST link between color and nationality.

Honestly Raggs, You guys are so racist that you don’t even understand how offensive you are to most not brits, you go "I’m not racist, because Racist statement that highlights how deeply ingrained the racist mindset is into your psyche"


Do you Support the British military? Do you Think the UK should give back the Trillions of Pounds to the people it stole from?
 I know the answer is no, SO YES you clearly DO SUPPORT TERRORIST and some of the most evil people to have lived in the past 1000 years. Even the Original Conquest of Ireland was far more brutal with far more innocent murdered by English soldiers than the IRA murdered people.

veya_victaous wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:

I didn't mention the English - you did. You implied that English people are always white though. I did mention that I didn't like the IRA, but perhaps you should think I should love terrorists and murderers like you do.

You need to address your own obsessive hatred of Brits before you point the finger Veya.

Anyway, we've been through this a dozen times or more. There sure are some repetitive men on this forum ...

I never mentioned color as to think in those terms is Racists.

It is YOU that made the RACIST link between color and nationality.

Honestly Raggs, You guys are so racist that you don’t even understand how offensive you are to most not brits, you go "I’m not racist, because Racist statement that highlights how deeply ingrained the racist mindset is into your psyche"


Do you Support the British military? Do you Think the UK should give back the Trillions of Pounds to the people it stole from?
 I know the answer is no, SO YES you clearly DO SUPPORT TERRORIST and some of the most evil people to have lived in the past 1000 years. Even the Original Conquest of Ireland was far more brutal with far more innocent murdered by English soldiers than the IRA murdered people.

You were replying to eddie's post which did mention race and colour though, and you suddenly dragged me into it for some bizarre reason.

Listen, you support a terrorist organisation which targeted English people and murdered them in cold blood, and that makes you scum in my eyes. All your ranting and blathering on about racism counts for nothing. You're right at the bottom of the ditch when it comes to the "moral high ground", so you know where you can go - don't you?

Raggamuffin wrote:

veya_victaous wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:

I didn't mention the English - you did. You implied that English people are always white though. I did mention that I didn't like the IRA, but perhaps you should think I should love terrorists and murderers like you do.

You need to address your own obsessive hatred of Brits before you point the finger Veya.

Anyway, we've been through this a dozen times or more. There sure are some repetitive men on this forum ...

I never mentioned color as to think in those terms is Racists.

It is YOU that made the RACIST link between color and nationality.

Honestly Raggs, You guys are so racist that you don’t even understand how offensive you are to most not brits, you go "I’m not racist, because Racist statement that highlights how deeply ingrained the racist mindset is into your psyche"


Do you Support the British military? Do you Think the UK should give back the Trillions of Pounds to the people it stole from?
 I know the answer is no, SO YES you clearly DO SUPPORT TERRORIST and some of the most evil people to have lived in the past 1000 years. Even the Original Conquest of Ireland was far more brutal with far more innocent murdered by English soldiers than the IRA murdered people.

You were replying to eddie's post which did mention race and colour though, and you suddenly dragged me into it for some bizarre reason.

Listen, you support a terrorist organisation which targeted English people and murdered them in cold blood, and that makes you scum in my eyes. All your ranting and blathering on about racism counts for nothing. You're right at the bottom of the ditch when it comes to the "moral high ground", so you know where you can go - don't you?

Eddie  said there is no racists in the UK... clearly from the posts of members here including yourself there is... so


And We all know that the Bolded part is the Part that matters to you as you have show MULTIPULE times you don’t care if the victims are not Brits, so THAT alone makes you Racist, stop acting like a dimwit and just accept you are racism is ingrained into the very fibre of your personal identity AND you are Proud of it, at least stormee admits it.



Again Do you support he British Military? Then you support a terrorist organisation that murdered people in cold blood for far less reason than the IRA. Most of the World feels the same about the British Military Brits feel about the IRA. Actually worse since the British Military was the Aggressor.

veya_victaous wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:

You were replying to eddie's post which did mention race and colour though, and you suddenly dragged me into it for some bizarre reason.

Listen, you support a terrorist organisation which targeted English people and murdered them in cold blood, and that makes you scum in my eyes. All your ranting and blathering on about racism counts for nothing. You're right at the bottom of the ditch when it comes to the "moral high ground", so you know where you can go - don't you?

Eddie  said there is no racists in the UK... clearly from the posts of members here including yourself there is... so


And We all know that the Bolded part is the Part that matters to you as you have show MULTIPULE times you don’t care if the victims are not Brits, so THAT alone makes you Racist, stop acting like a dimwit and just accept you are racism is ingrained into the very fibre of your personal identity AND you are Proud of it, at least stormee admits it.



Again Do you support he British Military? Then you support a terrorist organisation that murdered people in cold blood for far less reason than the IRA. Most of the World feels the same about the British Military Brits feel about the IRA. Actually worse since the British Military was the Aggressor.

If you want to argue with eddie about racism, do so and leave me out of it. I've managed to ignore you for a couple of weeks ever since you proclaimed your support for the IRA. Let's be clear about this - I despise you - you're a racist who hates white Brits and English people and who would like to see them blown up and murdered just because they're British. You're nothing but a preacher of hatred.

If you ever visit the UK, you should be reported as a security risk to the country and deported immediately.

Now fuck off - you're scum.

Raggamuffin wrote:

Ben_Reilly wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:

I can only speak for myself, and to an extent for the UK. We have equality laws, and we have laws to prevent hate crimes or speech. We do not distinguish between racism against non-white people and racism against white people - not legally anyway, and I think that helps. I don't know what more can be done, and I think that obsessing about every little perceived slight makes things worse.

I actually don't think that people learn that much from history - they just say that a new situation is different to the old one. If people want to be evil, talking about history won't make a difference anyway.

Sure it will. Good people are more powerful when they're better informed.

The U.S. also has no legal distinction between discrimination against white and against non-whites: http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/02/09/10362607-white-firefighters-awarded-25-million-in-discrimination-case

You have this "white privilege" thing going on over there though, and this idea that non-white people can't be racist against white people. I think that's asking for trouble.

Re history, if you're basically telling one group that they're victims because of their skin colour and history, and another group that they're perpetrators because they happen to be the same colour as those who did bad things in the past, you'll never move on.

We don't teach history that way. We teach people about slavery, Jim Crow laws, segregation, KKK murder sprees, etc. We don't tell today's black people that they are victims of anything other than what racism they themselves experience. We don't tell white people they're evil because they're white.

Every major anti-racism organization in the U.S. also condemns anti-white racism. You can find a whole section about black separatism and Nation of Islam bigotry on the SPLC site, for example: https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/extremist-files/ideology/black-separatist https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/extremist-files/group/nation-islam

White privilege is actually a thing -- white people have more advantages in the U.S. to this day by virtue of nothing more than skin color -- so yes, we have that thing going on over here. Very few people actually say non-whites can't have bigoted attitudes toward whites, but people will argue that it's impossible for non-whites to be racist in the U.S. in the sense that white people do not experience an in-general discriminatory society like non-whites do.

Raggamuffin wrote:

veya_victaous wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:

You were replying to eddie's post which did mention race and colour though, and you suddenly dragged me into it for some bizarre reason.

Listen, you support a terrorist organisation which targeted English people and murdered them in cold blood, and that makes you scum in my eyes. All your ranting and blathering on about racism counts for nothing. You're right at the bottom of the ditch when it comes to the "moral high ground", so you know where you can go - don't you?

Eddie  said there is no racists in the UK... clearly from the posts of members here including yourself there is... so


And We all know that the Bolded part is the Part that matters to you as you have show MULTIPULE times you don’t care if the victims are not Brits, so THAT alone makes you Racist, stop acting like a dimwit and just accept you are racism is ingrained into the very fibre of your personal identity AND you are Proud of it, at least stormee admits it.



Again Do you support he British Military? Then you support a terrorist organisation that murdered people in cold blood for far less reason than the IRA. Most of the World feels the same about the British Military Brits feel about the IRA. Actually worse since the British Military was the Aggressor.

If you want to argue with eddie about racism, do so and leave me out of it. I've managed to ignore you for a couple of weeks ever since you proclaimed your support for the IRA. Let's be clear about this - I despise you - you're a racist who hates white Brits and English people and who would like to see them blown up and murdered just because they're British. You're nothing but a preacher of hatred.

If you ever visit the UK, you should be reported as a security risk to the country and deported immediately.

Now fuck off - you're scum.

Unlike You I have never suggested that the IRA is good, Just that they are AS EVIL as the British. And IF as you say I think that Brits are evil then obvious IF i think the IRA is the same then I also think they are evil     logic raggs I know you struggle with it

You are the one that supports robbing and murdering people because of their race or refugee status. You stated you'd vote for Hitler if it was given as a option in the next election

Veya, so according to you the British Army is evil?

I spent 20 odd years in it, my son 22years.

So we are both evil?
Glad to say when i was in Ireland i "slotted" 3 IRA members, given the chance i'd have put a few more away! I supose you put money in the collection boxes for "our brothers in Ireland" scum, like the rest of 'em.

PS, why do you have such a "down" on the British?

Every chance you get you have to say something nasty about us, Your the most racist scumbag on this forum.

Raggamuffin wrote:

veya_victaous wrote:

Eddie  said there is no racists in the UK... clearly from the posts of members here including yourself there is... so


And We all know that the Bolded part is the Part that matters to you as you have show MULTIPULE times you don’t care if the victims are not Brits, so THAT alone makes you Racist, stop acting like a dimwit and just accept you are racism is ingrained into the very fibre of your personal identity AND you are Proud of it, at least stormee admits it.



Again Do you support he British Military? Then you support a terrorist organisation that murdered people in cold blood for far less reason than the IRA. Most of the World feels the same about the British Military Brits feel about the IRA. Actually worse since the British Military was the Aggressor.

If you want to argue with eddie about racism, do so and leave me out of it. I've managed to ignore you for a couple of weeks ever since you proclaimed your support for the IRA. Let's be clear about this - I despise you - you're a racist who hates white Brits and English people and who would like to see them blown up and murdered just because they're British. You're nothing but a preacher of hatred.

If you ever visit the UK, you should be reported as a security risk to the country and deported immediately.

Now fuck off - you're scum.

Oh dear the supposed follower of Christ showing her true calling

That of hate

You are so ignorant its beyond belief, because you are so easily led by hate, not reason

Someone like you is so utterly clueless that you are born into a society that is formed based on a white middle class society

It caters for only a select few and you fail to see this because you are for all intents and purposes colour blind and completely racist

Its people like you that are completely pessimistic. You see no good in others but only wish to bring others down as if that som how makes you feel better.

Well let me let you into a secret, it doesn't, all it does is make you even more bitter, because you simple cannot be happy for others

That is your first and foremost failing, you are so resentful of others

nicko wrote:PS,   why do you have such a "down"  on the British?

Every chance you get you have to say something nasty about us,    Your the most racist scumbag on this forum.

Well you must have something to be guilty about
I said 'JUST as evil'

as stated in some of the religious threads the world is not fucking binary everything is a perspective, from billions of people around the world perspective the British are evil based on their actions.
no point in trying to deny that obvious fact.

But if you want to simplistic about it ....
yeah, people that agree to kill people for money are evil.

Veya, your ignorance is astounding, your understanding of the world is confined to the bubble of hate you live in!

nicko wrote:Veya, your ignorance is astounding,  your understanding of the world is confined to the bubble of hate you live in!

Yes and yours is a simplistic Comic Strip where the goodies and baddies are on different teams.

veya_victaous wrote:

eddie wrote:I think, that even when all racism has long since died out, people will still go on about it all the time.

Perhaps it's prevalent in soon countries but in the uk, it's not a major issue. Nobody really hates someone because of their race or colour anymore....that generation is dying out.

Umm then WTF is posted here

Are you saying that Tommy Stormee Raggs and even Star etc aren't from the Uk ?

I think HT smacked it on the head, the UK just changed it to resentment, it is still Racist as hell.

I said it's not a major issue, as it is in the USA, for example.
That's what I meant actually

eddie wrote:

veya_victaous wrote:



Umm then WTF is posted here

Are you saying that Tommy Stormee Raggs and even Star etc aren't from the Uk ?

I think HT smacked it on the head, the UK just changed it to resentment, it is still Racist as hell.

I said it's not a major issue, as it is in the USA, for example.
That's what I meant actually

38,506 racially or religiously motivated crimes took place in the UK over the past 12 months, according to official stats.

@lex wrote:

eddie wrote:

veya_victaous wrote:



Umm then WTF is posted here

Are you saying that Tommy Stormee Raggs and even Star etc aren't from the Uk ?

I think HT smacked it on the head, the UK just changed it to resentment, it is still Racist as hell.

I said it's not a major issue, as it is in the USA, for example.
That's what I meant actually

38,506 racially or religiously motivated crimes took place in the UK  over the past 12 months, according  to official stats.

Wow, the U.S. only had 5,479 in 2014 ...

Alex was that white on black crime?

Ben; be aware that was is actually reported and recorded as race crime may differ between the US and UK. Just saying.

I think that it is dangerous to undermine racism and pretend it isn't a problem. Eds you say everyone is a little bit racist as though it makes it ok. But there are extremes. Everyone being what you call 'a little bit racist' does not dismiss the fact thay some are incredibly racist and pose a problem for our nation.

Eilzel wrote:Ben; be aware that was is actually reported and recorded as race crime may differ between the US and UK. Just saying.

I think that it is dangerous to undermine racism and pretend it isn't a problem. Eds you say everyone is a little bit racist as though it makes it ok. But there are extremes. Everyone being what you call 'a little bit racist' does not dismiss the fact thay some are incredibly racist and pose a problem for our nation.

I think it's a matter of distinguishing between stereotyping -- the generalizing that everyone does about other groups of people they don't belong to, whether they know it or not -- and actual feelings of superiority to those other groups.

Lots of white people who don't feel superior to black people have generalized black people as being more athletic, more musically inclined, etc. While attitudes like those are uninformed, they're not really harmful. The harm comes when people decide they're okay with black people being athletic or musically talented, but not okay with them, say, being the U.S. president, because they believe white people should run society.

Don't some black people do their own stereotyping of white people?

Just out of interest, who talks about "black music"? Is it white people or black people themselves? Who decided that soul music was the domain of black people?

Raggamuffin wrote:Don't some black people do their own stereotyping of white people?

Just out of interest, who talks about "black music"? Is it white people or black people themselves? Who decided that soul music was the domain of black people?

Everybody stereotypes everybody else of other groups, to a certain extent. What you find, though, is that white stereotypes are much less pervasive among minorities in societies where whites are the majority. They get many, many more and much more varied stories about what being white means than whites get about what being black means.

I don't like to say that anybody owns any kind of music -- it's for the enjoyment of everyone -- but we call it "black music" when it arises from the black community. Of course, music evolves like everything else, and nobody really invented any genre -- they innovated upon and experimented with existing forms.

Even the music of someone like Philip Glass is a reaction to what came before it.

eddie wrote:Alex was that white on black crime?

lol that's Racsit Eddie

veya_victaous wrote:

eddie wrote:Alex was that white on black crime?

lol that's Racsit Eddie

Well everytime the word "black" is said, its a racist thang

eddie wrote:

veya_victaous wrote:

eddie wrote:Alex was that white on black crime?

lol that's Racsit Eddie

Well everytime the word "black" is said, its a racist thang

no, when confronted with a stats of Racial motivated crime your immediate response was to try and create a racial divide (pure skin colour too) between British citizens committing crimes.
that is inherently Racist and Far more of an issue for racial harmony than calling someone a mean name.

veya_victaous wrote:

eddie wrote:

veya_victaous wrote:

eddie wrote:Alex was that white on black crime?

lol that's Racsit Eddie

Well everytime the word "black" is said, its a racist thang

no, when confronted with a stats of Racial motivated crime your immediate response was to try and create a racial divide (pure skin colour too) between British citizens committing crimes.
that is inherently Racist and Far more of an issue for racial harmony than calling someone a mean name.

Veya I know you think that I'm some closet racist (and you're the only one who thinks it) but I asked that question for a specific reason which was relevant to something I was getting at.
Trouble is, I really actually can't remember what it was as I've lost track of the thread since this afternoon!

Eddie You are not in the closet  
You openly display racist tendancies, you are not a hate filled racist but that doesn't make you not racist.

your point was something along the lines of "it's less cause we divided it by the skin colour" cause there is no other reason to bring up skin colour.

Eddie, your NOT racist, anyone who thinks you are is a nutter!

eddie wrote:Alex was that white on black crime?

Good question. There's no breakdown of those figures - which come from the Daily Mirror. It could mean anything - it could mean racially-motivated crimes against white people. It could mean religiously-motivated crimes against Christians.

I'm not sure how anyone can discuss racially-motivated crimes without mentioning race really. There's some serious lack of logic on this forum at times.

Raggamuffin wrote:

Ben_Reilly wrote:

Okay, but sweeping it under the rug does more harm than good. Things are still unequal for many groups in many countries, and that inequality stems from the past.

It's also important for people to understand the breadth and depth of what has been referred to as "man's blind indifference to his fellow man." It is important to study the evil that people are capable of doing to one another, so that it can be avoided or prevented in the future.

I can only speak for myself, and to an extent for the UK. We have equality laws, and we have laws to prevent hate crimes or speech. We do not distinguish between racism against non-white people and racism against white people - not legally anyway, and I think that helps. I don't know what more can be done, and I think that obsessing about every little perceived slight makes things worse.

I actually don't think that people learn that much from history - they just say that a new situation is different to the old one. If people want to be evil, talking about history won't make a difference anyway.

I have a friend who lives in Mechanicsville, USA.   Her workplace is hell, she tells me, as she's targeted daily in  a sexist and ageist way to the extent her life is made a misery.  When I suggested that she take it to the company's HR, and sue the company for harrassment she told me that in the US, at least where she lives, this is not an option.  Here in the UK, nobody would dare do this, they would be sued to the hilt for bullying and harrassment.   I was really suprised about this, as I presumed the US would be way ahead of that kind of thing in the workplace.   

One thing I do know, is that here in Britain, you dare not be racist, sexist, homophobic in the workplace, you'd simply lose your job.

veya_victaous wrote:

nicko wrote:Veya, your ignorance is astounding,  your understanding of the world is confined to the bubble of hate you live in!

Yes and yours is a simplistic Comic Strip where the goodies and baddies are on different teams.

 No country is whiter than white (scuse the pun).

I'm sure nearly every single nation  in the world has been guilty of some kind of atrocity over the years.  

It's mostly down to human nature and our capacity to commit atrocities on each other for differences in skin colour, sex, religion, beliefs, ideas, inventions, healing, the list is endless.   I just wish that we'd all wake up and realise that we should respect each more and exercise more tolerance.  But I don't think this will ever happen.   We're all fundamentally tribal, and this means there will always be strife.   I guess this is how we survived way back, slaughtering the weak, fighting for food and land, etc.  Nothing changes.

Exactly HT
 
and Understanding that we should realise that neither is good or bad, both are just violent hairless apes.... like Nicko 

nicko wrote:Eddie,   your NOT racist,   anyone who thinks you are is a nutter!

I know that Nicko, lol
Veya cannot fathom me out yet