Apology

First topic message reminder :

I have over the last couple of days behaved like a total cow to everyone in general and some in particular. I would like to apologize. I have been off my pain meds as I thought I was able to cope - I was wrong, I was blocking pain mentally instead which leaves me in a foul temper, Again I apologize.

sphinx wrote:It not bloody surprising when every tom dick and harry has been trying to make it fail.

Do you have a problem with the basic premise?

It is patently ridiculous that I need to have 4 separate teams of civil servants servicing my claims - that I have to answer the same questions on 4 different forms to get the money I am entitled to, that I have to report any changes to 4 different people.

I get that it is not perfect - nothing ever is in planning stage.  What makes the difference is if the people affected work with those trying to get it right or decide to make it as difficult as possible for them.

At the moment if I work 10 hours a week I get to keep just £10 of it and get snowed under with paperwork - under universal credit I keep £56 of it and have one form.  But apparently I am much better off where I am now.

When people whose job it is to deal with people with disabilities say things like that, yes I do. Plus, its the IT that has failed and cost a fortune, because it was not worked out properly, and although IDS was told it would not work, he insisted on carrying on. Now it is in the biggest mess possible and has cost us a fortune. You might be better off, it seems that people who have studied it on behalf of other people with disabilities, disagree, and have given the reasons why, instances where they would be worse off and made suggestions as to how it could be made better, which have been ignored.

Joy Division wrote:

sphinx wrote:It not bloody surprising when every tom dick and harry has been trying to make it fail.

Do you have a problem with the basic premise?

It is patently ridiculous that I need to have 4 separate teams of civil servants servicing my claims - that I have to answer the same questions on 4 different forms to get the money I am entitled to, that I have to report any changes to 4 different people.

I get that it is not perfect - nothing ever is in planning stage.  What makes the difference is if the people affected work with those trying to get it right or decide to make it as difficult as possible for them.

At the moment if I work 10 hours a week I get to keep just £10 of it and get snowed under with paperwork - under universal credit I keep £56 of it and have one form.  But apparently I am much better off where I am now.

....no it would not Sphinx, having seperate departments is more of a safeguard to ensure each department does not get the claims mixed up...and ensures the right people get what they are due.

Yeah thats why all the private sector does things that way.....oh wait they dont because they have found out it is easier to get one thing right when everything is concentrated on it than keep several things straight.

You run a business JD - do have 4 departments to pay 4 different amounts into your employees wages so the wages claims dont get mixed up or is that the most stupid way of paying employees you have ever heard of?

You see having several department does not ensure mix ups dont happen it ensures they do happen as I have had to deal with multiple times. As soon as one department screws up the reason the screw up is copied to all the other departments and when you try to sort the screw up out each department checks with the others and finds they have also acted on the screw up so they act on it again. HB gets a zero wrong on a change of circumstances - tells CT, ESA, and CTC which change their records to show the mistake as well. Go to HB prove their mistake they then check with CT, ESA, CTC which all send the mistaken figure because it was given them by HB in the first place and HB declare that they are being told the mistaken figure is right by the others when it was them who gave the others the wrong figure which is given back to them.

The fact is that when there is one record in one place with one person dealing with it there is far less to go wrong, and if something does go wrong it is far easier to correct. It is also considerably cheaper to run.

But only if the system is worked out properly in the first place and doesn't leave some of the most vunerable worse off.

Sassy wrote:

sphinx wrote:It not bloody surprising when every tom dick and harry has been trying to make it fail.

Do you have a problem with the basic premise?

It is patently ridiculous that I need to have 4 separate teams of civil servants servicing my claims - that I have to answer the same questions on 4 different forms to get the money I am entitled to, that I have to report any changes to 4 different people.

I get that it is not perfect - nothing ever is in planning stage.  What makes the difference is if the people affected work with those trying to get it right or decide to make it as difficult as possible for them.

At the moment if I work 10 hours a week I get to keep just £10 of it and get snowed under with paperwork - under universal credit I keep £56 of it and have one form.  But apparently I am much better off where I am now.

When people whose job it is to deal with people with disabilities say things like that, yes I do.   Plus, its the IT that has failed and cost a fortune, because it was not worked out properly, and although IDS was told it would not work, he insisted on carrying on.   Now it is in the biggest mess possible and has cost us a fortune.   You might be better off, it seems that people who have studied it on behalf of other people with disabilities, disagree, and have given the reasons why, instances where they would be worse off and made suggestions as to how it could be made better, which have been ignored.

So the problem is the amounts some people would be getting?

Now lets try again - if you come up with a formula for how much each person is going to get and you are happy with that total amount does it make more sense to pay each person the amount they are going to get as one single whole payment or break it up into 4 or 6 or even more different amounts paid at different times by different people.

Sassy wrote:But only if the system is worked out properly in the first place and doesn't leave some of the most vunerable worse off.

Agreed.

Now what is more likely to get a system worked out properly - responding with "thats a great idea but this bit and that bit are not quite because they leave this group and that group worse off so can you fix it without causing problems somewhere else" or "OH MY GOD EVERYONES GOING TO STARVE AND GET EVICTED AND WONT BE ABLE TO COPE BECAUSE THEY WILL HAVE TO DO SOME OF THE SAME THINGS THAT WORKING PEOPLE HAVE TO DO"

sphinx wrote:

Sassy wrote:

When people whose job it is to deal with people with disabilities say things like that, yes I do.   Plus, its the IT that has failed and cost a fortune, because it was not worked out properly, and although IDS was told it would not work, he insisted on carrying on.   Now it is in the biggest mess possible and has cost us a fortune.   You might be better off, it seems that people who have studied it on behalf of other people with disabilities, disagree, and have given the reasons why, instances where they would be worse off and made suggestions as to how it could be made better, which have been ignored.

So the problem is the amounts some people would be getting?

Now lets try again - if you come up with a formula for how much each person is going to get and you are happy with that total amount does it make more sense to pay each person the amount they are going to get as one single whole payment or break it up into 4 or 6 or even more different amounts paid at different times by different people.

How do they propose to manage the time frame if UC was ever brought it?

People are currently on fortnightly payments, surely there would be a delay in payments during the transition period to the monthly payment?

GO TO A FOOD BANK IN THE MEANTIME?

Catman wrote:

sphinx wrote:

So the problem is the amounts some people would be getting?

Now lets try again - if you come up with a formula for how much each person is going to get and you are happy with that total amount does it make more sense to pay each person the amount they are going to get as one single whole payment or break it up into 4 or 6 or even more different amounts paid at different times by different people.

How do they propose to manage the time frame if UC was ever brought it?

People are currently on fortnightly payments, surely there would be a delay in payments during the transition period to the monthly payment?

God phil - how on earth does anyone ever get off benefits with that hurdle to overcome.

The last time there was a transition from one schedule of payments to another they bought in automatic bridging loans for people who wanted them - those going from weekly to fortnightly or whatever could tick a box which saw their last weekly payment be of the value of a fortnightly one with the extra taken out at source over a number of weeks at a couple of pound a week. Amazingly enough this worked and despite predictions to the contrary the country did not collapse.

The fact is at the moment when someone starts work they go from fortnightly payments to monthly payments and have to do it without a bridge loan and people manage this. If they have more than one period of unemployment they have to do this more than once. Although it might cause some short term issues for some people during the changeover the fact is that once the changeover is made and people are used to it people will be able to go from benefits to work with far less financial difficulty.

sphinx wrote:

Catman wrote:

How do they propose to manage the time frame if UC was ever brought it?

People are currently on fortnightly payments, surely there would be a delay in payments during the transition period to the monthly payment?

God phil - how on earth does anyone ever get off benefits with that hurdle to overcome.

The last time there was a transition from one schedule of payments to another they bought in automatic bridging loans for people who wanted them - those going from weekly to fortnightly or whatever could tick a box which saw their last weekly payment be of the value of a fortnightly one with the extra taken out at source over a number of weeks at a couple of pound a week.  Amazingly enough this worked and despite predictions to the contrary the country did not collapse.

The fact is at the moment when someone starts work they go from fortnightly payments to monthly payments and have to do it without a bridge loan and people manage this.  If they have more than one period of unemployment they have to do this more than once.  Although it might cause some short term issues for some people during the changeover the fact is that once the changeover is made and people are used to it people will be able to go from benefits to work with far less financial difficulty.

 ://?roflmao?/: ://?roflmao?/: ://?roflmao?/:  And you think that they will do that the next time around, if it was ever allowed to happen of course!

Catman wrote:

sphinx wrote:

God phil - how on earth does anyone ever get off benefits with that hurdle to overcome.

The last time there was a transition from one schedule of payments to another they bought in automatic bridging loans for people who wanted them - those going from weekly to fortnightly or whatever could tick a box which saw their last weekly payment be of the value of a fortnightly one with the extra taken out at source over a number of weeks at a couple of pound a week.  Amazingly enough this worked and despite predictions to the contrary the country did not collapse.

The fact is at the moment when someone starts work they go from fortnightly payments to monthly payments and have to do it without a bridge loan and people manage this.  If they have more than one period of unemployment they have to do this more than once.  Although it might cause some short term issues for some people during the changeover the fact is that once the changeover is made and people are used to it people will be able to go from benefits to work with far less financial difficulty.

 ://?roflmao?/: ://?roflmao?/: ://?roflmao?/:   And you think that they will do that the next time around, if it was ever allowed to happen of course!

Why not? It worked before.

sphinx wrote:

Catman wrote:

 ://?roflmao?/: ://?roflmao?/: ://?roflmao?/:   And you think that they will do that the next time around, if it was ever allowed to happen of course!

Why not?  It worked before.

I just don't think that they will care as much as they did then as they do now!

A slightly begrudging welcome to these boards though Sphinx, there is a little bit of water under the bridge but i for one am enjoying your input!

 :D 

Catman wrote:

sphinx wrote:

Why not?  It worked before.

I just don't think that they will care as much as they did then as they do now!

A slightly begrudging welcome to these boards though Sphinx, there is a little bit of water under the bridge but i for one am enjoying your input!

 :D 

Hey I still love cats - am owned by 3 now.

At the moment if you are going from benefits to starting a job, you can get a Job Grant if you have been out of work for 6 months or more

It can help tide you over till your first wage

£100 for single people and couples without children
£250 for lone parents and couples with children

And you can get an extended payment of housing benefit too.

sphinx wrote:

Catman wrote:

I just don't think that they will care as much as they did then as they do now!

A slightly begrudging welcome to these boards though Sphinx, there is a little bit of water under the bridge but i for one am enjoying your input!

 :D 

Hey I still love cats - am owned by 3 now.

  

Costa wrote:At the moment if you are going from benefits to starting a job, you can get a Job Grant if you have been out of work for 6 months or more

It can help tide you over till your first wage

£100 for single people and couples without children
£250 for lone parents and couples with children

And you can get an extended payment of housing benefit too.

Its that 6 months or more that is nasty - friends daughter just out of college had to sign on for a couple of months, then it worked out that she got one weeks JSA with a 3 week wait for her first wage payment and there was bugger all she could claim to help her. This current system really does punish those who do the right thing.

sphinx wrote:

Costa wrote:At the moment if you are going from benefits to starting a job, you can get a Job Grant if you have been out of work for 6 months or more

It can help tide you over till your first wage

£100 for single people and couples without children
£250 for lone parents and couples with children

And you can get an extended payment of housing benefit too.

Its that 6 months or more that is nasty - friends daughter just out of college had to sign on for a couple of months, then it worked out that she got one weeks JSA with a 3 week wait for her first wage payment and there was bugger all she could claim to help her.  This current system really does punish those who do the right thing.

But the transition from contribution based ESA to income based ESA...There is a delay in processing that benefit, and people are left for up to sixth months with no money at all.

We have been helping out a neighbour of ours (and another neighbour has as well has been helping out)...We have been taking the odd frozen ready meal around during that time, it's been sorted out now though.

Catman wrote:

sphinx wrote:

Its that 6 months or more that is nasty - friends daughter just out of college had to sign on for a couple of months, then it worked out that she got one weeks JSA with a 3 week wait for her first wage payment and there was bugger all she could claim to help her.  This current system really does punish those who do the right thing.

But the transition from contribution based ESA to income based ESA...There is a delay in processing that benefit, and people are left for up to sixth months with no money at all.

We have been helping out a neighbour of ours (and another neighbour has as well has been helping out)...We have been taking the odd frozen ready meal around during that time, it's been sorted out now though.

There have always been delays for some people - have had delays of months myself in the past.

Anyway time for bed - night everyone

sphinx wrote:

Catman wrote:

But the transition from contribution based ESA to income based ESA...There is a delay in processing that benefit, and people are left for up to sixth months with no money at all.

We have been helping out a neighbour of ours (and another neighbour has as well has been helping out)...We have been taking the odd frozen ready meal around during that time, it's been sorted out now though.

There have always been delays for some people - have had delays of months myself in the past.

There has always been a massive delay for everyone when they come off contribution based ESA to income based ESA...Just another coalition tactic to try and kill off a few people   

The only ones that ever have survived this modern day holocaust are the one's that have friends, family members, and friendly neighbours where we have all known each other for years.

What about those that are completely alone and don't have that kind of support network around them?

You can only go to a food bank for three times Max!

Around here the food bank is miles away, many would be too weak to even get anywhere after a sustained period of starvation.

As Doug just said to me 'I feel stressed' ...He was stressed before due to the symptoms of his illness..But that ATOS medical in January is really doing his head in.

OK...So he is in the support group, he suffers from a terminal illness with no cure in sight..So why do these RW barbarians require him to attend this bloody medical that is doing his head in?

It would cause rage in the most sane of individuals.

They have asked for his consultants notes..The consultant has confirmed how bad he is...So why the need for a medical then?

ATOS have bothered to go to a trained consultant in HIV...He's fucking ill and already in the support group after their rigid assessments...He is still fucking ill as his consultant has said and even worse in fact...Yet he still has to attend one of their fucking assessment medicals!

The consultant went over it with us, when Doug was seen a few weeks ago!

These private ATOS monkey parasites want to run it past a fucking points scoring system, just to make sure, and see if they can cut of a few points to maximise their profits!

Catman wrote:ATOS have bothered to go to a trained consultant in HIV...He's fucking ill and already in the support group after their rigid assessments...He is still fucking ill as his consultant has said and even worse in fact...Yet he still has to attend one of their fucking assessment medicals!

The consultant went over it with us, when Doug was seen a few weeks ago!

These private ATOS monkey parasites want to run it past a fucking points scoring system, just to make sure, and see if they can cut of a few points to maximise their profits!

It's farcical isn't it Phil, how often does Doug have to attend? Do they think somehow he's going to magically get better?