Taking the meaning of racism too far.

Raggamuffin wrote:I just can't get my head round this "white privilege" shit either.

I mean - at what point are white people in the US told that they're privileged because they're white? When they're little kids? How are they told this? Do their parents say to them - you have to remember that you were lucky to be born white and that it makes you privileged?

I think it's pathetic.

Original Quill wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:I just can't get my head round this "white privilege" shit either.

I mean - at what point are white people in the US told that they're privileged because they're white? When they're little kids? How are they told this? Do their parents say to them - you have to remember that you were lucky to be born white and that it makes you privileged?

I think it's pathetic.

White privilege is not a "telling".  It is a fact.  It's not a judgmental discussion, it's simply something that needs to be corrected.

Some 400-years ago someone went around and passed out 'value' to people.  Only the black people got none, because they were slaves or generally disliked.  Over the centuries, "value' has been passed around, mother to daughter, father to son, and only the blacks continue to be left out.

Now that we've realized how arbitrary and wrong that was, we simply want to belatedly pass out some 'value' to the black people.  The white people in favor of this today are good people and are not being told they are bad or even responsible.  They are simply being asked to help.

What is the 'value' of which I speak?  It's education, nutrition, proper care for babies, employment--every element of life that blacks were once denied, and presently have none of to pass on to their children.  Value is the opportunity to participate fairly in society and all of it's rewards.  We are simply going about correcting present effects of past discrimination.

Raggamuffin wrote:

Original Quill wrote:

You totally miss the point.  No one is apologizing, nor is this a blame game.  The issue is remedial action.

Today there exists present effects of prior discrimination.  Those need to be addressed.  That is what is at issue.  

Fussing with blame and/or apologies is a waste of time.

It is about blame - we all know this. The "remedial action" stems from trying to make people guilty for being born white.

Original Quill wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:

It is about blame - we all know this. The "remedial action" stems from trying to make people guilty for being born white.

Unfortunately, all that is only going on in your head...and the heads of people like you.  You know, some people just naturally have guilty consciences.  They take everything personally, and feel that everything and everyone in the world is out to criticize them.  Such people were probably victims of judgmental parents, I don't know.

Sometimes we are just digging a ditch to improve the world.  It has nothing to do with you...save, unless you want to pitch in.  It's a concerted effort by people who want to do the right thing, to correct present effects of past discrimination.

Raggamuffin wrote:

Original Quill wrote:

White privilege is not a "telling".  It is a fact.  It's not a judgmental discussion, it's simply something that needs to be corrected.

Some 400-years ago someone went around and passed out 'value' to people.  Only the black people got none, because they were slaves or generally disliked.  Over the centuries, "value' has been passed around, mother to daughter, father to son, and only the blacks continue to be left out.

Now that we've realized how arbitrary and wrong that was, we simply want to belatedly pass out some 'value' to the black people.  The white people in favor of this today are good people and are not being told they are bad or even responsible.  They are simply being asked to help.

What is the 'value' of which I speak?  It's education, nutrition, proper care for babies, employment--every element of life that blacks were once denied, and presently have none of to pass on to their children.  Value is the opportunity to participate fairly in society and all of it's rewards.  We are simply going about correcting present effects of past discrimination.

And what do you tell white people who are homeless, who are jobless, and who are ill? Do you tell them how fucking lucky they are because they're white and all the other stuff doesn't matter?

Raggamuffin wrote:

Original Quill wrote:

Unfortunately, all that is only going on in your head...and the heads of people like you.  You know, some people just naturally have guilty consciences.  They take everything personally, and feel that everything and everyone in the world is out to criticize them.  Such people were probably victims of judgmental parents, I don't know.

Sometimes we are just digging a ditch to improve the world.  It has nothing to do with you...save, unless you want to pitch in.  It's a concerted effort by people who want to do the right thing, to correct present effects of past discrimination.

It's not in my head, it's all over the internet, and it's all over your speeches on here.

Original Quill wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:

And what do you tell white people who are homeless, who are jobless, and who are ill? Do you tell them how fucking lucky they are because they're white and all the other stuff doesn't matter?

Ah yes, the old mirror-image argument of conservatives.  A fair share, even of the remedial effort, must go to the white man.

I have no problem with that.  The overriding principle is, let's not let anyone go without.  As Bertolt Brecht said in his play, Three-Penny Opera. First you feed the face, then talk right or wrong!

Raggamuffin wrote:Re the gender of the two students, they seem to be two girls. I recognise the one on the right in the photo and the video, but the one on the left looks nothing like the girl who is speaking in the video, so I'm still a bit confused.

http://www.wisn.com/news/photo-of-uw-whitewater-students-in-blackface-causes-controversy/38071068

Syl wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:Re the gender of the two students, they seem to be two girls. I recognise the one on the right in the photo and the video, but the one on the left looks nothing like the girl who is speaking in the video, so I'm still a bit confused.

http://www.wisn.com/news/photo-of-uw-whitewater-students-in-blackface-causes-controversy/38071068

That was confusing to me to when I saw the video. Is the girl in the middle doing the talking for the boy on the left then?
The girl on the right was obviously posing with the face mask on....the girl in the video is definitely not the other person in the video though.

Didge wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:The enormous fuss about this is completely absurd.

There are comments about lessons being learned, and that these two girls need an "educational course". The onus seems to be on them to express remorse and "educate" themselves about the dangers of putting black face masks on. Why should they express remorse?

Maybe the ones who need educating are the ones who are sticking their beaks in and telling people they shouldn't put black face packs on and take photos of themselves. Of course they have a black student union where the members think a lesson should be learned. Well yes, the lesson is that they should stop being so paranoid about face packs which happen to be black.

http://www.tmj4.com/news/local-news/uw-whitewater-students-say-blackface-photo-was-really-facial-treatment

Points to show why the above is utterly and completely born from a lack of knowledge on the history of discrimination against African Americans

The first flaw in the above is how it downplays the problem of racism. Failing to recognize that both students were not only naive but fail to evcen comprehend that it could upset some people.

So why could it easily upset some African Americans?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackface#United_States

Yes there has been an on going problem for centuries where African Americans have been stereotyped and insulted this way

So just because they did not intent to be racist, ignorance oin how it can easily offend due to hundreds of years of this abuse up to the present, means they need to understand and learn from this

Maybe its about time that you8 stop makingf poor excuses all the time on just about every thread you on Racismn. Yoi always look for ways to downplay racism, ignore racism, blame the victims etc. Such racial discrimination is wrong, I suggest you start understanding this

HoratioTarr wrote:

Syl wrote:

Well that was Quills point earlier on, but I disagree.
I think there has been racism here (and still is) not to the extent as in the USA, and not specifically  to Black people, but Asians especially are definitely still discriminated against.....and in turn they discriminate against not only Whites but people who are from a different background, creed, culture to themselves.

The worst racist incidents I have personally  seen have been between Pakistanis and Indians in my area.

I've got West Indian friends and they hate Asians.  They call them paki's and consider them dirty.  White people don't have a monopoly on racism.

aspca4ever wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:PS. You're not Lucian are you?

Officially Certifiable = TROLL

HT wrote:I've got West Indian friends and they hate Asians. They call them paki's and consider them dirty. White people don't have a monopoly on racism.

Raggamuffin wrote:Maybe the girl in the middle took the photo?

Original Quill wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:

It's not in my head, it's all over the internet, and it's all over your speeches on here.

You hear what you want to hear.  You, apparantly, want to hear bad things about a fundamentally good, remedial effort.

Lord Foul wrote:

Syl wrote:

I don't understand half of the above post...it doesn't make sense.
The other half is wrong too.

I scan through this thread and see this...

didge playing some sort of munchausen game of chess that only he is party too.....
and then I see that crazy list of "micro agressions" (WTF?)

PC gone irretrievably insane

I mean there you are in class, struggling with a science or math problem...and you cant ask your asian mate to help you out cos its racist?????????????????????

A new student turns up, and presumably you have to wait for "one of his own" to ask the obvious question...and hope that ear wigging will get you the answer??


FFS

clearly the system they have demands that mr white guy simply ignores everyone else.....OH...wait...thats racist

perhaps he'd best just resort to "small talk".....oh wait thats demeaning


typical lefty bullshite, putting the white guy in an impossible "catch 22" situation where all possible options can level the term racist at him

here is the budding fruition of the "frankfurt school" lefties......

Syl wrote:

Lord Foul wrote:

I scan through this thread and see this...

didge playing some sort of munchausen game of chess that only he is party too.....
and then I see that crazy list of "micro agressions" (WTF?)

PC gone irretrievably insane

I mean there you are in class, struggling with a science or math problem...and you cant ask your asian mate to help you out cos its racist?????????????????????

A new student turns up, and presumably you have to wait for "one of his own" to ask the obvious question...and hope that ear wigging will get you the answer??


FFS

clearly the system they have demands that mr white guy simply ignores everyone else.....OH...wait...thats racist

perhaps he'd best just resort to "small talk".....oh wait thats demeaning


typical lefty bullshite, putting the white guy in an impossible "catch 22" situation where all possible options can level the term racist at him

here is the budding fruition of the "frankfurt school" lefties......

I love this line, (the one highlighted in black)....the best and most original one on the thread imo.  

Original Quill wrote:

Didge wrote:

Points to show why the above is utterly and completely born from a lack of knowledge on the history of discrimination against African Americans

The first flaw in the above is how it downplays the problem of racism. Failing to recognize that both students were not only naive but fail to evcen comprehend that it could upset some people.

So why could it easily upset some African Americans?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackface#United_States

Yes there has been an on going problem for centuries where African Americans have been stereotyped and insulted this way

So just because they did not intent to be racist, ignorance oin how it can easily offend due to hundreds of years of this abuse up to the present, means they need to understand and learn from this

Maybe its about time that you8 stop makingf poor excuses all the time on just about every thread you on Racismn. Yoi always look for ways to downplay racism, ignore racism, blame the victims etc. Such racial discrimination is wrong, I suggest you start understanding this

Xlnt post, and bang on the mark.

Didge wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:The enormous fuss about this is completely absurd.

There are comments about lessons being learned, and that these two girls need an "educational course". The onus seems to be on them to express remorse and "educate" themselves about the dangers of putting black face masks on. Why should they express remorse?

Maybe the ones who need educating are the ones who are sticking their beaks in and telling people they shouldn't put black face packs on and take photos of themselves. Of course they have a black student union where the members think a lesson should be learned. Well yes, the lesson is that they should stop being so paranoid about face packs which happen to be black.

http://www.tmj4.com/news/local-news/uw-whitewater-students-say-blackface-photo-was-really-facial-treatment

Points to show why the above is utterly and completely born from a lack of knowledge on the history of discrimination against African Americans

The first flaw in the above is how it downplays the problem of racism. Failing to recognize that both students were not only naive but fail to evcen comprehend that it could upset some people.

So why could it easily upset some African Americans?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackface#United_States

Yes there has been an on going problem for centuries where African Americans have been stereotyped and insulted this way

So just because they did not intent to be racist, ignorance oin how it can easily offend due to hundreds of years of this abuse up to the present, means they need to understand and learn from this

Maybe its about time that you8 stop makingf poor excuses all the time on just about every thread you on Racismn. Yoi always look for ways to downplay racism, ignore racism, blame the victims etc. Such racial discrimination is wrong, I suggest you start understanding this

Original Quill wrote:

HT wrote:I've got West Indian friends and they hate Asians.  They call them paki's and consider them dirty.  White people don't have a monopoly on racism.

That's prejudice.  Racism is different in that it is a historical, long-term attitude, rubbed strenuously into the fabric of a culture.

One is merely dismissive.  The other is passionately pursued.

Didge wrote:

Original Quill wrote:

Xlnt post, and bang on the mark.

Hi Quill


I see now they have been reduced to just talking between themselves, which is evident again, they have nothing to refute our points

Syl wrote:

Original Quill wrote:

That's prejudice.  Racism is different in that it is a historical, long-term attitude, rubbed strenuously into the fabric of a culture.

One is merely dismissive.  The other is passionately pursued.

Racism to me is looking down on someone else because of their colour or origin.
I don't think it has to be steeped in history, many people are racist who have never picked a history book up in their lives, they just see a difference and hate it.

Syl wrote:

Didge wrote:

Hi Quill


I see now they have been reduced to just talking between themselves, which is evident again, they have nothing to refute our points

Not true. I have just logged on, am re-reading through the thread, and answering various posts as I come to them.

Didge wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:The enormous fuss about this is completely absurd.

There are comments about lessons being learned, and that these two girls need an "educational course". The onus seems to be on them to express remorse and "educate" themselves about the dangers of putting black face masks on. Why should they express remorse?

Maybe the ones who need educating are the ones who are sticking their beaks in and telling people they shouldn't put black face packs on and take photos of themselves. Of course they have a black student union where the members think a lesson should be learned. Well yes, the lesson is that they should stop being so paranoid about face packs which happen to be black.

http://www.tmj4.com/news/local-news/uw-whitewater-students-say-blackface-photo-was-really-facial-treatment

Points to show why the above is utterly and completely born from a lack of knowledge on the history of discrimination against African Americans

The first flaw in the above is how it downplays the problem of racism. Failing to recognize that both students were not only naive but fail to evcen comprehend that it could upset some people.

So why could it easily upset some African Americans?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackface#United_States

Yes there has been an on going problem for centuries where African Americans have been stereotyped and insulted this way

So just because they did not intent to be racist, ignorance oin how it can easily offend due to hundreds of years of this abuse up to the present, means they need to understand and learn from this

Maybe its about time that you8 stop makingf poor excuses all the time on just about every thread you on Racismn. Yoi always look for ways to downplay racism, ignore racism, blame the victims etc. Such racial discrimination is wrong, I suggest you start understanding this

Syl wrote:

Didge wrote:

Hi Quill


I see now they have been reduced to just talking between themselves, which is evident again, they have nothing to refute our points

Not true. I have just logged on, am re-reading through the thread, and answering various posts as I come to them.

Raggamuffin wrote:

Original Quill wrote:

You hear what you want to hear.  You, apparantly, want to hear bad things about a fundamentally good, remedial effort.

What do you think the phrase "white tears" means?

Raggamuffin wrote:

Syl wrote:
Not true. I have just logged on, am re-reading through the thread, and answering various posts as I come to them.

I told Didge last night that I had no further interest in discussing anything with him, so I don't know why he's expecting me to reply to anything he says.

Original Quill wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:

What do you think the phrase "white tears" means?

I have no idea.  I've never heard it, so it's escaped me.

Didge wrote:

Syl wrote:
Not true. I have just logged on, am re-reading through the thread, and answering various posts as I come to them.

You have had 3 days of which to refine your points

Of which they do not hold validity

Syl wrote:

Didge wrote:

You have had 3 days of which to refine your points

Of which they do not hold validity

I have been out a lot.

And my posts do hold validy, mainly because I am talking about the subject in the OP and not dredging up centuries old slights to try to prove they were at worse racist at best stupid.

Syl wrote:

Original Quill wrote:

That's prejudice.  Racism is different in that it is a historical, long-term attitude, rubbed strenuously into the fabric of a culture.

One is merely dismissive.  The other is passionately pursued.

Racism to me is looking down on someone else because of their colour or origin.
I don't think it has to be steeped in history, many people are racist who have never picked a history book up in their lives, they just see a difference and hate it.

Raggamuffin wrote:

Original Quill wrote:

I have no idea.  I've never heard it, so it's escaped me.

You never heard it? I'm surprised you haven't come across that in your research.

Original Quill wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:

You never heard it? I'm surprised you haven't come across that in your research.

That has to do with you.  I've not heard of it.  "White tears" sounds like a shampoo for blond women.

Didge wrote:

Syl wrote:
I have been out a lot.

And my posts do hold validy, mainly because I am talking about the subject in the OP and not dredging up centuries old slights to try to prove they were at worse racist at best stupid.

Copout again

Look as flattering as it is to talk about me, that has no relevance to the debate

All you and Rags are doing is infantile, posting between each other in the hope others will get bored and drop out, as you both know you have no valid points here

The most telling and ill conceived point you just made and yet again you are another poster guilty of this, trying to downplay racism claiming incorrectly its only something from the past.

I suggest you learn

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackface#United_States

T

Raggamuffin wrote:

Syl wrote:
Not true. I have just logged on, am re-reading through the thread, and answering various posts as I come to them.

I told Didge last night that I had no further interest in discussing anything with him, so I don't know why he's expecting me to reply to anything he says.

Syl wrote:

Didge wrote:

Copout again

Look as flattering as it is to talk about me, that has no relevance to the debate

All you and Rags are doing is infantile, posting between each other in the hope others will get bored and drop out, as you both know you have no valid points here

The most telling and ill conceived point you just made and yet again you are another poster guilty of this, trying to downplay racism claiming incorrectly its only something from the past.

I suggest you learn

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackface#United_States

T

I have come to realise that you don't actually respond to what people post (unless they agree with you) ....I said the other night you are on repeat rewind, translate that to mean you answer a person not on what they actually say but on what you want to hear so you can insult and deride them....and you don't budge from that stance...just grind away...on and on.

More pitiful excuses doing everything possible to avoid discussing the points
Your views on me again prove you want to champion now being a victim, by centering on this gibberish and thus lead ther debate in another direction.
I have news for you on that.

Its horseshit and its not going to happen

Throughout this thread I have addressed racism, the different way people perceive it, and the way this thread has developed from the two points of view.....mainly those who see the OP being connected with racism and those who see two kids laughing at their funny face masks which just happen to be black.

Yet more excuses

You don't read those posts though...in fact you get confused as to who is posting them, (Rags wrote a post earlier and you replied to me) what you do excel at is blowing your own trumpet as if everything you say is right and everyone else is wrong.....you need a reality check.

Code:

NO WONDER RACISM AGAINST FORUNUZ EXISTS

Syl wrote:

Didge wrote:

You have had 3 days of which to refine your points

Of which they do not hold validity

I have been out a lot.

And my posts do hold validy, mainly because I am talking about the subject in the OP and not dredging up centuries old slights to try to prove they were at worse racist at best stupid.

Original Quill wrote:

HT wrote:I've got West Indian friends and they hate Asians.  They call them paki's and consider them dirty.  White people don't have a monopoly on racism.

That's prejudice.  Racism is different in that it is a historical, long-term attitude, rubbed strenuously into the fabric of a culture.

One is merely dismissive.  The other is passionately pursued.

Stormee wrote:When forunuz from overseas come into your country, a different colour from you, speak a different language, have filthy habits, try to change things which are steeped in your own history to suit their own agendas, take our housing, flood our GP surgeries to the extent it is not easy to get appointment, makeup OUR school places, impregnate our white women, run drugs, rape children, perform horrendous private area operations on children and young girls, operate prostitution businesses, do jobs cheap take our jobs, take over nice areas and turn them into ghettos just like from whence they came,
Commit violence in general and many other atrocitiz including beheading our military personnel,

Code:

NO WONDER RACISM AGAINST FORUNUZ EXISTS

THEY ARE ALSO RACIST AGAINST US WHITES, THE HAND THAT FEEDS THEM

IT WILL NOT CHANGE UNTIL WE HAVE A CLEAR OUT

Just look at the USA, we are heading the same way.

LOOK AROUND YOU, THERE IS A MULTITUDE OF THEM NOT WORKING, YOU AND I ARE PAYING THEIR BILLS.

THIS IS ENGLAND UK.

Here are some reasons, add more if you dare.

Original Quill wrote:

Syl wrote:

Racism to me is looking down on someone else because of their colour or origin.
I don't think it has to be steeped in history, many people are racist who have never picked a history book up in their lives, they just see a difference and hate it.

Prejudice is the attitude, or 'pre' judging someone or something.  It is a single act.

Anything that has a suffix of 'ism' is generally describing a widely held theme.  Capitalism?  Communism?  Pluralism?  Even 'tourism' or 'tribalism' are widely distributed phenomena.

Racism is therefore the broadly distributed idea that races can be distinguished from one another: a class of people can be identified and discussed.  But more...it is the idea that the class of people exist in hierarchical relation to one another, one somehow better or superior than the other.  Racism is a kind of plural judgment of the worth of a certain class of individuals.

In order to held and believed, it must be cultural.  It must be a part of the language, and the values, beliefs and symbols of a culture.  In order to achieve that status it must be infused into the fabric of the culture.  Therefore, racism is inevitably historical.  You can't have a social theme that was just invented yesterday...although with TV advertising, they do try.  Lol.

HoratioTarr wrote:

Original Quill wrote:

That's prejudice.  Racism is different in that it is a historical, long-term attitude, rubbed strenuously into the fabric of a culture.

One is merely dismissive.  The other is passionately pursued.

So by that yardstick, all whites are racist?   The Rotherham rapists, who considered those white girls scum and sluts, not even worthy of being part of the human race, were merely prejudiced?

HoratioTarr wrote:

Original Quill wrote:

That's prejudice.  Racism is different in that it is a historical, long-term attitude, rubbed strenuously into the fabric of a culture.

One is merely dismissive.  The other is passionately pursued.

So by that yardstick, all whites are racist?   The Rotherham rapists, who considered those white girls scum and sluts, not even worthy of being part of the human race, were merely prejudiced?

HoratioTarr wrote:

Original Quill wrote:

That's prejudice.  Racism is different in that it is a historical, long-term attitude, rubbed strenuously into the fabric of a culture.

One is merely dismissive.  The other is passionately pursued.

So by that yardstick, all whites are racist?   The Rotherham rapists, who considered those white girls scum and sluts, not even worthy of being part of the human race, were merely prejudiced?

Syl wrote:

Original Quill wrote:

Prejudice is the attitude, or 'pre' judging someone or something.  It is a single act.

Anything that has a suffix of 'ism' is generally describing a widely held theme.  Capitalism?  Communism?  Pluralism?  Even 'tourism' or 'tribalism' are widely distributed phenomena.

Racism is therefore the broadly distributed idea that races can be distinguished from one another: a class of people can be identified and discussed.  But more...it is the idea that the class of people exist in hierarchical relation to one another, one somehow better or superior than the other.  Racism is a kind of plural judgment of the worth of a certain class of individuals.

In order to held and believed, it must be cultural.  It must be a part of the language, and the values, beliefs and symbols of a culture.  In order to achieve that status it must be infused into the fabric of the culture.  Therefore, racism is inevitably historical.  You can't have a social theme that was just invented yesterday...although with TV advertising, they do try.  Lol.

I agree that prejudging and racism are two completely different things Quill. We all pre judge to a certain extent...it's human nature, and it's how we get through life. If someone looks like a mad axe murderer we will act accordingly....we have pre judged them solely by the way they look or act.

But Horatio described what to me sounded like racism....as in he had friends who hated Asians. They call them names and look down on them.

That to me IS racism not prejudism,
Could be the difference in your language and our landuage is causing confusion though.

eddie wrote:Everyone is a little bit racist.
Or perhaps we could say we are all a little tribe like"
Which translates to: everyone is a little bit racist

eddie wrote:Everyone is a little bit racist.
Or perhaps we could say we are all a little tribe like"
Which translates to: everyone is a little bit racist

Original Quill wrote:

Syl wrote:
I have been out a lot.

And my posts do hold validy, mainly because I am talking about the subject in the OP and not dredging up centuries old slights to try to prove they were at worse racist at best stupid.

I think we pretty much all agree that the OP raises a rather frivolous situation.  But it has provoked a pretty good discussion from an analytical viewpoint.