To the Woman Behind Me in Line at the Grocery Store

First topic message reminder :

Dear woman behind me in line at the grocery store,
You don't know me. You have no clue what my life has been like since October 1, 2013. You have no clue that my family has gone through the wringer. You have no clue that we have faced unbelievable hardship. You have no clue we have been humiliated, humbled, destitute.
You have no clue I have cried more days than not; that I fight against bitterness taking control of my heart. You have no clue that my husband's pride was shattered. You have no clue my kids have had the worries of an adult on their shoulders. You have no clue their innocence was snatched from them for no good reason. You know none of this.
What you do know is I tried to buy my kids some food and that the EBT machine was down so I couldn't buy that food. I didn't have any cash or my debit card with me. I only had my SNAP card. All you heard was me saying "No, don't hold it for me. My kids are hungry now and I have no other way of paying for this." You didn't judge me. You didn't snarl "Maybe you should have less kids." You didn't say "Well, get a job and learn to support yourself." You didn't look away in embarrassment or shame for me. You didn't make any assumptions at all.
What you did was you paid that $17.38 grocery bill for us. You gave my kids bananas, yogurt, apple juice, cheese sticks, and a peach ice tea for me; a rare treat and splurge. You let me hug you and promise through my tears that I WILL pay this forward. I WILL pay someone's grocery bill for them. That $17.38 may not have been a lot for you, but it was priceless to us. In the car my kids couldn't stop gushing about you; our "angel in disguise." They prayed for you. They prayed you would be blessed. You restored some of our lost faith. One simple and small action changed our lives. You probably have forgotten about us by now, but we haven't forgotten about you. You will forever be a part of us even though we don't even know your name.
You have no clue how grateful and embarrassed I am that we pay for all our food with SNAP. We eat well thanks to the government. I love that. I love that the government makes sure my kids are cared for. It is one less worry for us. I also struggle with pride and embarrassment. I defiantly tell people we are on SNAP. Daring them to judge us.
Only those closest to us know why we are on SNAP. They know my husband is a hard worker who was laid off after 17 years in a management position with his former company. They know we were moved from our home to a new state only to be left homeless since the house we had came with the job he lost. Only those closest to us know my husband works part time while looking tirelessly for more; that he has submitted more applications than he has received interviews for. Too many jobs are only offering part time work anymore. It is not easy for a 40-something year old to find a job that will support his family of five kids.
You know none of this but you didn't let that stop you from being compassionate and generous to someone you have never met.
To the woman behind me at the grocery store, you have no idea how much we appreciate you. You have no idea the impact you had on my kids. You have no idea how incredibly thankful I am for you. Your action may have been small, but to us it was monumental. Thank you.
Thank you for not judging us. Thank you for giving my kids a snack when they were quite hungry. Thank you. Just thank you.
Forever,
Andrea, the woman in front of you at the grocery store with the cart full of kids who are no longer hungry
This post first appeared on Andrea's blog truestoriesofamidwestyankee.wordpress.com


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/andrea-gardner/to-the-woman-behind-me-in_b_5082769.html?ncid=fcbklnkushpmg00000063




The more people in the world who are this kind, the better it will be.

Tommy Monk wrote:Irrelevant... housing benefit only pays the maximum one bed rate for a single person in private rented accommodation and it has been the same for years and years!

It is only in social housing, where rent costs are much cheaper anyway and much the same as each other regardless of size, where the policy of paying a spare room subsidy was brought in to bring it into line with those in private rdnted sector not beibg able to get larger places paid for and to encourage people who lived in places too big for them to move to smaller places more suitable and free up the larger places for needy families.

He lived in a 2 bed house and his rent was paid when he was made redundant.....sorry if that sticks in your craw but those are the facts.

It wasn't social housing btw....it was privately rented.
If you would like to google anything else and come back wiith more contradictions about what I have posted....feel free.

But the max he would have got would be the max paid for a one bed place!

If his rent was inside the maximum payable for a one bed flat then he would have got that paid... that was my point... it must have been cheap!

Either it was very cheap, or they're not enforcing the rules. That wouldn't surprise me actually.

Tommy Monk wrote:
But the max he would have got would be the max paid for a one bed place!

If his rent was inside the maximum payable for a one bed flat then he would have got that paid... that was my point... it must have been cheap!

Well I said posts ago that his rent was "well under £500".....I think thats enough personal info about his affairs dont you? Are you expecting the exact amount to be quoted? hows about I ask him for his old rent book to photo copy and send to you??

Raggamuffin wrote:Either it was very cheap, or they're not enforcing the rules. That wouldn't surprise me actually.

Are you comparing prices with Southern ones too Rags?

Facts are the sort of house he was in at that time was probably average rent for the area.

Syl wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:Either it was very cheap, or they're not enforcing the rules. That wouldn't surprise me actually.

Are you comparing prices with Southern ones too Rags?

Facts are  the sort of house he was in at that time was probably average rent for the area.

No Syl. I looked at the figures that Tommy posted. A one-bedroom flat is around £442 per month for that area. Perhaps his house was cheaper than that.

Tommy Monk wrote:
But the max he would have got would be the max paid for a one bed place!

If his rent was inside the maximum payable for a one bed flat then he would have got that paid... that was my point... it must have been cheap!

Your point was that he would not have been entitled to stay in a 2 bed house and have his rent paid.
You appear not to have taken rents in your area and rents in this area into consideration initially.

Happy to see you have moved the goalposts now you realise your facts were wrong.

Raggamuffin wrote:

Syl wrote:

Are you comparing prices with Southern ones too Rags?

Facts are  the sort of house he was in at that time was probably average rent for the area.

No Syl. I looked at the figures that Tommy posted. A one-bedroom flat is around £442 per month for that area. Perhaps his house was cheaper than that.

I didn't bother to look at his figures because I know he was entitled to the housing benefit when he was out of work.
Yes his rent was probably around or under that amount then.

Syl has just said it was much less than £500 a month so would have probably fallen inside the max amount payable for a single person at that time!


And probably so cheap because it wasn't well insulated or decent economic heating system installed... hence the expensive heating bills!!!


But again the jobcentre wouldn't have much sympathy... they would say that your landlord needed to improve things and you should be on his case to get things done!!!

Jsa shouldn't be going on subsidising landlords lack of investment on proper insulation/heating/double glazing etc...





This is the sort of stuff the jobcentre staff come out with... whatever you say to them... they have heard it all before and more... and they have an answer for it all!!!

Syl wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:

No Syl. I looked at the figures that Tommy posted. A one-bedroom flat is around £442 per month for that area. Perhaps his house was cheaper than that.

I didn't bother to look at his figures because I know he was entitled to the housing benefit when he was out of work.
Yes his rent was probably around or under that amount then.

That might explain it then. I don't think anyone is trying to catch you out, it's just that I've wondered before if they're strict about the actual number of bedrooms, or if they're just bothered about the total cost of the rent.

Raggamuffin wrote:

Syl wrote:

I didn't bother to look at his figures because I know he was entitled to the housing benefit when he was out of work.
Yes his rent was probably around or under that amount then.

That might explain it then. I don't think anyone is trying to catch you out, it's just that I've wondered before if they're strict about the actual number of bedrooms, or if they're just bothered about the total cost of the rent.

I think Tommy has disected every word I have written and tried to find loopholes to prove me wrong.

Facts are no one can be proved wrong if they are speaking honestly.

They have maximum amounts payable for your particular circumstances and compared to rents in the larger surrounding area...


If you are a single person then they say that they will only give you enough for a relatively basic comparatively priced one bed flat in your surrounding area... if you have a larger or more expensive one bed place then they will still only pay the max allowed for a single person.


If you have a larger place that is as cheap as what they will pay for a single person then you will get that amount paid.



The spare room subsidy was brought in for social housing tenants because their rents, even for 3 or 4 bed houses, are overall still much cheaper than what is payable for a single person... so many single people end up staying on in larger places after they no longer have the need for them... which is unfair on privately rented housing benefit claimants who usually struggle enough just to get a place with as many bedrooms as they need... and market prices prevent them getting larger places because rents go up and up the more bedrooms etc...


Compared to housing association/council places...


One bed flat

Private in my area at the moment...

£875-950 A month..

Max housing benefit paid...

£690 month

Housing associations...

About £400 month.



2 bed flat or house

Private - about £1000-1100

Housing association - about £400-500


3 bed

Private about £1300-1400

Housing association about £450-550



As you can see... it is near on impossible for anyone single and unemployed to afford a one bedroom flat round here... or to afford one if working either!!!


But a council tenant in a 3 or 4 bed house would still be covered by the housing benefit rate set for a single person at £690... this is why the spare room subsidy was put in place...

Tommy Monk wrote:They have maximum amounts payable for your particular circumstances and compared to rents in the larger surrounding area...


If you are a single person then they say that they will only give you enough for a relatively basic comparatively priced one bed flat in your surrounding area... if you have a larger or more expensive one bed place then they will still only pay the max allowed for a single person.


If you have a larger place that is as cheap as what they will pay for a single person then you will get that amount paid.



The spare room subsidy was brought in for social housing tenants because their rents, even for 3 or 4 bed houses, are overall still much cheaper than what is payable for a single person... so many single people end up staying on in larger places after they no longer have the need for them... which is unfair on privately rented housing benefit claimants who usually struggle enough just to get a place with as many bedrooms as they need... and market prices prevent them getting larger places because rents go up and up the more bedrooms etc...


Compared to housing association/council places...


One bed flat

Private in my area at the moment...

£875-950 A month..

Max housing benefit paid...

£690 month

Housing associations...

About £400 month.



2 bed flat or house

Private - about £1000-1100

Housing association - about £400-500


3 bed

Private about £1300-1400

Housing association about £450-550



As you can see... it is near on impossible for anyone single and unemployed to afford a one bedroom flat round here... or to afford one if working either!!!


But a council tenant in a 3 or 4 bed house would still be covered by the housing benefit rate set for a single person at £690... this is why the spare room subsidy was put in place...

Yes. The disparity between social rents and private rents has often been overlooked when the bedroom tax has been discussed. It's as if people think that if you're in social housing you're entitled to be treated better than anyone else. We often hear about how "unfair" the bedroom tax is, but nobody ever mentions private rents where someone would generally not be allowed to get housing benefit for a larger property which they didn't need, unless it was actually very cheap because it's of low quality.

Exactly!


People are only given large social housing places with multiple bedrooms because of their need at the time... they should be made to move to smaller places when they no longer need them...

Syl wrote:

Tommy Monk wrote:Jsa is only supposed to provide enough money for gas and electricity for one person... not to heat a whoke large house designed for more than one with just one person living there.

Do you think that if someone had a butler or a cook etc then jsa should be enough to carry on paying for them too?

Or if someone has a car on finance and repayments to make and insurance costs etc...?

Should jsa pay for that?

Of course not!!!

When you're working, you can spend YOUR money on whatever you want and live the standard of living that YOU are paying for... if you aren't working but living on your own money then again, you can spend it however you want for your lifestyle...


But if you are not working and want to claim benefits... you have to live the basic lifestyle that the basic amount of benefit money allows you to do!!!


Jsa is only going to provide enough for you to cover your  basic needs.

It will not provide for you to heat a large house with only you living there... it will not pay for your credit card bills for your large flat screen TV or ps4 or holiday in the sun etc...


So if you cut that £30 gas elec figure you gave in half,  then that leaves enough for everything else plus enough food.


That is what the jobcentre would expect... and also what my mum would say!!!


Also... housing benefit would not cover the rent for anything larger and more expensive than a one bedroom flat...

You are wrong on the last point, and most others to be honest....he did get housing benefit for the house he was in, which was not a large house it was a 2 up 2 down Victorian terrace.
He obviously did live a basic life style, so you and your mum need to open your minds up a bit and hear what other peoples experiences are.

Thankfully he is now in a good job and is now living the life he chooses, funded by no one but himself.

Maybe the  one in eight people living in the N/W who cannot afford to heat their homes and eat properly are paying the staff too much.

From having quite a bit of experience of dealing with housing benefit for different friends a few years back (it may have changed so I am saying this was a while back), housing benefit is not paid long term for an accommodation that is deemed "too big" for a claimant.
Tommy is right in that respect in my experience; your son would've been expected to move to a smaller accommodation OR he'd have only been paid the equivalent of a one-bedroom accommodation and been expected to "top up the rest of the rent himself".

eddie wrote:

Syl wrote:

You are wrong on the last point, and most others to be honest....he did get housing benefit for the house he was in, which was not a large house it was a 2 up 2 down Victorian terrace.
He obviously did live a basic life style, so you and your mum need to open your minds up a bit and hear what other peoples experiences are.

Thankfully he is now in a good job and is now living the life he chooses, funded by no one but himself.

Maybe the  one in eight people living in the N/W who cannot afford to heat their homes and eat properly are paying the staff too much.

From having quite a bit of experience of dealing with housing benefit for different friends a few years back (it may have changed so I am saying this was a while back), housing benefit is not paid long term for an accommodation that is deemed "too big" for a claimant.
Tommy is right in that respect in my experience; your son would've  been expected to move to a smaller accommodation OR he'd have only been paid the equivalent of a one-bedroom accommodation and been expected to "top up the rest of the rent himself".

Maybe it depends on what a local council would deem to be "long term"?
Either that or my sons 2 up 2 down was not considered 'too big' for his needs at that time.

Tommy was wrong in trying to claim that "the housing benefit would not cover the rent for anything larger and more expensive than a one bedroom flat"
He was also wrong in his calculations of what household bills would be in a different part of the country....he may be right in calculating his own bills, perhaps he should have left it at that instead of thinking he knew everyone elses circumstances better than they did..

True eddie... if the place was more expensive than the maximum allowed one bed amount payable... but Syl has said that this 2 bed place was cheap enough to be fully covered by the one bed amount.


It is also possible to get the landlord to tell benefits office that one of the bedrooms is unavailable to the tenant as landlord is using for storage and is locked... therefore the 2 bed place is technically being rented as a one bed...


But you are right... and normally market rates will dictate that it would be impossible to get a two bedroom place that is cheap enough to be covered by the max payable one bed rate.


And as I said... this two bedroom place was probably only that cheap because it was badly insulated and or had poor and expensive central heating system... hence the high gas and electricity costs... but the job centre would say that they don't pay jsa to subsidise landlords lack of insulation etc... you should get him to sort it or move to a better place that doesnt have sub standard insulation or wear extra layers of clothing or suffer the extra expense yourself!!!


Also I think that unemployed people get an extra £100 or so round winter time to help cover extra fuel usage... I remember British gas telling me I had qualified for this extra payment once before... nothing to do with old peoples winter fuel bonus as I'm just over 40 now!


And if I remember rightly... if you are claiming jsa/esa etc, you have the right to contact suppliers and tell them and they have to make sure that they put you on the lowest and cheapest tarrif possible too!




But back to Syl's comment before about the 1 in 8 can't afford food and heating etc...


What else are they spending their money on besides food and gas/elec. ..?


They should be spending their money on the priority things of food and gas/elec first... and then telling us what else they can't afford to pay for!!!



I'll bet that people tell them to Piss off when they start listing their nice things they are paying for on credit cards and loans etc... their nice new clothes and flat screen TVs and cars and holidays etc and restaurant bills etc!!!

I wasn't wrong Syl... it wasn't more expensive than the amount allowed to be paid for a one bed flat so he got enough from the one bed flat allowance to fully cover the cheaper rent.


Normally market forces would dictate that a 2 bed place would be more than a one bed place.


He obviously had the place cheap... that is the only reason why it was covered... if the rent had been the same as other 2 bed places in the area then he would have only got the max one bed allowance and forced to make up the difference...


And before you try to tell me that all 2 bed places were that cheap... if so then housing benefit would have lowered the amounts for everyone...

I think Tommy believes everything he reads in the 'Mail' and watches 'Benefit street' type programmes to form his opinions.

Open your eyes and see how many normal families are cutting down on basics in order to afford to live without resorting to benefits.

Yes some people know how to screw the system and scrounge everything they can, most of the people I know don't.....maybe you are mixing with the wrong crowd.

Getting what you are entitled to is right and common sense... nothing wrong with that!!!

I pay shit loads into the system and get fuck all out when I'm working... so during the odd time I'm not working, last time due to illness, I will get everything I'm entitled to... That's what I pay in for!!!

Tommy Monk wrote:I wasn't wrong Syl... it wasn't more expensive than the amount allowed to be paid for a one bed flat so he got enough from the one bed flat allowance to fully cover the cheaper rent.


Normally market forces would dictate that a 2 bed place would be more than a one bed place.


He obviously had the place cheap... that is the only reason why it was covered... if the rent had been the same as other 2 bed places in the area then he would have only got the max one bed allowance and forced to make up the difference...


And before you try to tell me that all 2 bed places were that cheap... if so then housing benefit would have lowered the amounts for everyone...

See the difference between you and me Tommy is I'm not trying to pretend I know everything.
You were wrong in several of your statements. You were comparing your rent and conditions with rent and conditions in a completely different part of the country.

His house was in the same repair as other houses on the street...no better no worse, and I'm sure at that time that was the going rate for private landlords to rent their properties in that area....though most on that street were owned by the people who lived in them..

Tommy Monk wrote:Getting what you are entitled to is right and common sense... nothing wrong with that!!!

I pay shit loads into the system and get fuck all out when I'm working... so during the odd time I'm not working, last time due to illness,  I will get everything I'm entitled to... That's what I pay in for!!!

Getting benefits paid when you are sick or made redundant through no fault of your own is not what I mean when I said some people scrounge and screw the system.

I wasn't wrong on anything... the local housing benefit depts in any area will assess the local costs of rents and then set their maximum levels payable for each type of property.


In all areas there are more expensive parts and cheaper parts of town...


As a single person claiming a single persons rate of jsa... you will also be able to claim housing benefit... but you will only be able to get a maximum of what they pay as their designated one bed flat rate...


In some areas of the local town or region covered by this housing benefit dept, the rents will be more expensive than the max payable amount for your circumstances... in other parts, the rents may be a bit cheaper...


The fact remains that a single person can only get the maximum amount that has been set by the local housing benefit dept as what is needed to pay for a one bed flat...

You have already said that the rent for your sons place was well under £500 a month, and I have shown that the one bed rate is currently at around £440 a month... so if you say that all of his rent was covered by housing benefit then I can totally believe that if it was also no more than the max payable one bed rate at that time!!!


That is the general rule given...


Are you saying that he got more in housing benefit than the max one bed rate of housing benefit set to cover the rent of a one bed flat at that time?

I have said about 5 times that his rent was lower than £500....you have commented on it at least 3 times.
I have no idea what the rent on a one bedroom apartment would be....the subject never came up.

You were wrong in presuming a 2 bedroom house would be above the benefit housing cap....you were wrong in presuming elec/gas  needs would  be the same here as where you are.
You were wrong in assuming my son would have to pay some of his benefits to top up his rent allowance.

Wrong AND patronising, and not only to me either....read back.

With all the different story's I hear about benefits tiz a wonder any of the hoi polloi understand it.

I have over the last few years read and seen on the news where skint off the airplane or boat forun bleeding tribes have been given mega homez FREE from charges.

Look at Anjem Choudry, Abu Hamza and their ilk as an exampul.

Syl wrote:I have said about 5 times that his rent was lower than £500....you have commented on it at least 3 times.
I have no idea what the rent on a one bedroom apartment would be....the subject never came up.

You were wrong in presuming a 2 bedroom house would be above the benefit housing cap....you were wrong in presuming elec/gas  needs would  be the same here as where you are.
You were wrong in assuming my son would have to pay some of his benefits to top up his rent allowance.

Wrong AND patronising, and not only to me either....read back.

But it's still not clear if someone claiming housing benefit is allowed more than one bedroom Syl. I was speculating when I said that maybe they are if a two-bedroom house is less rent than the cap for a one-bedroom place. I can't really find any clarification on that. If they're not allowed to, then the rules must have been broken.

Tommy also had a good point when he said it would cost more to heat a two-bedroom house than a one-bedroom flat, especially if it's an old house with little insulation. He was working on the figures for one person with one bedroom, and a correspondingly smaller space generally.

Stormee wrote:With all the different story's I hear about benefits tiz a wonder any of the hoi polloi understand it.

I have over the last few years read and seen on the news where skint off the airplane or boat forun bleeding tribes have been given mega homez FREE from charges.

Look at Anjem Choudry, Abu Hamza and their ilk as an exampul.

Anjem Choudary is British - he was born here. Morally speaking, he shouldn't get any benefits IMO. Hamza was British too - at one point anyway.

Syl wrote:I have said about 5 times that his rent was lower than £500....you have commented on it at least 3 times.
I have no idea what the rent on a one bedroom apartment would be....the subject never came up.

You were wrong in presuming a 2 bedroom house would be above the benefit housing cap....you were wrong in presuming elec/gas  needs would  be the same here as where you are.
You were wrong in assuming my son would have to pay some of his benefits to top up his rent allowance.

Wrong AND patronising, and not only to me either....read back.

When my ex and I split up in Jan 2006 and I moved to Essex, I lived in a small two bedroom cottage, one decent size bedroom, one so small it was hard to get a single bed in.  It was £500 a month and my housing benefit paid it in full while I got myself back on my feet.   I think the way Tommy is going on is bloody insulting to all who have shared their stories about what actually has happened to them.

sassy wrote:

Syl wrote:I have said about 5 times that his rent was lower than £500....you have commented on it at least 3 times.
I have no idea what the rent on a one bedroom apartment would be....the subject never came up.

You were wrong in presuming a 2 bedroom house would be above the benefit housing cap....you were wrong in presuming elec/gas  needs would  be the same here as where you are.
You were wrong in assuming my son would have to pay some of his benefits to top up his rent allowance.

Wrong AND patronising, and not only to me either....read back.

When my ex and I split up in Jan 2006 and I moved to Essex, I lived in a small two bedroom cottage, one decent size bedroom, one so small it was hard to get a single bed in.  It was £500 a month and my housing benefit paid it in full while I got myself back on my feet.   I think the way Tommy is going on is bloody insulting to all who have shared their stories about what actually has happened to them.

Sassy. You insult people regularly. Tit for tat.

If ya don't like it, don't do it.

Stormee wrote:

sassy wrote:

When my ex and I split up in Jan 2006 and I moved to Essex, I lived in a small two bedroom cottage, one decent size bedroom, one so small it was hard to get a single bed in.  It was £500 a month and my housing benefit paid it in full while I got myself back on my feet.   I think the way Tommy is going on is bloody insulting to all who have shared their stories about what actually has happened to them.

Sassy. You insult people regularly. Tit for tat.

If ya don't like it, don't do it.

I tell them they are fools when they are fools BA, and will continue to do so.  I tell them when what they say is vile and racist and will continute to do so.  Your style of writing has come and gone quite a lot today hasn't it!

sassy wrote:

Stormee wrote:

Sassy. You insult people regularly. Tit for tat.

If ya don't like it, don't do it.

I tell them they are fools when they are fools BA, and will continue to do so.  I tell them when what they say is vile and racist and will continute to do so.  Your style of writing has come and gone quite a lot today hasn't it!

You're too intolerant and know-it-all. Tommy is discussing the issue quite properly, according to the Government information which is out there.

Syl wrote:I have said about 5 times that his rent was lower than £500....you have commented on it at least 3 times.
I have no idea what the rent on a one bedroom apartment would be....the subject never came up.

You were wrong in presuming a 2 bedroom house would be above the benefit housing cap....you were wrong in presuming elec/gas  needs would  be the same here as where you are.
You were wrong in assuming my son would have to pay some of his benefits to top up his rent allowance.

Wrong AND patronising, and not only to me either....read back.

I know you said his rent was much less than £500 a month... I said that for the housing benefit to pay enough to cover the whole amount of rent, as you said did happen, then it must have been cheap enough to have fallen within the maximum allowed payable housing benefit amount given to single people in that area!

I said that housing benefit would not cover larger and MORE EXPENSIVE places than their entitlement level allowed...

If his 2 bed place was a higher price than the maximum allowed for a single person then he would have still only got the max one bed flat rate paid to him, and expected to cover the rest of the rent himself.

He may have been lucky to manage to have a cheap enough 2 bed place to be covered by the one bed flat allowance... and an extra room to enjoy... but then he had the problem of higher costs each week in heating bills!!!


The fact remains that had he lived in a one bed flat as is expected then his heating costs would have been half the 30 quid you said, and then he would have had plenty more of his jsa money for food!!!


So well do able... as I originally said!!!


I take it you were only giving him £15 a week to cover this difference in extra gas/elec costs...!?


Because by your own figures... that was roughly all that he needed..?

Or was it much more..?

And for what exactly..?

sassy wrote:

Syl wrote:I have said about 5 times that his rent was lower than £500....you have commented on it at least 3 times.
I have no idea what the rent on a one bedroom apartment would be....the subject never came up.

You were wrong in presuming a 2 bedroom house would be above the benefit housing cap....you were wrong in presuming elec/gas  needs would  be the same here as where you are.
You were wrong in assuming my son would have to pay some of his benefits to top up his rent allowance.

Wrong AND patronising, and not only to me either....read back.

When my ex and I split up in Jan 2006 and I moved to Essex, I lived in a small two bedroom cottage, one decent size bedroom, one so small it was hard to get a single bed in.  It was £500 a month and my housing benefit paid it in full while I got myself back on my feet.   I think the way Tommy is going on is bloody insulting to all who have shared their stories about what actually has happened to them.

Where abouts was that then sassy?


You do realise that things have changed since labour got kicked out of govt since 2010 don't you?


Gone are the days under Labour when unemployed could claim up to £100,000 a year in benefits!!!


Things are much tougher now on unemployed and housing benefits...


I said earlier how that where I live the rents on one bed flats is around £900 a month while housing benefit only pays a maximum of £690 here...


Some local authorities are now saying that single people under 35 can only qualify for the shared house room rate now...



Tough at the moment isn't it...! ?


And I know you are quick to complain about the symptoms... but what is the cause..?


Labour started the mass immigration in 97 that has since consistently pushed up costs while holding down wage increases...!!!

Bumped for Syl and sassquatch. ..

Tommy Monk wrote:

Syl wrote:I have said about 5 times that his rent was lower than £500....you have commented on it at least 3 times.
I have no idea what the rent on a one bedroom apartment would be....the subject never came up.

You were wrong in presuming a 2 bedroom house would be above the benefit housing cap....you were wrong in presuming elec/gas  needs would  be the same here as where you are.
You were wrong in assuming my son would have to pay some of his benefits to top up his rent allowance.

Wrong AND patronising, and not only to me either....read back.

I know you said his rent was much less than £500 a month... I said that for the housing benefit to pay enough to cover the whole amount of rent, as you said did happen, then it must have been cheap enough to have fallen within the maximum allowed payable housing benefit  amount given to single people in that area!

I said that housing benefit would not cover larger and MORE EXPENSIVE places than their entitlement level allowed...

If his 2 bed place was a higher price than the maximum allowed for a single person then he would have still only got the max one bed flat rate paid to him, and expected to cover the rest of the rent himself.

He may have been lucky to manage to have a cheap enough 2 bed place to be covered by the one bed flat allowance... and an extra room to enjoy... but then he had the problem of higher costs each week in heating bills!!!


The fact remains that had he lived in a one bed flat as is expected then his heating costs would have been half the 30 quid you said, and then he would have had plenty more of his jsa money for food!!!


So well do able... as I originally said!!!


I take it you were only giving him £15 a week to cover this difference in extra gas/elec costs...!?


Because by your own figures... that was roughly all that he needed..?

Or was it much more..?

And for what exactly..?

As far as I am concerned you have moved the goalposts of your argument from "He would not be able to live in a 2 bedroom house on benefits"  and "his bills so came to so much so plenty to spare for food".....to begrudgingly backtracking on those points.

You presumed his rent would be comparable to rents in the South....you even googled local benefits in the North  to try to prove your points re benefit caps, which I have never disputed.

The housing benefit cap was never mentioned.....so obviously his two bedroom house fell under that.
It stands to reason that heating a bedsit or one bed apartment would be cheaper than heating a 2 bed house....IF he had used the heating in every room which he did not.

What we gave him to help him out when he was struggling is none of your business.....nosy bugger.

sassy wrote:

Syl wrote:I have said about 5 times that his rent was lower than £500....you have commented on it at least 3 times.
I have no idea what the rent on a one bedroom apartment would be....the subject never came up.

You were wrong in presuming a 2 bedroom house would be above the benefit housing cap....you were wrong in presuming elec/gas  needs would  be the same here as where you are.
You were wrong in assuming my son would have to pay some of his benefits to top up his rent allowance.

Wrong AND patronising, and not only to me either....read back.

When my ex and I split up in Jan 2006 and I moved to Essex, I lived in a small two bedroom cottage, one decent size bedroom, one so small it was hard to get a single bed in.  It was £500 a month and my housing benefit paid it in full while I got myself back on my feet.   I think the way Tommy is going on is bloody insulting to all who have shared their stories about what actually has happened to them.

When people post about their own experiences it 's a bit annoying when someone is constantly disagreeing with what they say.
A while ago on a forum I mentioned my OH could not enrol in a dental practice because they were not adding anyone else to their lists at that time. When he needed emergency treatment he was sent to a place miles away for a one off treatment, but it took him a long time to actually be able to get a practice to enlist him.

Several people said that was rubbish, they could walk into a dentist and be signed on immediately.
Well maybe they could, my OH could not.
Not everyones experiences are the same, and it's ignorant to tell someone they are wrong (or in some cases lying) just because they have different experiences in life.

Syl... I have not changed anything... I said housing benefit would not cover anything more expensive than the one bed flat rate... you said the 2 bed house rate was well under £500 and was paid in full so it must have been within the one bed flat rate.

Pretty clear isn't it?

In any area the rates set to be payable are decided on what the average rental costs are in that area so I'm not comparing different areas at all.

Normally in any area the one bed rate would not cover the cost of a 2 bed house because the 2 bed house would be more expensive because of market forces.

It seems to me that you are twisting things a bit and moving the goalposts yourself... you have claimed that jsa would not be enough to cover basic living expenses... I have shown it can... but then you have said much more was needed but have failed to show what for or how much!

Fact remains that a cheap 2 bed house with poor insulation and central heating will cost more in bills... that is why the rent was cheap!

But jsa should not be used to subsidise this.

It is the landlords responsibility to improve things and then if that pushed up the rent then so be it... but that would mean that son had an extra 15 quid a week for food but housing benefit would not cover all rent!!!

And it's not a cap... there has been a max payable rate for circumstances for as long as I can remember!

A single person has always only got paid the max set for one bed in any area!

I'm surprised at the comments on this thread actually. This issue of a benefits cap has been big in the news for a while, with lots of complaints about it, plus complaints about the "bedroom tax" as well.

I understand where Tommy is coming from re this issue, and I agree with him. If someone is getting housing benefit (or allowance) for a two-bedroom property, it must be either because it's cheaper than the one-bedroom cap, or because the rules are not being applied and the claimant is getting more than they are entitled to.

sassy wrote:

Syl wrote:I have said about 5 times that his rent was lower than £500....you have commented on it at least 3 times.
I have no idea what the rent on a one bedroom apartment would be....the subject never came up.

You were wrong in presuming a 2 bedroom house would be above the benefit housing cap....you were wrong in presuming elec/gas  needs would  be the same here as where you are.
You were wrong in assuming my son would have to pay some of his benefits to top up his rent allowance.

Wrong AND patronising, and not only to me either....read back.

When my ex and I split up in Jan 2006 and I moved to Essex, I lived in a small two bedroom cottage, one decent size bedroom, one so small it was hard to get a single bed in.  It was £500 a month and my housing benefit paid it in full while I got myself back on my feet.   I think the way Tommy is going on is bloody insulting to all who have shared their stories about what actually has happened to them.

firstly, you were lucky to get a two bed anything in Essex for £500 pm
Secondly, you are no longer allowed to do that or you'd have to pay bedroom tax.

Raggamuffin wrote:I'm surprised at the comments on this thread actually. This issue of a benefits cap has been big in the news for a while, with lots of complaints about it, plus complaints about the "bedroom tax" as well.

I understand where Tommy is coming from re this issue, and I agree with him. If someone is getting housing benefit (or allowance) for a two-bedroom property, it must be either because it's cheaper than the one-bedroom cap, or because the rules are not being applied and the claimant is getting more than they are entitled to.

Spot on

Thanks Raggs.


The housing benefit allowances are not themselves a cap, they are decided on a person's need and entitlement.

A single person is only entitled to the one bed rate, a person or couple with a child would be entitled to the 2 bed rate etc...

The benefits cap was brought in to limit the total amount overall that any claimant can get in total of all benefits. .. as under Labour we had people being able to claim up to £100,000 a year in benefits... and then subsequently using this expense to turn down jobs because they didn't pay enough!!!


But what I'm really getting at is people are using their jsa money to pay debts/credit cards and loans fist and then complaining that they don't have enough for food!!!


Isn't that right Syl...!?

Tommy Monk wrote:Syl... I have not changed anything... I said housing benefit would not cover anything more expensive than the one bed flat rate... you said the 2 bed house rate was well under £500 and was paid in full so it must have been within the one bed flat rate.

Pretty clear isn't it?

In any area the rates set to be payable are decided on what the average rental costs are in that area so I'm not comparing different areas at all.

Normally in any area the one bed rate would not cover the cost of a 2 bed house because the 2 bed house would be more expensive because of market forces.

It seems to me that you are twisting things a bit and moving the goalposts yourself... you have claimed that jsa would not be enough to cover basic living expenses... I have shown it can... but then you have said much more was needed but have failed to show what for or how much!

Fact remains that a cheap 2 bed house with poor insulation and central heating will cost more in bills... that is why the rent was cheap!

But jsa should not be used to subsidise this.

It is the landlords responsibility to improve things and then if that pushed up the rent then so be it... but that would mean that son had an extra 15 quid a week for food but housing benefit would not cover all rent!!!

And it's not a cap... there has been a max payable rate for circumstances for as long as I can remember!

A single person has always only got paid the max set for one bed in any area!

Show me one instance where I have twisted anything I have said or moved the goalposts in this thread.

Some of the false statements you have made in reply to me include...
Electric and gas bills are no more than £15 pw....only  if you dont switch it on.

Housing benefit for a single person would not cover anything more expensive than a one bedroom flat.
Wrong,  the suggestion that he move to a one bedroom flat was never even broached. You did eventually back track when you realised  your blanket statement was wrong.

Housing benefit will only pay the rate for a one bedroom flat for a single person....wrong again...see above /\.

If the rent of a 2 bed house was more than the rent of a one bed flat in the same area he would have to pay the difference out of his JSA. ....Nope, the subject was never mentioned by anyone.

The silliest statement you made though was.....The one in eight people in the N/W who are struggling to heat their homes and eat properly are doing so because they are spending their money on "nice new clothes, flat screen TV's, cars, holidays and resaurant bills etc"

You dont write for the Daily Mail in your spare time do you?

this is a form about LHA - local housing allowance rates - and there is a drop down box where you have to select how many bedrooms you're "entitled to"

https://lha-direct.voa.gov.uk/search.aspx

Dont know if that helps?

And this is the LHA bedroom calculator

https://lha-direct.voa.gov.uk/bedroomcalculator.aspx

From the same site:

How do I calculate the rate of Local Housing Allowance?

The Local Housing Allowance used to calculate your benefit will depend on your age and the age and number of people in your household.

The following details explain the conditions for deciding how many rooms you qualify for. The rate of Local Housing Allowance will be according to the number of bedrooms we consider you and your family to need-

One bedroom for:

Every adult couple
Any other adult over 16 years old
Any two children under 10 years old
Any two children of the same sex aged 10 to 15 years old
any other child.
There will be a shared accommodation Local Housing Allowance rate for single people under the age of 35. This rate will also apply to single people and couples who choose to live in shared accommodation.

Bedroom entitlement calculator >>

Syl wrote:

Tommy Monk wrote:Syl... I have not changed anything... I said housing benefit would not cover anything more expensive than the one bed flat rate... you said the 2 bed house rate was well under £500 and was paid in full so it must have been within the one bed flat rate.

Pretty clear isn't it?

In any area the rates set to be payable are decided on what the average rental costs are in that area so I'm not comparing different areas at all.

Normally in any area the one bed rate would not cover the cost of a 2 bed house because the 2 bed house would be more expensive because of market forces.

It seems to me that you are twisting things a bit and moving the goalposts yourself... you have claimed that jsa would not be enough to cover basic living expenses... I have shown it can... but then you have said much more was needed but have failed to show what for or how much!

Fact remains that a cheap 2 bed house with poor insulation and central heating will cost more in bills... that is why the rent was cheap!

But jsa should not be used to subsidise this.

It is the landlords responsibility to improve things and then if that pushed up the rent then so be it... but that would mean that son had an extra 15 quid a week for food but housing benefit would not cover all rent!!!

And it's not a cap... there has been a max payable rate for circumstances for as long as I can remember!

A single person has always only got paid the max set for one bed in any area!

Show me one instance where I have twisted anything I have said or moved the goalposts in this thread.

see below

Some of the false statements you have made in reply to me  include...
Electric and gas bills are no more than £15 pw....only  if you dont switch it on.
No, my gas/elec total combined averaged 15 quid a week... it's more than 15 quid a week if you switch heating on all the time at a high setting and you have poor insulation and windows and an inefficient expensive central heating system and want to walk about in shorts and a t shirt in toasty warmth... What's wrong with using the heating sparingly and putting a couple of jumpers on and a hat!?

Housing benefit for a single person would not cover anything more expensive than a one bedroom flat.
Wrong,  the suggestion that he move to a one bedroom flat was never even broached. You did eventually back track when you realised  your blanket statement was wrong.
How many times as you going to twist this one!?

A single person will only be entitled to up to the maximum local set rate payable for a one bed flat... you have already said that the 2 bed house was much less than £500 and it appears that in that area the one bed flat rate would have covered it... SO IT DIDN'T COVER ANYTHING MORE EXPENSIVE DID IT!?


Housing benefit will only pay the rate for a one bedroom flat for a single person....wrong again...see above /\.

What is wrong with you?

How many times doing have to spell this out for you?

A single person will only be entitled to the one bed flat rate at the most... although some authorities are putting an age restriction on this now so that if you are single and under a certain age you will only qualify for the rate for a room in a shared house!

If the rent of a 2 bed house was more than the rent of a one bed flat in the same area he would have to pay the difference out of his JSA. ....Nope, the subject was never mentioned by anyone.

my above statement is true and in keeping with my earlier statements. .. the max payable to a single person would be the rate set for a one bed flat in that area... if the 2 bed house was more than this rate then he would only have got the max one bed rate and would have had to pay the difference himself.

The silliest statement you made though was.....The one in eight people in the N/W who are struggling to heat their homes and eat properly are doing so because they are spending their money on "nice new clothes, flat screen TV's, cars, holidays and resaurant bills etc"

You dont write for the Daily Mail in your spare time do you?

Why is that silly! ! ?

What are they spending their money on then if not on food and gas/elec, which are the primary priorities! !! ??

You haven't answered this last question yet or told us what extra things your son needed money for and how much you were giving him for them!???

We are going round in circles.

The bottom line is YOU were trying to tell ME about my sons outgoings, incomings, what he would be entitled to and how much he should be spending.

I told YOU the facts as they were when he was unemployed.

I dont dispute your figures, I just stated that my son was entitled to live where he lived without any question of him downsizing.....whether or not one bed properties were cheaper in the area was never discussed.

As for answering your last personal question, I told you to mind your own business.
I know you have had trouble taking in some of the other replies......but surely you do understand that.

Look, all the Government sites say the same thing. A person on housing allowance is either entitled to rent a property with one bedroom only, or they're allowed to claim for more than one bedroom as long as the rent for the property does not exceed the cap for a single person. I put that second bit in because it's not very clear. However, what they can't claim for is the whole rent on a two-bedroom property which exceeds the cap for a single person.

It's all there in black and white. If someone gets housing allowance which exceeds the single person cap in a particular area, then they're clearly getting more than they're entitled to.

Syl wrote:We are going round in circles.

The bottom line is YOU were trying to tell ME about my sons outgoings, incomings, what he would be entitled to and how much he should be spending.

I told YOU the facts as they were when he was unemployed.

I dont dispute your figures, I just stated that my son was entitled to live where he lived without any question of him downsizing.....whether or not one bed properties were cheaper in the area was never discussed.  

As for answering your last personal question, I told you to mind your own business.
I know you have had trouble taking in some of the other replies......but surely you do understand that.

Tommy is only discussing the minimum that people really need to live on. Perhaps we could continue to discuss a fictitious person instead of your son.

How many times?


I'm not talking about downsizing...


A single person will only get the maximum amount set by local authority for what they consider to be reasonable to pay for a one bed flat... if you live in a larger cheaper place then this will obviously pay or this place... however if you live in a larger place that is more expensive than the max one bed rate then you will only get the one bed rate and have to pay the difference yourself.


Eg. Max One bed rate set by housing benefit = 400 month...
Renting a one bed flat at 390 = housing benefit covers rent paying 390

Renting a one bed flat at 410 = housing benefit covers 400 of rent as that is max payable for one bed rate and I max allowed for single person

Renting a two bed flat at 390 = housing benefit covers rent paying 390 which is inside the max payable rate for single person...

Renting 2 bed flat at 410... housing benefit covers 400 of rent as that is the max rate allowed for a single person