At Last A Forum With Free Speech- Newsfix Rocks.

[Major]

First topic message reminder :

The forums I have been on where you are banned for even thinking the things we freely discuss here.

We must be allowed to vent our views, even anger if we want to.

Sassy can even have her purely racist, hatred views of us Brits put into script.

Most forums say they have free speech but it is untrue when it comes to debating, queers, terrorists, Muslims lesbos and so on.

Newfix Rocks,





unless you know different.

[Raggamuffin]

I think it's wrong to discredit all success by saying it was based on "theft" though. People do make their own success by being ambitious, working hard, and taking risks.

[Guest]

I think it's wrong to discredit all success by saying it was based on "theft" though. People do make their own success by being ambitious, working hard, and taking risks.

Oh there is definately hard work and the fact many were also exploited here where an elite at the time took full advantage, but many aspects today come clearly off the advanatge of wealth and resources we did not naturally have in the UK
The Industrial revolution needed many people to work the factories

[Raggamuffin]

I think it's wrong to discredit all success by saying it was based on "theft" though. People do make their own success by being ambitious, working hard, and taking risks.

Oh there is definately hard work and the fact many were also exploited here where an elite at the time took full advantage, but many aspects today come clearly off the advanatge of wealth and resources we did not naturally have in the UK
The Industrial revolution needed many people to work the factories

Hard work isn't really enough. Lots of people work hard and don't get very far. The real success comes from ambition and a willingness to take a risk - if it's a calculated risk of course.

[veya_victaous]

It's Veya's relatives who took advantage, so I don't know why he's being so belligerent. Must be a guilt thing.

Took advantage of Being in Chain Gangs?
Or took advantage of having to send their taxes to the UK?
My Grandfather paid Taxes to Build the Infrastructure in ENGLAND
he never went to Europe in his entire life.

You are So fucked up, you evil selfish shit
It is YOU that should be guilty.
it is YOUR relatives that took advantage. we have the land NOW!! but the UK was Still making us Pay to Buy Our OWN resources we dug out of the ground ourselves WITH interest until 1988.

[Guest]

Oh there is definately hard work and the fact many were also exploited here where an elite at the time took full advantage, but many aspects today come clearly off the advanatge of wealth and resources we did not naturally have in the UK
The Industrial revolution needed many people to work the factories

Hard work isn't really enough. Lots of people work hard and don't get very far. The real success comes from ambition and a willingness to take a risk - if it's a calculated risk of course.

Again that will only be a few innovative people Rags baed on that time

[veya_victaous]

I think it's wrong to discredit all success by saying it was based on "theft" though. People do make their own success by being ambitious, working hard, and taking risks.

Oh there is definately hard work and the fact many were also exploited here where an elite at the time took full advantage, but many aspects today come clearly off the advanatge of wealth and resources we did not naturally have in the UK
The Industrial revolution needed many people to work the factories

Hard work isn't really enough. Lots of people work hard and don't get very far. The real success comes from ambition and a willingness to take a risk - if it's a calculated risk of course.

it comes from having resources!!!

You cant do shit none of the other factor do anything if you don't have the resources.

[Raggamuffin]

It's Veya's relatives who took advantage, so I don't know why he's being so belligerent. Must be a guilt thing.

Took advantage of Being in Chain Gangs?
Or took advantage of having to send their taxes to the UK?
My Grandfather paid Taxes to Build the Infrastructure in ENGLAND
he never went to Europe in his entire life.

You are So fucked up, you evil selfish shit
It is YOU that should be guilty.
it is YOUR relatives that took advantage. we have the land NOW!! but the UK was Still making us Pay to Buy Our OWN resources we dug out of the ground ourselves WITH interest until 1988.

Your relatives took advantage and went out to a country that you say was "stolen". Where were their morals Veya?

[Raggamuffin]

Hard work isn't really enough. Lots of people work hard and don't get very far. The real success comes from ambition and a willingness to take a risk - if it's a calculated risk of course.

Again that will only be a few innovative people Rags baed on that time

I'm talking about now. I keep hearing about everyone in the UK must base their success on "theft" from other countries. I think you do a lot of people a disservice.

[Guest]

Again that will only be a few innovative people Rags baed on that time

I'm talking about now. I keep hearing about everyone in the UK must base their success on "theft" from other countries. I think you do a lot of people a disservice.

I get your point Rags, but that still comes off the back, off this advanatged position.
So if you have this advantage then clearly you are better placed than say people in other parts of the world that do not have this head start. If they had the same chances, would they not only excell as well?

[Raggamuffin]

I'm talking about now. I keep hearing about everyone in the UK must base their success on "theft" from other countries. I think you do a lot of people a disservice.

I get your point Rags, but that still comes off the back, off this advanatged position.
So if you have this advantage then clearly you are better placed than say people in other parts of the world that do not have this head start. If they had the same chances, would they not only excell as well?

So what about people who fail? Those who can't keep a job down, or simply fail at everything? Is that because of theft from other nations too? If they have an inherent advantage, how come they don't excel?

[Guest]

I get your point Rags, but that still comes off the back, off this advanatged position.
So if you have this advantage then clearly you are better placed than say people in other parts of the world that do not have this head start. If they had the same chances, would they not only excell as well?

So what about people who fail? Those who can't keep a job down, or simply fail at everything? Is that because of theft from other nations too? If they have an inherent advantage, how come they don't excel?

Nobody fails at everything that is illogical, many people become parents, that is not failing in itself.
To classify failure has to be standard.
So lets put this to the test.
How do you think you would have fared today if born in India, in poverty, where you were illiterate and had no schooling.
Swap you with someone from India here, to be brought up in even in a lower poverty level, with schooling etc.
Who do you think is going to have the better advnatage in life?

[Raggamuffin]

So what about people who fail? Those who can't keep a job down, or simply fail at everything? Is that because of theft from other nations too? If they have an inherent advantage, how come they don't excel?

Nobody fails at everything that is illogical, many people become parents, that is not failing in itself.
To classify failure has to be standard.
So lets put this to the test.
How do you think you woul have fare today if born in India, in poverty, where you were illiterate and had no schooling.
Swap you with someone from India here, to be brought up in even in a lower poverty level, with schooling etc.
Who do you think is going to have the better advnatage in life?

We're not talking about being parents though are we? We're talking about resources and money. I'm talking about this country. If everyone has an inherent advantage by being British, as you claim, how come not everyone succeeds?

[Eilzel]

Veya, had it not been for those first settlers, whether they stayed or not, then you wouldn't be there today. However you paint it you have Britain's 'evil' empire to thank for living in what you call paradise today. At the expense of the native people.

Tommy, I wasn't deliberately avoiding anything, I'm just not going to list every single nation that conquered or exploited. I mentioned Turkey, which under the Ottomans had the most expansive Muslim empire that world has ever seen.

[Guest]

Nobody fails at everything that is illogical, many people become parents, that is not failing in itself.
To classify failure has to be standard.
So lets put this to the test.
How do you think you woul have fare today if born in India, in poverty, where you were illiterate and had no schooling.
Swap you with someone from India here, to be brought up in even in a lower poverty level, with schooling etc.
Who do you think is going to have the better advnatage in life?

We're not talking about being parents though are we? We're talking about resources and money. I'm talking about this country. If everyone has an inherent advantage by being British, as you claim, how come not everyone succeeds?

You made a view on failure not basing any standard.
Lets first answer my question before we move on.
Who would fare better?
Who would be more advantaged?

[Raggamuffin]

We're not talking about being parents though are we? We're talking about resources and money. I'm talking about this country. If everyone has an inherent advantage by being British, as you claim, how come not everyone succeeds?

You made a view on failure not basing any standard.
Lets first answer my question before we move on.
Who would fare better?
Who would be more advantaged?

You said this about people in other nations:

If they had the same chances, would they not only excell as well?

I think the answer is no. You are not taking into account different personalities, different ambitions, different ability.

[Guest]

You made a view on failure not basing any standard.
Lets first answer my question before we move on.
Who would fare better?
Who would be more advantaged?

You said this about people in other nations:

If they had the same chances, would they not only excell as well?

I think the answer is no. You are not taking into account different personalities, different ambitions, different ability.

That does not answer allt he question, as who would fare better?
Who wpuld be more advantaged
I am not going to go around in continual circles if you avoid or refuse to answer.
Last chance Rags, or debate is over on this matter

[Eilzel]

To cast light on the difference between advantages if being British-

If you are British and poor the state helps.
If you are homeless you can get help without being forced to beg.
You have free speech.
If you are a minority you are probsbly not going to be discriminated against.
You get financial help and affordable loans to get you through university.
You have a free healthcare service that is the envy of much of the world.
Your passport gets you into more countries than any other.
Most the world speaks your language.
You are relatively save from violent conflict.
And so on..,

In Thailand most of that list isn't the case, same in most developing countries and even some developed ones.

[Raggamuffin]

You said this about people in other nations:



I think the answer is no. You are not taking into account different personalities, different ambitions, different ability.

That does not answer allt he question, as who would fare better?
Who wpuld be more advantaged
I am not going to go around in continual circles if you avoid or refuse to answer.
Last chance Rags, or debate is over on this matter

Don't give me ultimatums - they don't impress me. If you can't understand what I'm saying, that's your problem.

"Success" is relative is it not? I've never been a fan of comparing people to each other re "success", but if I was, I'd say that the measure is against your peers, not those in other countries. In other countries, they have their own idea of success - probably in comparison to others in the same country. Who are you to say that someone in this country fares better than someone in another country? They might not be impressed by what impresses you.

[Raggamuffin]

To cast light on the difference between advantages if being British-

If you are British and poor the state helps.
If you are homeless you can get help without being forced to beg.
You have free speech.
If you are a minority you are probsbly not going to be discriminated against.
You get financial help and affordable loans to get you through university.
You have a free healthcare service that is the envy of much of the world.
Your passport gets you into more countries than any other.
Most the world speaks your language.
You are relatively save from violent conflict.
And so on..,

In Thailand most of that list isn't the case, same in most developing countries and even some developed ones.

So is all that down to "theft" from other countries?

[Guest]

That does not answer allt he question, as who would fare better?
Who wpuld be more advantaged
I am not going to go around in continual circles if you avoid or refuse to answer.
Last chance Rags, or debate is over on this matter

Don't give me ultimatums - they don't impress me. If you can't understand what I'm saying, that's your problem.

"Success" is relative is it not? I've never been a fan of comparing people to each other re "success", but if I was, I'd say that the measure is against your peers, not those in other countries. In other countries, they have their own idea of success - probably in comparison to others in the same country. Who are you to say that someone in this country fares better than someone in another country? They might not be impressed by what impresses you.

There is no point continuing a discussion if you avoid valid major points Rags or refuse to answer them.
Its not an ultimatum but me stating the discussion is going to now cease.
Like I say I do not want o waste time going around in a continual circle.

So all the best

[Raggamuffin]

Don't give me ultimatums - they don't impress me. If you can't understand what I'm saying, that's your problem.

"Success" is relative is it not? I've never been a fan of comparing people to each other re "success", but if I was, I'd say that the measure is against your peers, not those in other countries. In other countries, they have their own idea of success - probably in comparison to others in the same country. Who are you to say that someone in this country fares better than someone in another country? They might not be impressed by what impresses you.

There is no point continuing a discussion if you avoid valid major points Rags or refuse to answer them.
Its not an ultimatum but me stating the discussion is going to now cease.
Like I say I do not want o waste time going around in a continual circle.

So all the best

Well you've completely ignored all my points, so the feeling is mutual.

[Raggamuffin]

So has Veya calmed down yet?

[Eilzel]

All those concerned with money are yes, because as we became an incredibly wealthy nation most of those things started to be viewed as rights. Most developing nations are so focused on economic growth that it often comes at the expense of human rights and services we expect in the wealthy west.

[Guest]

There is no point continuing a discussion if you avoid valid major points Rags or refuse to answer them.
Its not an ultimatum but me stating the discussion is going to now cease.
Like I say I do not want o waste time going around in a continual circle.

So all the best

Well you've completely ignored all my points, so the feeling is mutual.

Except they would have been answered as I said first opf all lets answer this first point.
Then the debate moves forward, and I answered all points you made to me untill I asked two questions

It does not matter now, you had a choice, you chose not to answer.

Which is fine

Right going to bed, so goodnight

[Raggamuffin]

Well you've completely ignored all my points, so the feeling is mutual.

Except they would have been answered as I said first opf all lets answer this first point.
Then the debate moves forward, and I answered all points you made to me untill I asked two questions

It does not matter now, you had a choice, you chose not to answer.

Which is fine

Right going to bed, so goodnight

It's too late - you had your chance and you blew it.

Goodnight.

[Raggamuffin]

All those concerned with money are yes, because as we became an incredibly wealthy nation most of those things started to be viewed as rights. Most developing nations are so focused on economic growth that it often comes at the expense of human rights and services we expect in the wealthy west.

Nothing to do with taxes which people pay or laws passed then?

[Eilzel]

Join the dots raggs. The amount of wealth we stole plus the trade we forced through empire gave British people more opportunities. And since we could advance faster on the backs of that our politics could, and did, move to building up a better country for British people. Of course taxes and laws were the direct cause but do you honestly think building our nation on the back of 1/3 of the world had NOTHING to do with that???

[Raggamuffin]

Join the dots raggs. The amount of wealth we stole plus the trade we forced through empire gave British people more opportunities. And since we could advance faster on the backs of that our politics could, and did, move to building up a better country for British people. Of course taxes and laws were the direct cause but do you honestly think building our nation on the back of 1/3 of the world had NOTHING to do with that???

But I've said that those other nations also benefited. I just think this is all a bit one-sided.

[Eilzel]

The nations we colonised? I'm not sure they would agree the price was worth paying for whatever token 'benefits' they gained. Let's look at some of the wrongs and legacy of empire:

Millions of Indians dead in the 19thC due to avoidable famine.
Apartheid and race issues across Africa.
A careless carving up the Middle East.
Aborigines and native Americands becoming devastated minorities in their own lands.
Billions worth of riches and wealth stolen in today's money.
Their manufacturing suppressed in favour of ours.

Sure we brought modernity, railways and capitalism (assuming you call that a benefit). But was it really worth the above?

[veya_victaous]

It's Veya's relatives who took advantage, so I don't know why he's being so belligerent. Must be a guilt thing.

Took advantage of Being in Chain Gangs?
Or took advantage of having to send their taxes to the UK?
My Grandfather paid Taxes to Build the Infrastructure in ENGLAND
he never went to Europe in his entire life.

You are So fucked up, you evil selfish shit
It is YOU that should be guilty.
it is YOUR relatives that took advantage. we have the land NOW!! but the UK was Still making us Pay to Buy Our OWN resources we dug out of the ground ourselves WITH interest until 1988.

Your relatives took advantage and went out to a country that you say was "stolen". Where were their morals Veya?

which Side?
Mum's side where Convicts they did not come by choice.
Dad's had nothing left in France after Nazis blew it up.
My Pepere like many french people left with nothing after the war, was given the choice of Argentina or Australia.

and maybe that may give you some idea of Why I WILL ALWAYS DEFEND REFUGEES!!!

[veya_victaous]

The nations we colonised? I'm not sure they would agree the price was worth paying for whatever token 'benefits' they gained. Let's look at some of the wrongs and legacy of empire:

Millions of Indians dead in the 19thC due to avoidable famine.
Apartheid and race issues across Africa.
A careless carving up the Middle East.
Aborigines and native Americands becoming devastated minorities in their own lands.
Billions worth of riches and wealth stolen in today's money.
Their manufacturing suppressed in favour of ours.

Sure we brought modernity, railways and capitalism (assuming you call that a benefit). But was it really worth the above?

Thanks you for showing not all Brits are as self centered and ludicrously ignorant about Colonial times as some posters here.

[Eilzel]

I mean, to be fair veya, I do not feel like I personally should share any blame have any guilt about what was done by my country before I was born. But I do feel it is important to acknowledge what my country did and appreciate how it benefits me today. We cannot go through history endlessly claiming people should pay for what their ancestors did. Britain has no obligation to take refugees because we imposed ourselves on other nations 4 or more generations ago. We have an obligation as a wealthy nation that partly caused situations in certain places sure, but that's different.

I read of late there are some in former colonies who want reparations for empire- that is ridiculous at this point, and would only serve to make innocent people in modern Britain suffer.

[veya_victaous]

I mean, to be fair veya, I do not feel like I personally should share any blame have any guilt about what was done by my country before I was born. But I do feel it is important to acknowledge what my country did and appreciate how it benefits me today. We cannot go through history endlessly claiming people should pay for what their ancestors did. Britain has no obligation to take refugees because we imposed ourselves on other nations 4 or more generations ago. We have an obligation as a wealthy nation that partly caused situations in certain places sure, but that's different.

I read of late there are some in former colonies who want reparations for empire- that is ridiculous at this point, and would only serve to make innocent people in modern Britain suffer.

2 points:

27 years ago was the last payment Australia made to the UK, not 4 generations ago.  I was 5 years old when it happened with great fan fare.

and I PAY REPARATIONS for wealth sent to Britain previously.
that is why colonies are suggesting it because WE are repatriating people for wealth we didn't even end up with.
Or does it end up again that Citizens of the colonies pay for the selfish behavior of the British, now I don't mind paying my share but the UK's share is just as great. And I think it is Fine if the UK doesn't pay its share as long as it NEVER suggests it is good fair or just ever again. The real problem Like most colonials have is the Hypocrisy.
IF Tommy and Raggs want to say those things THEN they bloody well Should pay and pay dearly to compensate.

Britain has an Obligation to take refugees because of commitment to the UN
It by Rights should be paying the lions share of foreign aide (it does not) because of colonialism.

[veya_victaous]

It must be something in British education
I have no problem accepting the Guilt of the British Empire and trying to make things right.

You have to understand the reason the Brits are getting singled out now is because Australia New Zealand and Canada ARE accepting the guilt on your nations behalf. and all 3 of us have rightful complaints of our own about how we were administered during the age of empires.

we are willing to put them aside, but not to have Brits spread Bullshit propaganda about them doing people favors by enslaving and colonizing them. we aren't going to pay and have the UK tell us we should be paying the UK for the privileged of being raped (as we did until 1988)

I know You are not actually on the bad side

[nicko]

Veya, why do you hate us so much? i'v done nothing to you, neither did my father or grandfather. Was there some thing about "the sins of their fathers"? you are being extremely unfair to put the blame on us for your own guilt. You must feel this guilt about some thing you did yourself or,maybe your forefathers did. Whatever, you are a very mixed up person. judging by the capitals you use, you are on the brink of "losing" it. Chill out son your worrying me.

[Guest]

It must be something in British education
I have no problem accepting the Guilt of the British Empire and trying to make things right.

You have to understand the reason the Brits are getting singled out now is because Australia New Zealand and Canada ARE accepting the guilt on your nations behalf. and all 3 of us have rightful complaints of our own about how we were administered during the age of empires.

we are willing to put them aside, but not to have Brits spread Bullshit propaganda about them doing people favors by enslaving and colonizing them. we aren't going to pay and have the UK tell us we should be paying the UK for the privileged of being raped (as we did until 1988)

I know You are not actually on the bad side

Flawed guilt by association

We have many British people that recognise the wrongs done in the past by Britain

So you are wrongly making all Brits culpable.

That is fundementally wrong.

You also do not speak for all Australians and New Zealnders, many would be disgusted at your comments

Stop spouting your hare of British people as you know no real British people in real life and a handful on a forumj is not something to give you reason to spout hate against them

[Guest]

I mean, to be fair veya, I do not feel like I personally should share any blame have any guilt about what was done by my country before I was born. But I do feel it is important to acknowledge what my country did and appreciate how it benefits me today. We cannot go through history endlessly claiming people should pay for what their ancestors did. Britain has no obligation to take refugees because we imposed ourselves on other nations 4 or more generations ago. We have an obligation as a wealthy nation that partly caused situations in certain places sure, but that's different.

I read of late there are some in former colonies who want reparations for empire- that is ridiculous at this point, and would only serve to make innocent people in modern Britain suffer.

Completely agree.

[Original Quill]

I mean, to be fair veya, I do not feel like I personally should share any blame have any guilt about what was done by my country before I was born. But I do feel it is important to acknowledge what my country did and appreciate how it benefits me today. We cannot go through history endlessly claiming people should pay for what their ancestors did. Britain has no obligation to take refugees because we imposed ourselves on other nations 4 or more generations ago. We have an obligation as a wealthy nation that partly caused situations in certain places sure, but that's different.

I read of late there are some in former colonies who want reparations for empire- that is ridiculous at this point, and would only serve to make innocent people in modern Britain suffer.

Gd points. You don't use history for guilt. You use history to understand cause and effect. Green for that Les. Few people understand that as well as do you.

[Raggamuffin]

The nations we colonised? I'm not sure they would agree the price was worth paying for whatever token 'benefits' they gained. Let's look at some of the wrongs and legacy of empire:

Millions of Indians dead in the 19thC due to avoidable famine.
Apartheid and race issues across Africa.
A careless carving up the Middle East.
Aborigines and native Americands becoming devastated minorities in their own lands.
Billions worth of riches and wealth stolen in today's money.
Their manufacturing suppressed in favour of ours.

Sure we brought modernity, railways and capitalism (assuming you call that a benefit). But was it really worth the above?

There were other things relating to infrastructure. Of course, if they don't want those things, they could always destroy them rather than benefit from them.

[Raggamuffin]

It must be something in British education
I have no problem accepting the Guilt of the British Empire and trying to make things right.

You have to understand the reason the Brits are getting singled out now is because Australia New Zealand and Canada ARE accepting the guilt on your nations behalf. and all 3 of us have rightful complaints of our own about how we were administered during the age of empires.

we are willing to put them aside, but not to have Brits spread Bullshit propaganda about them doing people favors by enslaving and colonizing them. we aren't going to pay and have the UK tell us we should be paying the UK for the privileged of being raped (as we did until 1988)

I know You are not actually on the bad side

Why is your business anyway? Of course you love accusing the British because you're not British. How about you mind your own business and concentrate on your own country?

[Raggamuffin]

I mean, what do you want Veya? Do you want all British children to be brought up under some kind of guilt trip? It's one thing for people to tell children they should eat their dinner because there are children starving in other countries, but do you think they should be told that they practically stole that food out of those starving children's mouths?

There's something wrong with you. You need to pull yourself together.

[Eilzel]

Why should they destroy anything? It was all paid for with off the backs of the local people anyway.

[Raggamuffin]

Why should they destroy anything? It was all paid for with off the backs of the local people anyway.

British investment. They could send the railways back - we could do some more over here, especially cross country.

[Raggamuffin]

Seriously, I really don't know why so many people live in the past - when it suits them. Veya likes to think of himself as progressive and "modern" but he constantly bangs on and on about the past. His father is/was French, so he should maybe concentrate on fretting about the French colonial empire instead - then he can go on a massive guilt trip about that.

[Eilzel]

What are you even talking about?

[Major]

Speaking of guilt trip, several times a day begging adverts on behalf of children come on the TV which tug at your heart strings, usually when I am eating.
Bleedin fed up with it.

I, we cannot be responsible for the whole world.

I do not mind too much chucking a few shillings into a collection tin around town but they are all over the place.

[Raggamuffin]

What are you even talking about?

Railways.

[Eilzel]

My objection here was to tommy's painting of empire as mostly good; and that the colonies wanted us to be there because we'd help them. The biggest nonsense I ever heard. Again however the past is always relevant. I do not think any of us should feel guilt or pay reparations BUT we should acknowledge our role in the mess in many places today partly due to empire.

PS I got you were talking about railways, I just don't see why you are suggesting they should send anything back.

[Guest]

Speaking of guilt trip, several times a day begging adverts on behalf of children come on the TV which tug at your heart strings, usually when I am eating.
Bleedin fed up with it.

I, we cannot be responsible for the whole world.

I do not mind too much chucking a few shillings into a collection tin  around town but they are all over the place.

Thew world is responible for each other, if it was not how do you think the UK could feed itself and function when it does not have enough natural resources and food? It has not had enough for countless years. Remember what you have is from the collective wealth of a nation which needs exports in order to feed and run thius country. If other nations took your approach, what do you think would happen if there then was a food and power shortage?

[Raggamuffin]

My objection here was to tommy's painting of empire as mostly good; and that the colonies wanted us to be there because we'd help them. The biggest nonsense I ever heard. Again however the past is always relevant. I do not think any of us should feel guilt or pay reparations BUT we should acknowledge our role in the mess in many places today partly due to empire.

PS I got you were talking about railways, I just don't see why you are suggesting they should send anything back.

You seem to think that nobody benefited from things like the railways, so I'd hate to see them go to waste.

Do people expect German people to feel endless guilt about what happened in Nazi Germany? Will they expect the Germans in 500 years' time to be constantly wringing their hands over what happened?

How about Israel? Germany paid Israel in reparation for what someone else did, and they paid it to the State of Israel - ie, people who weren't even necessarily in Germany, and yet a lot of Palestinians think the Israelis are very much like Nazis, so who is guilty?

How about the Americans? Should they all be on a guilt trip over all those Japanese civilians they killed by dropping nuclear bombs on them? How long should that guilt trip last?

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