At Last A Forum With Free Speech- Newsfix Rocks.

[Major]

First topic message reminder :

The forums I have been on where you are banned for even thinking the things we freely discuss here.

We must be allowed to vent our views, even anger if we want to.

Sassy can even have her purely racist, hatred views of us Brits put into script.

Most forums say they have free speech but it is untrue when it comes to debating, queers, terrorists, Muslims lesbos and so on.

Newfix Rocks,





unless you know different.

[Raggamuffin]

If I met an ordinary Japanese person, should I demand that they apologise for the treatment of British POWs during WW2?

[Guest]

If I met an ordinary Japanese person, should I demand that they apologise for the treatment of British POWs during WW2?

To ask to apologise as an individual?

No

Collectivelly to ask to apologiose for the nations crime?

Yes

There is a growing worry that Japan is getting more nationalistic again, but they still do today and rightly apologise for wrongs done back them

[Raggamuffin]

Speaking of guilt trip, several times a day begging adverts on behalf of children come on the TV which tug at your heart strings, usually when I am eating.
Bleedin fed up with it.

I, we cannot be responsible for the whole world.

I do not mind too much chucking a few shillings into a collection tin  around town but they are all over the place.

That's what the adverts are designed for Stormee, and that's why time them as they do. It's why they have that heart-wrenching background music along with a poignant voiceover.

It's a problem with a lot of charities these days. People are so overwhelmed by all the stuff they get from them, and the guilt trips they try to send people on that it's becoming absurd. People should be free to decide who they give money too without being made to feel rotten if they don't.

[Raggamuffin]

If I met an ordinary Japanese person, should I demand that they apologise for the treatment of British POWs during WW2?

To ask to apologise as an individual?

No

Collectivelly to ask to apologiose for the nations crime?

Yes

There is a growing worry that Japan is getting more nationalistic again, but they still do today and rightly apologise for wrongs done back them

Ah, well you see I don't think they should be asked to apologise collectively either. They're not the same people.

Have the Americans apologised for nuking all those people in Japan?

[Guest]

My objection here was to tommy's painting of empire as mostly good; and that the colonies wanted us to be there because we'd help them. The biggest nonsense I ever heard. Again however the past is always relevant. I do not think any of us should feel guilt or pay reparations BUT we should acknowledge our role in the mess in many places today partly due to empire.

PS I got you were talking about railways, I just don't see why you are suggesting they should send anything back.

You seem to think that nobody benefited from things like the railways, so I'd hate to see them go to waste.

Do people expect German people to feel endless guilt about what happened in Nazi Germany? Will they expect the Germans in 500 years' time to be constantly wringing their hands over what happened?

How about Israel? Germany paid Israel in reparation for what someone else did, and they paid it to the State of Israel - ie, people who weren't even necessarily in Germany, and yet a lot of Palestinians think the Israelis are very much like Nazis, so who is guilty?

How about the Americans? Should they all be on a guilt trip over all those Japanese civilians they killed by dropping nuclear bombs on them? How long should that guilt trip last?

Had did people benefit from a system which fundementally exploited them, where only an elite benefited?
The railways was built to help speed up the export of resources the Uk robbed for use of and selling themselves.
That is not benefitting the people if the primary purpose was for the benefit of the Empire.
Many Germans do feel guilty about the Holocaust hence why holocaust denial is a criminal offense
America dropped the bombs out of a need to save lives, when you look at how many casulties there could have been based off not only allied, but the Japanese estimates of casultuis of which they estimated 20 million, what was the lesser evil here and did dropping the bombs in fact end up saving lives?
As to Israel what crimes, when it was the Arab nations as the aggressors who started the conflict
Are you saying Nazi germany was a victim for invading Poland, because it did not recognise the right of Poland to exist?

[Raggamuffin]

You seem to think that nobody benefited from things like the railways, so I'd hate to see them go to waste.

Do people expect German people to feel endless guilt about what happened in Nazi Germany? Will they expect the Germans in 500 years' time to be constantly wringing their hands over what happened?

How about Israel? Germany paid Israel in reparation for what someone else did, and they paid it to the State of Israel - ie, people who weren't even necessarily in Germany, and yet a lot of Palestinians think the Israelis are very much like Nazis, so who is guilty?

How about the Americans? Should they all be on a guilt trip over all those Japanese civilians they killed by dropping nuclear bombs on them? How long should that guilt trip last?

Had did people benefit from a system which fundementally exploited them, where only an elite benefited?
The railways was built to help speed up the export of resources the Uk robbed for use of and selling themselves.
That is not benefitting the people if the primary purpose was for the benefit of the Empire.
Many Germans do feel guilty about the Holocaust hence why holocaust denial is a criminal offense
America dropped the bombs out of a need to save lives, when you look at how many casulties there could have been based off not only allied, but the Japanese estimates of casultuis of which they estimated 20 million, what was the lesser evil here and did dropping the bombs in fact end up saving lives?
As to Israel what crimes, when it was the Arab nations as the aggressors who started the conflict
Are you saying Nazi germany was a victim for invading Poland, because it did not recognise the right of Poland to exist?

Of course people benefited from things like railways - I would have thought that was obvious. They still have those railways don't they?

Holocaust denial should not be a criminal offence IMO, and I'm glad it's not in the UK. That doesn't mean I'm a Holocaust denier by the way.

Of course there's always an excuse for some people to do what they did. America deliberately and cold-bloodedly killed lots of civilians in Japan, and yet those same people who defend it probably condemn the bombing of Syria. Not only that, but the effects of those nukes went on for a long time afterwards.

I'm saying that the Palestinians and their supporters see the Israelis as bullies, not victims, and yet others still see Jews as victims of the Holocaust, even if they weren't actually in Germany or occupied countries at the time, and that sends them on a guilt trip.

[Raggamuffin]

Anyway, a lot of countries did bad things to other countries at some point or another, so I really don't see the point of people getting in a flap about things which happened years and years ago.

Veya is on some kind of massive never-ending rant about the British, and quite frankly, I think he's losing his mind. Anyone who enables him to keep doing it by agreeing with him about British guilt is contributing to his unstable state of mind.

[Guest]

Had did people benefit from a system which fundementally exploited them, where only an elite benefited?
The railways was built to help speed up the export of resources the Uk robbed for use of and selling themselves.
That is not benefitting the people if the primary purpose was for the benefit of the Empire.
Many Germans do feel guilty about the Holocaust hence why holocaust denial is a criminal offense
America dropped the bombs out of a need to save lives, when you look at how many casulties there could have been based off not only allied, but the Japanese estimates of casultuis of which they estimated 20 million, what was the lesser evil here and did dropping the bombs in fact end up saving lives?
As to Israel what crimes, when it was the Arab nations as the aggressors who started the conflict
Are you saying Nazi germany was a victim for invading Poland, because it did not recognise the right of Poland to exist?

Of course people benefited from things like railways - I would have thought that was obvious. They still have those railways don't they?

Holocaust denial should not be a criminal offence IMO, and I'm glad it's not in the UK. That doesn't mean I'm a Holocaust denier by the way.

Of course there's always an excuse for some people to do what they did. America deliberately and cold-bloodedly killed lots of civilians in Japan, and yet those same people who defend it probably condemn the bombing of Syria. Not only that, but the effects of those nukes went on for a long time afterwards.

I'm saying that the Palestinians and their supporters see the Israelis as bullies, not victims, and yet others still see Jews as victims of the Holocaust, even if they weren't actually in Germany or occupied countries at the time, and that sends them on a guilt trip.

Point so far above your head, they were built to benefit the empire, to speed up the process.
Again if you had ever travelled to India, you would not even claim that was a benefit the way they are overcorwded
I never said it should be a criminal offense, again poiont lost on you, the reason it is, because the Germans feel very strongly about this crime in history they were apart of
Daft and absurd point on America, as it was the Japanese that went aggresivelly to war against America. Japan is responsible for the loss of life it endured due to its aggression. If they had not attacked, would those people still be alive today? Yes. Again Japanese estimates of casulties if the homes islands had been invaded were at around 20 million. So what is worse here, one million allied casulties and 20 million Japanese due to invasion, of a couple of hundred thousand dropping twe bombs?
The palestinians are the aggressors, as again who started the conflict?
They did, and again how many would have died, if they had accepted the right of Israel to exist from the start.
That absurd view point to look as them as victims would be like claiming Nazi Germany as Victims for invading Poland and losing the war. Where again over a million German women were raped, countless civillians shot out of hand and 16 million Germans displaced. Now do you see the Germans complaining about this? Do you see them committing terrorism to Poland and Russia who carried out these attrocties?
So any view to victimhood by Arabs is a complete sham

[Eilzel]

Raggs if you are refering to me thinking we should feel guilt then I suggest you read again, because I said the exact opposite.

I also didn't say the railways were useless. I said they don't make up for our nation's crimes in their countries.

Read properly fgs.

[Raggamuffin]

Raggs if you are refering to me thinking we should feel guilt then I suggest you read again, because I said the exact opposite.

I also didn't say the railways were useless. I said they don't make up for our nation's crimes in their countries.

Read properly fgs.

It's not just railways - they were just an example. I don't think it's helpful to try to measure benefits against non-benefits really - one would go round in circles.

[Raggamuffin]

As for Veya's state of mind, his rants last night were comical in a way, but he's bordering on hate speech against a whole nation and an ethnic group - the English, and he's only just stopped short of saying that I should be targeted by terrorists. It's not the first time he's overstepped the mark either.

[Eilzel]

Whether its helpful or not, I was originally responding to tommy's claim that empire was wanted by natives.

[Raggamuffin]

Whether its helpful or not, I was originally responding to tommy's claim that empire was wanted by natives.

I've been responding to the claims of some that only bad things came out of the Empire. There has been no need for the level of hatred on the part of Veya in response to that.

[Raggamuffin]

I've also been addressing this idea of guilt, collective or otherwise.

[Eilzel]

I don't think anyone claimed 'only' bad things came out of the empire.

[Raggamuffin]

I don't think anyone claimed 'only' bad things came out of the empire.

You are joking, right?

[Eilzel]

People have highlighted the bad, but no one said NOTHING good came as a result. Show me where they did if I'm wrong.

[Raggamuffin]

People have highlighted the bad, but no one said NOTHING good came as a result. Show me where they did if I'm wrong.

Come off it. It's been one rant after another about how bad the British were, and still are. You even told Veya not to "lower" himself to the level of others after all his awful ranting as if he was merely responding to other bad stuff.

I've no more patience with you really.

[nicko]

Funny how these nations who we were supposed to "rape" came in their hundreds of thousands to help us in www2.

[Guest]

Yep, makes them forgiving and big people doesn't it.

[Eilzel]

So that'd be another capitulation raggs. A rant is not what I said. You and I both know it.

[Raggamuffin]

So that'd be another capitulation raggs. A rant is not what I said. You and I both know it.

No, it means I can't be arsed trawling back through the thread, and that I think you're enabling Veya to carry on ranting to the detriment of his mental health.

[Tommy Monk]

Funny how some think that history only started a couple of hundred years ago...

[Guest]

Funny how some think that history only started a couple of hundred years ago...

History for each of us starts the day we are born.

How did you learn anything Tommy and how did those who taught you lean anything?

Was it anything they themselves invented or created?

Or have you like the vast majority of people in life learnt off what a few innovative people have taught to others?

Imagine if they took your selfish approach to not share their wisdom?

How intelligent would you then be, without the help of others?

[veya_victaous]

Veya, had it not been for those first settlers, whether they stayed or not, then you wouldn't be there today. However you paint it you have Britain's 'evil' empire to thank for living in what you call paradise today. At the expense of the native people.

Tommy, I wasn't deliberately avoiding anything, I'm just not going to list every single nation that conquered or exploited. I mentioned Turkey, which under the Ottomans had the most expansive Muslim empire that world has ever seen.

The convicts stayed, the ones that took the wealth left. It is a PENAL colony not a free settlers colony.

And it is not about 'thank' it is what is, that is why guilt doesn't even come into it on a personal level for anyone. We are part of the advantaged few BECAUSE of the British empire and we should be doing what we can to make things right.

Also the reparations should not be paid to Australia or New Zealand
We have money we can look the indigenous after and follow a path of reparation.

it is the other little nations with the union jack on their flag that need reparations from the UK.  (and those that have changed the flag but were part of commonwealth) Currently we support nations like Kiribati (also most effected by Global warming and will go under soon) you guys should be putting in too. 

And here is a good chart to show the actually age of the crimes it doesn't even pretend to stop until ww2 (and even then it is because of the USA)

[veya_victaous]

Funny how these nations who we were supposed to "rape" came in their hundreds of thousands to help us in www2.

It's not really Funny... Or is it a joke
that others defended the British but when they need help the British whinge and shut the door.

thanks for highlighting why the Attitudes of Raggs is So Disgusting and obviously so offensive to the old commonwealth and why all the old commonwealth nations have a right to feel wronged and betrayed by the Modern British people.

Your penal Colony does more to help them then the supposed Motherland

[Raggamuffin]

Funny how these nations who we were supposed to "rape" came in their hundreds of thousands to help us in www2.

It's not really Funny... Or is it a joke
that others defended the British but when they need help the British whinge and shut the door.

thanks for highlighting why the Attitudes of Raggs is So Disgusting and obviously so offensive to the old commonwealth and why all the old commonwealth nations have a right to feel wronged and betrayed by the Modern British people.

Your penal Colony does more to help them then the supposed Motherland

Stop dragging me into your rants please. If you want to address what nicko said, confine yourself to doing so.

[Guest]

Why does veya think all people that came to Australia were convicts?
Your position today was born as well from the British Emprie which again you the same applies to you as to Tommy

History for each of us starts the day we are born.

How did you learn anything Veya and how did those who taught you learn anything?

Was it anything they themselves invented or created?

Or have you like the vast majority of people in life learnt off what a few innovative people have taught to others?

Imagine if they took your selfish approach to not share their wisdom?

How intelligent would you then be, without the help of others?

You do realise some of these innovative people were British?

[veya_victaous]

People that came on the first fleet were convicts or Rum corps Besides the few lords that came for governance.
free settlers didn't come for a couple of decades and even then they founded Adelaide they didn't come to Sydney for quite a while.


And Yes My Anglo grandfather is the author of most of the books used in universities regarding how to mine Australia and is unique stone structure.
I am employed to be an innovator, I take new technology to make new systems. I am part of team that innovate, code and implement solutions. I have worked on 2 of the largest technological deployments in the southern hemisphere.

I like everyone learn from those that have come before.
BUT if there is something that hasn't been solved yet is potentially an opportunity for me (in remote distributed management systems at least) to further my career.

Intelligence and education are 2 different things, one is nature and one is nurture. 
I have both but i have meet plenty of people with one or the other.
(I was very lucky to be chosen for a special high school for the academically gifted that gave me a far better education than I would have if my parents had to pay for it)

[veya_victaous]

Funny how these nations who we were supposed to "rape" came in their hundreds of thousands to help us in www2.

It's not really Funny... Or is it a joke
that others defended the British but when they need help the British whinge and shut the door.

thanks for highlighting why the Attitudes of Raggs is So Disgusting and obviously so offensive to the old commonwealth and why all the old commonwealth nations have a right to feel wronged and betrayed by the Modern British people.

Your penal Colony does more to help them then the supposed Motherland

Stop dragging me into your rants please. If you want to address what nicko said, confine yourself to doing so.

then stop being a caricature of evil.

I swear you are trying to out Do Marie Antoinette for Antagonizing those less fortunate.

[Guest]

Veya, lets face it most people conicted of crimes back then would not be convicted of crimes today, sent to Australia. For the better part of the 18th century the Uk was constantly drunk and hooked on gin.

There is fuck all difference between you or I based racially or ethnically, as we are fundementally of Eureopean cultural aspects with some other aspects thrown in, but it is secularism that what we all hold as dear. Which is the well being and equality of others. It was not born from religion this, but without religion. It took people to see wrongs, even if they were religious

All jokes aside, what you hold dear is based more off whaat are parents hold dear and then we decide and best choose ourself, which goes back to my original questions

History for each of us starts the day we are born.

How did you learn anything Veya and how did those who taught you learn anything?

Was it anything they themselves invented or created?

Or have you like the vast majority of people in life learnt off what a few innovative people have taught to others?

Imagine if they took your selfish approach to not share their wisdom?

How intelligent would you then be, without the help of others?

You do realise some of these innovative people were British?

[Guest]

Case in point, as barmy as Veya maybe, he actually has a kind heart.
He speaks some of the most daftest shit, but he fundementally cares, he is too passionate aboyt what he cares about and of that I respect.
That does not make him a bad person, just not able to see what gifts he has, that he does not put to better use.
He just gets carried away with the debate

[Tommy Monk]

Veya is a classic example of someone experiencing 'cognitive dissonance'...


On one hand he proclaims the greatness of Australia and on the other he condemns all things British etc. ..but then when you remind him that the great Australia he bangs on about today only exists because of the British involvement of the past... he goes into meltdown!!!

[Guest]

Veya is a classic example of someone experiencing 'cognitive dissonance'...


On one hand he proclaims the greatness of Australia and on the other he condemns all things British etc. ..but then when you remind him that the great Australia he bangs on about today only exists because of the British involvement of the past... he goes into meltdown!!!

Well here is a teaser Tommy, what does British mean to you and does that matter to you, if English?

[Guest]

Confusing I guess, I bet Victor knows what I mean..

Until tomorrow people

Night

[Tommy Monk]

It is veya who is confused...

[Guest]

It is veya who is confused...

Well considering you cannot answer a simple question on identity, would prove you ar confused.
As why did you not answer?

[veya_victaous]

Veya, lets face it most people conicted of crimes back then would not be convicted of crimes today, sent to Australia. For the better part of the 18th century the Uk was constantly drunk and hooked on gin.
YES Agreed which is why Tommy need to be told that the 'gifts' where not necessarily worth the price, I am sure many Indigenous Would love to magic the world back to before the European invasions, but most accept that can't... And it is absolutely disgusting to show as much disrespect and disregard for those that had to suffer and lose to make the world we have today

There is fuck all difference between you or I based racially or ethnically, as we are fundementally of Eureopean cultural aspects with some other aspects thrown in, but it is secularism that what we all hold as dear. Which is the well being and equality of others. It was not born from religion this, but without religion. It took people to see wrongs, even if they were religious
yes 100%

All jokes aside, what you hold dear is based more off whaat are parents hold dear and then we decide and best choose ourself, which goes back to my original questions

History for each of us starts the day we are born.

How did you learn anything Veya and how did those who taught you learn anything?

Was it anything they themselves invented or created?

Or have you like the vast majority of people in life learnt off what a few innovative people have taught to others?

Imagine if they took your selfish approach to not share their wisdom?

How intelligent would you then be, without the help of others?

You do realise some of these innovative people were British?

I answered this
I learned from those before but both people in my Family and Myself are Innovators and creators of knowledge by profession.

I don't know how you can say i don't share wisdom, I am part of a team that has facilitated one of the largest educational revolution in modern times.  over 1600 educational applications are now available to the students of my state because of code I have written and scripts I have made.

[Tommy Monk]

Stop twisting Dodge. .. the conundrum is for veya to answer...as he is the one who proclaims the greatness of the end result while condemning everything that gave this result...


I think veya needs to explain himself... as his position is completel madness! !!

[veya_victaous]

only exists because of the British involvement of the past

or better IN SPITE of British involvement in the past

YES we are a product of TRYING To Fix the crimes of empire.

this is the major difference, we openly acknowledge that our good position is founded on the suffering of others. As Such it is only Fair that we show charity and kindness to those that suffered or Suffer today because of the position their nations were left in.
Like the British Good position is founded of the EVEN greater suffering of an even greater number of peoples... and then your position is that it is unfair that you be asked to show them  charity and assistance.

[veya_victaous]

@didge
talk about timing

I just go a call from reception there was a delivery for me which is odd cause i don't get Physical deliveries..

I got sent a Box a chocolates and Christmas Card thanking me for one of the solutions I innovated earlier in the year.. (a tool to help facilitate teacher collaboration)

[Victorismyhero]

Ahhhh!

I have jusr realised why veys posts the shite he does...

he's a "coder" a programmer"

in other words a hairy pot smoking hippy, permanently enclosed in a fog of happy weed and strange symbols



they are VERY strange folks these programmers...tempremental too....

about as stable as sweating dynamite...and twice as touchy.....

I know...I had the thankless task of keeping a group of em focussed on a huge job...

their thinking works like this

On site engineer..."theres a problem with the program"

programmer (100 miles away in a warm snug office) what problem

engineer... "well its doing this"

programmer "well it cant do that"

engineer..."I'm telling you its doing this"

programmer "rubbish"

engineer "FFS , I'm sitting here watching it doing it"

programmer "I dont care what you are seeing...its not the program"

engineer...gritting his teeth "why not?"

programmer "because it cant do that"


yep....been there done that...nearly feckin kiiled the cnut when I got back

cost me 12 hrs on site finding and corecting the error.....and ...recoding in ...............HEX aagghhhhhhhhhh

[Eilzel]

Veya, we give foreign aid to many former colonies. We have spent a long time financially trying to help former colonies- we could stop- but we don't. Asking for relarations too? Come on. How about we stop the aid and call it reparations instead? Besides, many of the countries we give to are run by corrupt governments and the people in need lose out anyway.

[Victorismyhero]

I hate codeing...in any language...

but ASSEMBLER for gods sake...........

engineers didnt have any proper coding tools...this was an obsolete bit of kit...that somehow was looked after on some sort of "legacy contract"....

I wasnt even supposed to have a disassembler program in my kit....
but self preservation dictated .......

[veya_victaous]

Veya, we give foreign aid to many former colonies. We have spent a long time financially trying to help former colonies- we could stop- but we don't. Asking for relarations too? Come on. How about we stop the aid and call it reparations instead? Besides, many of the countries we give to are run by corrupt governments and the people in need lose out anyway.

That is just stuff British people say to make themselves feel better.

I think it is ridiculous how British people think they don't need to, that they have repaid even a fraction of what they need to, to actually be classified be Fair or good.

Yes You can Stop But then Britain cannot complain When People point out how shit and evil the nation is..

[Guest]

I don't think you can say we can paid people though the kindness of our hearts and it should all be forgotten now Les.

Even last year, the people we tortured in Kenya had to take us to court to try and get compensation:

https://www.rt.com/uk/200487-kenyans-sue-uk-government/

[Victorismyhero]

yeah? well I think UGG's tribe (who lived in the durham areas) should pay OGG's tribe who lived near sheffield umpteem billons in reparations for that raid carried out in 10,000 BCE

[Victorismyhero]

and italy must we us a fortune for what the romans did

not to mention norway and the like for all those viking raids

[veya_victaous]

I hate codeing...in any language...

but  ASSEMBLER for gods sake...........

engineers didnt have any proper coding tools...this was an obsolete bit of kit...that somehow was looked after on some sort of "legacy contract"....

I wasnt even supposed to have a disassembler program in my kit....
but self preservation dictated .......

I am not a programmer (not my primary role anyway).
I am a system developer and more involved with the human interactions with the system.
I end up doing a variety of things, but i guess I spend most of my time idiot proofing things (or trying to)
part of my job is 'translating' programmer/techie speak to managerial speak to Pleb speak.
this is why I call my self a technocrat, I am a technical person that can navigate the bureaucracy.

I actually don't know which side i like, as making a working solution is rewarding. but I feel I can achieve more in the non technical side.... but to do so i have to sit through so many meetings with idiots...

Also Previous role was on site support for a freight rail, I have done the similar only they were 3000km away and in an aircon office, While i was in a Dusty Rail yard up near Whyalla in the high 30's
Whyalla is known as a place the outback meets the sea, it really is the middle of nowhere, and i doubt anyone would live there if they didn't find coal and iron ore around there.

I actually really like the time i spent in South Australia for work, the climate is harsher than Sydney/NSW.
But it has some beautiful sites, I think i will remember driving along the edge of the red desert where it almost reaches the coast for the rest of my life one side silver-green plants a few trees then the ocean, the other red sands as far as the eyes can see.

[Eilzel]

Sass I didn't say it should be forgotten. I feel that you and Raggs are dealing in absolutes here. We should acknowledge that we as a nation are partly responsible for the current state of the world- but we shouldn't feel guilty, nor be 'expected' to pay anything. You and Raggs are on opposite ends of the spectrum, I'm somewhere in the middle.

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