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eddie wrote:Rags, if I've learned one thing about these alternative theories, it's that not everyone can turn away from what they're used to hearing/reading/believing.

I'm sensing that it's time for me to stop discussing this for now as it always puts people's backs up!
There's so much in it all that I often get weighed down by all the info myself and I don't  have the time nor the inclination to keep going round and round in any debate. I often piss off after a few merry go rounds.
I can't keep repeating myself.

I don't mind your theories. It was just you saying that I was believing what I read without questioning it which annoyed me. I've been very careful to question everything and to try to verify what I've read.

When this was live on TV, just as news broke, they cut to showing pre recorded footage and said they couldn't show anyhing live? The other anchorman said it's probably becasue they wanted all media helicopters and suchlike to not be getting in the way of the police helicopters....
They definitely said it, becaeue I wondered why. They showed OJ Simpson being chased live.

Is this footage from a police helicopter?

eddie wrote:When this was live on TV, just as news broke, they cut to showing pre recorded footage and said they couldn't show anyhing live? The other anchorman said it's probably becasue they wanted all media helicopters and suchlike to not be getting in the way of the police helicopters....
They definitely said it, becaeue I wondered why. They showed OJ Simpson being chased live.

Is this footage from a police helicopter?

The one I just posted? I don't think it's a police helicopter eddie. It's from KIRO TV. The vehicle and suspects had already been apprehended and they were looking for it.

It's a pity that nobody got the whole chase on film. I'm interested in the bullet holes in the windscreen of the SUV, and I was wondering how the final moments panned out. I think they shot the tyres out at some point. We didn't get to see the guy running from the SUV.

Yes, and in that footage from the helicopter searching for the SUV, the newscaster says "This...is obviously related to the earlier shooting..." @ +/- 215.

While that is not so obvious to me in fact, it does indicate he is talking about two different events. Thus he speaks of 'this actor' in order to differentiate from the shooting at the Inland Center. That would be my take, at least.

Original Quill wrote:Yes, and in that footage from the helicopter searching for the SUV, the newscaster says "This...is obviously related to the earlier shooting..."  @ +/- 215.  

While that is not so obvious to me in fact, it does indicate he is talking about two different events.  Thus he speaks of 'this actor' in order to differentiate from the shooting at the Inland Center.  That would be my take, at least.

It was pretty early on - nobody had approached the SUV when they were filming that. He's not the same guy who referred to the "actors". That was on MSNBC, and that was later on after they had closed in on the SUV.

Raggamuffin wrote:

Original Quill wrote:Yes, and in that footage from the helicopter searching for the SUV, the newscaster says "This...is obviously related to the earlier shooting..."  @ +/- 215.  

While that is not so obvious to me in fact, it does indicate he is talking about two different events.  Thus he speaks of 'this actor' in order to differentiate from the shooting at the Inland Center.  That would be my take, at least.

It was pretty early on - nobody had approached the SUV when they were filming that. He's not the same guy who referred to the "actors". That was on MSNBC, and that was later on after they had closed in on the SUV.

Oh, OK...I just assumed.

Why didn't they show us the live footage whilst it was happening? They never said why they cut from live TV to pre-recorded clips, apart from the suggestion that they didn't want media helicopters interfering with police ones?
So there obviously was media helicopters filming.
Why did they cut from live TV?

Original Quill wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:

It was pretty early on - nobody had approached the SUV when they were filming that. He's not the same guy who referred to the "actors". That was on MSNBC, and that was later on after they had closed in on the SUV.

Oh, OK...I just assumed.

Sorry, maybe I confused the issue.

I just liked that one because the guy was so excited and he was trying really hard to find that SUV.

Here's another longer video from ABC. You can see them closing in on the SUV in this one. None of the films go very close to the guy in the road, and in this video they film it from behind a tree at one point because it's a "very graphic situation" as he puts it. I think I can see a gun in the road though.

eddie wrote:Why didn't they show us the live footage whilst it was happening? They never said why they cut from live TV to pre-recorded clips, apart from the suggestion that they didn't want media helicopters interfering with police ones?
So there obviously was media helicopters filming.
Why did they cut from live TV?

I think they did eddie. I didn't see live footage myself, but I wasn't looking for it at the time. Were you watching it live?

Raggamuffin wrote:

eddie wrote:Why didn't they show us the live footage whilst it was happening? They never said why they cut from live TV to pre-recorded clips, apart from the suggestion that they didn't want media helicopters interfering with police ones?
So there obviously was media helicopters filming.
Why did they cut from live TV?

I think they did eddie. I didn't see live footage myself, but I wasn't looking for it at the time. Were you watching it live?

Yes, that's what I'm saying. It just cut.

eddie wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:

I think they did eddie. I didn't see live footage myself, but I wasn't looking for it at the time. Were you watching it live?

Yes, that's what I'm saying. It just cut.

On the KIRO video? That's just from You Tube - someone put it on there and probably just didn't put it all on.

eddie wrote:Why didn't they show us the live footage whilst it was happening? They never said why they cut from live TV to pre-recorded clips, apart from the suggestion that they didn't want media helicopters interfering with police ones?
So there obviously was media helicopters filming.
Why did they cut from live TV?

Ok, lets put this to bed. I also was watching live footage as it was happening on an American channel. The guy who was in the helicopter that was filming it, said that once the police closed in on the car with the possibility they would take a dead body out of the car, they would have to cut away from live footage. And that's exactly what they did at this point in this photo. They cut live footage because the police were taking a body out of the car.

Yes, there are photos of Malik lying in the road, but there's no footage of them getting her out of the car.

Christie wrote:

eddie wrote:Why didn't they show us the live footage whilst it was happening? They never said why they cut from live TV to pre-recorded clips, apart from the suggestion that they didn't want media helicopters interfering with police ones?
So there obviously was media helicopters filming.
Why did they cut from live TV?

Ok, lets put this to bed. I also was watching live footage as it was happening on an American channel. The guy who was in the helicopter that was filming it, said that once the police closed in on the car with the possibility they would take a dead body out of the car, they would have to cut away from live footage. And that's exactly what they did at this point in this photo. They cut live footage because the police were taking a body out of the car.

Christie I was watching Sky news and that didn't happen.
What happened was they cut just after the shooting - and then just pre-recorded clips
There was no live car chase

I watched it too.  What you've got there, Christie, is a shot from the video from KNBC, the LA-affiliated channel with NBC.  Somebody might also have KABC, which is the ABC channel.

KIRO is a local, unaffiliated Los Angeles channel, which happened to be in the area and picked up the action with it's helicopter and camera crew.  Lucky break...many other stations took clips from KIRO and used them in their after-the-fact stories.

The KIRO video is the one that starts with the newscaster speaking about following the armored vehicle in order to find the suspect vehicle.  It is the freshest, most original of the clips.  But I wish it had continued and not cut away.  Incidentally, who told them to cut away?  I doubt they did that on their own.

eddie wrote:

Christie wrote:

Ok, lets put this to bed. I also was watching live footage as it was happening on an American channel. The guy who was in the helicopter that was filming it, said that once the police closed in on the car with the possibility they would take a dead body out of the car, they would have to cut away from live footage. And that's exactly what they did at this point in this photo. They cut live footage because the police were taking a body out of the car.

Christie I was watching Sky news and that didn't happen.
What happened was they cut just after the shooting - and then just pre-recorded clips
There was no live car chase

I watched live stream from American news channel, much more informative than Sky. Once they cut the live footage of that particular scene, they then moved onto live footage of swat teams searching nearby houses looking for the third shooter, that they thought there was at the time.

The ABC one looks live - it's got the time on it - 3.13.

I wouldn't know because I wasn't watching anything live.

Original Quill wrote:I watched it too.  What you've got there, Christie, is a shot from the video from KNBC, the LA-affiliated channel with NBC.  Somebody might also have KABC, which is the ABC channel.

KIRO is a local, unaffiliated Los Angeles channel, which happened to be in the area and picked up the action with it's helicopter and camera crew.  Lucky break...many other stations took clips from KIRO and used them in their after-the-fact stories.

The KIRO video is the one that starts with the newscaster speaking about following the armored vehicle in order to find the suspect vehicle.  It is the freshest, most original of the clips.  But I wish it had continued and not cut away.  Incidentally, who told them to cut away?  I doubt they did that on their own.

Yes, I'm sure I watched it live on ABC channel Quill. It was the guy doing the commentary in the helicopter that said they would have to cut away if the police started to pull a body out the car.

Christie wrote:

Original Quill wrote:I watched it too.  What you've got there, Christie, is a shot from the video from KNBC, the LA-affiliated channel with NBC.  Somebody might also have KABC, which is the ABC channel.

KIRO is a local, unaffiliated Los Angeles channel, which happened to be in the area and picked up the action with it's helicopter and camera crew.  Lucky break...many other stations took clips from KIRO and used them in their after-the-fact stories.

The KIRO video is the one that starts with the newscaster speaking about following the armored vehicle in order to find the suspect vehicle.  It is the freshest, most original of the clips.  But I wish it had continued and not cut away.  Incidentally, who told them to cut away?  I doubt they did that on their own.

Yes, I'm sure I watched it live on ABC channel Quill. It was the guy doing the commentary in the helicopter that said they would have to cut away if the police started to pull a body out the car.

Too bad, because they are actually cutting out some of the action.  Some questions might be answered in the missing footage.  

I don't like all this censorship on media TV...hey, I can take it, I ain't no girly-boy.  I just don't want to miss anything.

Original Quill wrote:

Christie wrote:

Yes, I'm sure I watched it live on ABC channel Quill. It was the guy doing the commentary in the helicopter that said they would have to cut away if the police started to pull a body out the car.

Too bad, because they are actually cutting out some of the action.  Some questions might be answered in the missing footage.  

I don't like all this censorship on media TV...hey, I can take it, I ain't no girly-boy.  I just don't want to miss anything.

Yes. We might have been able to see them handcuffing Karook, and those rumours about the handcuffs would have been dispelled.

Raggamuffin wrote:

Original Quill wrote:

Too bad, because they are actually cutting out some of the action.  Some questions might be answered in the missing footage.  

I don't like all this censorship on media TV...hey, I can take it, I ain't no girly-boy.  I just don't want to miss anything.

Yes. We might have been able to see them handcuffing Karook, and those rumours about the handcuffs would have been dispelled.

XACTLY what I was thinking! We could have dismissed (or accounted) for a whole piece of the action.

And another thing: cops are sometimes becoming players in these incidents. I don't want to be played.

In the photo of Malik, what is that rectangular thing on her back? I'll just put a link in case anyone is sensitive.

http://media.breitbart.com/media/2015/12/Tashfeen-Malik-Death-Picture.jpg

Interesting footage and particularly the police audio as it happened

Raggamuffin wrote:In the photo of Malik, what is that rectangular thing on her back? I'll just put a link in case anyone is sensitive.

http://media.breitbart.com/media/2015/12/Tashfeen-Malik-Death-Picture.jpg

The black rectangle? I don't know. Bad picture...too fuzzy. It looks like something, sometimes, then it looks like a tattoo.

And where's her handcuffs? Curiouser and curiouser.

Original Quill wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:In the photo of Malik, what is that rectangular thing on her back? I'll just put a link in case anyone is sensitive.

http://media.breitbart.com/media/2015/12/Tashfeen-Malik-Death-Picture.jpg

The black rectangle?  I don't know.  Bad picture...too fuzzy.  It looks like something, sometimes, then it looks like a tattoo.

And where's her handcuffs?  Curiouser and curiouser.

I wondered that, but looking at the photo, it's been some time since they pulled her out so maybe they cuffed her and then took them off to search her. It looks like she's been partly undressed.

Christie wrote:Interesting footage and particularly the police audio as it happened

Yes. I heard him request a BearCat. They got a Tac-Cat in as well. I think that's what they're called anyway.

Christie wrote:Interesting footage and particularly the police audio as it happened

Interesting. Where is the third guy, seen running away? Redlands Police clearly remarked about him.

And...the rear/left door is open throughout. Now, one body is across the street, and the female is in the front/passenger seat. Who was in the back of the car? He was seen, according to Redlands PD, running south down the alley.

Original Quill wrote:

Christie wrote:Interesting footage and particularly the police audio as it happened

Interesting.  Where is the third guy, seen running away?  Redlands Police clearly remarked about him.  

And...the rear/left door is open throughout.  Now, one body is across the street, and the female is in the front/passenger seat.  Who was in the back of the car?  He was seen, according to Redlands PD, running south down the alley.

I mentioned the back left door being open before. I think Malik opened it to try to escape but got shot before she could do so. I think she was in the back.

There was a guy who ran away, but he was ruled out. I think he was just a guy running away from the shooting or something. There aren't many details about that.

Raggamuffin wrote:

Christie wrote:Interesting footage and particularly the police audio as it happened

Yes. I heard him request a BearCat. They got a Tac-Cat in as well. I think that's what they're called anyway.

Daft me thought they said a Meerkat lol . So I looked it up and there is such an army vehicle, but not the one they were using that day.

Christie wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:

Yes. I heard him request a BearCat. They got a Tac-Cat in as well. I think that's what they're called anyway.

Daft me thought they said a Meerkat lol . So I looked it up and there is such an army vehicle, but not the one they were using that day.

I think those two vehicles which closed in on the SUV were BearCats. Then they got a Tac-Cat which pulled in at a right angle to the SUV.

Raggamuffin wrote:

Original Quill wrote:

Interesting.  Where is the third guy, seen running away?  Redlands Police clearly remarked about him.  

And...the rear/left door is open throughout.  Now, one body is across the street, and the female is in the front/passenger seat.  Who was in the back of the car?  He was seen, according to Redlands PD, running south down the alley.

I mentioned the back left door being open before. I think Malik opened it to try to escape but got shot before she could do so. I think she was in the back.

There was a guy who ran away, but he was ruled out. I think he was just a guy running away from the shooting or something. There aren't many details about that.

Malik was in the front, passenger seat. The door left open was across the vehicle, and behind the driver. Why would she open that particular door? Besides, witnesses said she was hunched over the seatback, firing her weapon out the back window.

Original Quill wrote:

Christie wrote:Interesting footage and particularly the police audio as it happened

Interesting.  Where is the third guy, seen running away?  Redlands Police clearly remarked about him.  

And...the rear/left door is open throughout.  Now, one body is across the street, and the female is in the front/passenger seat.  Who was in the back of the car?  He was seen, according to Redlands PD, running south down the alley.

I always thought the female was in the back seat shooting out the back window, while her husband drove. The police in that video discount the guy seen running as just a 'citizen'.

Original Quill wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:

I mentioned the back left door being open before. I think Malik opened it to try to escape but got shot before she could do so. I think she was in the back.

There was a guy who ran away, but he was ruled out. I think he was just a guy running away from the shooting or something. There aren't many details about that.

Malik was in the front, passenger seat.  The door left open was across the vehicle, and behind the driver.  Why would she open that particular door?  Besides, witnesses said she was hunched over the seatback, firing her weapon out the back window.

How do you know she was in the front? I think she was in the back seat shooting out the back window. She would open the back door if that's where she was.

Do you have a link to the witnesses saying she was in the front passenger seat Quill?

I did consider the possibility of another person in the car, but the door isn't wide open enough for anyone to get out of it anyway.

Raggamuffin wrote:

Christie wrote:

Daft me thought they said a Meerkat lol . So I looked it up and there is such an army vehicle, but not the one they were using that day.

I think those two vehicles which closed in on the SUV were BearCats. Then they got a Tac-Cat which pulled in at a right angle to the SUV.

Yes, and in the live footage that I watched, the Tac-Cat drew in close in the middle to where it is now in that photo, waited a few minutes, then drove out again alongside the Beercat on the right. After about 5 minutes the Tac-Cat then drew back into middle position again, as close as possible to the car and it was just a few minutes later that they decided to cut the live footage.

Christie wrote:

Original Quill wrote:

Interesting.  Where is the third guy, seen running away?  Redlands Police clearly remarked about him.  

And...the rear/left door is open throughout.  Now, one body is across the street, and the female is in the front/passenger seat.  Who was in the back of the car?  He was seen, according to Redlands PD, running south down the alley.

I always thought the female was in the back seat shooting out the back window, while her husband drove. The police in that video discount the guy seen running as just a 'citizen'.

If she was in the backseat, that's where I'm wrong. But I understood her to be in the front/passenger seat.

And, the radio later discounts the runner; but that's SB Police. Redlands is a little suburb of SB, to the east. The Farooks live in Redlands and I believe this action took place in Redlands. It was the Redlands PD who said there was a runner, and they would know the area better.

Raggamuffin wrote:

Original Quill wrote:

Malik was in the front, passenger seat.  The door left open was across the vehicle, and behind the driver.  Why would she open that particular door?  Besides, witnesses said she was hunched over the seatback, firing her weapon out the back window.

How do you know she was in the front? I think she was in the back seat shooting out the back window. She would open the back door if that's where she was.

Correct. In the live footage they stated that the other body (Malik) was in the back seat. This was when the Beercats and the Tac- Cat were in position.

Original Quill wrote:

Christie wrote:

I always thought the female was in the back seat shooting out the back window, while her husband drove. The police in that video discount the guy seen running as just a 'citizen'.

If she was in the backseat, that's where I'm wrong.  But I understood her to be in the front/passenger seat.

And,  the radio later discounts the runner; but that's SB Police.  Redlands is a little suburb of SB, to the east.  The Farooks live in Redlands and I believe this action took place in Redlands.  It was the Redlands PD who said there was a runner, and they would know the area better.

I'd be interested in any witnesses saying she was in the passenger seat shooting out the back. So far, I haven't seen anyone say that they actually saw her shooting from the SUV.

I hadn't heard that someone ran off in Redlands - you mean from the house?

Raggamuffin wrote:Do you have a link to the witnesses saying she was in the front passenger seat Quill?

I did consider the possibility of another person in the car, but the door isn't wide  open enough for anyone to get out of it anyway.

Unless, s/he flung the door as making a get-away.

I have been racking my for where I got the idea she was in the front/passenger seat. It may have been in the narrative of the newscaster during the live action. Anyway, I can't guarantee it at this point.

Raggamuffin wrote:

Original Quill wrote:

If she was in the backseat, that's where I'm wrong.  But I understood her to be in the front/passenger seat.

And,  the radio later discounts the runner; but that's SB Police.  Redlands is a little suburb of SB, to the east.  The Farooks live in Redlands and I believe this action took place in Redlands.  It was the Redlands PD who said there was a runner, and they would know the area better.

I'd be interested in any witnesses saying she was in the passenger seat shooting out the back. So far, I haven't seen anyone say that they actually saw her shooting from the SUV.

I hadn't heard that someone ran off in Redlands - you mean from the house?

No, it was on the police radio, early on. Redlands police was reporting one runner, who headed down the ally. And you see an ally just to the right of the SUV, heading south (away from the camera).

Original Quill wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:Do you have a link to the witnesses saying she was in the front passenger seat Quill?

I did consider the possibility of another person in the car, but the door isn't wide  open enough for anyone to get out of it anyway.

Unless, s/he flung the door as making a get-away.

I have been racking my for where I got the idea she was in the front/passenger seat.  It may have been in the narrative of the newscaster during the live action.  Anyway, I can't guarantee it at this point.

She didn't do that because she was found in the car. I think one would probably assume that she was in the passenger seat - I did until I saw that the back door was ajar and concluded that she opened it with a view to escaping.

Farook was clearly driving and did fling the driver's door open.

Original Quill wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:

I'd be interested in any witnesses saying she was in the passenger seat shooting out the back. So far, I haven't seen anyone say that they actually saw her shooting from the SUV.

I hadn't heard that someone ran off in Redlands - you mean from the house?

No, it was on the police radio, early on.  Redlands police was reporting one runner, who headed down the ally.  And you see an ally just to the right of the SUV, heading south (away from the camera).

The SUV wasn't in Redlands at the end though.

Did anyone else see this report? I honestly think that Tashleen Malik was the operative behind it all and not her husband.


The bloodthirsty bride who carried out the San Bernardino shootings pulled the trigger first after her husband appeared to “hesitate” before firing on his colleagues, according to a new report.

Witnesses who survived the carnage told investigators Tashfeen Malik, 29, and her husband, Syed Farook, 28, prepared to open fire from opposite sides of a door to the conference room in the Inland Regional Center, The Sunday Times of London reported.

Malik assumed a firing stance and blasted a group of workers near a Christmas tree as Farook hesitated for a moment — perhaps temporarily losing his nerve or looking for a specific person, according to the report.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/shooter-tashfeen-malik-wrote-extremist-facebook-messages-article-1.2456784

I can't see an alley.

Christie wrote:Did anyone else see this report? I honestly think that Tashleen Malik was the operative behind it all and not her husband.


The bloodthirsty bride who carried out the San Bernardino shootings pulled the trigger first after her husband appeared to “hesitate” before firing on his colleagues, according to a new report.

Witnesses who survived the carnage told investigators Tashfeen Malik, 29, and her husband, Syed Farook, 28, prepared to open fire from opposite sides of a door to the conference room in the Inland Regional Center, The Sunday Times of London reported.

Malik assumed a firing stance and blasted a group of workers near a Christmas tree as Farook hesitated for a moment — perhaps temporarily losing his nerve or looking for a specific person, according to the report.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/shooter-tashfeen-malik-wrote-extremist-facebook-messages-article-1.2456784

I read something like that before. That article suggests that witnesses knew which one of the shooters was a woman then.

She was quite small in stature going by this photo, for those wondering about the size of her.

Raggamuffin wrote:

Original Quill wrote:

No, it was on the police radio, early on.  Redlands police was reporting one runner, who headed down the ally.  And you see an ally just to the right of the SUV, heading south (away from the camera).

The SUV wasn't in Redlands at the end though.

But it was just nearby...so much so, that Redlands PD was on the scene before SB PD. I don't know where the boundary is, precisely. But Redlands Town Center is on Alabama Street, just south of SB Avenue. I imagine the PD headquarters is there. It looks to be only 2-blocks from the SB border.

Christie wrote:Did anyone else see this report? I honestly think that Tashleen Malik was the operative behind it all and not her husband.


The bloodthirsty bride who carried out the San Bernardino shootings pulled the trigger first after her husband appeared to “hesitate” before firing on his colleagues, according to a new report.

Witnesses who survived the carnage told investigators Tashfeen Malik, 29, and her husband, Syed Farook, 28, prepared to open fire from opposite sides of a door to the conference room in the Inland Regional Center, The Sunday Times of London reported.

Malik assumed a firing stance and blasted a group of workers near a Christmas tree as Farook hesitated for a moment — perhaps temporarily losing his nerve or looking for a specific person, according to the report.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/shooter-tashfeen-malik-wrote-extremist-facebook-messages-article-1.2456784

It's weird that those witnesses knew that the shooter who hesitated was a man and that the first shooter was a woman, when other witnesses saw three athletically built men.

Raggamuffin wrote:I can't see an alley.

It was either on the KIRO video or the KABC video. Early on, the camera is panning around just before zooming in on the SUV. To the right you see a house, an alley, and then a lawn or some sort of expanse, and I believe a set-back house. The alley heads south, directly away from the camera.

eddie wrote:

Christie wrote:Did anyone else see this report? I honestly think that Tashleen Malik was the operative behind it all and not her husband.


The bloodthirsty bride who carried out the San Bernardino shootings pulled the trigger first after her husband appeared to “hesitate” before firing on his colleagues, according to a new report.

Witnesses who survived the carnage told investigators Tashfeen Malik, 29, and her husband, Syed Farook, 28, prepared to open fire from opposite sides of a door to the conference room in the Inland Regional Center, The Sunday Times of London reported.

Malik assumed a firing stance and blasted a group of workers near a Christmas tree as Farook hesitated for a moment — perhaps temporarily losing his nerve or looking for a specific person, according to the report.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/shooter-tashfeen-malik-wrote-extremist-facebook-messages-article-1.2456784

It's weird that those witnesses knew that the shooter who hesitated was a man and that the first shooter was a woman, when other witnesses saw three athletically built men.

Yep. To me, too.