South Carolina church shooting: Nine killed in Charleston

First topic message reminder :

Nine people have died in a shooting at a historic African-American church in Charleston in the US state of South Carolina, officials say.
City police chief Gregory Mullen said eight of the victims were killed inside the Emanuel African Methodist Episcopal Church on Thursday evening, while another person died shortly afterwards.
Police are now searching for a white male suspect in his 20s.
"I do believe it was a hate crime," Mr Mullen said.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-33179019

Raggamuffin wrote:

Cuchulain wrote:


Wrong again.

Things in common.

Both innocent.
Both unarmed.
Both Black.
Both stereotyped.
Both singled out.

Yes the facts do speak for themselves, Zimmerman singled out an innocent black unarmed teenager who would still be alive today if not for the fact Zimmerman has anger issues, wrongly views blacks as criminals by his admission by his statement to the Police on his call using the word "they". TM had committed no crime but in Zimmerman's mind he had because he was black and hence why he lost control of the situation with anger.. No doubt you would start to run from someone following you if we go by the phone conversation with TM's girlfriend which supports the car slowly following him, which is hearsay, but would make sense as to why TM started to run feeling threatened. Though you would not understand this feeling not being black living in America. Thus Zimmerman ignored the Police to remain where he was tried to apprehend and innocent child, TM is scared for his life struggles and is shot dead by the Zimmerman. There is no doubt Zimmerman is guilty of killing TM and only because the defense was able to offer doubt by self defense did he get off being convicted. It is far easier to defend someone than it is to convict and where most of the evidence comes from someone who stereotypes black people and has anger issues makes the case even harder to convict that person.

Let's deal with the use of the word "they" first.  This is what Zimmerman said:

"These assholes, they always get away."

He had just told the dispatcher that there had been a number of break ins in his area, so clearly that's what he meant when he said "they".  

I have no problem with your claim that Trayvon felt threatened. Yes, he realised that Zimmerman was watching him from his car, and yes, one thing Trayvon could have done is run home. The other thing he could have done is face the person he saw as a threat.

You say he ran, and Zimmerman also said he ran, but the problem is that he didn't run home. If he had, he wouldn't have been outside Jonathan Good's house. Remember that Zimmerman was in his car when Trayvon ran - or do you dispute that? Please explain how Zimmerman managed to catch up with him whilst talking on the phone to the dispatcher.

Do you take the view that it was Zimmerman on top of Trayvon Martin, and that he then stepped back and shot him?

Perhaps you could explain the route you think Zimmerman and Trayvon took in order  to put it all in context.

Wrong.
It can only mean "Black"
as seen it can not mean criminal, because criminals do not always get away.
This has been explained before to you.
There is clear evidence there he profiled TM as a criminal because he was black and classed him as a criminal and not even a suspect but such a statement.
The rest of your post is just made up babble.
We know for a fact there was a scuffle between each of them and the recording states he ran after him in his own words.
So the distance between them clearly was no distance at all. So claims to where Zimmereman was are clearly babble also.
You are not taking into account how he managed to catch him. Which would suggest TM was not running and Zimmerman ran to catch up to him and thus had been monitoring him the whole time and follwoing him. If Zimmerman was staionary to the first part of the call, and TM is walking it makes sense he had moved around half a distance away from Zimmerman which then had him run after him to stop him, because he wrongly sterotyped him because he was black.





7:10:16pm: Forty-five seconds after the phone call begins, Zimmerman reports that Trayvon is “here now,” indicating possibly that Trayvon was moving while Zimmerman was not. It’s possible Zimmerman’s car was parked at all times during his phone call to the police.

• Zimmerman: “He’s here now … he’s just staring.”
  

7:10:20pm: Zimmerman’s phone call to police indicates that at this time, Trayvon becomes aware of the fact that Zimmerman is watching him. The two stare at one another, and Trayvon keeps walking.

• Zimmerman: “Now he’s staring at me.”
  

Cuchulain wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:

Let's deal with the use of the word "they" first.  This is what Zimmerman said:

"These assholes, they always get away."

He had just told the dispatcher that there had been a number of break ins in his area, so clearly that's what he meant when he said "they".  

I have no problem with your claim that Trayvon felt threatened. Yes, he realised that Zimmerman was watching him from his car, and yes, one thing Trayvon could have done is run home. The other thing he could have done is face the person he saw as a threat.

You say he ran, and Zimmerman also said he ran, but the problem is that he didn't run home. If he had, he wouldn't have been outside Jonathan Good's house. Remember that Zimmerman was in his car when Trayvon ran - or do you dispute that? Please explain how Zimmerman managed to catch up with him whilst talking on the phone to the dispatcher.

Do you take the view that it was Zimmerman on top of Trayvon Martin, and that he then stepped back and shot him?

Perhaps you could explain the route you think Zimmerman and Trayvon took in order  to put it all in context.

Wrong.
It can only mean "Black"
as seen it can not mean criminal, because criminals do not always get away.
This has been explained before to you.
There is clear evidence there he profiled TM as a criminal because he was black and classed him as a criminal and not even a suspect but such a statement.
The rest of your post is just made up babble.

I disagree with your intepretation of the word "they". There had been a number of break ins and incidents in the area, and the perpetrators were not caught - ie, they got away. Zimmerman called these people "assholes".

I'll ask you not to put me down when discussing this. I have done a lot of research into this, and I'm interested in discussing the evidence, but do not put me down, otherwise the discussion will be at an end.

Raggamuffin wrote:

Cuchulain wrote:

Wrong.
It can only mean "Black"
as seen it can not mean criminal, because criminals do not always get away.
This has been explained before to you.
There is clear evidence there he profiled TM as a criminal because he was black and classed him as a criminal and not even a suspect but such a statement.
The rest of your post is just made up babble.

I disagree with your intepretation of the word "they". There had been a number of break ins and incidents in the area, and the perpetrators were not caught - ie, they got away. Zimmerman called these people "assholes".

I'll ask you not to put me down when discussing this. I have done a lot of research into this, and I'm interested in discussing the evidence, but do not put me down, otherwise the discussion will be at an end.

You can disagree all you like but on at least 2 previous occasions he had phoned in claiming other black youths as suspect.
So the evidence is pointing again to how Zimmerman is clearly classing any black youth as a suspect and is clearly referring to blacks by "they".
This is also backed by my view how he has anger issues and went after TM.
If you say something that is babble I will say its babble due to the fact it is. You may well have researched this as I and others have, that does not mean you are looking at the evidence correctly.
Whether you want to debate this is not my concern, what is vital here is to clearly understand the Character of Zimmerman who is responsible for the boy dying. Like I say, if he had not allowed his anger to get the better of him, then chase and confront TM shows he caused the situation to happen

Cuchulain wrote:


We know for a fact there was a scuffle between each of them and the recording states he ran after him in his own words.
So the distance between them clearly was no distance at all. So claims to where Zimmereman was are clearly babble also.
You are not taking into account how he managed to catch him. Which would suggest TM was not running and Zimmerman ran to catch up to him and thus had been monitoring him the whole time and follwoing him. If Zimmerman was staionary to the first part of the call, and TM is walking it makes sense he had moved around half a distance away from Zimmerman which then had him run after him to stop him, because he wrongly sterotyped him because he was black.





7:10:16pm: Forty-five seconds after the phone call begins, Zimmerman reports that Trayvon is “here now,” indicating possibly that Trayvon was moving while Zimmerman was not. It’s possible Zimmerman’s car was parked at all times during his phone call to the police.

• Zimmerman: “He’s here now … he’s just staring.”
  

7:10:20pm: Zimmerman’s phone call to police indicates that at this time, Trayvon becomes aware of the fact that Zimmerman is watching him. The two stare at one another, and Trayvon keeps walking.

• Zimmerman: “Now he’s staring at me.”
  

Zimmerman did not say that he "ran" after Trayvon, he merely agreed that he was following him. The issue here is how long he followed him for, and whether he lost sight of him or not, and why he lost sight of him.

You say that claims of where Zimmerman was are "babble", which is why the map and route are very important, and it's why the location of Zimmerman's vehicle is very important.

You said previously that Trayvon ran, and now you say he didn't. Which is it?

I have agreed that Trayvon knew Zimmermam was watching him from his car. That is not in dispute.

Re the map you have posted, do you agree that that is where Zimmerman parked his vehicle? Would you also agree that he got out of that truck to follow Trayvon, and spoke for a further one minute and 54 seconds to the dispatcher? Where do you think Zimmerman was when he continued to talk to the dispatcher? Where do you think Trayvon was during that one minute and 54 seconds?

Cuchulain wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:

I disagree with your intepretation of the word "they". There had been a number of break ins and incidents in the area, and the perpetrators were not caught - ie, they got away. Zimmerman called these people "assholes".

I'll ask you not to put me down when discussing this. I have done a lot of research into this, and I'm interested in discussing the evidence, but do not put me down, otherwise the discussion will be at an end.

You can disagree all you like but on at least 2 previous occasions he had phoned in claiming other black youths as suspect.
So the evidence is pointing again to how Zimmerman is clearly classing any black youth as a suspect and is clearly referring to blacks by "they".
This is also backed by my view how he has anger issues and went after TM.
If you say something that is babble I will say its babble due to the fact it is. You may well have researched this as I and others have, that does not mean you are looking at the evidence correctly.
Whether you want to debate this is not my concern, what is vital here is to clearly understand the Character of Zimmerman who is responsible for the boy dying. Like I say, if he had not allowed his anger to get the better of him, then chase and confront TM shows he caused the situation to happen

No, he's not classing black people as "they". He's talking about petty criminals, which may well include black people, or young people, or young people wearing hoodies - whatever. I don't think it's that important tbh.

Did he sound angry to you during that phone call? He didn't sound angry to me. He sounded like a person who would really like to help the police catch someone who he considered was up to no good.

I won't tell you that your posts are "babble" if you extend the same courtesy to me. Clearly, there is an issue with interpretation of the facts here, and that can be discussed, but if you dismiss my interpretation as "babble", we won't get very far. Try to change your habit of being patronising just this once.

I agree that it's important to consider the personality of George Zimmerman, and that is up for discussion.

I see and hear a man who is a bit of a curtain twitcher. Perhaps he's a wannabe cop and would like to think that he helped his neighbourhood by preventing these break ins. He would like the people in that neighbourhood to see him as that person. None of that indicates that he is a man who deliberately wants to shoot a person just because they're black.

Raggamuffin wrote:

Cuchulain wrote:


We know for a fact there was a scuffle between each of them and the recording states he ran after him in his own words.
So the distance between them clearly was no distance at all. So claims to where Zimmereman was are clearly babble also.
You are not taking into account how he managed to catch him. Which would suggest TM was not running and Zimmerman ran to catch up to him and thus had been monitoring him the whole time and follwoing him. If Zimmerman was staionary to the first part of the call, and TM is walking it makes sense he had moved around half a distance away from Zimmerman which then had him run after him to stop him, because he wrongly sterotyped him because he was black.





7:10:16pm: Forty-five seconds after the phone call begins, Zimmerman reports that Trayvon is “here now,” indicating possibly that Trayvon was moving while Zimmerman was not. It’s possible Zimmerman’s car was parked at all times during his phone call to the police.

• Zimmerman: “He’s here now … he’s just staring.”
  

7:10:20pm: Zimmerman’s phone call to police indicates that at this time, Trayvon becomes aware of the fact that Zimmerman is watching him. The two stare at one another, and Trayvon keeps walking.

• Zimmerman: “Now he’s staring at me.”
  

Zimmerman did not say that he "ran" after Trayvon, he merely agreed that he was following him. The issue here is how long he followed him for, and whether he lost sight of him or not, and why he lost sight of him.

You say that claims of where Zimmerman was are "babble", which is why the map and route are very important, and it's why the location of Zimmerman's vehicle is very important.  

You said previously that Trayvon ran, and now you say he didn't. Which is it?

I have agreed that Trayvon knew Zimmermam was watching him from his car. That is not in dispute.

Re the map you have posted, do you agree that that is where Zimmerman parked his vehicle? Would you also agree that he got out of that truck to follow Trayvon, and spoke for a further one minute and 54 seconds to the dispatcher? Where do you think Zimmerman was when he continued to talk to the dispatcher? Where do you think Trayvon was during that one minute and 54 seconds?

He certainly ran after him as this can be easily assertained from the phone call where he sounds breathless.
Why would he breathelss walking, that just does not make any sense.
I doubt TM ran but speeded up his walk.
Again you are not taking into account the distances here and at least now you are basiically admitted he was stalking him
TM was walking the whole time, which is backed up by the telephone call with his girlfriend who advised him to run.
Clearly at some point Zimmerman lost sight of TM which is also recorded on the calls. This in the area would happen, where he then comes upon TM a small time after this. So again there is clear intent there that Zimmerman went after TM, and that he was running as it is recorded with him sounding breathless.

Here is a recording of the 911 call.

Raggamuffin wrote:I agree that it's important to consider the personality of George Zimmerman, and that is up for discussion.

I see and hear a man who is a bit of a curtain twitcher. Perhaps he's a wannabe cop and would like to think that he helped his neighbourhood by preventing these break ins. He would like the people in that neighbourhood to see him as that person. None of that indicates that he is a man who deliberately wants to shoot a person just because they're black.

That is ignoring many factors like his knon violent recorded acts.
He may well want to be seen as a criminal catcher but as seen he clearly profiled young blacks as criminals based on the evidence.
Clearly a man with anger issues and who as seen cannot control his anger is a loose cannon.
If as seen he followed TM which he did, and ignored the Police, plus his views made of them being arseholes, then clearly his anger has control of him. This greatly increases the chances of Zimmerman making a further irrational act.

Raggamuffin wrote:Here is a recording of the 911 call.

Already have that thank you which backs my point on him being breathless or are you denying that now?

Cuchulain wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:

Zimmerman did not say that he "ran" after Trayvon, he merely agreed that he was following him. The issue here is how long he followed him for, and whether he lost sight of him or not, and why he lost sight of him.

You say that claims of where Zimmerman was are "babble", which is why the map and route are very important, and it's why the location of Zimmerman's vehicle is very important.  

You said previously that Trayvon ran, and now you say he didn't. Which is it?

I have agreed that Trayvon knew Zimmermam was watching him from his car. That is not in dispute.

Re the map you have posted, do you agree that that is where Zimmerman parked his vehicle? Would you also agree that he got out of that truck to follow Trayvon, and spoke for a further one minute and 54 seconds to the dispatcher? Where do you think Zimmerman was when he continued to talk to the dispatcher? Where do you think Trayvon was during that one minute and 54 seconds?

He certainly ran after him as this can be easily assertained from the phone call where he sounds breathless.
Why would he breathelss walking, that just does not make any sense.
I doubt TM ran but speeded up his walk.
Again you are not taking into account the distances here and at least now you are basiically admitted he was stalking him
TM was walking the whole time, which is backed up by the telephone call with his girlfriend who advised him to run.
Clearly at some point Zimmerman lost sight of TM which is also recorded on the calls. This in the area would happen, where he then comes upon TM a small time after this. So again there is clear intent there that Zimmerman went after TM, and that he was running as it is recorded with him sounding breathless.

Let's just say that George ran after he got out of vehicle, even though he was talking on the phone at the same time - quite difficult to do really. You can hear that Zimmerman was indeed moving - walking or possibly running for 26 seconds after he shut the door of his vehicle. Where do you think that he ran to? Where do you think that Trayvon was whilst Zimmerman continued to talk to the dispatcher for another one minute 54 seconds after he got out of his vehicle? Remember that Trayvon had a head start on Zimmerman.

You concede that Zimmerman lost sight of Trayvon at some point. Where do you think that happened? If Zimmerman ran or walked to the T-junction, why could he not see Trayvon making his way down the path to his father's house?

Cuchulain wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:Here is a recording of the 911 call.

Already have that thank you which backs my point on him being breathless or are you denying that now?

What I'd like you to concentrate on is the time difference between when Zimmerman got out of his car and the time when the call ended. Do you agree that it's one minute 54 seconds? If you like, we can say that it's one minute 50 seconds between him shutting his vehicle door and ending the call.

Raggamuffin wrote:

Cuchulain wrote:

He certainly ran after him as this can be easily assertained from the phone call where he sounds breathless.
Why would he breathelss walking, that just does not make any sense.
I doubt TM ran but speeded up his walk.
Again you are not taking into account the distances here and at least now you are basiically admitted he was stalking him
TM was walking the whole time, which is backed up by the telephone call with his girlfriend who advised him to run.
Clearly at some point Zimmerman lost sight of TM which is also recorded on the calls. This in the area would happen, where he then comes upon TM a small time after this. So again there is clear intent there that Zimmerman went after TM, and that he was running as it is recorded with him sounding breathless.

Let's just say that George ran after he got out of vehicle, even though he was talking on the phone at the same time - quite difficult to do really. You can hear that Zimmerman was indeed moving - walking or possibly running for 26 seconds after he shut the door of his vehicle. Where do you think that he ran to? Where do you think that Trayvon was whilst Zimmerman continued to talk to the dispatcher for another one minute 54 seconds after he got out of his vehicle? Remember that Trayvon had a head start on Zimmerman.

You concede that Zimmerman lost sight of Trayvon at some point. Where do you think that happened? If Zimmerman ran or walked to the T-junction, why could he not see Trayvon making his way down the path to his father's house?

Its not difficult at all
As to locations is all speculation and has utterly no relevance here to the points being raised to you.
You admit Zimmerman runs after him, loses him and then finds him thus clearly to confront him of which he does later which leads to the boys death. You are ignoring why he has followed him. Why has he not rang the Police again on spotting the boy? Clearly in Zimmerman's anger has got the better of him.

You seem fixated on the positions which have little bearing here to the known facts.

We know for a fact he had anger issues which at every turn you have avoided.

He has even as part of a plea bargain before had anger management course

Cuchulain wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:I agree that it's important to consider the personality of George Zimmerman, and that is up for discussion.

I see and hear a man who is a bit of a curtain twitcher. Perhaps he's a wannabe cop and would like to think that he helped his neighbourhood by preventing these break ins. He would like the people in that neighbourhood to see him as that person. None of that indicates that he is a man who deliberately wants to shoot a person just because they're black.

That is ignoring many factors like his knon violent recorded acts.
He may well want to be seen as a criminal catcher but as seen he clearly profiled young blacks as criminals based on the evidence.
Clearly a man with anger issues and who as seen cannot control his anger is a loose cannon.
If as seen he followed TM which he did, and ignored the Police, plus his views made of them being arseholes, then clearly his anger has control of him. This greatly increases the chances of Zimmerman making a further irrational act.

You have not proved that he continued to follow Trayvon after he was advised not to. He carried on walking for a few seconds, but you conceded that he lost sight of Trayvon, so how could have been following him if he lost sight of him?

Cuchulain wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:

Let's just say that George ran after he got out of vehicle, even though he was talking on the phone at the same time - quite difficult to do really. You can hear that Zimmerman was indeed moving - walking or possibly running for 26 seconds after he shut the door of his vehicle. Where do you think that he ran to? Where do you think that Trayvon was whilst Zimmerman continued to talk to the dispatcher for another one minute 54 seconds after he got out of his vehicle? Remember that Trayvon had a head start on Zimmerman.

You concede that Zimmerman lost sight of Trayvon at some point. Where do you think that happened? If Zimmerman ran or walked to the T-junction, why could he not see Trayvon making his way down the path to his father's house?

Its not difficult at all
As to locations is all speculation and has utterly no relevance here to the points being raised to you.
You admit Zimmerman runs after him, loses him and then finds him thus clearly to confront him of which he does later which leads to the boys death. You are ignoring why he has followed him. Why has he not rang the Police again on spotting the boy? Clearly in Zimmerman's anger has got the better of him.

You seem fixated on the positions which have little bearing here to the known facts.

We know for a fact he had anger issues which at every turn you have avoided.

He has even as part of a plea bargain before had anger management course

The location is absolutely essential to this - it's vital. You have posted a map, which is good. Here it is again. Do you agree that's where Zimmerman was parked?

Raggamuffin wrote:

Cuchulain wrote:


Already have that thank you which backs my point on him being breathless or are you denying that now?

What I'd like you to concentrate on is the time difference between when Zimmerman got out of his car and the time when the call ended. Do you agree that it's one minute 54 seconds? If you like, we can say that it's one minute 50 seconds between him shutting his vehicle door and ending the call.

Why do you want to concentrate on this, when we know that Zimmerman did run after him, was stalking him and confronted TM.
That is all that is important here and taking into account his sterotyping of young blacks criminals, his anger contolling him, ignoring the Police.
This is what you need to counter back against

Raggamuffin wrote:

Cuchulain wrote:

Its not difficult at all
As to locations is all speculation and has utterly no relevance here to the points being raised to you.
You admit Zimmerman runs after him, loses him and then finds him thus clearly to confront him of which he does later which leads to the boys death. You are ignoring why he has followed him. Why has he not rang the Police again on spotting the boy? Clearly in Zimmerman's anger has got the better of him.

You seem fixated on the positions which have little bearing here to the known facts.

We know for a fact he had anger issues which at every turn you have avoided.

He has even as part of a plea bargain before had anger management course

The location is absolutely essential to this - it's vital. You have posted a map, which is good. Here it is again. Do you agree that's where Zimmerman was parked?

Its not essential to assertaining the Charcater of Zimmerman and the reasons this incident happened.
Hence why you are not following this at all.

Cuchulain wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:

What I'd like you to concentrate on is the time difference between when Zimmerman got out of his car and the time when the call ended. Do you agree that it's one minute 54 seconds? If you like, we can say that it's one minute 50 seconds between him shutting his vehicle door and ending the call.

Why do you want to concentrate on this, when we know that Zimmerman did run after him, was stalking him and confronted TM.
That is all that is important here and taking into account his sterotyping of young blacks criminals, his anger contolling him, ignoring the Police.
This is what you need to counter back against

I concentrate on this because it's absolutely pivotal to the case. Where do you think Trayvon was when he started running?

You are generalising a lot, but the detail is essential. It's so easy for people to say - oh, he shot Trayvon because he was black, but that would be speculation and it would be completely ignoring the facts and the evidence.

Raggamuffin wrote:

Cuchulain wrote:

That is ignoring many factors like his knon violent recorded acts.
He may well want to be seen as a criminal catcher but as seen he clearly profiled young blacks as criminals based on the evidence.
Clearly a man with anger issues and who as seen cannot control his anger is a loose cannon.
If as seen he followed TM which he did, and ignored the Police, plus his views made of them being arseholes, then clearly his anger has control of him. This greatly increases the chances of Zimmerman making a further irrational act.

You have not proved that he continued to follow Trayvon after he was advised not to. He carried on walking for a few seconds, but you conceded that he lost sight of Trayvon, so how could have been following him if he lost sight of him?

Sorry if someone turns a courner then you will lose sight of them, that is obvious.
It still means he is following him, to claim otherwise is abusrd and illogical.
You have no defense for Zimmerman not following him.

Cuchulain wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:

The location is absolutely essential to this - it's vital. You have posted a map, which is good. Here it is again. Do you agree that's where Zimmerman was parked?

Its not essential to assertaining the Charcater of Zimmerman and the reasons this incident happened.
Hence why you are not following this at all.

Forget his character and concentrate on the map and the route. if you ignore that, then you are merely going on what you perceive to be the character of Zimmerman, and you are ignoring the logistics of how Zimmerman managed to catch up with a teenager who was close to his father's house, who had a head start, and should have been home long before they "met" in the area where the shooting happened.

Raggamuffin wrote:

Cuchulain wrote:

Why do you want to concentrate on this, when we know that Zimmerman did run after him, was stalking him and confronted TM.
That is all that is important here and taking into account his sterotyping of young blacks criminals, his anger contolling him, ignoring the Police.
This is what you need to counter back against

I concentrate on this because it's absolutely pivotal to the case. Where do you think Trayvon was when he started running?

You are generalising a lot, but the detail is essential. It's so easy for people to say - oh, he shot Trayvon because he was black, but that would be speculation and it would be completely ignoring the facts and the evidence.

You are ignoring the points I am making to you that created the wholoe situation based on the Character of Zimmerman.
Not concerned at locations, they are irrelevant to the points being made to you.
All that is important is how Zimmerman reacts.
He clearly lost control.
Ignored the officers.
Stalked and chased after TM
This all led to a confrontation and to the boy's death
These are the important parts here and most of all the fact Zimmerman has a history of anger issues and using violence.

Cuchulain wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:

You have not proved that he continued to follow Trayvon after he was advised not to. He carried on walking for a few seconds, but you conceded that he lost sight of Trayvon, so how could have been following him if he lost sight of him?

Sorry if someone turns a courner then you will lose sight of them, that is obvious.
It still means he is following him, to claim otherwise is abusrd and illogical.
You have no defense for Zimmerman not following him.

So you think that Trayvon started running when he was on the cut-through path? You think that Zimmerman then ran up that cut-through path and lost sight of him? You don't think that Zimmerman saw Trayvon turn right at the T-junction?

Just answer the questions Didge.

Raggamuffin wrote:

Cuchulain wrote:

Its not essential to assertaining the Charcater of Zimmerman and the reasons this incident happened.
Hence why you are not following this at all.

Forget his character and concentrate on the map and the route. if you ignore that, then you are merely going on what you perceive to be the character of Zimmerman, and you are ignoring the logistics of how Zimmerman managed to catch up with a teenager who was close to his father's house, who had a head start, and should have been home long before they "met" in the area where the shooting happened.

The whole point is on Zimmerman and how he lost control and was a loose cannon.

Again your defense is going off details that are not needed for my assessment of Zimmerman.

All that is important is how Zimmerman reacts.
He clearly lost control.
Ignored the officers.
Stalked and chased after TM
This all led to a confrontation and to the boy's death
These are the important parts here and most of all the fact Zimmerman has a history of anger issues and using violence.

Raggamuffin wrote:Just answer the questions Didge.

It has no relevance to my points.

If you are going to talk about the character of George Zimmerman, you should also talk about the character of Trayvon Martin. If you think it's likely that Zimmerman would attack Trayvon, you should also consider the possibility that Trayvon would wait for Zimmerman and confront him.

Raggamuffin wrote:

Cuchulain wrote:

Sorry if someone turns a courner then you will lose sight of them, that is obvious.
It still means he is following him, to claim otherwise is abusrd and illogical.
You have no defense for Zimmerman not following him.

So you think that Trayvon started running when he was on the cut-through path? You think that Zimmerman then ran up that cut-through path and lost sight of him? You don't think that Zimmerman saw Trayvon turn right at the T-junction?

I do not think anything on where, because nobody was there.
What we know is that Zimnmerman was chasing him, lost sight and then found him again, which is clearly the actions of someone following someone.

Cuchulain wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:Just answer the questions Didge.

It has no relevance to my points.

So you're not actually interested in my points at all then, all you're interested in is your preconceived ideas about Zimmerman, and drawing a conclusion based on those, without actually looking at the facts.

Cuchulain wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:

So you think that Trayvon started running when he was on the cut-through path? You think that Zimmerman then ran up that cut-through path and lost sight of him? You don't think that Zimmerman saw Trayvon turn right at the T-junction?

I do not think anything on where, because nobody was there.
What we know is that Zimnmerman was chasing him, lost sight and then found him again, which is clearly the actions of someone following someone.

No, that is what we do not know. How could Zimmerman have "found" Trayvon when Trayvon had clearly turned right at the T-junction and should have been home before Zimmerman got off the phone with the dispatcher?

Raggamuffin wrote:If you are going to talk about the character of George Zimmerman, you should also talk about the character of Trayvon Martin. If you think it's likely that Zimmerman would attack Trayvon, you should also consider the possibility that Trayvon would wait for Zimmerman and confront him.

All my points to you have bveen on the Character of Zimmerman.
I have considered TM waiting for him, but that does not fit in with any of the phone calls made with his girlfriend or does not have a history like Zimmerman of anger issues. The main point here is how Zimmerman losses control of the situation because of his nager which leads to the boy's death.,

Raggamuffin wrote:

Cuchulain wrote:

I do not think anything on where, because nobody was there.
What we know is that Zimnmerman was chasing him, lost sight and then found him again, which is clearly the actions of someone following someone.

No, that is what we do not know. How could Zimmerman have "found" Trayvon when Trayvon had clearly turned right at the T-junction and should have been home before Zimmerman got off the phone with the dispatcher?

Easy to explain as it is claimed here:

an unidentified individual with the Sanford Police Department who is not involved in the case but apparently had some exposure to the investigation. According to him, Zimmerman’s statement to police was that after losing track of Trayvon, Zimmerman “went around a townhouse to see where he was.” This supports two things: first, that Zimmerman was actively hunting for Trayvon at the time of the altercation, and second, that Zimmerman was not following the sidewalk routes, but ducking through gaps in houses. This is possible support for the theory that Zimmerman unexpectedly cut off Trayvon, who was on the sidewalk routes. It also puts the “Trayvon was in hiding waiting to attack Zimmerman” theory in doubt, because it’s not clear how Trayvon’s could have anticipated Zimmerman’s unusual path.

So Zimmerman is at the T-junction talking the police, and saying that he doesn't know where Trayvon is, right? Meanwhile, Trayvon is allegedly going down the path to his father's house. Why then can Zimmerman not see him? Let's say that Zimmerman didn't see Trayvon turn right at the T-junction at all, so he carried on walking along the cut-through towards Retreat View Circle. How then could he possibly have come across Trayvon who was going down the path to his father's house?

Let's not forget that Zimmerman said he saw Trayvon running towards the back entrance - ie, in the direction of his father's house.

Raggamuffin wrote:

So Zimmerman is at the T-junction talking the police, and saying that he doesn't know where Trayvon is, right? Meanwhile, Trayvon is allegedly going down the path to his father's house. Why then can Zimmerman not see him? Let's say that Zimmerman didn't see Trayvon turn right at the T-junction at all, so he carried on walking along the cut-through towards Retreat View Circle. How then could he possibly have come across Trayvon who was going down the path to his father's house?

Let's not forget that Zimmerman said he saw Trayvon running towards the back entrance - ie, in the direction of his father's house.

All irrelevant.
The only thing here that is important and clear, that Zimmerman went after TM

Again:

an unidentified individual with the Sanford Police Department who is not involved in the case but apparently had some exposure to the investigation. According to him, Zimmerman’s statement to police was that after losing track of Trayvon, Zimmerman “went around a townhouse to see where he was.” This supports two things: first, that Zimmerman was actively hunting for Trayvon at the time of the altercation, and second, that Zimmerman was not following the sidewalk routes, but ducking through gaps in houses. This is possible support for the theory that Zimmerman unexpectedly cut off Trayvon, who was on the sidewalk routes. It also puts the “Trayvon was in hiding waiting to attack Zimmerman” theory in doubt, because it’s not clear how Trayvon’s could have anticipated Zimmerman’s unusual path.

Cuchulain wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:

No, that is what we do not know. How could Zimmerman have "found" Trayvon when Trayvon had clearly turned right at the T-junction and should have been home before Zimmerman got off the phone with the dispatcher?

Easy to explain as it is claimed here:

an unidentified individual with the Sanford Police Department who is not involved in the case but apparently had some exposure to the investigation. According to him, Zimmerman’s statement to police was that after losing track of Trayvon, Zimmerman “went around a townhouse to see where he was.” This supports two things: first, that Zimmerman was actively hunting for Trayvon at the time of the altercation, and second, that Zimmerman was not following the sidewalk routes, but ducking through gaps in houses. This is possible support for the theory that Zimmerman unexpectedly cut off Trayvon, who was on the sidewalk routes. It also puts the “Trayvon was in hiding waiting to attack Zimmerman” theory in doubt, because it’s not clear how Trayvon’s could have anticipated Zimmerman’s unusual path.

Zimmerman went around which townhouse? Which gaps was he ducking through? Here's the map again.



Could you link to this statement where Zimmerman said that, or link to the article where the "witness" claimed that Zimmerman said that?

Cuchulain wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:

So Zimmerman is at the T-junction talking the police, and saying that he doesn't know where Trayvon is, right? Meanwhile, Trayvon is allegedly going down the path to his father's house. Why then can Zimmerman not see him? Let's say that Zimmerman didn't see Trayvon turn right at the T-junction at all, so he carried on walking along the cut-through towards Retreat View Circle. How then could he possibly have come across Trayvon who was going down the path to his father's house?

Let's not forget that Zimmerman said he saw Trayvon running towards the back entrance - ie, in the direction of his father's house.

All irrelevant.
The only thing here that is important and clear, that Zimmerman went after TM

Again:

an unidentified individual with the Sanford Police Department who is not involved in the case but apparently had some exposure to the investigation. According to him, Zimmerman’s statement to police was that after losing track of Trayvon, Zimmerman “went around a townhouse to see where he was.” This supports two things: first, that Zimmerman was actively hunting for Trayvon at the time of the altercation, and second, that Zimmerman was not following the sidewalk routes, but ducking through gaps in houses. This is possible support for the theory that Zimmerman unexpectedly cut off Trayvon, who was on the sidewalk routes. It also puts the “Trayvon was in hiding waiting to attack Zimmerman” theory in doubt, because it’s not clear how Trayvon’s could have anticipated Zimmerman’s unusual path.

Please link to the article you got that from.

Raggamuffin wrote:

Cuchulain wrote:

Easy to explain as it is claimed here:

an unidentified individual with the Sanford Police Department who is not involved in the case but apparently had some exposure to the investigation. According to him, Zimmerman’s statement to police was that after losing track of Trayvon, Zimmerman “went around a townhouse to see where he was.” This supports two things: first, that Zimmerman was actively hunting for Trayvon at the time of the altercation, and second, that Zimmerman was not following the sidewalk routes, but ducking through gaps in houses. This is possible support for the theory that Zimmerman unexpectedly cut off Trayvon, who was on the sidewalk routes. It also puts the “Trayvon was in hiding waiting to attack Zimmerman” theory in doubt, because it’s not clear how Trayvon’s could have anticipated Zimmerman’s unusual path.

Zimmerman went around which townhouse? Which gaps was he ducking through? Here's the map again.



Could you link to this statement where Zimmerman said that, or link to the article where the "witness" claimed that Zimmerman said that?

The gaps between the houses. Which is claimed from Zimmerman himself. Are you thinking the above map means there is no gaps between houses?? Do not let that mislead you

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/04/19/new-account-zimmerman-told-cops-trayvon-s-last-words-were-okay-you-got-it.html

So then, this statement from the 911 call where Zimmerman told the dispatcher that Trayvon ran towards the back entrance. The back entrance is on the bottom right of the map, so clearly Zimmerman saw Trayvon either run down the path from the T-junction, or he saw Trayvon run down Twin Trees toward the back entrance, yes?

He could possibly have seen him run straight across the cut-through, but one could turn left at the end of that, which wouldn't be towards the back entrance.

Dispatcher: He's running? Which way is he running?

Zimmerman: Down towards the other entrance to the neighborhood.

Dispatcher: OK. Which entrance is that that he's heading towards?

Zimmerman: The back entrance...

Raggamuffin wrote:So then, this statement from the 911 call where Zimmerman told the dispatcher that Trayvon ran towards the back entrance. The back entrance is on the bottom right of the map, so clearly Zimmerman saw Trayvon either run down the path from the T-junction, or he saw Trayvon run down Twin Trees toward the back entrance, yes?

He could possibly have seen him run straight across the cut-through, but one could turn left at the end of that, which wouldn't be towards the back entrance.

Dispatcher: He's running? Which way is he running?

Zimmerman: Down towards the other entrance to the neighborhood.

Dispatcher: OK. Which entrance is that that he's heading towards?

Zimmerman: The back entrance...

Again all the above is irrelevant to my points.
Its clear Zimmerman based on his own testimony was actively going after TM.
He lost sight of him and if he is going around houses to find TM he clearly confronted TM
This led to the confrontation and to the boys death.
Meaning Zimmerman was the cause of the boys death.
Again everything fits in with my Character view of Zimmerman and his anger issues.

Cuchulain wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:

Zimmerman went around which townhouse? Which gaps was he ducking through? Here's the map again.



Could you link to this statement where Zimmerman said that, or link to the article where the "witness" claimed that Zimmerman said that?

The gaps between the houses. Which is claimed from Zimmerman himself. Are you thinking the above map means there is no gaps between houses?? Do not let that mislead you

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/04/19/new-account-zimmerman-told-cops-trayvon-s-last-words-were-okay-you-got-it.html

Which gaps? If Zimmerman went along the cut-through, there are only a few gaps he could have gone through. There are two gaps down the path leading from the T-junction, but they're further down from where the shooting took place. There's a gap on the left of the cut-through, which would take Zimmerman out onto the north side of Retreat View Circle - in the opposite direction of the path which led to Trayvon's father's house.

Here's the map again.

Cuchulain wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:So then, this statement from the 911 call where Zimmerman told the dispatcher that Trayvon ran towards the back entrance. The back entrance is on the bottom right of the map, so clearly Zimmerman saw Trayvon either run down the path from the T-junction, or he saw Trayvon run down Twin Trees toward the back entrance, yes?

He could possibly have seen him run straight across the cut-through, but one could turn left at the end of that, which wouldn't be towards the back entrance.

Again all the above is irrelevant to my points.
Its clear Zimmerman based on his own testimony was actively going after TM.
He lost sight of him and if he is going around houses to find TM he clearly confronted TM
This led to the confrontation and to the boys death.
Meaning Zimmerman was the cause of the boys death.
Again everything fits in with my Character view of Zimmerman and his anger issues.

It's very relevant to my points. Zimmerman saw Trayvon run south - towards the back entrance, so he either saw him turn right at the T-junction, or he saw Trayvon run down Twin Trees, yes?

Which houses was he going around? I've posted the map again so you can tell me where he went.

Raggamuffin wrote:

Cuchulain wrote:

The gaps between the houses. Which is claimed from Zimmerman himself. Are you thinking the above map means there is no gaps between houses?? Do not let that mislead you

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/04/19/new-account-zimmerman-told-cops-trayvon-s-last-words-were-okay-you-got-it.html

Which gaps? If Zimmerman went along the cut-through, there are only a few gaps he could have gone through. There are two gaps down the path leading from the T-junction, but they're further down from where the shooting took place. There's a gap on the left of the cut-through, which would take Zimmerman out onto the north side of Retreat View Circle - in the opposite direction of the path which led to Trayvon's father's house.

Here's the map again.

Now you are going against the evidence of Zimmermasn himself
Again what is vital here is to show Zimmerman was actively going after TM
I have now easily proved that, which points to my view of him not being in control as well as his views of TM on the call to the Police and his previous anger issues.
You are making moot points.

Raggamuffin wrote:

Cuchulain wrote:

Again all the above is irrelevant to my points.
Its clear Zimmerman based on his own testimony was actively going after TM.
He lost sight of him and if he is going around houses to find TM he clearly confronted TM
This led to the confrontation and to the boys death.
Meaning Zimmerman was the cause of the boys death.
Again everything fits in with my Character view of Zimmerman and his anger issues.

It's very relevant to my points. Zimmerman saw Trayvon run south - towards the back entrance, so he either saw him turn right at the T-junction, or he saw Trayvon run down Twin Trees, yes?

Which houses was he going around? I've posted the map again so you can tell me where he went.

Your points are based on hearsay by Zimmerman all of which is irrelevant to my points on what caused the situation here which was clearly Zimmerman.
There is no denying he was activelly seeking to confront TM
What house does it matter where he went around, all that matters is that he did go around one to find TM.

Cuchulain wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:

Which gaps? If Zimmerman went along the cut-through, there are only a few gaps he could have gone through. There are two gaps down the path leading from the T-junction, but they're further down from where the shooting took place. There's a gap on the left of the cut-through, which would take Zimmerman out onto the north side of Retreat View Circle - in the opposite direction of the path which led to Trayvon's father's house.

Here's the map again.

Now you are going against the evidence of Zimmermasn himself
Again what is vital here is to show Zimmerman was actively going after TM
I have now easily proved that, which points to my view of him not being in control as well as his views of TM on the call to the Police and his previous anger issues.
You are making moot points.

How have I gone against the evidence of Zimmerman? Which gaps did he go through? It's not a hard question is it? There are only a few gaps between the house in that area.

What is vital is to understand the area and understand who went where and when.

Cuchulain wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:

It's very relevant to my points. Zimmerman saw Trayvon run south - towards the back entrance, so he either saw him turn right at the T-junction, or he saw Trayvon run down Twin Trees, yes?

Which houses was he going around? I've posted the map again so you can tell me where he went.

Your points are based on hearsay by Zimmerman all of which is irrelevant to my points on what caused the situation here which was clearly Zimmerman.
There is no denying he was activelly seeking to confront TM
What house does it matter where he went around, all that matters is that he did go around one to find TM.

My points are based on the phone call, which I have posted. They are not based on hearsay. You have based your theory that he went around townhouses on hearsay.

Are you suggesting that Zimmerman did not see Trayvon run in the direction of the back entrance? If so, where do you think that he saw Trayvon go?

Of course it matters which gap he allegedly went through - look at the map again.

Raggamuffin wrote:

Cuchulain wrote:


Now you are going against the evidence of Zimmermasn himself
Again what is vital here is to show Zimmerman was actively going after TM
I have now easily proved that, which points to my view of him not being in control as well as his views of TM on the call to the Police and his previous anger issues.
You are making moot points.

How have I gone against the evidence of Zimmerman? Which gaps did he go through? It's not a hard question is it? There are only a few gaps between the house in that area.

What is vital is to understand the area and understand who went where and when.

He states he went around a house himself to the Police as I posted this evidence for you, which you certainly were not aware of.
Its not vital to understand the area, what is vital is to understand the intent of Zimmerman, which is why your argument is flagging badly.

I can't find anything about Zimmerman going around townhouses or going through gaps in the article you linked to.

Can you post it again?

Raggamuffin wrote:

Cuchulain wrote:

Your points are based on hearsay by Zimmerman all of which is irrelevant to my points on what caused the situation here which was clearly Zimmerman.
There is no denying he was activelly seeking to confront TM
What house does it matter where he went around, all that matters is that he did go around one to find TM.

My points are based on the phone call, which I have posted. They are not based on hearsay. You have based your theory that he went around townhouses on hearsay.

Are you suggesting that Zimmerman did not see Trayvon run in the direction of the back entrance? If so, where do you think that he saw Trayvon go?

Of course it matters which gap he allegedly went through - look at the map again.

Again you are ignoring the fact Zimmerman had intent.
So your points have utterly no relevance
He went after TM, this has been easily assertained.
He has anger issues.
Sterotypes blacks as criminals.
Add this altogether and you have the wrong type of person with a gun going to confront a situation all of which Zimmerman created himself.

Raggamuffin wrote:I can't find anything about Zimmerman going around townhouses or going through gaps in the article you linked to.

Can you post it again?

No because you are just being lazy now.

Cuchulain wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:

How have I gone against the evidence of Zimmerman? Which gaps did he go through? It's not a hard question is it? There are only a few gaps between the house in that area.

What is vital is to understand the area and understand who went where and when.

He states he went around a house himself to the Police as I posted this evidence for you, which you certainly were not aware of.
Its not vital to understand the area, what is vital is to understand the intent of Zimmerman, which is why your argument is flagging badly.

I can't find Zimmerman's statement that he went around a house. Could you post it again?

Of course it's vital to understand the area. Without understanding the area, you can't understand what happened and how.

Cuchulain wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:

My points are based on the phone call, which I have posted. They are not based on hearsay. You have based your theory that he went around townhouses on hearsay.

Are you suggesting that Zimmerman did not see Trayvon run in the direction of the back entrance? If so, where do you think that he saw Trayvon go?

Of course it matters which gap he allegedly went through - look at the map again.

Again you are ignoring the fact Zimmerman had intent.
So your points have utterly no relevance
He went after TM, this has been easily assertained.
He has anger issues.
Sterotypes blacks as criminals.
Add this altogether and you have the wrong type of person with a gun going to confront a situation all of which Zimmerman created himself.

I have ignored nothing, I have addressed your points several times.

Now concentrate on what actually happened rather than your theory of Zimmerman's motive.