South Carolina church shooting: Nine killed in Charleston

by Guest Thu Jun 18, 2015 6:32 am

First topic message reminder :

Nine people have died in a shooting at a historic African-American church in Charleston in the US state of South Carolina, officials say.
City police chief Gregory Mullen said eight of the victims were killed inside the Emanuel African Methodist Episcopal Church on Thursday evening, while another person died shortly afterwards.
Police are now searching for a white male suspect in his 20s.
"I do believe it was a hate crime," Mr Mullen said.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-33179019

by Guest Thu Jun 25, 2015 6:37 am

Raggamuffin wrote:
Original Quill wrote:I think that didge is one of the best posters on here. Look at yourself Raggs...you and eds have spent the last half-page of this thread railing on didge, and not discussing the topic.

We all have rough edges at times, but what I like about didge is that he sticks to the point. He rarely goes off arguing examples and/or analogies.

Raggs, you must admit that you care about winning more than truth. You cherry-pick subjects and arguments. Like a lot of lawyers I know, you use easy language rather than getting to ideas. If you find yourself in an inconvenient position, you change the subject. And no matter how many times you are proven wrong, five posts later you return and make the same point over again.

Nuff said. This thread is not about any one of you. Let's get back to the subject matter: the Charleston massacre.

I think it's you who cares about winning more than truth. You read some stuff on the internet and take the path of least resistance - you go with the flow and just agree with whatever fits your own prejudices and bias. You also make a lot of assumptions based on your own prejudices, and at times you actually invent things to fit your agenda.

I look at things properly, I don't just accept what someone says, I look at the evidence and see if it's logical. You go more on knee-jerk reactions and hysteria. You can never prove me wrong - you're a bit like Didge in that you think that only your opinion is valid. You and Didge make the same points over and over again in the hope of bludgeoning someone into agreeing with you.

No wonder you admire him so much - birds of a feather and all that.

We certainly drum home points because at many points people fail to grasp them.
This is a good teaching method normally to help people understand something they are failing to understand.
You go over the points again until that student understands. Sadly that student will stubbornly stick in their heels and is unwilling to learn. Nobody is saying you have to accept what someone says, that is your choice but you seem to take great issue for someone saying you are wrong.
Its not rude or aggressive and to me the problem stems with yourself not like being told you are wrong.
Everyday for example I have Tommy say to my posts:
"Wrong"
"Bullshit"
"Waffle"
"Fuck off Dodge"
I then continue to counter his points and do not make a song and dance about it as you have been doing, because again it does not bother me he does this. So again the issue stems from the person taking issue, and they would only take issue in the fear that they might be wrong. As if you know full well you are not wrong, you would not take issue and debate your points. Hence if you take issue with someone telling you that you are wrong it is yourself that has the issue. Again I admit my faults and do not make excuse when I do wrong.

by Guest Thu Jun 25, 2015 6:39 am

Original Quill wrote:
Didge wrote:The more rigid your personality, the more difficulty you will have in being wrong.
On Sunday, May 27, Drew Gilpin Faust (link is external), President of Harvard was interviewed in the NY Times Sunday Book Review (link is external). What caught my attention was her answer to this question:
Is there any book you wish all incoming freshmen at Harvard would read?
Kathryn Schulz’s Being Wrong (link is external) advocates doubt as a skill and praises error as the foundation of wisdom. Her book would reinforce my encouragement of Harvard’s accomplished and successful freshmen to embrace risk and even failure.

My daughter is a graduate of Harvard University. She also has a Harvard MBA, and a Harvard law degree.

My father was a graduate of Harvard Medical School, and taught there for a number of years. His father was a graduate of Glasgow University, but his uncle attended Harvard as well.

Needless to say, I am fond of Harvard University.

You must be very proud Quill of all of them.
I certainly would be with such a prestigious Universities.

by Original Quill Thu Jun 25, 2015 6:44 am

Raggamuffin wrote:You can never prove me wrong -

That is the kind of statement that proves my point. You are not debating for truth, but to win.

And it shows. You sacrifice intellectual growth in order not to appear to lose. For example, you are intractable about the longitudinal history of racism in America, as if everything started just yesterday. No less of an authority than the United States Supreme Court has recognized the importance of looking to history:

US Sup. Ct. wrote:"There may be narrower scope for operation of the presumption of constitutionality when legislation appears on its face to be within a specific prohibition of the Constitution, such as those of the first ten amendments....It is unnecessary to consider now whether legislation which restricts those political processes which can ordinarily be expected to bring about repeal of undesirable legislation, is to be subjected to more exacting judicial scrutiny under the general prohibitions of the Fourteenth Amendment...Nor need we enquire ...whether prejudice against discrete and insular minorities may be a special condition, which tends seriously to curtail the operation of those political processes ordinarily to be relied upon to protect minorities, and which may call for a correspondingly more searching judicial inquiry." United States v. Carolene Products Co., 304 U.S. at 52-53 n.4.

The Court has even set up a separate category of suspect classifications based upon the history of blacks in America:

Cornell Univ. Law School wrote:A class of individuals that have been historically subject to discrimination. Any statute that makes a distinction between individuals based on any of the suspect classifications (ie. alienage, race) will be subject to a strict scrutiny standard of review before the Supreme Court. The court also uses the terms "discrete" or "insular" to describe minorities that are suspect classes. These terms are derived from the footnote in Carolene Products - the most famous footnote in Constitutional law.

There is too much to learn, and too little time in which to do it.

by Raggamuffin Thu Jun 25, 2015 6:50 am

Original Quill wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:You can never prove me wrong -

That is the kind of statement that proves my point. You are not debating for truth, but to win.

And it shows. You sacrifice intellectual growth in order not to appear to lose. For example, you are intractable about the longitudinal history of racism in America, as if everything started just yesterday. No less of an authority than the United States Supreme Court has recognized the importance of looking to history:

US Sup. Ct. wrote:"There may be narrower scope for operation of the presumption of constitutionality when legislation appears on its face to be within a specific prohibition of the Constitution, such as those of the first ten amendments....It is unnecessary to consider now whether legislation which restricts those political processes which can ordinarily be expected to bring about repeal of undesirable legislation, is to be subjected to more exacting judicial scrutiny under the general prohibitions of the Fourteenth Amendment...Nor need we enquire ...whether prejudice against discrete and insular minorities may be a special condition, which tends seriously to curtail the operation of those political processes ordinarily to be relied upon to protect minorities, and which may call for a correspondingly more searching judicial inquiry." United States v. Carolene Products Co., 304 U.S. at 52-53 n.4.

The Court has even set up a separate category of suspect classifications based upon the history of blacks in America:

Cornell Univ. Law School wrote:A class of individuals that have been historically subject to discrimination. Any statute that makes a distinction between individuals based on any of the suspect classifications (ie. alienage, race) will be subject to a strict scrutiny standard of review before the Supreme Court. The court also uses the terms "discrete" or "insular" to describe minorities that are suspect classes. These terms are derived from the footnote in Carolene Products - the most famous footnote in Constitutional law.

There is too much to learn, and too little time in which to do it.

You can never prove me wrong because your thinking is lazy. You see a story about a black person and a white person - or a non-black person. You automatically assume that the black person must be right - because they're black, and the white person must be wrong - because they're white. It's just lazy thinking. There's no attention to detail at all, just assumptions based on your prejudices. If the facts don't fit your theory, you just make some up.

You just can't live in the present - all your prejudice is based on history, and you simply can't move beyond that.

by Guest Thu Jun 25, 2015 6:57 am

Raggamuffin wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

That is the kind of statement that proves my point. You are not debating for truth, but to win.

And it shows. You sacrifice intellectual growth in order not to appear to lose. For example, you are intractable about the longitudinal history of racism in America, as if everything started just yesterday. No less of an authority than the United States Supreme Court has recognized the importance of looking to history:

The Court has even set up a separate category of suspect classifications based upon the history of blacks in America:

There is too much to learn, and too little time in which to do it.

You can never prove me wrong because your thinking is lazy. You see a story about a black person and a white person - or a non-black person. You automatically assume that the black person must be right - because they're black, and the white person must be wrong - because they're white. It's just lazy thinking. There's no attention to detail at all, just assumptions based on your prejudices. If the facts don't fit your theory, you just make some up.

You just can't live in the present - all your prejudice is based on history, and you simply can't move beyond that.

If you do not understand history then you certainly do not understand the present, as the present has been formed over countless years of history. His thinking is sound and to think you cannot be proved wrong where anyone can is a poor issue you have. You are even claiming superiority in regards to understanding a form a view that stems from within racism itself. It does not make you racist, but this is a good example of how through history such views creep into our thinking. Anyone can be proved wrong dependent on the subject and by the points posed. Again you have a poor understanding of social history and its effects on societies especially around years of discrimination towards blacks and you do so for two reasons.
One you fail to and are unable to place yourself in the shoes of someone black and two you have grown up from a privileged position in society being white who to this today are advantaged over other ethnic groups

Laters

by Raggamuffin Thu Jun 25, 2015 7:01 am

Didge, I see you replied, but I haven't read it. Sorry, but I just don't want to read what I know will be arrogant waffle.

by Guest Thu Jun 25, 2015 7:51 am

Raggamuffin wrote:Didge, I see you replied, but I haven't read it. Sorry, but I just don't want to read what I know will be arrogant waffle.

You do not want to read but want to reply lol

by eddie Thu Jun 25, 2015 12:11 pm

Erm for the record I'm not normally rude and I will quite often take stick without biting, but every now and then I will bite.
I am only human!

by Original Quill Thu Jun 25, 2015 5:04 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:You can never prove me wrong because your thinking is lazy. You see a story about a black person and a white person - or a non-black person. You automatically assume that the black person must be right - because they're black, and the white person must be wrong - because they're white. It's just lazy thinking. There's no attention to detail at all, just assumptions based on your prejudices. If the facts don't fit your theory, you just make some up.

You just can't live in the present - all your prejudice is based on history, and you simply can't move beyond that.

My assumptions come with the force of history, but the dead black men, whose murders have taken place since Zimmerman shot Trayvon Martin, are very much in your face also. It is real and you can’t deal with it.

We know that racism began with some 500-years of obvious slavery. We know that slavery divided the US legally up until the Civil War. We know that following the emancipation proclamation the South followed up with a series of Jim Crow laws during the Reconstruction era. We know that Plessy v. Ferguson gave us separate but equal in 1896. We know that there then followed some 70-years of segregation, followed by the Republican southern strategy. Now we have an era of white supremacy and endless murders of black people throughout the south…not just by freaks, but by police officers as well as Pepsi-Cola cops like Zimmerman.

And you worry about my laziness?? Frankly, I don’t have to be very energetic…the facts scream out for themselves.

It is more than curious that you want so much to discount history. That is because it permits your kind of racism to prevail. The concept of proportional equality demands that we account for and compensate for the centuries of wrongs. At the very least, remedial measures must take place in order to bring equality to the starting gate. But, you oppose that. The incessant display of white violence—some of it by police—that is taking place today demands a new course of action; you cherry-pick details in a futile effort to deny that these murders are upon us. And when all else fails, you change the subject and dither on about vehicle damage in the Baltimore demonstrations…with neither care nor concern for the value of the black life taken.

In the face of all of that, you deliver a speech that your adversary is lazy? Do you see how ridiculous you sound amid voices much louder than mine? You are like a drowning swimmer, grasping at twigs for salvation. Certainly you can appeal to your base of cheerleaders; tommy and nicko are already willing to discount history, needing only you to justify it for them. But they are drowned out with you.

You think that by criticizing me, you sweep away centuries of racial hatred? It ain’t gonna happen. You think history is just another campaign tactic to sweep aside. Do you have a family?...that is history. Do you have a job?...that is history. Do you have a community?...that is history. Do you have a country?...that is history. Do you live in the world?...that is history. Racism is not about you and me…not even with your cheerleaders thrown in. It cannot be negated by calling a single person ‘lazy’. It will not go away, no matter what interpersonal attack you bring about today.

by Raggamuffin Thu Jun 25, 2015 5:28 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:You can never prove me wrong because your thinking is lazy. You see a story about a black person and a white person - or a non-black person. You automatically assume that the black person must be right - because they're black, and the white person must be wrong - because they're white. It's just lazy thinking. There's no attention to detail at all, just assumptions based on your prejudices. If the facts don't fit your theory, you just make some up.

You just can't live in the present - all your prejudice is based on history, and you simply can't move beyond that.

My assumptions come with the force of history, but the dead black men, whose murders have taken place since Zimmerman shot Trayvon Martin, are very much in your face also. It is real and you can’t deal with it.

We know that racism began with some 500-years of obvious slavery. We know that slavery divided the US legally up until the Civil War. We know that following the emancipation proclamation the South followed up with a series of Jim Crow laws during the Reconstruction era. We know that Plessy v. Ferguson gave us separate but equal in 1896. We know that there then followed some 70-years of segregation, followed by the Republican southern strategy. Now we have an era of white supremacy and endless murders of black people throughout the south…not just by freaks, but by police officers as well as Pepsi-Cola cops like Zimmerman.

And you worry about my laziness?? Frankly, I don’t have to be very energetic…the facts scream out for themselves.

It is more than curious that you want so much to discount history. That is because it permits your kind of racism to prevail. The concept of proportional equality demands that we account for and compensate for the centuries of wrongs. At the very least, remedial measures must take place in order to bring equality to the starting gate. But, you oppose that. The incessant display of white violence—some of it by police—that is taking place today demands a new course of action; you cherry-pick details in a futile effort to deny that these murders are upon us. And when all else fails, you change the subject and dither on about vehicle damage in the Baltimore demonstrations…with neither care nor concern for the value of the black life taken.

In the face of all of that, you deliver a speech that your adversary is lazy? Do you see how ridiculous you sound amid voices much louder than mine? You are like a drowning swimmer, grasping at twigs for salvation. Certainly you can appeal to your base of cheerleaders; tommy and nicko are already willing to discount history, needing only you to justify it for them. But they are drowned out with you.

You think that by criticizing me, you sweep away centuries of racial hatred? It ain’t gonna happen. You think history is just another campaign tactic to sweep aside. Do you have a family?...that is history. Do you have a job?...that is history. Do you have a community?...that is history. Do you have a country?...that is history. Do you live in the world?...that is history. Racism is not about you and me…not even with your cheerleaders thrown in. It cannot be negated by calling a single person ‘lazy’. It will not go away, no matter what interpersonal attack you bring about today.

And where does today fit into all this Quill? Do people in the US really spend every waking moment worrying about what colour they are, or what colour someone else is? What a ghastly way to live.

Why must you compensate people today for centuries of wrongs? The people here today didn't suffer those wrongs, so why do you need to compensate them for something that didn't happen to them? I think that's patronising - you're telling them that they can't make it on their own, that they're not good enough, so they need special favours.

My racism? What racism would that be Quill? The kind where I think that people shouldn't be judged or patronised because of the colour of their skin?

We had riots over here - after the death of a black man shot by police. Do you think that when the rioters came to court for arson, violence, theft, or whatever, the judge should have said - oh well, a man died, so nothing compares to that - well done, you are free to go? Do you think that everyone who breaks the law should be let off on the grounds that the crime they committed wasn't as bad as another crime committed by someone else?

I don't think I have any cheerleaders. I certainly haven't asked anyone else on here to support me. If Nicko and Tommy share my views, that's because they see things differently to you as well, and they don't need me to justify their own views.

Your way of thinking is lazy because you merely group people together - black, white, rich, poor - you don't think of people as individuals. If you met a black man who had everything he wanted, you would still call him a victim, whether he wanted you to or not. If you met a white person who had lost everything or never had much, you would still call them racist and privileged - wouldn't you?

by Original Quill Thu Jun 25, 2015 6:21 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:And where does today fit into all this Quill? Do people in the US really spend every waking moment worrying about what colour they are, or what colour someone else is? What a ghastly way to live.

“If you're black in America, race is a factor in your life. Start with that assumption.” –Henry Hampton

Raggamuffin wrote:Why must you compensate people today for centuries of wrongs?

Precisely because it continues. People today are the children of yesterday. There are present vestiges of past discrimination. Those vestiges are in the institutions we hand down to those children whose parents we discriminated against--and, frankly, still do. The US Supreme Court has held that that the adoption and implementation of race-neutral policies alone are not sufficient to remove the harm. United States v. Fordice, 505 U.S. 717 (1992). Remedial measures are necessary in order to equalize every person’s opportunity, regardless of race.

The king couldn’t stop the waves by ordering them to cease, and so you cannot stop centuries of wrongs from holding back blacks in life, education and economics. They are still getting the short end of the stick. Positive steps must be taken to even bring them to the same starting gate. Once that is done, then give them an equal chance.

Raggamuffin wrote:The people here today didn't suffer those wrongs, so why do you need to compensate them for something that didn't happen to them?

This is the heart of your error. People today were children of children who were deprived of education, economic opportunity, and even a decent meal. They still suffer those consequrences.

Raggamuffin wrote:I think that's patronising - you're telling them that they can't make it on their own, that they're not good enough, so they need special favours.

My racism? What racism would that be Quill? The kind where I think that people shouldn't be judged or patronised because of the colour of their skin?

Hospitals are patronizing. Education and teachers are patronizing. Employment is patronizing. Police and Fire departments are patronizing. Chrissake, the US military is patronizing when it protects us around the globe. We live in a society in which each person is interdependent upon the next. If you call that patronizing, it is nonetheless a fact.

Raggamuffin wrote:Your way of thinking is lazy because you merely group people together - black, white, rich, poor - you don't think of people as individuals.

Did slave holders think of slaves as individuals? Did segregationists think of blacks as individuals? Do racists think of people as individuals? Do white supremacists not categorize people as white, black, Jews and so forth? It’s the nature of the problem we—you included—are facing. You can't spend centuries collectivizing people for purposes of discriminating against them, and then say presto, you are now individuals, even though we left less change in your pockets and no future to look forward to.

Those abuses of society have their consequences…present vestiges of past discrimination. And those consequences must be countered with remedial action. To treat this problem by defining it as an individual issue is to stick your head in the sand…and do nothing: the conservative way.

by Raggamuffin Thu Jun 25, 2015 6:29 pm

So then Quill, do you think that the Baltimore rioters should be let off for looting, arson, and destruction of property?

by eddie Thu Jun 25, 2015 8:51 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:
Original Quill wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:You can never prove me wrong because your thinking is lazy. You see a story about a black person and a white person - or a non-black person. You automatically assume that the black person must be right - because they're black, and the white person must be wrong - because they're white. It's just lazy thinking. There's no attention to detail at all, just assumptions based on your prejudices. If the facts don't fit your theory, you just make some up.

You just can't live in the present - all your prejudice is based on history, and you simply can't move beyond that.

My assumptions come with the force of history, but the dead black men, whose murders have taken place since Zimmerman shot Trayvon Martin, are very much in your face also. It is real and you can’t deal with it.

We know that racism began with some 500-years of obvious slavery. We know that slavery divided the US legally up until the Civil War. We know that following the emancipation proclamation the South followed up with a series of Jim Crow laws during the Reconstruction era. We know that Plessy v. Ferguson gave us separate but equal in 1896. We know that there then followed some 70-years of segregation, followed by the Republican southern strategy. Now we have an era of white supremacy and endless murders of black people throughout the south…not just by freaks, but by police officers as well as Pepsi-Cola cops like Zimmerman.

And you worry about my laziness?? Frankly, I don’t have to be very energetic…the facts scream out for themselves.

It is more than curious that you want so much to discount history. That is because it permits your kind of racism to prevail. The concept of proportional equality demands that we account for and compensate for the centuries of wrongs. At the very least, remedial measures must take place in order to bring equality to the starting gate. But, you oppose that. The incessant display of white violence—some of it by police—that is taking place today demands a new course of action; you cherry-pick details in a futile effort to deny that these murders are upon us. And when all else fails, you change the subject and dither on about vehicle damage in the Baltimore demonstrations…with neither care nor concern for the value of the black life taken.

In the face of all of that, you deliver a speech that your adversary is lazy? Do you see how ridiculous you sound amid voices much louder than mine? You are like a drowning swimmer, grasping at twigs for salvation. Certainly you can appeal to your base of cheerleaders; tommy and nicko are already willing to discount history, needing only you to justify it for them. But they are drowned out with you.

You think that by criticizing me, you sweep away centuries of racial hatred? It ain’t gonna happen. You think history is just another campaign tactic to sweep aside. Do you have a family?...that is history. Do you have a job?...that is history. Do you have a community?...that is history. Do you have a country?...that is history. Do you live in the world?...that is history. Racism is not about you and me…not even with your cheerleaders thrown in. It cannot be negated by calling a single person ‘lazy’. It will not go away, no matter what interpersonal attack you bring about today.

And where does today fit into all this Quill? Do people in the US really spend every waking moment worrying about what colour they are, or what colour someone else is? What a ghastly way to live.

Why must you compensate people today for centuries of wrongs? The people here today didn't suffer those wrongs, so why do you need to compensate them for something that didn't happen to them? I think that's patronising - you're telling them that they can't make it on their own, that they're not good enough, so they need special favours.

My racism? What racism would that be Quill? The kind where I think that people shouldn't be judged or patronised because of the colour of their skin?

We had riots over here - after the death of a black man shot by police. Do you think that when the rioters came to court for arson, violence, theft, or whatever, the judge should have said - oh well, a man died, so nothing compares to that - well done, you are free to go? Do you think that everyone who breaks the law should be let off on the grounds that the crime they committed wasn't as bad as another crime committed by someone else?

I don't think I have any cheerleaders. I certainly haven't asked anyone else on here to support me. If Nicko and Tommy share my views, that's because they see things differently to you as well, and they don't need me to justify their own views.

Your way of thinking is lazy because you merely group people together - black, white, rich, poor - you don't think of people as individuals. If you met a black man who had everything he wanted, you would still call him a victim, whether he wanted you to or not. If you met a white person who had lost everything or never had much, you would still call them racist and privileged - wouldn't you?

I'm not a cheerleader of rags or anyone, but,this post is bang on the money actually.
You do come across that way Quill. Really, really, very much so.

by Guest Thu Jun 25, 2015 9:04 pm

eddie wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:

And where does today fit into all this Quill? Do people in the US really spend every waking moment worrying about what colour they are, or what colour someone else is? What a ghastly way to live.

Why must you compensate people today for centuries of wrongs? The people here today didn't suffer those wrongs, so why do you need to compensate them for something that didn't happen to them? I think that's patronising - you're telling them that they can't make it on their own, that they're not good enough, so they need special favours.

My racism? What racism would that be Quill? The kind where I think that people shouldn't be judged or patronised because of the colour of their skin?

We had riots over here - after the death of a black man shot by police. Do you think that when the rioters came to court for arson, violence, theft, or whatever, the judge should have said - oh well, a man died, so nothing compares to that - well done, you are free to go? Do you think that everyone who breaks the law should be let off on the grounds that the crime they committed wasn't as bad as another crime committed by someone else?

I don't think I have any cheerleaders. I certainly haven't asked anyone else on here to support me. If Nicko and Tommy share my views, that's because they see things differently to you as well, and they don't need me to justify their own views.

Your way of thinking is lazy because you merely group people together - black, white, rich, poor - you don't think of people as individuals. If you met a black man who had everything he wanted, you would still call him a victim, whether he wanted you to or not. If you met a white person who had lost everything or never had much, you would still call them racist and privileged - wouldn't you?

I'm not a cheerleader of rags or anyone, but,this post is bang on the money actually.
You do come across that way Quill. Really, really, very much so.

His views actually much better and as seen Rags does what she does best by deflection.
She can be convincing Eddie, but its reading between the lines.
Rags fails to look at racial issues from a point of view as the victim. She does and can perceive victim to be in the wrong and those that committed the wrong to be justified in their actions
To understand what a victim feels you have to attempt to understand that position.
Rags fails at that, hence why at least Quill tries to coach her in the right directions of understanding.
She fails to grasp Black people are still suffering the indignation of how they are still treated poorly all stemming from the time of slavery because they are still seen as inferior to groups of people from the South who lost a war fought over their freedom. This is seen by some daft refusal to remove a flag, a symbol of slavery. Rags lacks understanding how people suffer discrimination as a group.
Rags constantly deflects onto the poster when she is losing ground.
Its a poker tell.

by Raggamuffin Thu Jun 25, 2015 9:53 pm

Oh FFS. "Rags fails, Rags deflects, Rags lacks this, Rags lacks that".

Can you ever say anything nice about anyone Didge?

You might disagree but I failed at nothing. Those are my views, and they are perfectly valid. If you don't like that, then you are the failure.

by Raggamuffin Thu Jun 25, 2015 9:54 pm

Tell you what. Next time you see a black person, go up to them and say you feel sorry for them. See what happens.

by Raggamuffin Thu Jun 25, 2015 9:55 pm

eddie wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:

And where does today fit into all this Quill? Do people in the US really spend every waking moment worrying about what colour they are, or what colour someone else is? What a ghastly way to live.

Why must you compensate people today for centuries of wrongs? The people here today didn't suffer those wrongs, so why do you need to compensate them for something that didn't happen to them? I think that's patronising - you're telling them that they can't make it on their own, that they're not good enough, so they need special favours.

My racism? What racism would that be Quill? The kind where I think that people shouldn't be judged or patronised because of the colour of their skin?

We had riots over here - after the death of a black man shot by police. Do you think that when the rioters came to court for arson, violence, theft, or whatever, the judge should have said - oh well, a man died, so nothing compares to that - well done, you are free to go? Do you think that everyone who breaks the law should be let off on the grounds that the crime they committed wasn't as bad as another crime committed by someone else?

I don't think I have any cheerleaders. I certainly haven't asked anyone else on here to support me. If Nicko and Tommy share my views, that's because they see things differently to you as well, and they don't need me to justify their own views.

Your way of thinking is lazy because you merely group people together - black, white, rich, poor - you don't think of people as individuals. If you met a black man who had everything he wanted, you would still call him a victim, whether he wanted you to or not. If you met a white person who had lost everything or never had much, you would still call them racist and privileged - wouldn't you?

I'm not a cheerleader of rags or anyone, but,this post is bang on the money actually.
You do come across that way Quill. Really, really, very much so.

Thank you eddie. South Carolina church shooting: Nine killed in Charleston - Page 10 2984306523

by Guest Thu Jun 25, 2015 9:56 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:Oh FFS. "Rags fails, Rags deflects, Rags lacks this, Rags lacks that".

Can you ever say anything nice about anyone Didge?

You might disagree but I failed at nothing. Those are my views, and they are perfectly valid. If you don't like that, then you are the failure.

I am not being horrible but analyzing the debate.
To me you clearly do not understand the importance of history to the problems today with racism in America.
Its obvious. You fail to place yourself in that situation as a discriminated member of a group
Its not about you Rags, it never has been, its about helping others to understand these wrongs in the world.
Take that as you will

by Guest Thu Jun 25, 2015 9:58 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:Tell you what. Next time you see a black person, go up to them and say you feel sorry for them. See what happens.

I have actually apologised to some for the behaviour of others to them.
Again you fail to grasp.

by Raggamuffin Thu Jun 25, 2015 9:59 pm

Cuchulain wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:Oh FFS. "Rags fails, Rags deflects, Rags lacks this, Rags lacks that".

Can you ever say anything nice about anyone Didge?

You might disagree but I failed at nothing. Those are my views, and they are perfectly valid. If you don't like that, then you are the failure.

I am not being horrible but analyzing the debate.
To me you clearly do not understand the importance of history to the problems today with racism in America.
Its obvious. You fail to place yourself in that situation as a discriminated member of a group
Its not about you Rags, it never has been, its about helping others to understand these wrongs in the world.
Take that as you will

No you're not, you're constantly trying to put me down again.

You are a complete failure. You're racist, patronising, and pompous. You and your ilk makes things so much worse because you constantly look down on black people and treat them like they're helpless.

by Raggamuffin Thu Jun 25, 2015 10:00 pm

Cuchulain wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:Tell you what. Next time you see a black person, go up to them and say you feel sorry for them. See what happens.

I have actually apologised to some for the behaviour of others to them.
Again you fail to grasp.

What a plonker you are. Did you ever go up to a black person and tell them you're sorry for them because they've been victims of slavery?

by Raggamuffin Thu Jun 25, 2015 10:02 pm

I have an acquaintance who's black. If I started saying to him that he's a victim and I feel sorry for him because someone somewhere who was the same colour as him was a slave at some point, he'd probably tell me to eff off.

He's a person, like you, and like me - he's not a "project", or a symbol of repression.

Grow up Didge.

by Raggamuffin Thu Jun 25, 2015 10:04 pm

Do women go around saying that they're a member of a repressed group because women didn't used to be allowed to vote?

by Guest Thu Jun 25, 2015 10:05 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:
Cuchulain wrote:

I have actually apologised to some for the behaviour of others to them.
Again you fail to grasp.

What a plonker you are. Did you ever go up to a black person and tell them you're sorry for them because they've been victims of slavery?

Poker tell.
Not met one that was a slave, but have certainly discussed slavery with them and how to help end such poor discrimination.
This is why you fail to understand and can only think from a white privileged mentality, you have been brought up with Rags.
You think its wrong to apologist for the actions of others.
We do it daily.

"I am sorry you have been in a car crash."
"I am sorry you are ill"

We did not cause these but we certainly apologise for them all the time.

Sorry do you want me to stay up longer for your lesson here?

by Guest Thu Jun 25, 2015 10:07 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:I have an acquaintance who's black. If I started saying to him that he's a victim and I feel sorry for him because someone somewhere who was the same colour as him was a slave at some point, he'd probably tell me to eff off.

He's a person, like you, and like me - he's not a "project", or a symbol of repression.

Grow up Didge.

Interesting that not one is a friend mind.
Have you ever told them you were sorry something happened to them?

by Raggamuffin Thu Jun 25, 2015 10:07 pm

Cuchulain wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:

What a plonker you are. Did you ever go up to a black person and tell them you're sorry for them because they've been victims of slavery?

Poker tell.
Not met one that was a slave, but have certainly discussed slavery with them and how to help end such poor discrimination.
This is why you fail to understand and can only think from a white privileged mentality, you have been brought up with Rags.
You think its wrong to apologist for the actions of others.
We do it daily.

"I am sorry you have been in a car crash."
"I am sorry you are ill"

We did not cause these but we certainly apologise for them all the time.

Sorry do you want me to stay up longer for your lesson here?

What you fail to understand is that you don't know everything, and that your views are damaging. You are making victims of people who don't need to be victims. You are making them feel helpless and second class.

You'll be bleating on about "white tears" next.

by Raggamuffin Thu Jun 25, 2015 10:07 pm

Cuchulain wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:I have an acquaintance who's black. If I started saying to him that he's a victim and I feel sorry for him because someone somewhere who was the same colour as him was a slave at some point, he'd probably tell me to eff off.

He's a person, like you, and like me - he's not a "project", or a symbol of repression.

Grow up Didge.

Interesting that not one is a friend mind.
Have you ever told him you were sorry something happened to them?

Why is it interesting? He's an acquaintance who I bump into and chat to from time to time.

You got a problem with that?

by Raggamuffin Thu Jun 25, 2015 10:08 pm

You are deflecting. You and Quill burble on about how black people are by default victims, and now you're pretending that you're talking about saying sorry for something personal that happened to them.

by Ben Reilly Thu Jun 25, 2015 10:09 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:You are deflecting. You and Quill burble on about how black people are by default victims, and now you're pretending that you're talking about saying sorry for something personal that happened to them.

They're born into a system here in the U.S. that remains biased against them, from education to hiring to law enforcement. How could they not be victims?

by Guest Thu Jun 25, 2015 10:09 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:
Cuchulain wrote:

Poker tell.
Not met one that was a slave, but have certainly discussed slavery with them and how to help end such poor discrimination.
This is why you fail to understand and can only think from a white privileged mentality, you have been brought up with Rags.
You think its wrong to apologist for the actions of others.
We do it daily.

"I am sorry you have been in a car crash."
"I am sorry you are ill"

We did not cause these but we certainly apologise for them all the time.

Sorry do you want me to stay up longer for your lesson here?

What you fail to understand is that you don't know everything, and that your views are damaging. You are making victims of people who don't need to be victims. You are making them feel helpless and second class.

You'll be bleating on about "white tears" next.

Never claimed I do know everything. Poor deflection again.
Poor assumption my views damage, and offers no evidence that they do you offer hearsay, no evidence.
Where did I cast anyone as a victim, unless they were?
I do not make any of them feel helpless but empowered and confident to face the discrimination they face.
You have no idea at all do you what help I do for people?

by Guest Thu Jun 25, 2015 10:11 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:
Cuchulain wrote:

Interesting that not one is a friend mind.
Have you ever told him you were sorry something happened to them?

Why is it interesting? He's an acquaintance who I bump into and chat to from time to time.

You got a problem with that?

You so missed the point on why I asked, which does not matter, another point over your head.
Again why not answer the question.

Have you ever told him you were sorry something happened to them?

by Raggamuffin Thu Jun 25, 2015 10:11 pm

Cuchulain wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:

What you fail to understand is that you don't know everything, and that your views are damaging. You are making victims of people who don't need to be victims. You are making them feel helpless and second class.

You'll be bleating on about "white tears" next.

Never claimed I do know everything. Poor deflection again.
Poor assumption my views damage, and offers no evidence that they do you offer hearsay, no evidence.
Where did I cast anyone as a victim, unless they were?
I do not make any of them feel helpless but empowered and confident to face the discrimination they face.
You have no idea at all do you what help I do for people?

Then stop behaving like you know everything, with your constant garbage about how I "failed", how I "don't understand", and how I'm "deflecting".

Your views are damaging because you are making victims out of people by default.

by Guest Thu Jun 25, 2015 10:12 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:You are deflecting. You and Quill burble on about how black people are by default victims, and now you're pretending that you're talking about saying sorry for something personal that happened to them.

That is not countering, but backing yourself into a courner again.
Debate the points Rags

by Raggamuffin Thu Jun 25, 2015 10:13 pm

Cuchulain wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:

Why is it interesting? He's an acquaintance who I bump into and chat to from time to time.

You got a problem with that?

You so missed the point on why I asked, which does not matter, another point over your head.
Again why not answer the question.

Have you ever told him you were sorry something happened to them?

Why is it interesting that "not one is a friend then"?

Who are you to decide that something "happened" to someone I know? You don't even know him.

by Raggamuffin Thu Jun 25, 2015 10:13 pm

Cuchulain wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:You are deflecting. You and Quill burble on about how black people are by default victims, and now you're pretending that you're talking about saying sorry for something personal that happened to them.

That is not countering, but backing yourself into a courner again.
Debate the points Rags

Oh I am - you're the one who stuck your beak in, got patronising, pompous, and up yourself. I wasn't even talking to you, I was talking to Quill. He can answer for himself I suppose.

by Guest Thu Jun 25, 2015 10:15 pm

black people are victims by default?? how racist is that...

is someone implying black people are weak and pathetic?

by Guest Thu Jun 25, 2015 10:15 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:
Cuchulain wrote:

Never claimed I do know everything. Poor deflection again.
Poor assumption my views damage, and offers no evidence that they do you offer hearsay, no evidence.
Where did I cast anyone as a victim, unless they were?
I do not make any of them feel helpless but empowered and confident to face the discrimination they face.
You have no idea at all do you what help I do for people?

Then stop behaving like you know everything, with your constant garbage about how I "failed", how I "don't understand", and how I'm "deflecting".

Your views are damaging because you are making victims out of people by default.

I should frame that.

Again you are the one interpreting a view that I am and that you again have issue with that.
I do not claim to know everything. If you think I do, I take that as a compliment
I m not the issue here, what is the issue is the fact you have a problem over an interpreted view you have with me. Sorry Rags, take one good look at to why that would bother you?
You claim damaging again and offer no reason how it does damage.
Again I help empower people and help them see their own confidence that they have inside.
You now scooby doo on this do you?

by Raggamuffin Thu Jun 25, 2015 10:16 pm

heavenlyfatheragain wrote:black people are victims by default?? how racist is that...

is someone implying black people are weak and pathetic?

Exactly, but that is what Quill and Didge think.

by Raggamuffin Thu Jun 25, 2015 10:17 pm

Cuchulain wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:

Then stop behaving like you know everything, with your constant garbage about how I "failed", how I "don't understand", and how I'm "deflecting".

Your views are damaging because you are making victims out of people by default.

I should frame that.

Again you are the one interpreting a view that I am and that you again have issue with that.
I m not the issue here, what is the issue is the fact you have a problem over an interpreted view you have with me. Sorry Rags, take one good look at to why that would bother you?
You claim damaging again and offer no reason how it does damage.
Again I help empower people and help them see their own confidence that they have inside.
You now scooby doo on this do you?

What bothers me is your entire personality. Have you no idea what an utter plonker you are?

by Guest Thu Jun 25, 2015 10:17 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:
Cuchulain wrote:

You so missed the point on why I asked, which does not matter, another point over your head.
Again why not answer the question.

Have you ever told him you were sorry something happened to them?

Why is it interesting that "not one is a friend then"?

Who are you to decide that something "happened" to someone I know? You don't even know him.

Still no answer to a simple questions, why are you afraid to answer.
Just was intrigued to not one friend you have.
There you go I answered for you, see how easy it is Rags?

by Raggamuffin Thu Jun 25, 2015 10:18 pm

I can't believe that you claim to empower people and help them see their own confidence. I should think you turn them to drink!

by Guest Thu Jun 25, 2015 10:18 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:
Cuchulain wrote:

That is not countering, but backing yourself into a courner again.
Debate the points Rags

Oh I am - you're the one who stuck your beak in, got patronising, pompous, and up yourself. I wasn't even talking to you, I was talking to Quill. He can answer for himself I suppose.

Deflection again.

by Raggamuffin Thu Jun 25, 2015 10:19 pm

Cuchulain wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:

Why is it interesting that "not one is a friend then"?

Who are you to decide that something "happened" to someone I know? You don't even know him.

Still no answer to a simple questions, why are you afraid to answer.
Just was intrigued to not one friend you have.
There you go I answered for you, see how easy it is Rags?

What does "not one friend you have" mean?

Answer the question.

by Ben Reilly Thu Jun 25, 2015 10:19 pm

Ben_Reilly wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:You are deflecting. You and Quill burble on about how black people are by default victims, and now you're pretending that you're talking about saying sorry for something personal that happened to them.

They're born into a system here in the U.S. that remains biased against them, from education to hiring to law enforcement. How could they not be victims?

by Raggamuffin Thu Jun 25, 2015 10:20 pm

Cuchulain wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:

Oh I am - you're the one who stuck your beak in, got patronising, pompous, and up yourself. I wasn't even talking to you, I was talking to Quill. He can answer for himself I suppose.

Deflection again.

It's very relevant because all your posts on this subject reflect your patronising, pompous, up-yourself personality.

by Guest Thu Jun 25, 2015 10:20 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:
Cuchulain wrote:

I should frame that.

Again you are the one interpreting a view that I am and that you again have issue with that.
I m not the issue here, what is the issue is the fact you have a problem over an interpreted view you have with me. Sorry Rags, take one good look at to why that would bother you?
You claim damaging again and offer no reason how it does damage.
Again I help empower people and help them see their own confidence that they have inside.
You now scooby doo on this do you?

What bothers me is your entire personality. Have you no idea what an utter plonker you are?

I wonder how many personalities bother you.
That is the really interesting part psychologically.
So it bothers you,. So again you need to understand why, and why you allow it to bother you.
You do not now how to problem solve do you Rags?

by Raggamuffin Thu Jun 25, 2015 10:21 pm

Ben_Reilly wrote:
Ben_Reilly wrote:

They're born into a system here in the U.S. that remains biased against them, from education to hiring to law enforcement. How could they not be victims?

You, Quill, and Didge should share a house. You could spend every waking moment discussing how sorry you feel for people who haven't asked you to feel sorry for them. Laughing

by Raggamuffin Thu Jun 25, 2015 10:21 pm

Cuchulain wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:

What bothers me is your entire personality. Have you no idea what an utter plonker you are?

I wonder how many personalities bother you.
That is the really interesting part psychologically.
So it bothers you,. So again you need to understand why, and why you allow it to bother you.
You do not now how to problem solve do you Rags?

I know how to solve the problem of you. Sadly, Ben doesn't agree. Laughing

by Guest Thu Jun 25, 2015 10:21 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:I can't believe that you claim to empower people and help them see their own confidence. I should think you turn them to drink!

No problem that you do not believe Rags, the debate does not even hinge on that, does it?
So now another poor deflection

by Raggamuffin Thu Jun 25, 2015 10:22 pm

Cuchulain wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:I can't believe that you claim to empower people and help them see their own confidence. I should think you turn them to drink!

No problem that you do not believe Rags, the debate does not even hinge on that, does it?
So now another poor deflection

Are you the same in "real life"? Do you go around telling people that they've failed, that they understand nothing, and that you know so much more than them?

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