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About Us & RulesCharleston shooting survivor calls Dylann Roof 'evil' in tearful testimony
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Charleston shooting survivor calls Dylann Roof 'evil' in tearful testimony
by Guest Thu Dec 08, 2016 5:24 pm
Felicia Sanders recounts moment her 26-year-old son was gunned down in assault on Bible study class in emotional testimony on opening day of Roof’s trial
Dylann Roof appears at a court hearing in Charleston in July 2015. Prosecutors say it will take six to seven days to make case against Roof. Photograph: Grace Beahm/AP
One of the survivors of the Charleston church massacre described the young white man accused of murdering nine of her fellow parishioners as “evil, evil, evil as can be” during powerful testimony that left many in the courtroom in tears on Wednesday.
Felicia Sanders lost her 26-year-old son Tywanza Sanders in the assault, and described the moment she saw 22-year-old Dylann Roof open fire on her bible study class at the Mother Emanuel church in Charleston, during an attack prosecutors argue was planned months in advance and motivated by violent racism.
Sanders told the court that Roof opened fire on the group as they closed their eyes to pray at the end of the class, and first shot the church’s pastor and state senator Clementa Pinckney, who had invited the visitor to sit next to him.
“I screamed, ‘He has a gun.’ By then he had already shot Rev Pinckney,” Sanders said through tears. “I said: ‘Everybody get under the table.’ That’s when he started shooting up the room.”
Sanders said Roof then gunned down the Rev Daniel Simmons, who had run towards Pinckney shouting: “Let me check on my pastor, I need to check on my pastor.”
“Then Rev Simmons got shot,” she said.
The survivor told the court she had hidden under a table in the church’s basement and played dead, clutching her 11-year-old granddaughter, who had also been present at the class, to her chest.
“She was saying: ‘Granny, I’m so scared.’ I said: ‘Just be quiet.’ I said: ‘Just play dead. Play dead.’ And so I muzzled her face to my body, I muzzled her face to my body so tight that I thought I suffocated her because I didn’t want her to make a sound.”
As Roof continued shooting, he spared one of the congregants, Polly Sheppard, according to assistant US prosecutor Jay Richardson, asking her whether she had been shot and stating he had spared her because “he wanted to have her alive to tell the story”.
At this point, Sanders said, her son Tywanza, who had already been shot, got up and attempted to reason with Roof, saying: “Why are you doing this? Why are you doing this?”
Addressing Roof, who had not looked at Sanders during her entire testimony, Sanders said: “And the defendant over there, with his head hang down refusing to look over at me, said: ‘I have to do this.’ And that’s when he put about five bullets in my son.”
After Roof fled the church, she said, she watched her son die.
“I watched him take his last breath,” she said. “I watched my son come into this world. I watched my son leave this life.”
Prosecutors have accused Roof of acting with a “cold and hateful heart” as he gunned down the nine African American parishioners during the brutal hate crime in June.
During opening arguments in the federal trial, assistant US attorney Jay Richardson said he intended to prove that the assault was “cold and calculated” and “racist retribution for perceived offenses against the white race”.
Roof faces 33 charges, including hate crimes, murder, attempted murder and obstruction of religion, and could face the death penalty. The 22-year-old has also been charged in a state murder case, which also carries the death penalty and is scheduled follow this trial.
He is accused of entering the Bible study class at the Mother Emanuel AME church in Charleston on the evening of 17 June 2015, listening to the lesson and then opening fire on attendees as he uttered racial insults.
There was heavy security at the US courthouse in downtown Charleston, with local police and federal officers from the Department of Homeland Security positioned outside the building.
As Richardson commenced his opening remarks, he paid tribute to the nine people killed during the attack, and displayed photographs of the victims as he spoke about about each one individually. Susie Jackson, 87 and the oldest victim, was “a proud matriarch”, he said. Ethel Lance, 70, was “utterly devoted” to the Mother Emanuel church, while the three clergy killed in the attack, Pinckney, Simmons, and DePayne Middleton-Doctor, were “inspiring ministers”.
Myra Thompson, 59, had just received her preaching certificate and was planning to lead Bible study class for the first time that evening, Richardson said.
Roof, who sat motionless in the courtroom in a grey-and-white-striped jail-issued uniform throughout the statement, stared away from the photographs as they flashed up on screen. Before proceedings began he rocked back and forth on his chair, occasionally combing through papers on the desk in front of him.
Richardson said that Roof had come to the church armed with eight magazines of ammunition and had waited until the group had “closed their eyes to offer prayer” before he commenced the attack. “It was at that moment he made clear what he had been planning for months,” Richardson said.
He said Roof first opened fire on Pinckney, who had offered the 22 year-old a seat next to him during the class, shooting the pastor “over and over again” and then opening fire on Simmons, who had rushed towards Roof after he shot Pinckney.
Richardson said Roof then proceeded to shoot each victim “over and over again”, adding that the white supremacist emptied an “entire magazine” on 87-year-old Jackson.
Richardson described the moment that 26-year-old Tywanza Sanders, who had been shot, attempted to reason with Roof, telling him: “We mean you no harm.”
Roof, Richardson said, then replied: “Y’all are taking over the world,” before he repeatedly shot Sanders.
The six public benches on the righthand side of the court were filled almost entirely with members of the church and the families of the victims. Many sobbed during the most graphic parts of Richardson’s opening argument.
The prosecutor accused Roof of scouting the church out “on repeated trips” and calling to enquire about the timing of services. On the day of the attack, Richardson said, Roof travelled to his father’s house to upload a manifesto to his website.
“He chose that church because of the impact it would have,” Richardson said, claiming Roof wanted the attack to “resonate across the nation”. Roof confessed to the killings during an interview with the FBI shortly after he was arrested, the prosecutor said, repeatedly stating “he had to do it” because “white supremacy groups were just talk”.
Richardson warned the 12 jurors they would be shown “gruesome” images of the scene’s aftermath. “Seeing what he left behind must be shown,” he said.
“You labour here seeking the truth,” Richardson said. “His hatred … will not win in this courtroom. Justice must prevail.”
A number of first responders also testified during the first day’s proceedings, describing the bloody aftermath of the shooting. The court played video from one officer’s body camera, which briefly showed a body on the floor and a young girl, one of the survivors, being escorted out of the church.
“My baby dead. My baby dead,” a voice can be heard saying. “The preacher gone. Everybody gone.”
Roof has indicated to the court he will represent himself during the sentencing part of the trial, where the jury will likely have to decide whether to sentence the 22-year-old to death.
During opening arguments for the defence, David Bruck indicated the defence may call no witnesses at all and said that the events Richardson described “clearly did occur”. But he urged the jury to ask of Roof: “Who is he? Why did he do it? Where did this come from?”
“Ask yourself where this extraordinary degree, this intense degree of hatred came from,” Bruck said.
At the end of opening arguments, a white woman believed to be Roof’s mother collapsed. She had been shaking and sobbing throughout proceedings.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/dec/07/charleston-shooting-dylann-roof-trial-death-penalty
How the hell can someone get to a point that they will gun people down just because they are a different race?
Racist parents? Racist communities? On line manipulation?
Racist parents should have their children taken away, it's a form of abuse.
Dylann Roof appears at a court hearing in Charleston in July 2015. Prosecutors say it will take six to seven days to make case against Roof. Photograph: Grace Beahm/AP
One of the survivors of the Charleston church massacre described the young white man accused of murdering nine of her fellow parishioners as “evil, evil, evil as can be” during powerful testimony that left many in the courtroom in tears on Wednesday.
Felicia Sanders lost her 26-year-old son Tywanza Sanders in the assault, and described the moment she saw 22-year-old Dylann Roof open fire on her bible study class at the Mother Emanuel church in Charleston, during an attack prosecutors argue was planned months in advance and motivated by violent racism.
Sanders told the court that Roof opened fire on the group as they closed their eyes to pray at the end of the class, and first shot the church’s pastor and state senator Clementa Pinckney, who had invited the visitor to sit next to him.
“I screamed, ‘He has a gun.’ By then he had already shot Rev Pinckney,” Sanders said through tears. “I said: ‘Everybody get under the table.’ That’s when he started shooting up the room.”
Sanders said Roof then gunned down the Rev Daniel Simmons, who had run towards Pinckney shouting: “Let me check on my pastor, I need to check on my pastor.”
“Then Rev Simmons got shot,” she said.
The survivor told the court she had hidden under a table in the church’s basement and played dead, clutching her 11-year-old granddaughter, who had also been present at the class, to her chest.
“She was saying: ‘Granny, I’m so scared.’ I said: ‘Just be quiet.’ I said: ‘Just play dead. Play dead.’ And so I muzzled her face to my body, I muzzled her face to my body so tight that I thought I suffocated her because I didn’t want her to make a sound.”
As Roof continued shooting, he spared one of the congregants, Polly Sheppard, according to assistant US prosecutor Jay Richardson, asking her whether she had been shot and stating he had spared her because “he wanted to have her alive to tell the story”.
At this point, Sanders said, her son Tywanza, who had already been shot, got up and attempted to reason with Roof, saying: “Why are you doing this? Why are you doing this?”
Addressing Roof, who had not looked at Sanders during her entire testimony, Sanders said: “And the defendant over there, with his head hang down refusing to look over at me, said: ‘I have to do this.’ And that’s when he put about five bullets in my son.”
After Roof fled the church, she said, she watched her son die.
“I watched him take his last breath,” she said. “I watched my son come into this world. I watched my son leave this life.”
Prosecutors have accused Roof of acting with a “cold and hateful heart” as he gunned down the nine African American parishioners during the brutal hate crime in June.
During opening arguments in the federal trial, assistant US attorney Jay Richardson said he intended to prove that the assault was “cold and calculated” and “racist retribution for perceived offenses against the white race”.
Roof faces 33 charges, including hate crimes, murder, attempted murder and obstruction of religion, and could face the death penalty. The 22-year-old has also been charged in a state murder case, which also carries the death penalty and is scheduled follow this trial.
He is accused of entering the Bible study class at the Mother Emanuel AME church in Charleston on the evening of 17 June 2015, listening to the lesson and then opening fire on attendees as he uttered racial insults.
There was heavy security at the US courthouse in downtown Charleston, with local police and federal officers from the Department of Homeland Security positioned outside the building.
As Richardson commenced his opening remarks, he paid tribute to the nine people killed during the attack, and displayed photographs of the victims as he spoke about about each one individually. Susie Jackson, 87 and the oldest victim, was “a proud matriarch”, he said. Ethel Lance, 70, was “utterly devoted” to the Mother Emanuel church, while the three clergy killed in the attack, Pinckney, Simmons, and DePayne Middleton-Doctor, were “inspiring ministers”.
Myra Thompson, 59, had just received her preaching certificate and was planning to lead Bible study class for the first time that evening, Richardson said.
Roof, who sat motionless in the courtroom in a grey-and-white-striped jail-issued uniform throughout the statement, stared away from the photographs as they flashed up on screen. Before proceedings began he rocked back and forth on his chair, occasionally combing through papers on the desk in front of him.
Richardson said that Roof had come to the church armed with eight magazines of ammunition and had waited until the group had “closed their eyes to offer prayer” before he commenced the attack. “It was at that moment he made clear what he had been planning for months,” Richardson said.
He said Roof first opened fire on Pinckney, who had offered the 22 year-old a seat next to him during the class, shooting the pastor “over and over again” and then opening fire on Simmons, who had rushed towards Roof after he shot Pinckney.
Richardson said Roof then proceeded to shoot each victim “over and over again”, adding that the white supremacist emptied an “entire magazine” on 87-year-old Jackson.
Richardson described the moment that 26-year-old Tywanza Sanders, who had been shot, attempted to reason with Roof, telling him: “We mean you no harm.”
Roof, Richardson said, then replied: “Y’all are taking over the world,” before he repeatedly shot Sanders.
The six public benches on the righthand side of the court were filled almost entirely with members of the church and the families of the victims. Many sobbed during the most graphic parts of Richardson’s opening argument.
The prosecutor accused Roof of scouting the church out “on repeated trips” and calling to enquire about the timing of services. On the day of the attack, Richardson said, Roof travelled to his father’s house to upload a manifesto to his website.
“He chose that church because of the impact it would have,” Richardson said, claiming Roof wanted the attack to “resonate across the nation”. Roof confessed to the killings during an interview with the FBI shortly after he was arrested, the prosecutor said, repeatedly stating “he had to do it” because “white supremacy groups were just talk”.
Richardson warned the 12 jurors they would be shown “gruesome” images of the scene’s aftermath. “Seeing what he left behind must be shown,” he said.
“You labour here seeking the truth,” Richardson said. “His hatred … will not win in this courtroom. Justice must prevail.”
A number of first responders also testified during the first day’s proceedings, describing the bloody aftermath of the shooting. The court played video from one officer’s body camera, which briefly showed a body on the floor and a young girl, one of the survivors, being escorted out of the church.
“My baby dead. My baby dead,” a voice can be heard saying. “The preacher gone. Everybody gone.”
Roof has indicated to the court he will represent himself during the sentencing part of the trial, where the jury will likely have to decide whether to sentence the 22-year-old to death.
During opening arguments for the defence, David Bruck indicated the defence may call no witnesses at all and said that the events Richardson described “clearly did occur”. But he urged the jury to ask of Roof: “Who is he? Why did he do it? Where did this come from?”
“Ask yourself where this extraordinary degree, this intense degree of hatred came from,” Bruck said.
At the end of opening arguments, a white woman believed to be Roof’s mother collapsed. She had been shaking and sobbing throughout proceedings.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/dec/07/charleston-shooting-dylann-roof-trial-death-penalty
How the hell can someone get to a point that they will gun people down just because they are a different race?
Racist parents? Racist communities? On line manipulation?
Racist parents should have their children taken away, it's a form of abuse.
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Re: Charleston shooting survivor calls Dylann Roof 'evil' in tearful testimony
by Raggamuffin Thu Dec 08, 2016 5:29 pm
Why are they having a Federal trial and a State trial? What if the results are different? Not that they will be - I don't see how a jury could find him not guilty of murder.
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Re: Charleston shooting survivor calls Dylann Roof 'evil' in tearful testimony
by Original Quill Thu Dec 08, 2016 5:36 pm
Yes, he is evil. But then, all of racism is evil...and by association, all of the southern US is evil to the degree that they believe in racial superiority, class superiority and institutional white supremacy. Their cops are the Brown Shirts in this disturbance, and when they are brought up for justice--as in the case of police officer Michael Slager--they are given a pat on the back and an attaboy!
I hardly think it ends with Dylan Roof, and therefore I don't think he is the biggest problem. He is a problem, yes--but like that lottery ticket, he is hardly the winner that will end it all. The real evil is a belief system that countenances profiling and prejudgment based on skin color or any other arbitrary characteristic.
I hardly think it ends with Dylan Roof, and therefore I don't think he is the biggest problem. He is a problem, yes--but like that lottery ticket, he is hardly the winner that will end it all. The real evil is a belief system that countenances profiling and prejudgment based on skin color or any other arbitrary characteristic.
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Re: Charleston shooting survivor calls Dylann Roof 'evil' in tearful testimony
by Raggamuffin Thu Dec 08, 2016 5:37 pm
I don't think you can equate ideas of racial superiority with murder really.
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Re: Charleston shooting survivor calls Dylann Roof 'evil' in tearful testimony
by Original Quill Thu Dec 08, 2016 5:44 pm
Raggamuffin wrote:Why are they having a Federal trial and a State trial? What if the results are different? Not that they will be - I don't see how a jury could find him not guilty of murder.
Different laws. In the federal system, it involves murder for hate crime reasons and racial motivations. The state charges, I think, are simple murder.
In effect, under 42 USC 1981, a post-civil war law, the Federal Government has a second shot at a racially motivated crime. It narrows the possibility for a criminal to escape due to local bias, such as just happened in the North Charleston case of Michael Slager. One can never underestimate the severity of racism in the southern United States.
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Re: Charleston shooting survivor calls Dylann Roof 'evil' in tearful testimony
by Original Quill Thu Dec 08, 2016 5:47 pm
Raggamuffin wrote:I don't think you can equate ideas of racial superiority with murder really.
And so even if an admitted killer kills for the stated purpose of racial superiority, he should walk? I wounder how that test would stand with other homicidal motivations...rape or robbery, for instance.
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Re: Charleston shooting survivor calls Dylann Roof 'evil' in tearful testimony
by eddie Thu Dec 08, 2016 5:50 pm
That mother's statement was heartbreaking.
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Re: Charleston shooting survivor calls Dylann Roof 'evil' in tearful testimony
by Raggamuffin Thu Dec 08, 2016 5:51 pm
Original Quill wrote:Raggamuffin wrote:I don't think you can equate ideas of racial superiority with murder really.
And so even if an admitted killer kills for the stated purpose of racial superiority, he should walk? I wounder how that test would stand with other homicidal motivations...rape or robbery, for instance.
The point is that having ideas about racial superiority don't necessarily lead someone to murder anyone. You can't say that such ideas are as bad as murder IMO.
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Re: Charleston shooting survivor calls Dylann Roof 'evil' in tearful testimony
by Guest Thu Dec 08, 2016 6:02 pm
Raggamuffin wrote:Original Quill wrote:
And so even if an admitted killer kills for the stated purpose of racial superiority, he should walk? I wounder how that test would stand with other homicidal motivations...rape or robbery, for instance.
The point is that having ideas about racial superiority don't necessarily lead someone to murder anyone. You can't say that such ideas are as bad as murder IMO.
Total claptrap, he murdered them because he thought being black was inferior to being white. We have one of those of the forum.
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Re: Charleston shooting survivor calls Dylann Roof 'evil' in tearful testimony
by Original Quill Thu Dec 08, 2016 6:04 pm
Raggamuffin wrote:Original Quill wrote:
And so even if an admitted killer kills for the stated purpose of racial superiority, he should walk? I wounder how that test would stand with other homicidal motivations...rape or robbery, for instance.
The point is that having ideas about racial superiority don't necessarily lead someone to murder anyone. You can't say that such ideas are as bad as murder IMO.
YES THEY DO, as in the instant case of Dylann Roof. On his website, he justified the killings by prospectively claiming:
Dylann Roof wrote:I have no choice. I am not in the position to, alone, go into the ghetto and fight. I chose Charleston because it is most historic city in my state, and at one time had the highest ratio of blacks to Whites in the country. We have no skinheads, no real KKK, no one doing anything but talking on the internet. Well someone has to have the bravery to take it to the real world, and I guess that has to be me.
He openly stated he wanted to start a race war. Plus, as he shot and killed the black parishioners of the Charleston Methodist Church, he declared: “You rape our women, and you’re taking over our country.” Pretty clear in this case.
As far as the equivalency issue, if purpose X is the reason for murder Y, how can you say the "idea" is not linked to the murder? If one caused the other, it is as bad.
Why are you defending such a heinous killer?
Last edited by Original Quill on Thu Dec 08, 2016 6:11 pm; edited 3 times in total
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Re: Charleston shooting survivor calls Dylann Roof 'evil' in tearful testimony
by Raggamuffin Thu Dec 08, 2016 6:05 pm
sassy wrote:Raggamuffin wrote:
The point is that having ideas about racial superiority don't necessarily lead someone to murder anyone. You can't say that such ideas are as bad as murder IMO.
Total claptrap, he murdered them because he thought being black was inferior to being white. We have one of those of the forum.
I didn't claim he didn't, although I'm not convinced he thought they were inferior as such. I was responding to Quill's post where he implied that merely having ideas about racial superiority was as evil as murdering someone based on those ideas.
Do you actually think that the two things are the same?
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Re: Charleston shooting survivor calls Dylann Roof 'evil' in tearful testimony
by Raggamuffin Thu Dec 08, 2016 6:06 pm
Original Quill wrote:Raggamuffin wrote:
The point is that having ideas about racial superiority don't necessarily lead someone to murder anyone. You can't say that such ideas are as bad as murder IMO.
YES THEY DO, as in the instant case of Dylann Roof. On his website, he justified the killings by prospectively claiming:Dylann Roof wrote:I have no choice. I am not in the position to, alone, go into the ghetto and fight. I chose Charleston because it is most historic city in my state, and at one time had the highest ratio of blacks to Whites in the country. We have no skinheads, no real KKK, no one doing anything but talking on the internet. Well someone has to have the bravery to take it to the real world, and I guess that has to be me.
He openly stated he wanted to start a race war. Plus, as he shot and killed the black parishioners of the Charleston Methodist Church, he declared: “You rape our women, and you’re taking over our country.” Pretty clear in this case.
Why are you defending such a heinous killer?
So you think that anyone who holds those views actually murders someone? In that case, very few people have those ideas.
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Re: Charleston shooting survivor calls Dylann Roof 'evil' in tearful testimony
by Guest Thu Dec 08, 2016 6:06 pm
Raggamuffin wrote:sassy wrote:
Total claptrap, he murdered them because he thought being black was inferior to being white. We have one of those of the forum.
I didn't claim he didn't, although I'm not convinced he thought they were inferior as such. I was responding to Quill's post where he implied that merely having ideas about racial superiority was as evil as murdering someone based on those ideas.
Do you actually think that the two things are the same?
Each in their own way, yes I do, because without the first the second wouldn't happen. And racism is pure evil.
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Re: Charleston shooting survivor calls Dylann Roof 'evil' in tearful testimony
by Raggamuffin Thu Dec 08, 2016 6:07 pm
Oh, and where have I defended him? More lies.
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Re: Charleston shooting survivor calls Dylann Roof 'evil' in tearful testimony
by Raggamuffin Thu Dec 08, 2016 6:08 pm
sassy wrote:Raggamuffin wrote:
I didn't claim he didn't, although I'm not convinced he thought they were inferior as such. I was responding to Quill's post where he implied that merely having ideas about racial superiority was as evil as murdering someone based on those ideas.
Do you actually think that the two things are the same?
Each in their own way, yes I do, because without the first the second wouldn't happen. And racism is pure evil.
Well I don't think that having such ideas is the same as murdering someone based on those ideas.
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Re: Charleston shooting survivor calls Dylann Roof 'evil' in tearful testimony
by Original Quill Thu Dec 08, 2016 6:14 pm
Raggamuffin wrote:Original Quill wrote:
YES THEY DO, as in the instant case of Dylann Roof. On his website, he justified the killings by prospectively claiming:
He openly stated he wanted to start a race war. Plus, as he shot and killed the black parishioners of the Charleston Methodist Church, he declared: “You rape our women, and you’re taking over our country.” Pretty clear in this case.
Why are you defending such a heinous killer?
So you think that anyone who holds those views actually murders someone? In that case, very few people have those ideas.
I think if someone murders and states he is doing so for those reasons, than s/he should be held for murdering on those premises. The two are not separate in a murder trial. The murder must have taken place, and it must be demonstrated it was for those (racial) purposes.
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Re: Charleston shooting survivor calls Dylann Roof 'evil' in tearful testimony
by Original Quill Thu Dec 08, 2016 6:16 pm
Raggamuffin wrote:sassy wrote:
Each in their own way, yes I do, because without the first the second wouldn't happen. And racism is pure evil.
Well I don't think that having such ideas is the same as murdering someone based on those ideas.
This argument is a red herring. The reasons are only of concern because someone murdered someone else for the stated purpose.
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Re: Charleston shooting survivor calls Dylann Roof 'evil' in tearful testimony
by Raggamuffin Thu Dec 08, 2016 6:17 pm
Original Quill wrote:Raggamuffin wrote:
Well I don't think that having such ideas is the same as murdering someone based on those ideas.
This argument is a red herring. The reasons are only of concern because someone murdered someone else for the stated purpose.
I was merely addressing the post you made earlier.
Yes, he is evil. But then, all of racism is evil...and by association, all of the southern US is evil to the degree that they believe in racial superiority, class superiority and institutional white supremacy.
You appeared to be equating beliefs and ideas with actually murdering someone.
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Re: Charleston shooting survivor calls Dylann Roof 'evil' in tearful testimony
by Original Quill Thu Dec 08, 2016 6:18 pm
Raggamuffin wrote:Oh, and where have I defended him? More lies.
To respond would be gratuitous. I can't believe you are so ignorant as to pose such a red herring argument, and then self-righteously claim to be the victim of lies.
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Re: Charleston shooting survivor calls Dylann Roof 'evil' in tearful testimony
by Raggamuffin Thu Dec 08, 2016 6:20 pm
Original Quill wrote:Raggamuffin wrote:
So you think that anyone who holds those views actually murders someone? In that case, very few people have those ideas.
I think if someone murders and states he is doing so for those reasons, than s/he should be held for murdering on those premises. The two are not separate in a murder trial. The murder must have taken place, and it must be demonstrated it was for those (racial) purposes.
Will it make a difference to the sentence when he's found guilty? He's either going to be sentenced to death or he's going to prison for life, yes? You can't shoot up a whole room full of people and expect to get a slapped wrist.
It was clearly racially motivated, but he appeared to be under the impression that black people are guilty of something, not necessarily that he thought they were inferior.
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Re: Charleston shooting survivor calls Dylann Roof 'evil' in tearful testimony
by Raggamuffin Thu Dec 08, 2016 6:20 pm
Original Quill wrote:Raggamuffin wrote:Oh, and where have I defended him? More lies.
To respond would be gratuitous. I can't believe you are so ignorant as to pose such a red herring argument, and then self-righteously claim to be the victim of lies.
In other words, you concede that I haven't defended him as you claimed. Well done.
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Re: Charleston shooting survivor calls Dylann Roof 'evil' in tearful testimony
by Original Quill Thu Dec 08, 2016 6:22 pm
Raggamuffin wrote:Original Quill wrote:
This argument is a red herring. The reasons are only of concern because someone murdered someone else for the stated purpose.
I was merely addressing the post you made earlier.Yes, he is evil. But then, all of racism is evil...and by association, all of the southern US is evil to the degree that they believe in racial superiority, class superiority and institutional white supremacy.
You appeared to be equating beliefs and ideas with actually murdering someone.
No, that wasn't what you were doing. You were changing the parameters. The reasoning is that the motivation (ideas) is linked to the crime. You, then, separated the two, and suggested the penalty would be for having the ideas.
Yes, the ideas of racism are evil, but a crime needs a material act. You know that, and don't pretend otherwise. You are being disingenuous.
Last edited by Original Quill on Thu Dec 08, 2016 6:24 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Charleston shooting survivor calls Dylann Roof 'evil' in tearful testimony
by Raggamuffin Thu Dec 08, 2016 6:24 pm
Original Quill wrote:Raggamuffin wrote:
I was merely addressing the post you made earlier.
You appeared to be equating beliefs and ideas with actually murdering someone.
No, that wasn't what you were doing. You were changing the parameters. The reasoning is that the motivation (ideas) is liked to the crime. You, then, separated the two, and suggested the penalty would be for having the ideas.
Yes, the ideas racism are evil, but a crime needs a material act. You know that, and don't pretend otherwise. You are being disingenuous.
You implied that anyone who had such ideas or beliefs was as evil as someone who murders because of those beliefs.
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Re: Charleston shooting survivor calls Dylann Roof 'evil' in tearful testimony
by Guest Thu Dec 08, 2016 6:24 pm
A .) heinous crime was committed; we know because there are a few dead/bloodied bodies - and that takes care of what the hell happened and since they are covered in bullet holesOriginal Quill wrote:Raggamuffin wrote:
So you think that anyone who holds those views actually murders someone? In that case, very few people have those ideas.
I think if someone murders and states he is doing so for those reasons, than s/he should be held for murdering on those premises. The two are not separate in a murder trial. The murder must have taken place, and it must be demonstrated it was for those (racial) purposes.
B.) method of death: Dylan Roof had numerous weapons within his reach - the cause of death isn't in question
C.) the MOTIVE; what motivated this young man to carry out his heinous plans and reasoning for doing this to these specific people! Not a random act of 'drive by shooting'...he'd planned it - worked through the time line - posted a diatribe about his intent - his motivations for this heinous actions!
He's more then met the requirement for a 'Racial/Terrorist Hate Crime' by my states standards.
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Re: Charleston shooting survivor calls Dylann Roof 'evil' in tearful testimony
by Original Quill Thu Dec 08, 2016 6:31 pm
Raggamuffin wrote:Original Quill wrote:
No, that wasn't what you were doing. You were changing the parameters. The reasoning is that the motivation (ideas) is liked to the crime. You, then, separated the two, and suggested the penalty would be for having the ideas.
Yes, the ideas racism are evil, but a crime needs a material act. You know that, and don't pretend otherwise. You are being disingenuous.
You implied that anyone who had such ideas or beliefs was as evil as someone who murders because of those beliefs.
Motives count in homicides. If you kill for any reason, you will be prosecuted for murder. But if you kill with the intent of a sex crime, or for monetary gain, then the charged is enhanced. That is the "idea" (as motive) enhancing the 'crime' (murder).
The only difference is that with crimes under 42 USC 1981, the crime requires the motive (race, or any violation of civil rights) as a condition precedent for bringing the charges. It is not a mere enhancement; it is a part of the criminal elements that give the Federal Government jurisdiction.
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Re: Charleston shooting survivor calls Dylann Roof 'evil' in tearful testimony
by Raggamuffin Thu Dec 08, 2016 6:34 pm
Original Quill wrote:Raggamuffin wrote:
You implied that anyone who had such ideas or beliefs was as evil as someone who murders because of those beliefs.
Motives count in homicides. If you kill for any reason, you will be prosecuted for murder. But if you kill with the intent of a sex crime, or for monetary gain, then the charged is enhanced. That is the "idea" (as motive) enhancing the 'crime' (murder).
The only difference is that with crimes under 42 USC 1981, the crime requires the motive (race) as a condition precedent for bringing the charges. It is not a mere enhancement; it is a part of the criminal elements that give the Federal Government jurisdiction.
Of course motives count, but let's just say that it wasn't proved that it was racially motivated. He's still not going to walk or get a light sentence - he's going down for life at least. If he gets less than that, I'll be amazed. I'd be even more amazed if he was actually acquitted!
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Re: Charleston shooting survivor calls Dylann Roof 'evil' in tearful testimony
by Original Quill Thu Dec 08, 2016 6:40 pm
Raggamuffin wrote:Original Quill wrote:
Motives count in homicides. If you kill for any reason, you will be prosecuted for murder. But if you kill with the intent of a sex crime, or for monetary gain, then the charged is enhanced. That is the "idea" (as motive) enhancing the 'crime' (murder).
The only difference is that with crimes under 42 USC 1981, the crime requires the motive (race) as a condition precedent for bringing the charges. It is not a mere enhancement; it is a part of the criminal elements that give the Federal Government jurisdiction.
Of course motives count, but let's just say that it wasn't proved that it was racially motivated. He's still not going to walk or get a light sentence - he's going down for life at least. If he gets less than that, I'll be amazed. I'd be even more amazed if he was actually acquitted!
The state trial begins on, I believe, January 17, 2017. If the feds can't prove racial motivation, they will have to rely on the state court. As I say, in the federal case proof of a race hate crime is a condition precedent for bringing the action.
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Re: Charleston shooting survivor calls Dylann Roof 'evil' in tearful testimony
by Raggamuffin Thu Dec 08, 2016 6:51 pm
I don't suppose he'll be giving evidence himself, but it would be interesting if he did.
I can't see a jury reaching any conclusion other than it was racially-motivated murder tbh, unless they conclude that it was religiously motivated or something.
I can't see a jury reaching any conclusion other than it was racially-motivated murder tbh, unless they conclude that it was religiously motivated or something.
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Re: Charleston shooting survivor calls Dylann Roof 'evil' in tearful testimony
by Raggamuffin Thu Dec 08, 2016 6:56 pm
Apparently, the defence tried to have the case declared as a mistrial because of the lady's words. I realise that he has to be defended, but that's pushing it a bit.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/12/08/judge-rules-dylann-roofs-trial-can-continue-despite-survivor/
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/12/08/judge-rules-dylann-roofs-trial-can-continue-despite-survivor/
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Re: Charleston shooting survivor calls Dylann Roof 'evil' in tearful testimony
by Ben Reilly Thu Dec 08, 2016 7:00 pm
Raggamuffin wrote:I don't suppose he'll be giving evidence himself, but it would be interesting if he did.
I can't see a jury reaching any conclusion other than it was racially-motivated murder tbh, unless they conclude that it was religiously motivated or something.
I doubt that would be the case, though it wouldn't be totally out of the question. I haven't looked into Roof too much but I think if he said he did it for religion, that would have made headlines.
However, some racist movements in America have religious elements: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Identity
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Re: Charleston shooting survivor calls Dylann Roof 'evil' in tearful testimony
by Raggamuffin Thu Dec 08, 2016 7:03 pm
Ben Reilly wrote:Raggamuffin wrote:I don't suppose he'll be giving evidence himself, but it would be interesting if he did.
I can't see a jury reaching any conclusion other than it was racially-motivated murder tbh, unless they conclude that it was religiously motivated or something.
I doubt that would be the case, though it wouldn't be totally out of the question. I haven't looked into Roof too much but I think if he said he did it for religion, that would have made headlines.
However, some racist movements in America have religious elements: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Identity
I mean religiously motivated in that he killed them for being Christian - as you well know. Let's not start the usual nonsense.
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Re: Charleston shooting survivor calls Dylann Roof 'evil' in tearful testimony
by Ben Reilly Thu Dec 08, 2016 7:13 pm
Raggamuffin wrote:Ben Reilly wrote:Raggamuffin wrote:I don't suppose he'll be giving evidence himself, but it would be interesting if he did.
I can't see a jury reaching any conclusion other than it was racially-motivated murder tbh, unless they conclude that it was religiously motivated or something.
I doubt that would be the case, though it wouldn't be totally out of the question. I haven't looked into Roof too much but I think if he said he did it for religion, that would have made headlines.
However, some racist movements in America have religious elements: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Identity
I mean religiously motivated in that he killed them for being Christian - as you well know. Let's not start the usual nonsense.
He wrote on his website:
I have no choice. I am not in the position to, alone, go into the ghetto and fight. I chose Charleston because it is most historic city in my state, and at one time had the highest ratio of blacks to Whites in the country. We have no skinheads, no real KKK, no one doing anything but talking on the internet. Well someone has to have the bravery to take it to the real world, and I guess that has to be me.
Unfortunately at the time of writing I am in a great hurry and some of my best thoughts, actually many of them have been to be left out and lost forever. But I believe enough great White minds are out there already.
Nothing to indicate antipathy toward Christianity, but do you get the sense he wasn't the biggest fan of black people from that?
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Re: Charleston shooting survivor calls Dylann Roof 'evil' in tearful testimony
by Guest Thu Dec 08, 2016 8:14 pm
Ben Reilly wrote:Raggamuffin wrote:
I mean religiously motivated in that he killed them for being Christian - as you well know. Let's not start the usual nonsense.
He wrote on his website:I have no choice. I am not in the position to, alone, go into the ghetto and fight. I chose Charleston because it is most historic city in my state, and at one time had the highest ratio of blacks to Whites in the country. We have no skinheads, no real KKK, no one doing anything but talking on the internet. Well someone has to have the bravery to take it to the real world, and I guess that has to be me.
Unfortunately at the time of writing I am in a great hurry and some of my best thoughts, actually many of them have been to be left out and lost forever. But I believe enough great White minds are out there already.
Nothing to indicate antipathy toward Christianity, but do you get the sense he wasn't the biggest fan of black people from that?
Well yesssir sireee bob, and somewhere where they were all gathered together to make shooting them easy was what he chose. The only thing he was interested in was how many black skins he could blow up.
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Re: Charleston shooting survivor calls Dylann Roof 'evil' in tearful testimony
by Guest Sun Dec 11, 2016 2:26 pm
So should we start a 'POOL DATE'; for when this young cretin gets a sense of remorse and begins his ..."OMG, I've found JESUS and now I'm SAVED" ...before or right after his sentence is handed down?Dylann Roof's confession and journal detail racist beliefs
By JEFFREY COLLINS, Associated Press1 day ago
CHARLESTON, S.C. (AP) — Prosecutors are using the Charleston church shooter Dylann Roof's own words to portray him as a cruel angry racist at his death penalty trial. Roof's two-hour confession to killing nine people at a church Bible study, recorded the day after the shooting, was introduced as evidence Friday, along with a handwritten journal found in his car.
"How could our faces, skin color and body structure be so different, but our brains exactly the same?" Roof wrote in one of the less offensive passages.
In the video, Roof laughed repeatedly and made exaggerated gun motions as he described the massacre. He wanted to leave at least one person alive to tell what happened, he explained, complaining that his victims "complicated things" by hiding under tables.
He thought about shooting drug dealers, but they might shoot back, he said. Instead, Roof told the FBI, he picked the historic Emanuel African Methodist Episcopal Church in June 2015 because there likely wouldn't be white people there, and the people he chose to slaughter were more likely to be meek.
"I knew that would be a place to get a small amount of black people in one area," Roof said, later adding, "They're in church. They weren't criminals or anything."
Roof's lawyers have conceded that he carried out the attack, and are focused on persuading jurors to spare his life in the penalty phase of the trial. They said in opening statements they will call few or no witnesses. Testimony continues next week, and prosecutors said they may rest their case Wednesday.
Along with the overt racism, Roof's confession and notes show the then-21-year-old as naïve and immature. He wrote a note apologizing to his mother and saying "as childish as it sounds, I wish I was in your arms."
But Roof meticulously prepared for the shootings. He carried eight magazines that could each hold 13 rounds, but loaded only 11 each so that he could shoot 88 times. That's a revered number among white supremacists, standing for "Heil Hitler" because H is the eighth letter of the alphabet.
At one point, an agent asked if Roof had thought about killing more blacks.
"Oh, no. I was worn out," Roof said.
Roof said he left bullets in a magazine so that he could kill himself after the slayings, but changed his mind when he didn't immediately see any police.
He apparently hadn't heard the news during his 17 hours on the run. About 45 minutes into his interview with the FBI, an agent decided to tell him that nine people were dead. "There wasn't even that many people in there," Roof said incredulously. "Are you lying to me?" The video is blurry, making it hard to see Roof's facial expressions. After being told the details, an agent asked how he felt.
"Well, it makes me feel bad," said Roof, who earlier in the confession estimated he might have killed five.
Roof said he wanted to kill black people because he believed they rape white women daily. Agents asked why he chose Emanuel AME; he said it's because he saw it described online as the oldest black church in the South.
Survivor Felicia Sanders testified that said Roof sat through the Bible study beside pastor Clementa Pinckney, and opened fire as the rest of the group of 12 closed their eyes for a final prayer. "I was sitting there thinking about whether I should do it or not. That's why I sat there for 15 minutes. I could have walked out," Roof said.
Church surveillance videos indicate Roof was actually inside for about 45 minutes.
http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/dylann-roofs-confession-and-journal-detail-racist-beliefs/ar-AAlmjCu?OCID=ansmsnnews11
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Re: Charleston shooting survivor calls Dylann Roof 'evil' in tearful testimony
by Guest Sun Dec 11, 2016 2:28 pm
Maybe just before 
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Re: Charleston shooting survivor calls Dylann Roof 'evil' in tearful testimony
by Original Quill Sun Dec 11, 2016 4:07 pm
No, he's still reveling in his southern, white-supremacist glory. His cell mates--meth users and white-supremacist rednecks, all--are urging him on, begging for more smart-ass remarks.
No, he will find god in the lonely, forgotten corners of his damp cell, when no one gives a shit anymore, and they have all gone off looking for an alternative source of meth and homemade brew. Nothing affects a mind like being so alone you nothing to live for.
Then he will find god...and he will be urinating on him. Go die, and leave us alone dead man.
No, he will find god in the lonely, forgotten corners of his damp cell, when no one gives a shit anymore, and they have all gone off looking for an alternative source of meth and homemade brew. Nothing affects a mind like being so alone you nothing to live for.
Then he will find god...and he will be urinating on him. Go die, and leave us alone dead man.
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Re: Charleston shooting survivor calls Dylann Roof 'evil' in tearful testimony
by JulesV Sun Dec 11, 2016 4:21 pm
sassy wrote:Ben Reilly wrote:
He wrote on his website:
Nothing to indicate antipathy toward Christianity, but do you get the sense he wasn't the biggest fan of black people from that?
Well yesssir sireee bob, and somewhere where they were all gathered together to make shooting them easy was what he chose. The only thing he was interested in was how many black skins he could blow up.
True. When I first read this story I did wonder why they did not overpower him and stop the shooting. Now that I've taken a closer look at their ages, I can see why. They were mostly elderly people!
Poor Dylan Roof. He hoped he'd have a 'full house' to shoot up, then he realised it was just a few folk, mostly elderly - and he still shot them anyway lol.
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Re: Charleston shooting survivor calls Dylann Roof 'evil' in tearful testimony
by Guest Sun Dec 11, 2016 5:03 pm
That sick - dick shot one of those pastors - moved onto other church members and then returned to the 2 church pastors he'd just prayed with and unloaded a entire magazine clip into their bodies =Jules wrote:True. When I first read this story I did wonder why they did not overpower him and stop the shooting. Now that I've taken a closer look at their ages, I can see why. They were mostly elderly people!sassy wrote:
Well yesssir sireee bob, and somewhere where they were all gathered together to make shooting them easy was what he chose. The only thing he was interested in was how many black skins he could blow up.
Poor Dylan Roof. He hoped he'd have a 'full house' to shoot up, then he realised it was just a few folk, mostly elderly - and he still shot them anyway lol.
Sanders said Roof then gunned down the Rev Daniel Simmons, who had run towards Pinckney shouting: “Let me check on my pastor, I need to check on my pastor.”
“Then Rev Simmons got shot,” she said.
The survivor told the court she had hidden under a table in the church’s basement and played dead, clutching her 11-year-old granddaughter, who had also been present at the class, to her chest.
“She was saying: ‘Granny, I’m so scared.’ I said: ‘Just be quiet.’ I said: ‘Just play dead. Play dead.’ And so I muzzled her face to my body, I muzzled her face to my body so tight that I thought I suffocated her because I didn’t want her to make a sound.”
As Roof continued shooting, he spared one of the congregants, Polly Sheppard, according to assistant US prosecutor Jay Richardson, asking her whether she had been shot and stating he had spared her because “he wanted to have her alive to tell the story”.
At this point, Sanders said, her son Tywanza, who had already been shot, got up and attempted to reason with Roof, saying: “Why are you doing this? Why are you doing this?”
He said Roof first opened fire on Pinckney, who had offered the 22 year-old a seat next to him during the class, shooting the pastor “over and over again” and then opening fire on Simmons, who had rushed towards Roof after he shot Pinckney.
Richardson said Roof then proceeded to shoot each victim “over and over again”, adding that the white supremacist emptied an “entire magazine” on 87-year-old Jackson.
Richardson described the moment that 26-year-old Tywanza Sanders, who had been shot, attempted to reason with Roof, telling him: “We mean you no harm.”
Roof, Richardson said, then replied: “Y’all are taking over the world,” before he repeatedly shot Sanders.
That poor sainted dear mother and grandmother, watching her 26 yr old son trying to reason with a mythical/racist/insane killer and trying to protect her grandchild at the same time! Such horrible memories to live with until her last days!
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Re: Charleston shooting survivor calls Dylann Roof 'evil' in tearful testimony
by Guest Thu Dec 15, 2016 11:49 pm
Well, Dylan's still saying that he wants to represent himself at the sentencing hearing in Jan.Jury Finds Dylann Roof Guilty In S.C. Church Shooting
December 15, 2016 3:33 PM ET
A jury in Charleston, S.C., has found Dylann Roof guilty on all 33 counts of federal hate crimes he faced for murdering nine people and attempting to kill three others in the basement of a historically black church.
As the sentence was read, Roof stood emotionless, reported Alexandra Olgin of South Carolina Public Radio, who was in the courtroom. The charges included murder, attempted murder, damage to religious property, obstruction of religious belief and weapons charges. Federal prosecutors are seeking a death sentence. Roof has asked to represent himself in the penalty phase of the trial, which is scheduled to begin Jan. 3.
http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2016/12/15/505723552/jury-finds-dylann-roof-guilty-in-s-c-church-shooting
I can just imagine that he'll use that allotted time for his racist diatribe
His last grand hurrah!Last edited by 4EVER2 on Sat Dec 17, 2016 1:10 am; edited 2 times in total
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Re: Charleston shooting survivor calls Dylann Roof 'evil' in tearful testimony
by Irn Bru Sat Dec 17, 2016 1:00 am
Guilty as sin itself. I hope the little runt never see's the light of day again by spending the rest of his life in a darkened cell.
I believe his lawyers have said the he prefers a firing squad tio a lethat injection. I don't support the death penalty but if it is that way then a lethal injection it is.
I believe his lawyers have said the he prefers a firing squad tio a lethat injection. I don't support the death penalty but if it is that way then a lethal injection it is.
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Re: Charleston shooting survivor calls Dylann Roof 'evil' in tearful testimony
by Irn Bru Sat Dec 17, 2016 1:01 am
Irn Bru wrote:Guilty as sin itself. I hope the little runt never see's the light of day again by spending the rest of his life in a darkened cell.
I believe his lawyers have said that he prefers a firing squad tio a lethat injection. I don't support the death penalty but if it is that way then a lethal injection it is.
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Re: Charleston shooting survivor calls Dylann Roof 'evil' in tearful testimony
by Raggamuffin Wed Jan 11, 2017 7:20 pm
Dylann Roof has been sentenced to death. I thought he might be, but I can't condone this at all as I don't approve of the death penalty.
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Re: Charleston shooting survivor calls Dylann Roof 'evil' in tearful testimony
by Ben Reilly Wed Jan 11, 2017 8:14 pm
Raggamuffin wrote:Dylann Roof has been sentenced to death. I thought he might be, but I can't condone this at all as I don't approve of the death penalty.
I don't support the death penalty either, but I have very little emotion about this case, other than to say it's a sad ending to a sad story.
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Re: Charleston shooting survivor calls Dylann Roof 'evil' in tearful testimony
by Victorismyhero Wed Jan 11, 2017 8:24 pm
In this case why keep him alive
would you keep rotten food in your fridge?
a busted and irepairable car in your garage?
what use/good is he ever going to be to society
a waste of space, skin and oxygen......
off him burn him and sling his ashes into a tornado....
would you keep rotten food in your fridge?
a busted and irepairable car in your garage?
what use/good is he ever going to be to society
a waste of space, skin and oxygen......
off him burn him and sling his ashes into a tornado....
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