Christian bakery guilty of discrimination over gay marriage cake refusal

by Guest Tue May 19, 2015 3:12 pm

First topic message reminder :

A Christian-owned bakery that refused to make a cake carrying a pro-gay marriage slogan has been found guilty of discrimination after a landmark legal action.
The Northern Ireland Equality Commission brought the case against Ashers Baking Company on behalf of Gareth Lee, the gay rights activist whose order was declined.
Giving her ruling at Belfast County Court on Tuesday, district judge Isobel Brownlie said: "The defendants have unlawfully discriminated against the plaintiff on grounds of sexual discrimination. "This is direct discrimination for which there can be no justification."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/11614694/Christian-bakery-guilty-of-discrimination-over-gay-marriage-cake-refusal.html

The important part:

Giving evidence, Mr Lee claimed he was left feeling like a lesser person when his order, which was paid in full, was turned down two days after being initially accepted.

by Guest Tue May 19, 2015 4:28 pm

Lucifer Angel of Light wrote:
heavenlyfatheragain wrote:
she is not being rude and she will answer what she likes so shut your cake hole, a statement which fits thise case perfectly...

Sorry to disappoint again, but no, I am not going to shut up.
This is a debate I suggest you get used to that

i know its a debate, it's like all your debates, circular..... forever circular... Smile

by Guest Tue May 19, 2015 4:29 pm

Oh well this was interesting.

by Guest Tue May 19, 2015 4:29 pm

I wonder if i went to a Muslim bakery and ordered a cake with 'John 3.16 ' ?

If they refused would i be offended ? No because it is their belief that Jesus isn't the son of God and i wouldn't purposley go out of my way to offend their belief simple.

Gay people are deliberately approaching Christians knowing full well that they follow the bible and that includes homosexuality is an abmonination to the Lord.

Personally i have no problem with gay people , but in cases where gays deliberatley approach Christian businesses i think they are being unfair .

by Guest Tue May 19, 2015 4:29 pm

should anyone have the right to demand another person does something they disagree with, it's that simple...

by Raggamuffin Tue May 19, 2015 4:30 pm

This sort of thing comes up from time to time, and the perpetrators generally get fined. I don't think they should be fined huge amounts which would put them out of business. If they just accept that they will get fined if they discriminate, they could put money aside for that eventuality. That way, everyone's happy aren't they?

by Guest Tue May 19, 2015 4:30 pm

Vicar of Dibley wrote:I wonder if i went to a Muslim bakery and ordered a cake with 'John 3.16 ' ?

If they refused would i be offended ? No because it is their belief that Jesus isn't the son of God and i wouldn't purposley go out of my way to offend their belief simple.

Gay people are deliberately approaching Christians knowing full well that they follow the bible and that includes homosexuality is an abmonination to the Lord.

Personally i have no problem with gay people , but in cases where gays deliberatley approach Christian businesses i think they are being unfair .

Muslims are another protected minority...

i wonder how far they would get asking for same sex marriage conducted in a mosque...

by Raggamuffin Tue May 19, 2015 4:32 pm

Vicar of Dibley wrote:I wonder if i went to a Muslim bakery and ordered a cake with 'John 3.16 ' ?

If they refused would i be offended ? No because it is their belief that Jesus isn't the son of God and i wouldn't purposley go out of my way to offend their belief simple.

Gay people are deliberately approaching Christians knowing full well that they follow the bible and that includes homosexuality is an abmonination to the Lord.

Personally i have no problem with gay people , but in cases where gays deliberatley approach Christian businesses i think they are being unfair .

You would be entitled to sue them for discrimination though.

Did this gay chap know the bakery was Christian? I don't think bakeries usually advertise that fact.

by Guest Tue May 19, 2015 4:33 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:
Vicar of Dibley wrote:I wonder if i went to a Muslim bakery and ordered a cake with 'John 3.16 ' ?

If they refused would i be offended ? No because it is their belief that Jesus isn't the son of God and i wouldn't purposley go out of my way to offend their belief simple.

Gay people are deliberately approaching Christians knowing full well that they follow the bible and that includes homosexuality is an abmonination to the Lord.

Personally i have no problem with gay people , but in cases where gays deliberatley approach Christian businesses i think they are being unfair .

You would be entitled to sue them for discrimination though.

Did this gay chap know the bakery was Christian? I don't think bakeries usually advertise that fact.

Exactly

by Original Quill Tue May 19, 2015 4:37 pm

Lucifer wrote:The fact is though they did accept and took payment to then two days later decline.

At best that makes it a breach of contract claim. Do you see in that fact anything that supports or furthers the discrimination claim?

by Raggamuffin Tue May 19, 2015 4:38 pm

So did they not know about the message on the cake when they accepted the order?

by Guest Tue May 19, 2015 4:38 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:
Vicar of Dibley wrote:I wonder if i went to a Muslim bakery and ordered a cake with 'John 3.16 ' ?

If they refused would i be offended ? No because it is their belief that Jesus isn't the son of God and i wouldn't purposley go out of my way to offend their belief simple.

Gay people are deliberately approaching Christians knowing full well that they follow the bible and that includes homosexuality is an abmonination to the Lord.

Personally i have no problem with gay people , but in cases where gays deliberatley approach Christian businesses i think they are being unfair .

You would be entitled to sue them for discrimination though.

Did this gay chap know the bakery was Christian? I don't think bakeries usually advertise that fact.

yeah right and what good would it do, we will find out anyway ...lol

by Guest Tue May 19, 2015 4:38 pm

Lucifer Angel of Light wrote:
Vicar of Dibley wrote:

shut up again you silly moo, this isn't class you are not a teacher, this is debate we put our thoughts and beliefs across it isn't a 20 questions game .

I'm not being rude im saying shut up trying to force questions on other posters .

iSorry to disappoint you, but no I will not shut up.
Nothing is being forced on you, either you answer them or you do not.
If you do not you just lose further credability to your points
So not concerned either way really.

wrong if i don't answer your questions it just gets you all in a pickle because you can't bully another poster yet again .

by Guest Tue May 19, 2015 4:39 pm

Vicar of Dibley wrote:
Lucifer Angel of Light wrote:

iSorry to disappoint you, but no I will not shut up.
Nothing is being forced on you, either you answer them or you do not.
If you do not you just lose further credability to your points
So not concerned either way really.

wrong if i don't answer your questions it just gets you all in a pickle because you can't bully another poster yet again .

ignore the tard it's the only way he can get people to talk to him... Smile

by Guest Tue May 19, 2015 4:40 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:This sort of thing comes up from time to time, and the perpetrators generally get fined. I don't think they should be fined huge amounts which would put them out of business. If they just accept that they will get fined if they discriminate, they could put money aside for that eventuality. That way, everyone's happy aren't they?

Why should they get fined though , it seems it is about making some easy cash .

by Guest Tue May 19, 2015 4:40 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Lucifer wrote:The fact is though they did accept and took payment to then two days later decline.

At best that makes it a breach of contract claim. Do you see in that fact anything that supports or furthers the discrimination claim?

I would say it would be a factor Quill.
I am no expert on the law.
Can a breach of contract also cross over into discrmination, when that is the cause of the breach?

by Raggamuffin Tue May 19, 2015 4:41 pm

heavenlyfatheragain wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:

You would be entitled to sue them for discrimination though.

Did this gay chap know the bakery was Christian? I don't think bakeries usually advertise that fact.

yeah right and what good would it do, we will find out anyway ...lol

If you sued a Muslim for discriminating against you on religious grounds? They would be breaking the law.

by Guest Tue May 19, 2015 4:41 pm

Vicar of Dibley wrote:
Lucifer Angel of Light wrote:

iSorry to disappoint you, but no I will not shut up.
Nothing is being forced on you, either you answer them or you do not.
If you do not you just lose further credability to your points
So not concerned either way really.

wrong if i don't answer your questions it just gets you all in a pickle because you can't bully another poster yet again .

Again its up to you whether to answer, but you seem to be the only one getting upset over nothing here demanding people shut up.
I never demanded that you answer, so it maybe prudent you understand the difference between asking a question and demanding as you were attempting to do.

by Guest Tue May 19, 2015 4:42 pm

so should someone have the right to refuse to do something of they disagree with it... Smile

or do you all concede the debate because you cannot answer it...

by Raggamuffin Tue May 19, 2015 4:42 pm

Vicar of Dibley wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:This sort of thing comes up from time to time, and the perpetrators generally get fined. I don't think they should be fined huge amounts which would put them out of business. If they just accept that they will get fined if they discriminate, they could put money aside for that eventuality. That way, everyone's happy aren't they?

Why should they get fined though , it seems it is about making some easy cash .

What's the alternative? Forcing them to make the cake? Putting them in prison?

It's only money after all. I know that it can be a matter of principle, but the law is quite clear - you cannot refuse goods and services on the grounds of someone's sexual orientation.

by Guest Tue May 19, 2015 4:44 pm

heavenlyfatheragain wrote:so should someone have the right to refuse to do something of they disagree with it...

or do you all concede the debate because you cannot answer it...

You can refuse to answer, it just is going to make your counter less credible.
Do you think if you fail to answer a point asked, in say this tribunal it would help you or go against you?

by Original Quill Tue May 19, 2015 4:45 pm

Lucifer Angel of Light wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

At best that makes it a breach of contract claim. Do you see in that fact anything that supports or furthers the discrimination claim?

I would say it would be a factor Quill.
I am no expert on the law.
Can a breach of contract also cross over into discrmination, when that is the cause of the breach?

Oh yeah. If the fact points that way it can. In this case, someone obviously took the order then had second thoughts when s/he considered it more closely. But 'first thoughts' or 'second thoughts', it's discrimination any way you think about it.

But it could enhance the claim if, between the initial order and the decision rejecting it, something came to light to cause the decision. But here, it just looks like 'second thoughts'.

by Raggamuffin Tue May 19, 2015 4:47 pm

heavenlyfatheragain wrote:so should someone have the right to refuse to do something of they disagree with it...

or do you all concede the debate because you cannot answer it...

Like I said, I would not want to put "Support hunting with dogs" on a cake, and I would probably refuse. I don't think that would be against the law though. I would be breaking the law if I refused to put "support gay marriage" on a cake. That's why it's interesting that these bakers were found guilty partly on the grounds of Gareth Lee's political beliefs - that needs to be clarified because I don't think that supporting gay marriage or not is a political thing really.

by Guest Tue May 19, 2015 4:47 pm

Lucifer Angel of Light wrote:
heavenlyfatheragain wrote:so should someone have the right to refuse to do something of they disagree with it...

or do you all concede the debate because you cannot answer it...

You can refuse to answer, it just is going to make your counter less credible.
Do you think if you fail to answer a point asked, in say this tribunal it would help you or go against you?

ha ha ha another queer who wants it all his own way.... Smile

by Guest Tue May 19, 2015 4:48 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Lucifer Angel of Light wrote:

I would say it would be a factor Quill.
I am no expert on the law.
Can a breach of contract also cross over into discrmination, when that is the cause of the breach?

Oh yeah. If the fact points that way it can. In this case, someone obviously took the order then had second thoughts when s/he considered it more closely. But 'first thoughts' or 'second thoughts', it's discrimination any way you think about it.

But it could enhance the claim if, between the initial order and the decision rejecting it, something came to light to cause the decision. But here, it just looks like 'second thoughts'.

Interesting and thanks for you expertise on the matter.

by Guest Tue May 19, 2015 4:48 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:
heavenlyfatheragain wrote:
yeah right and what good would it do, we will find out anyway ...lol

If you sued a Muslim for discriminating against you on religious grounds? They would be breaking the law.

and you actually think it would stand up in law... Smile

by Raggamuffin Tue May 19, 2015 4:54 pm

heavenlyfatheragain wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:

If you sued a Muslim for discriminating against you on religious grounds? They would be breaking the law.
and you actually think it would stand up in law...

I don't see why not.

by Raggamuffin Tue May 19, 2015 4:55 pm

Lucifer Angel of Light wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

Oh yeah. If the fact points that way it can. In this case, someone obviously took the order then had second thoughts when s/he considered it more closely. But 'first thoughts' or 'second thoughts', it's discrimination any way you think about it.

But it could enhance the claim if, between the initial order and the decision rejecting it, something came to light to cause the decision. But here, it just looks like 'second thoughts'.

Interesting and thanks for you expertise on the matter.

Is he familiar with the law here though?

by Guest Tue May 19, 2015 4:57 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:
Lucifer Angel of Light wrote:

Interesting and thanks for you expertise on the matter.

Is he familiar with the law here though?

I think his views were more on experince of cases themselves to any need of understanding the law here Rags. Not sure on the legality of his points, again I am no expert, but they certaily make sense.

by Guest Tue May 19, 2015 4:58 pm

Best to ask Quill to be honest Rags.

by Raggamuffin Tue May 19, 2015 4:59 pm

Lucifer Angel of Light wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:

Is he familiar with the law here though?

I think his views were more on experince of cases themselves to any need of understanding the law here Rags. Not sure on the legality of his points, again I am no expert, but they certaily make sense.

Not all discrimination is unlawful, but discrimination on the grounds of sexual orientation is.

by Guest Tue May 19, 2015 5:02 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:
Vicar of Dibley wrote:

Why should they get fined though , it seems it is about making some easy cash .

What's the alternative? Forcing them to make the cake? Putting them in prison?

It's only money after all. I know that it can be a matter of principle, but the law is quite clear - you cannot refuse goods and services on the grounds of someone's sexual orientation.

The alternative is to accept that people can choose their beliefs and not be forced into doing something that goes against them . If this business is a small business a fine could put them out of business all for the sake of a cake .

Personally i would make the cake because money in the till for me is the main purpose of running a business but i just don't like it whe gays target Christians .

by Original Quill Tue May 19, 2015 5:03 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:
heavenlyfatheragain wrote:so should someone have the right to refuse to do something of they disagree with it...

or do you all concede the debate because you cannot answer it...

Like I said, I would not want to put "Support hunting with dogs" on a cake, and I would probably refuse. I don't think that would be against the law though. I would be breaking the law if I refused to put "support gay marriage" on a cake. That's why it's interesting that these bakers were found guilty partly on the grounds of Gareth Lee's political beliefs - that needs to be clarified because I don't think that supporting gay marriage or not is a political thing really.

Obviously there is a statute prohibiting discrimination of some kind, because the case was brought by the Northern Ireland Equality Commission. You don't have a commission without a law.

What does the law say? I would be curious to know what constitutes a discriminatory act...any adverse action? Or, something more specific? Or is it just, anytime you provide a service or sales, you cannot do the same for a gay?

by Raggamuffin Tue May 19, 2015 5:03 pm

It is a bit of a minefield though. As I mentioned before, if I had a bakery and a Muslim asked me to put "support halal meat" on a cake, I wouldn't want to do it. Would I then be sued on the grounds of religious discrimination? My view would be that I object to halal itself, not Muslims.

by Guest Tue May 19, 2015 5:05 pm

I have a friend who runs a business making childrens duvet covers with scripture and pictures of the bible stories it is a Christian business .

Would you think it fair for someone who is a satanist to approach this man and ask him to make a duvet cover for his daughter with the devil on it and skulls ?

by Original Quill Tue May 19, 2015 5:06 pm

Reading back over, yes I think the law would apply to a Muslim bakery which refused a request.

The only possibility otherwise would be if the law excluded Muslims.

by Guest Tue May 19, 2015 5:06 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:
heavenlyfatheragain wrote:so should someone have the right to refuse to do something of they disagree with it...

or do you all concede the debate because you cannot answer it...

Like I said, I would not want to put "Support hunting with dogs" on a cake, and I would probably refuse. I don't think that would be against the law though. I would be breaking the law if I refused to put "support gay marriage" on a cake. That's why it's interesting that these bakers were found guilty partly on the grounds of Gareth Lee's political beliefs - that needs to be clarified because I don't think that supporting gay marriage or not is a political thing really.

funny thing is a cakes a cake and unless it had the bakers name on it as advertising (it didn`t)the baker was not supporting gay anything ,that`s like saying gun manufactures are supporting murder because some people who buy guns kill people

by Guest Tue May 19, 2015 5:08 pm

Original Quill wrote:Reading back over, yes I think the law would apply to a Muslim bakery which refused a request.

The only possibility otherwise would be if the law excluded Muslims.

why would it exclude Muslims just curious

by Raggamuffin Tue May 19, 2015 5:11 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:

Like I said, I would not want to put "Support hunting with dogs" on a cake, and I would probably refuse. I don't think that would be against the law though. I would be breaking the law if I refused to put "support gay marriage" on a cake. That's why it's interesting that these bakers were found guilty partly on the grounds of Gareth Lee's political beliefs - that needs to be clarified because I don't think that supporting gay marriage or not is a political thing really.

Obviously there is a statute prohibiting discrimination of some kind, because the case was brought by the Northern Ireland Equality Commission. You don't have a commission without a law.

What does the law say? I would be curious to know what constitutes a discriminatory act...any adverse action? Or, something more specific? Or is it just, anytime you provide a service or sales, you cannot do the same for a gay?

I won't go into detail about the various Acts, but the equality laws make it unlawful to discriminate on the grounds of sexual orientation when providing goods and services.

The issue has arisen a few times in the UK - largely concerning B&Bs turning away gay couples.

by Raggamuffin Tue May 19, 2015 5:11 pm

Original Quill wrote:Reading back over, yes I think the law would apply to a Muslim bakery which refused a request.

The only possibility otherwise would be if the law excluded Muslims.

It does not exclude Muslims.

by Original Quill Tue May 19, 2015 5:13 pm

People engineer these cases. Obviously this case was set up by a gay rights activist (according to the article). We have a movement in the US where they are creating a confrontation (called an 'antinomy') in the laws of discrimination, on the one hand, and religion, on the other. We have a constitution, containing both a First Amendment guaranteeing religious freedom, and equal protection of the laws (anti-discrimination). One day the Supreme Court will have to decide this issue.

by Raggamuffin Tue May 19, 2015 5:13 pm

Vicar of Dibley wrote:I have a friend who runs a business making childrens duvet covers with scripture and pictures of the bible stories it is a Christian business .

Would you think it fair for someone who is a satanist to approach this man and ask him to make a duvet cover for his daughter with the devil on it and skulls ?

Interesting. I wonder if anyone's ever put it to the test. Laughing

I don't think the Satanist would win. I think that there's an unspoken rule that gay rights trump religious rights in law, but nobody really ever admits that.

by Raggamuffin Tue May 19, 2015 5:14 pm

Original Quill wrote:People engineer these cases. Obviously this case was set up by a gay rights activist (according to the article). We have a movement in the US where they are creating a confrontation (called an 'antinomy') in the laws of discrimination, on the one hand, and religion, on the other. We have a constitution, containing both a First Amendment guaranteeing religious freedom, and equal protection of the laws (anti-discrimination). One day the Supreme Court will have to decide this issue.

I do think it's possible that some of these situation are set up to catch people out. It's not clear if Gareth Lee knew about the religious beliefs of the bakery owners though.

by Raggamuffin Tue May 19, 2015 5:20 pm

What about this theoretical scenario?

A gay couple run a bakery, and a Christian comes in and wants a cake made, with a quote from St Paul on the top re homosexuality.

If the gay couple refused to do it, would they be breaking the law on the grounds of religious discrimination?

by Guest Tue May 19, 2015 5:21 pm

Original Quill wrote:People engineer these cases. Obviously this case was set up by a gay rights activist (according to the article). We have a movement in the US where they are creating a confrontation (called an 'antinomy') in the laws of discrimination, on the one hand, and religion, on the other. We have a constitution, containing both a First Amendment guaranteeing religious freedom, and equal protection of the laws (anti-discrimination). One day the Supreme Court will have to decide this issue.

yes they do the same as the militant queers who targetted the Christian B&B, shows their sickness and when you consider gay only hotels are advertised it also showns their hypocrisy...

by Guest Tue May 19, 2015 5:29 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:
heavenlyfatheragain wrote:
and you actually think it would stand up in law...

I don't see why not.

a lot of Muslims run kebab shops and restaurants but its against there religious beliefs to eat a kebab doesn`t stop them selling kebab meat or other product forbidden in there faith
And i have never heard of a court case where a Muslim refused service to a non Muslim

by Original Quill Tue May 19, 2015 5:30 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:
Original Quill wrote:People engineer these cases. Obviously this case was set up by a gay rights activist (according to the article). We have a movement in the US where they are creating a confrontation (called an 'antinomy') in the laws of discrimination, on the one hand, and religion, on the other. We have a constitution, containing both a First Amendment guaranteeing religious freedom, and equal protection of the laws (anti-discrimination). One day the Supreme Court will have to decide this issue.

I do think it's possible that some of these situation are set up to catch people out. It's not clear if Gareth Lee knew about the religious beliefs of the bakery owners though.

I would give you odds of 1,000/1 he did. This goes on all the time. It's a routine practice to try out political issues in lawsuits.

by Raggamuffin Tue May 19, 2015 5:31 pm

korban dallas wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:

I don't see why not.
a lot of Muslims run kebab shops and restaurants but its against there religious beliefs to eat a kebab doesn`t stop them selling kebab meat or other product forbidden in there faith
And i have never heard of a court case where a Muslim refused service to a non Muslim

Neither have I, but if they did, they would be breaking the law.

by Original Quill Tue May 19, 2015 5:32 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:What about this theoretical scenario?

A gay couple run a bakery, and a Christian comes in and wants a cake made, with a quote from St Paul on the top re homosexuality.

If the gay couple refused to do it, would they be breaking the law on the grounds of religious discrimination?

It depends if there is a law protecting religious rights similar to the anti-discrimination law here. In the US, of course, we have a Constitutional Amendment which serves.

by Original Quill Tue May 19, 2015 5:36 pm

heavenlyfatheragain wrote:
Original Quill wrote:People engineer these cases. Obviously this case was set up by a gay rights activist (according to the article). We have a movement in the US where they are creating a confrontation (called an 'antinomy') in the laws of discrimination, on the one hand, and religion, on the other. We have a constitution, containing both a First Amendment guaranteeing religious freedom, and equal protection of the laws (anti-discrimination). One day the Supreme Court will have to decide this issue.
yes they do the same as the militant queers who targetted the Christian B&B, shows their sickness and when you consider gay only hotels are advertised it also showns their hypocrisy...

I didn't mean it as a moral clarion call. It's a part of the political process to engineer cases to air political causes. It is legitimate.

In the US, the RW is doing it all the time to attack the law permitting abortion. See, Roe v. Wade.

by Guest Tue May 19, 2015 5:37 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:
korban dallas wrote:
a lot of Muslims run kebab shops and restaurants but its against there religious beliefs to eat a kebab doesn`t stop them selling kebab meat or other product forbidden in there faith
And i have never heard of a court case where a Muslim refused service to a non Muslim

Neither have I, but if they did, they would be breaking the law.

I agree but as it has to my knowledge never happened one can only assume Muslims are more tolerant of confectionery based products

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