Question for Creationists

by stardesk Sun Feb 15, 2015 1:48 pm

First topic message reminder :

QUESTION FOR CREATIONISTS

For the sake of this argument we must assume God was responsible for the creation of all life on Earth. To put the question in the right perspective, a brief quote from Genesis:

Genesis 24: ‘And God went on to say “Let the earth put forth living souls according to their kinds, domestic animal and moving animal and wild beast of the earth according to their kind.” And it came to be.’

Now the scene is set for this serious question to our Creationist members:
If God was/is so powerful, able to create suns and planets, and all the life on Earth, why create dinosaurs then allow them to be exterminated from the planet about 65 million years ago? This event was believed to have been caused by a meteor 6 miles wide, (and a couple of others) slamming into Earth. Coupled with huge volcanic eruptions such events caused a change in the atmosphere, consequently responsible for a climate change making food resources in short supply and the ultimate death of the dinosaurs, coupled with poisonous gasses from the volcanic eruptions. This was exacerbated due to thick dust darkening the skies for a year or more causing the death and destruction of a lot of plant life as well as the dinosaurs.

As asked above, why did God allow this to happen and have to start all over again with different, new species of life? Surely with his power he could have stopped the meteors, or was it beyond his abilities, thereby making him not so powerful as portrayed and believed?

Over to you folks.

by Guest Wed Feb 18, 2015 8:53 pm

Fuzzy Zack wrote:
Brasidas wrote:So the big evidence of verses which as I said speak nothing of your claims to allow unimaginable suffering.
So you did lie:

“And certainly, We shall test you with something of fear, hunger, loss of wealth, lives and fruits, but give glad tidings to As- Saabiroon (the patient).

Who, when afflicted with calamity, say: ‘Truly, to Allaah we belong and truly, to Him we shall return.’

They are those on whom are the Salawaat (i.e. who are blessed and will be forgiven) from their Lord, and (they are those who) receive His Mercy, and it is they who are the guided ones”

[al-Baqarah 2-157]

“And Allaah loves As-Saabiroon (the patient)”

[Aal ‘Imraan 3]

“Only those who are patient shall receive their reward in full, without reckoning”

[al-Zumar 39]

Lol! Islam is all about preservering through struggle and suffering (JIHAD!?).

As those verses clearly state.

You also mentioned a precise case about the death of children. Which that link talks about specifically. See page title.

Your only recourse is now call me a liar - as you have no other option. Lol!

More interpretations, where I can even give further ones myself to those verse, showing how easily Muslims invent aspects of their own faith.
Really, where does it state that a woman for example must be patient through being gang raped?
Where does it state anywhere why this deity is inactive, your most important point you have eluded to throughout this debate.
So I am really enjoying this debate and watching you really struggle.
Some more ambiguous verses please if you dare

by Fuzzy Zack Wed Feb 18, 2015 8:57 pm

Brasidas wrote:
Fuzzy Zack wrote:

Lol! Islam is all about preservering through struggle and suffering (JIHAD!?).

As those verses clearly state.

You also mentioned a precise case about the death of children. Which that link talks about specifically. See page title.

Your only recourse is now call me a liar - as you have no other option. Lol!

More interpretations, where I can even give further ones myself to those verse, showing how easily Muslims invent aspects of their own faith.
Really, where does it state that a woman for example must be patient through being gang raped?
Where does it state anywhere why this deity is inactive, your most important point you have eluded to throughout this debate.
So I am really enjoying this debate and watching you really struggle.
Some more ambiguous verses please if you dare

No, it shows you have poor understanding of the Quran. Jihad and preserverence are the corner stone of the Quran. Just ask any other Muslim or even a non-Muslim Islamic student.

Lol! Your second last sentence proves you are being emotional and trying to wind me up. You've clearly learned nothing.

by Guest Wed Feb 18, 2015 9:02 pm

Fuzzy Zack wrote:
Brasidas wrote:

More interpretations, where I can even give further ones myself to those verse, showing how easily Muslims invent aspects of their own faith.
Really, where does it state that a woman for example must be patient through being gang raped?
Where does it state anywhere why this deity is inactive, your most important point you have eluded to throughout this debate.
So I am really enjoying this debate and watching you really struggle.
Some more ambiguous verses please if you dare

No, it shows you have poor understanding of the Quran. Jihad and preserverence are the corner stone of the Quran. Just ask any other Muslim or even a non-Muslim Islamic student.

Lol! Your second last sentence proves you are being emotional and trying to wind me up. You've clearly learned nothing.

Really, you are saying there is only one correct interpretation of the Quran and that you hold this, even though many differ? So all interpretations are the same held by all Muslims then?
Oh I know Jihad is the courner stone of the Quran we are seeing that in abundance of late and showing unimaginable suffering to people because of it. Are you thus claiming their interpretation of the Quran on jihad is correct then as you say by asking any other Muslim?
Seems you have walked into a very simple trap, where now you claim Isis hold the same interpretations of the Quran as you do.
I can man many views of these verses because they are very ambiguous and there is no correct one way and if you think there is, then you are deluding yourself to this as all Muslims would believe and follow the same understanding.
We know they most certainly do not

by Fuzzy Zack Wed Feb 18, 2015 9:27 pm

Brasidas wrote:
Fuzzy Zack wrote:

No, it shows you have poor understanding of the Quran. Jihad and preserverence are the corner stone of the Quran. Just ask any other Muslim or even a non-Muslim Islamic student.

Lol! Your second last sentence proves you are being emotional and trying to wind me up. You've clearly learned nothing.

Really, you are saying there is only one correct interpretation of the Quran and that you hold this, even though many differ? So all interpretations are the same held by all Muslims then?
Oh I know Jihad is the courner stone of the Quran we are seeing that in abundance of late and showing unimaginable suffering to people because of it. Are you thus claiming their interpretation of the Quran on jihad is correct then as you say by asking any other Muslim?
Seems you have walked into a very simple trap, where now you claim Isis hold the same interpretations of the Quran as you do.
I can man many views of these verses because they are very ambiguous and there is no correct one way and if you think there is, then you are deluding yourself to this as all Muslims would believe and follow the same understanding.
We know they most certainly do not

I said nothing relating to your first paragraph. That's just your assumptions in the form of questions. Very Bill o'Reilly. lol!

Point 2: you are using the incorrect western definition of Jihad. Jihad means to struggle. Again proving your lack of understanding.

You are now trying to equate me with ISIS. WOW! How desperate are you?

by Guest Wed Feb 18, 2015 9:30 pm

Fuzzy Zack wrote:
Brasidas wrote:

Really, you are saying there is only one correct interpretation of the Quran and that you hold this, even though many differ? So all interpretations are the same held by all Muslims then?
Oh I know Jihad is the courner stone of the Quran we are seeing that in abundance of late and showing unimaginable suffering to people because of it. Are you thus claiming their interpretation of the Quran on jihad is correct then as you say by asking any other Muslim?
Seems you have walked into a very simple trap, where now you claim Isis hold the same interpretations of the Quran as you do.
I can man many views of these verses because they are very ambiguous and there is no correct one way and if you think there is, then you are deluding yourself to this as all Muslims would believe and follow the same understanding.
We know they most certainly do not

I said nothing relating to your first paragraph. That's just your assumptions in the form of questions. Very Bill o'Reilly. lol!

Point 2: you are using the incorrect western definition of Jihad. Jihad means to struggle. Again proving your lack of understanding.

You are now trying to equate me with ISIS. WOW! How desperate are you?

3 emotions again

Oh you claim I am using the wrong definition of Quran and that you hold the correct one even though no Muslim can even claim to hold the correct view being again as no religious person can prove they are following the correct and true aspect of their faith. They only have faith to claim that they are.
Doh
You claimed I should ask any Muslims and ISIS also claim to be Muslims and there views on Jihad are clearly at odds with your views are they not?
So how can anyone tell their views or your views are right on Jihad, as both of you will claim the other is wrong and again we are left with ambiguous verses to go off. Which neither side can hope to claim is the right way

by stardesk Wed Feb 18, 2015 9:37 pm

Well well, I'm suprised and pleased this topic has exceeded what I expected. I've skipped pages 2 &3, but would like to answe some comments on p.1. Free will! And who gave us free will in the first place? Dear old pater God, (if he exists, that is.) Earthquakes and volcanoes? Caused by continental movements named as tectonic plate movements. According to my research, over the last 2,000 years 400.000.000 (four hundred million) people have died from natural disasters and plagues. Fracking is a recent event, therefore has nothing at all to do with past ages, death and destruction.

I've said before in another topic some time ago, that I posed the question of earthquakes &/etc to a Witness, who said it was all Satan's fault. Laugh! I nearly peed myself.

And finally, to Zack: Get a life Man, stop believing in a fairy tale and ancient mythology. Have faith in yourself, open your mind to the real world, take control of your life and open yourself up to your potential.

Over to you, folks.

by Fuzzy Zack Wed Feb 18, 2015 9:39 pm

Brasidas wrote:
Fuzzy Zack wrote:

I said nothing relating to your first paragraph. That's just your assumptions in the form of questions. Very Bill o'Reilly. lol!

Point 2: you are using the incorrect western definition of Jihad. Jihad means to struggle. Again proving your lack of understanding.

You are now trying to equate me with ISIS. WOW! How desperate are you?

3 emotions again

Oh you claim I am using the wrong definition of Quran and that you hold the correct one even though no Muslim can even claim to hold the correct view being again as no religious person can prove they are following the correct and true aspect of their faith. They only have faith to claim that they are.
Doh
You claimed I should ask any Muslims and ISIS also claim to be Muslims and there views on Jihad are clearly at odds with your views are they not?
So how can anyone tell their views or your views are right on Jihad, as both of you will claim the other is wrong and again we are left with ambiguous verses to go off. Which neither side can hope to claim is the right way

I guess laughter is an emotion. What do you have against emotions Phil?

Where Did I say you were using the wrong definition of the Quran? Lol!

Show me where ISIS's views are in the Quran and we can debate subjectively. Go>

by eddie Wed Feb 18, 2015 9:41 pm

Brasidas wrote:
eddie wrote:
Brasidas wrote:Sorry that just does not cut it Eddie where again you are excusing something that if exists and can do something is now able to allow innocent people to die.
That is nothing short of wrong.
If you had the chance to save someones life, lets say your own daughter, which everyone believes we are all Gods children, are you saying you would not save your own daughter if you could?

Answer this first before we continue.

Second why do you wish to believe also insomething that also does bad?
Do you teach your own child to do bad?
If no, why would you want to beleieve in something that does bad things?

You cannot define God with logic.
I think that's always the problem with this argument.

And if you call that a cop-out then, that's your peroration, but I can only explain my position so many times before I'm just repeating myself.

Told is a matter of faith.
Perhaps I'm wrong and God doesnt exist.
Perhaps you're wrong and he does.

We will never know will we?

Point 1) Says who?
Point 2) Of course I can question this, all you are doing is offering no explanation as to why I cannot.
Point 3) It is avoiding the points
Point 4) I do not discount that a God may exist, my view is that if one does exist that are unable to do anything or do not care about humans.
Who wants to believe in something like that as it is either useless or evil.
Eddie the point on this is if a God did exist and on why it does nothing or is incapable of doing anything.

I've already answered those points Didge, somewhere on this thread.

by Guest Wed Feb 18, 2015 9:41 pm

Fuzzy Zack wrote:
Brasidas wrote:

3 emotions again

Oh you claim I am using the wrong definition of Quran and that you hold the correct one even though no Muslim can even claim to hold the correct view being again as no religious person can prove they are following the correct and true aspect of their faith. They only have faith to claim that they are.
Doh
You claimed I should ask any Muslims and ISIS also claim to be Muslims and there views on Jihad are clearly at odds with your views are they not?
So how can anyone tell their views or your views are right on Jihad, as both of you will claim the other is wrong and again we are left with ambiguous verses to go off. Which neither side can hope to claim is the right way

I guess laughter is an emotion. What do you have against emotions Phil?

Where Did I say you were using the wrong definition of the Quran? Lol!

Show me where ISIS's views are in the Quran and we can debate subjectively. Go>

I have nothing against emotions Zack, though I have watched many times you try to use this as some form of attack on other posters as if it heightens your point, which it never does. Maybe you will start to acta tad more grown up in these debates or I can keep lecturing you on the emotive state of mind.
So more deflections from my points.
You know very well you cannot prove your views are the correct ones, that is a matter of faith.
In regards to IS, you surely disagree on their views on jihad and martyrdom?

by Guest Wed Feb 18, 2015 9:46 pm

eddie wrote:
Brasidas wrote:

Point 1) Says who?
Point 2) Of course I can question this, all you are doing is offering no explanation as to why I cannot.
Point 3) It is avoiding the points
Point 4) I do not discount that a God may exist, my view is that if one does exist that are unable to do anything or do not care about humans.
Who wants to believe in something like that as it is either useless or evil.
Eddie the point on this is if a God did exist and on why it does nothing or is incapable of doing anything.

I've already answered those points Didge, somewhere on this thread.

Eddie, I know you want to believe in a creator or a god, this is fine, just as it is fine for others to pose and question points on this and in conclusion, to me what you really more believe in is an after life, one that does not even need a creator or deity.
Ask yourself why does there even need to be a God for even souls to exist?
Could it be if souls do exist, they have always existed. The views on this actually predate the Abrahamic faiths. The Cathars believed that this world was created by evil and that all the souls were tricked into being drawn to earth, where they have to go through many lives good and bad to obtain enlightenment. It also had views from within Christianity. It is up to you what you believe but I think yours is more spiritual than it is religious and can be based around and after life.

by Fuzzy Zack Wed Feb 18, 2015 9:47 pm

Brasidas wrote:
Fuzzy Zack wrote:

I guess laughter is an emotion. What do you have against emotions Phil?

Where Did I say you were using the wrong definition of the Quran? Lol!

Show me where ISIS's views are in the Quran and we can debate subjectively. Go>

I have nothing against emotions Zack, though I have watched many times you try to use this as some form of attack on other posters as if it heightens your point, which it never does. Maybe you will start to acta tad more grown up in these debates or I can keep lecturing you on the emotive state of mind.
So more deflections from my points.
You know very well you cannot prove your views are the correct ones, that is a matter of faith.
In regards to IS, you surely disagree on their views on jihad and martyrdom?

Lol! Do you really think I didn't figure out what game you were playing. As you have now admitted, I invented that game.

Again show me where ISIS's views on Jihad are in the Quran and I will happily respond - and yes, happiness is also an emotion which you have failed to highlight in bold in previous posts.

I think your confusing my emotional state with a lack of empathy.

by Guest Wed Feb 18, 2015 9:51 pm

Fuzzy Zack wrote:
Brasidas wrote:

I have nothing against emotions Zack, though I have watched many times you try to use this as some form of attack on other posters as if it heightens your point, which it never does. Maybe you will start to acta tad more grown up in these debates or I can keep lecturing you on the emotive state of mind.
So more deflections from my points.
You know very well you cannot prove your views are the correct ones, that is a matter of faith.
In regards to IS, you surely disagree on their views on jihad and martyrdom?

Lol! Do you really think I didn't figure out what game you were playing. As you have now admitted, I invented that game.

Again show me where ISIS's views on Jihad are in the Quran and I will happily respond - and yes, happiness is also an emotion which you have failed to highlight in bold in previous posts.

I think your confusing my emotional state with a lack of empathy.

There is no game, you are just not as good as understanding the human mind, you think you do and yet have failed badly here.
I am asking you, which I have done now 3 times whether your views on Jihad and now twice on Martyrdom are the same or different.
You can keep deflecting which you do often and have done so throughout this debate, as I am happy for you to do so.
So up to you to answer on whether you think your views on Jihad are the same or different.
Then we will talk about verses in the Quran.

by Guest Wed Feb 18, 2015 9:52 pm

Fuzzy Zack wrote:
darknessss wrote:

A test it might well be in some respects zack...BUT why does it have to be "god sent"

lets try this....

is god omnipotent?

is god omniscient?

I don't need God to predict where you are going with this, so I thought id save some time:

http://www.understanding-islam.com/q-and-a/overview-of-islam/if-god-is-omnipotent-and-omniscient-then-how-can-man-be-responsible-for-his-deeds-4766

I have taken the liberty of C&P that article zack, in the interests of good debate....you are actually only partly correct in what my line of argument was.
for the sake of the argument I will allow the possibility that your abrahamic god exists

Question

If God is omniscient and omnipotent then how can we be held responsible for making "choices" we could not possibly have made, without his knowledge and permission? If we do have freewill, does it mean that God is limited in knowledge and power? And if he is limited, then what else can he not do?

Question from United Kingdom
Answer

Man's freedom to choose between right and wrong is granted by God Himself. This freedom does not, in any way, limit God's knowledge or His powers.

so..Agreed

God created man and granted Him the freedom to choose between 'good' and 'evil' for a limited time and in a very limited area of activities. Man is responsible for the 'good' and the 'evil' that he does only when such 'good' or 'evil' is done by man's freewill. I can easily tell the difference between when, in practical life, I am forced to do 'evil' or when 'evil' is, unintentionally, wrought through my hands and when I opt to do 'evil'. While in a state of extreme hunger, I did not have any other option but to steal some bread to keep myself alive. Nevertheless, when I lied on the witness stand and falsely implicated an innocent person, in my greed to earn a few pennies, I knew deep inside that I was free to save myself from the detestable act, had I wanted to. The detestability of my act is not affected, in the least, by whether the Omniscient God, knew about it before I committed it, or not. Thus, my freewill is not affected, in any way, by God's pre-knowledge of any of my actions.

likewise agreed

It should further be kept in mind that all my actions, which emanate from my freewill are not dependent upon God's pre-knowledge of these actions. I know, through introspection, that I am never forced to do 'good' or 'evil', when I want to do otherwise. In other words, God's pre-knowledge of any of our deeds does not affect our deeds in any way. Thus, God's omniscience does not, in any way, affect man's freewill.

agreed, since any argument otherwise introduces temporal paradox's which are irreconcilable

The Question: 'Can man do otherwise than what God knew beforehand?' is only a philosophical question. It has no practical significance at all. It would only have had a practical significance had man known about what God knew beforehand and then would have tried to alter it. As things stand, for all practical purposes, man is responsible for the actions that he commits with his freewill and this responsibility of man is not affected by whether God knew about man's actions beforehand or not. Thus, it would not be very accurate to say that 'God knows that Tom would commit a grave sin two days later', on the contrary, it would be more accurate to say that 'God knows that Tom, with his freewill, would commit a grave sin two days later'.

A profound and subtle argument...non the less ...agreed

Now let us consider the relationship between God's omnipotence and man's freewill: In the course of the test, during the life of this world, God has granted man the opportunity to do what he wants to do. During this time, God does not, generally, hinder man from carrying out his evil desires nor forces him into doing good. This permission is granted by the Omnipotent and the Omniscient, Himself. Thus, because this freedom is bestowed upon man, by God Himself; because man enjoys this freedom only for the time for which God, Himself, has decided to grant man the privilege; because man enjoys this freedom only in the particular circles of activities, in which God, Himself has allowed man this privilege (see note 1); because, God shall hold man responsible for the decisions that he takes by utilizing this great privilege; and because even with this great privilege, God has complete control over man, we cannot, therefore, say that man's freewill, during the life of this world and within a limited circle of activities, refutes God's omnipotence.

here is where the problem begins to become manifest

The Question: 'If God is omnipotent, then why does He not stop man from doing evil?' is actually based on a lack of appreciation of the concept of test, during the life of this world. God, for the purpose of this test,has decided that He would generally not interfere in man's decisions. A close analysis would show that had that not been the case, the 'test', during the life of this world, would have been impossible. It is, in fact, this lack of direct interference from God, in most of the cases, which makes this 'test' possible. This is precisely what the Qur'an has referred to in the following verse (Al-Maaidah 5: 48):

And had God so desired, He would have made you a single people [and not given you the freedom to deviate], but for the purpose of testing you in what He has bestowed upon you [He granted you freedom].

I hope this helps.

here is where the problem stands out

You see, the concept of this test challenges neither the monipotence OR the omniscience of your god

what it does is raise the question WHY

why test ...when god already knows the answer.....

if he knows "Fred will sin greiviously two days down the line" (lets say he rapes tortures and murders someone) Why does he actually need to let the "test go ahead"
given that these actions will result in serious suffering to a number of people
AND
that he will then Fry Fred in the pit forever

why not just not let "Fred" NEVER EXIST.....in the first place

the SAME argument applies to those who are made to suffer from "freds" actions.....He KNOWS already ...he ALWAYS from the beginning knew.....how those folks would react....that is no test.... Anf if the answer to that, is that its to give them say, "inner strength in adversity" why not just gift them with that when they are created? why the "suffering"

You see ZACK MY point is .....that if it is a test
AND
god is omnipotent and omniscient

then He is callous and wicked

its like me taking a cat and putting it in a tin over an open fire as a "test" to see what it does....

I already KNOW the result...in doing such a test I'm just being vile...........there is NO benefit or reason for me doing so...
It does NOT improve my knowlege of cats...and it does NOT imporve the cat in anyway...(it wouldnt even imporve my knowlege of the countrys legal system)

Moreover....

note 1

ANY "sin" that "Fred" may do is finite... and I think we can say that is confimed by the marked line above

"because man enjoys this freedom only in the particular circles of activities, in which God, Himself has allowed man this privilege"

that is to say NO mans sin can cause infinite damage , to god (or presumably the universe)

thus one has to ask WHY god prescribes infinite punishment (like frying in the pit forever) for relatively minor sins like disbelief...or even blasphemy...

these things...which are no more than, indeed to an omnipotent god much less than, playground insults and childish tantrums
are punished witn a ferocity beyond conception.......

so WHY infinite punishment for VERY finite misdeeds.

Finally Zack.......please explain (and the christians are no better) why...

does an omnipotent god....who can (presumably) fry me out of existance with a single thought......need an army of men to do his killing for him

why does god need to have a crazed mob stone an adulterer or the homosexualto death???? (whether you think adultery or homosexuality deserves death is irrelevant atm)

why doesnt he "do it himself" Surely if "HE " is te giver of life .....only HE (directly and not through a third party) has the right to terminate it

which suggest that either
these so called judges and "gods murderers" are deluded and should be removed by their own logic

OR that god actually isnt omnipotent and CANT do the deed

OR that god is a moral coward afraid of "getting his hands dirty"

OR that indeed god is a callous so and so...who either cant be bothered or is highly amused by our actions.....(god is a kid with an ant farm theory)

by Fuzzy Zack Wed Feb 18, 2015 10:06 pm

As I've mentioned earlier: this is a test to determine who we really are. Only when faced with actual obstacles, can we realise our true response. Not just an assumed response.

you can say you will respond in a particular way when faced with a situation (such as defend a girl being raped) but you will only really now your response when faced with that situation.

If God were to interfere with the limited actions of Man and give us information from the future, it would be like CHEATING the test.

Therefore God doesn't interfere with the judgement of men (ie criminal law). For example, just because murderer was excited, does not mean he's going to hell. gods judgement is separate.

I may have missed some of your points - but so what. You can educate yourself.

by Guest Wed Feb 18, 2015 10:12 pm

Fuzzy Zack wrote:As I've mentioned earlier: this is a test to determine who we really are. For who's benefit? Only when faced with actual obstacles, can we realise our true response. Not just an assumed response.

you can say you will respond in a particular way when faced with a situation (such as defend a girl being raped) but you will only really now your response when faced with that situation.

If God were to interfere with the limited actions of Man and give us information from the future, it would be like CHEATING the test.

no need to "give information"...thatsNOT the inference.....why not just give me the "abilities" required when I'm created.... what needs a test????

Therefore God doesn't interfere with the judgement of men (ie criminal law). For example, just because murderer was excited, does not mean he's going to hell. gods judgement is separate.

but "gods judgement" is clearly stated .....at least for some (and often the most minor) sins

I may have missed some of your points - but so what. You can educate yourself.

classic non response of the ignorant religiosi......and demonstrating moral cowardice......

no points answered and a HUGE body swerve to avoid the uncomfortable......

you are not educated...you are indoctrinated...and CANT answer...because there ARE no (satisfactory) answers

by Guest Wed Feb 18, 2015 10:13 pm

Come on Zack, there was far more there that Victor asked and was actually really interested to see your responses to the many points he made.
I have to say that is a huge let down and is a massive copout.

Have to say I do not agree with all of Victors post, but the later half was some of the most interesting and excellent points raised I have seen for some time on here.
Is up to you, but to leave unanswered allows his points to very much stand unchallenged

by Guest Wed Feb 18, 2015 10:13 pm

GSM

(game, set and match to me)

to coin a didgism Laughing

by Fuzzy Zack Wed Feb 18, 2015 10:18 pm

darknessss wrote:
Fuzzy Zack wrote:As I've mentioned earlier: this is a test to determine who we really are. For who's benefit? Only when faced with actual obstacles, can we realise our true response. Not just an assumed response.

you can say you will respond in a particular way when faced with a situation (such as defend a girl being raped) but you will only really now your response when faced with that situation.

If God were to interfere with the limited actions of Man and give us information from the future, it would be like CHEATING the test.

no need to "give information"...thatsNOT the inference.....why not just give me the "abilities" required when I'm created.... what needs a test????

Therefore God doesn't interfere with the judgement of men (ie criminal law). For example, just because murderer was excited, does not mean he's going to hell. gods judgement is separate.

but "gods judgement" is clearly stated .....at least for some (and often the most minor) sins

I may have missed some of your points - but so what. You can educate yourself.

classic non response of the ignorant religiosi......and demonstrating moral cowardice......

no points answered and a HUGE body swerve to avoid the uncomfortable......

you are not educated...you are indoctrinated...and CANT answer...because there ARE no (satisfactory) answers

It's 3:45 in the morning where I am.

You can assume what you want about me, if it makes you feel better about yourself. That's your loss, not mine.

by Fuzzy Zack Wed Feb 18, 2015 10:19 pm

Brasidas wrote:Come on Zack, there was far more there that Victor asked and was actually really interested to see your responses to the many points he made.
I have to say that is a huge let down and is a massive copout.

Have to say I do not agree with all of Victors post, but the later half was some of the most interesting and excellent points raised I have seen for some time on here.
Is up to you, but to leave unanswered allows his points to very much stand unchallenged

Oh no. I can't allow his points to remain unchallenged. What about my faith and personal belief system?

by Fuzzy Zack Wed Feb 18, 2015 10:21 pm

If you can be a good boy a put your points in a more concise manner, I will try to respond tomorrow.

I hate reading coloured bits here and there. Help a bro out.

by Guest Wed Feb 18, 2015 10:23 pm

Enjoy your kip Zack and will catch you later.

by Guest Wed Feb 18, 2015 10:25 pm

Night Victor

Have to say, easily the best argument so far on the debate which stands very much unchallenged and lets hope it is challenged tomorrow, as I will watch with interest.

by Guest Wed Feb 18, 2015 10:25 pm

Fuzzy Zack wrote:
darknessss wrote:

classic non response of the ignorant religiosi......and demonstrating moral cowardice......

no points answered and a HUGE body swerve to avoid the uncomfortable......

you are not educated...you are indoctrinated...and CANT answer...because there ARE no (satisfactory) answers

It's 3:45 in the morning where I am.

In which case you are excused a long reply......especially since I know from other posts you suffer "jet lag" ughhh....

but seriously Zack.....I AM NOT out to attempt to "shake your faith"...how or what YOU believe in is fine by me...on the understanding that that goes both ways....

however you complan that people dont "understand " your faith....well ...you know what...you are RIGHT I certainly dont...and the answers I am looking for WONT appear like magic out of a book, especially one which has to be translated into my language , requires interpreting, and relies almost exclusively on historical perspective ....
what will give me at least a partial insight is answers to questions like those above

I GENUINLY DO NOT understand the concept of god testing anything....(since by definition he already knows the answer)

You can assume what you want about me, if it makes you feel better about yourself. That's your loss, not mine.

by veya_victaous Wed Feb 18, 2015 11:25 pm

I GENUINLY DO NOT understand the concept of god testing anything....(since by definition he already knows the answer)

+ 1000

Unless he thrives off tormenting things.. Suspect

based on the Bible and Koran is highly probable.. Suspect

and if we make that assumption it also explains all the lies in both books..
Actually Monotheism makes Sense if You a change the one-god from being nice to being a sociopath. what if his desire was to make life to watch it suffer?

by Fuzzy Zack Thu Feb 19, 2015 10:47 am

darknessss wrote:
Fuzzy Zack wrote:

It's 3:45 in the morning where I am.

In which case you are excused a long reply......especially since I know from other posts you suffer "jet lag" ughhh....

but seriously Zack.....I AM NOT out to attempt to "shake your faith"...how or what YOU believe in is fine by me...on the understanding that that goes both ways....

however you complan that people dont "understand " your faith....well ...you know what...you are RIGHT I certainly dont...and the answers I am looking for WONT appear like magic out of a book, especially one which has to be translated into my language , requires interpreting, and relies almost exclusively on historical perspective ....
what will give me at least a partial insight is answers to questions like those above

I GENUINLY DO NOT understand the concept of god testing anything....(since by definition he already knows the answer)

You can assume what you want about me, if it makes you feel better about yourself. That's your loss, not mine.

It is true that in Islamic philosophy that God already knows if we will pass the test or not.

But you and I don't - becuase we have no foreknowledge. Does this mean we should not try?

The 'test' is nothing more than being a good person, such as being caring and charitable. Or as the Quran puts it, not to deviate from the "straight path". It's no more complex than that.

The reward for passing the test is eternal life without any suffering. Or suffer eternally in hell.

If we knew we were condemned to hell, then why try being good? If we know we are assigned to heaven, then again, why try? It is not knowing, that makes us try (if you believe).

by Fuzzy Zack Thu Feb 19, 2015 10:50 am

veya_victaous wrote:

I GENUINLY DO NOT understand the concept of god testing anything....(since by definition he already knows the answer)

+ 1000

Unless he thrives off tormenting things.. based on the Bible and Koran is highly probable.. and if we make that assumption it also explains all the lies in both books..
Actually Monotheism makes Sense if You a change the one-god from being nice to being a sociopath. what if his desire was to make life to watch it suffer?

Funny how people blame God for the bad stuff and don't give him credit for the good stuff in your life.

That means only when you suffer do you remember God. And that is why God tests you.

by Fuzzy Zack Thu Feb 19, 2015 10:54 am

@Vic - if God gave you abilities from birth without any hard work from yourself, what will you learn?

Learning to acquire abilities is the most important part of the journey. A bit like Martial Arts or anything else for that matter.

by Fuzzy Zack Thu Feb 19, 2015 10:55 am

Re: shaking my faith. I have no problem with this. I do it to myself all the time. This is how I test my faith.

by stardesk Thu Feb 19, 2015 10:57 am

Good morning Veya. You've made a point which I've often thought, about God being a sociopath etc. I wonder at times whether he looks down on humanity like a board game. He plays one against the other without any consideration for the outcome, as long as he wins.

You mentioned Paganism earlier. It is easy to accept life as a feminine principle, seeding life on many worlds throughout the Universe. As I've said before, there are twice as many Goddesses as there are Gods.

Talking about life throughout the Universe, our planet inhabits what is familiarly known as the Goldilocks Zone, a zone at the right distance from its parent sun to allow life to flourish. The latest estimates calculate there are as many as 10,000 planets in the Universe in Goldilocks zones.

Mention has been made above about free will. This is a faculty based on Adam's sudden realisation that he was naked, prior to which he and Eve would have been no more than animals. From that point on free will began to function. Where was God, to allow that to happen?

by Fuzzy Zack Thu Feb 19, 2015 11:01 am

http://www.al-islam.org/justice-god-sayyid-saeed-akhtar-rizvi/test-and-suffering

This article talks about some of the aspects i have mentioned.

Since some of you believe I'm making my Islam up as I go, you can read what someone else has to say.

by Fuzzy Zack Thu Feb 19, 2015 11:03 am

stardesk wrote:Good morning Veya. You've made a point which I've often thought, about God being a sociopath etc. I wonder at times whether he looks down on humanity like a board game. He plays one against the other without any consideration for the outcome, as long as he wins.

You mentioned Paganism earlier. It is easy to accept life as a feminine principle, seeding life on many worlds throughout the Universe. As I've said before, there are twice as many Goddesses as there are Gods.

Talking about life throughout the Universe, our planet inhabits what is familiarly known as the Goldilocks Zone, a zone at the right distance from its parent sun to allow life to flourish. The latest estimates calculate there are as many as 10,000 planets in the Universe in Goldilocks zones.

Mention has been made above about free will. This is a faculty based on Adam's sudden realisation that he was naked, prior to which he and Eve would have been no more than animals. From that point on free will began to function. Where was God, to allow that to happen?

An interfering God negates free will.

by nicko Thu Feb 19, 2015 11:06 am

There is no god, except for the one in your head that tells you right from wrong.

by Fuzzy Zack Thu Feb 19, 2015 11:09 am

nicko wrote:There is no god, except for the one in your head that tells you right from wrong.

Are you hearing voices in your head, old man? Might be time to get a doctor to check you out.

by Guest Thu Feb 19, 2015 11:18 am

Fuzzy Zack wrote:Re: shaking my faith. I have no problem with this. I do it to myself all the time. This is how I test my faith.

Have you ever taken the outside test?
This basically means looking at your faith in the same critical process you would look at other faiths and atheism.

by Guest Thu Feb 19, 2015 11:20 am

Fuzzy Zack wrote:http://www.al-islam.org/justice-god-sayyid-saeed-akhtar-rizvi/test-and-suffering

This article talks about some of the aspects i have mentioned.

Since some of you believe I'm making my Islam up as I go, you can read what someone else has to say.

Most views on Islam are interpretations of the verses and you know this Zack.
It is basically Muslims giving their meaning to verses.
This is another reason to show why such a book is far from perfect or even complete.

by nicko Thu Feb 19, 2015 11:21 am

Been" checked out" as you call it, nothing wrong with my head, I can't say the same about yours though. You are one spanner short of a toolbox if you believe the bullshit you hear at you local Mosque ,-----oh well allah ackbar, [or something like that] bye the way ,why are you not in Iraq fighting us Kaffirs?

by Guest Thu Feb 19, 2015 11:23 am

Fuzzy Zack wrote:
nicko wrote:There is no god, except for the one in your head that tells you right from wrong.

Are you hearing voices in your head, old man? Might be time to get a doctor to check you out.

I really do not think you are in a position to mock here when you think your prayers are being listened to something you cannot prove exists.
hence why religion is nothing short of a mental illness.
We claim people who hear voices in their head have a problem but excuse religious people viewing they are talking to something immaginary.

Go figure

by Fuzzy Zack Thu Feb 19, 2015 11:25 am

Brasidas wrote:
Fuzzy Zack wrote:Re: shaking my faith. I have no problem with this. I do it to myself all the time. This is how I test my faith.

Have you ever taken the outside test?
This basically means looking at your faith in the same critical process you would look at other faiths and atheism.

From my teenage years, I've examined the ideas (inc reading scriptures) of many faiths. I read the Quran for the first time (in English and fully) in the same way as I read my Gideons Bible. And even the concept of no God.

Contrary to what many may believe, my parents (or grandparents) didn't give me the religious indoctrination many presume Muslim kids have.

But Islam is the one religion that resonates with me completely.

by Fuzzy Zack Thu Feb 19, 2015 11:27 am

Brasidas wrote:
Fuzzy Zack wrote:

Are you hearing voices in your head, old man? Might be time to get a doctor to check you out.

I really do not think you are in a position to mock here when you think your prayers are being listened to something you cannot prove exists.
hence why religion is nothing short of a mental illness.
We claim people who hear voices in their head have a problem but excuse religious people viewing they are talking to something immaginary.

Go figure

Hmm - now who's lost their sense of humour? Lol!

We all have voices in our head - inc atheists.

by nicko Thu Feb 19, 2015 11:28 am

Go see a Sky Pilot!

by Guest Thu Feb 19, 2015 11:28 am

Fuzzy Zack wrote:
Brasidas wrote:

Have you ever taken the outside test?
This basically means looking at your faith in the same critical process you would look at other faiths and atheism.

From my teenage years, I've examined the ideas (inc reading scriptures) of many faiths. I read the Quran for the first time (in English and fully) in the same way as I read my Gideons Bible. And even the concept of no God.

Contrary to what many may believe, my parents (or grandparents) didn't give me the religious indoctrination many presume Muslim kids have.

But Islam is the one religion that resonates with me completely.

That is fair enough, but you have also learnt many other things since you first read the Quran.
It is like the previous flaw I stated to you before about Islam how it needs outside sources for a supposed claim to a complete and perfect book and by doing so nullifies such a concept.
Are you being biased when you look at your own faith.
The outsider test is looking at your own faith with as critical a view as you would now look at other faiths as well as atheism Zack

by Fuzzy Zack Thu Feb 19, 2015 11:28 am

nicko wrote:Been" checked out" as you call it, nothing wrong with my head, I can't say the same about yours though. You are one spanner short of a toolbox if you believe the bullshit you hear at you local Mosque ,-----oh well allah ackbar, [or something like that] bye the way ,why are you not in Iraq fighting us Kaffirs?

I don't need to go to Iraq to do that. You're in the UK.

by nicko Thu Feb 19, 2015 11:30 am

You do make I laugh zack.

by Guest Thu Feb 19, 2015 11:30 am

Fuzzy Zack wrote:
Brasidas wrote:

I really do not think you are in a position to mock here when you think your prayers are being listened to something you cannot prove exists.
hence why religion is nothing short of a mental illness.
We claim people who hear voices in their head have a problem but excuse religious people viewing they are talking to something immaginary.

Go figure

Hmm - now who's lost their sense of humour? Lol!

We all have voices in our head - inc atheists.

Do you, you actually hear?
I do not think so, you can process thoughts around your concious, this is not hearing what so ever in the conventional sense.
So again this does not escape the fact you think you are talking to something which does not respond what so ever.
Ifg someone told you they were in direct communication with Jesus, would you think they were nuts?

by Fuzzy Zack Thu Feb 19, 2015 11:42 am

Brasidas wrote:
Fuzzy Zack wrote:

From my teenage years, I've examined the ideas (inc reading scriptures) of many faiths. I read the Quran for the first time (in English and fully) in the same way as I read my Gideons Bible. And even the concept of no God.

Contrary to what many may believe, my parents (or grandparents) didn't give me the religious indoctrination many presume Muslim kids have.

But Islam is the one religion that resonates with me completely.

That is fair enough, but you have also learnt many other things since you first read the Quran.
It is like the previous flaw I stated to you before about Islam how it needs outside sources for a supposed claim to a complete and perfect book and by doing so nullifies such a concept.
Are you being biased when you look at your own faith.
The outsider test is looking at your own faith with as critical a view as you would now look at other faiths as well as atheism Zack

I've said this before and it has been proven even on this board - one can read but not understand.

The Quran is more of a readers digest. Some of it is even ambiguous - and that's actuakly by design - as stated in chapter 2 or 3. This is to test people's wisdom. So even reading the Quran is a TEST.

You may believe I looked at these religions with a bias towards Islam but I had no attachememt to any faith when I was younger.

by Fuzzy Zack Thu Feb 19, 2015 11:44 am

Brasidas wrote:
Fuzzy Zack wrote:

Hmm - now who's lost their sense of humour? Lol!

We all have voices in our head - inc atheists.

Do you, you actually hear?
I do not think so, you can process thoughts around your concious, this is not hearing what so ever in the conventional sense.
So again this does not escape the fact you think you are talking to something which does not respond what so ever.
Ifg someone told you they were in direct communication with Jesus, would you think they were nuts?

Yes, I do have an internal voice. I'm constantly talking to myself, inside my head. Even asking questions.

by Guest Thu Feb 19, 2015 11:48 am

Fuzzy Zack wrote:
Brasidas wrote:

Do you, you actually hear?
I do not think so, you can process thoughts around your concious, this is not hearing what so ever in the conventional sense.
So again this does not escape the fact you think you are talking to something which does not respond what so ever.
Ifg someone told you they were in direct communication with Jesus, would you think they were nuts?

Yes, I do have an internal voice. I'm constantly talking to myself, inside my head. Even asking questions.

Not surprised that you do but do you hear othewr voices inside your head?
Anyhow the view you think you are talking to a deity through prayer is nothing short os absurd

by Guest Thu Feb 19, 2015 11:50 am

Fuzzy Zack wrote:
Brasidas wrote:

That is fair enough, but you have also learnt many other things since you first read the Quran.
It is like the previous flaw I stated to you before about Islam how it needs outside sources for a supposed claim to a complete and perfect book and by doing so nullifies such a concept.
Are you being biased when you look at your own faith.
The outsider test is looking at your own faith with as critical a view as you would now look at other faiths as well as atheism Zack

I've said this before and it has been proven even on this board - one can read but not understand.

The Quran is more of a readers digest. Some of it is even ambiguous - and that's actuakly by design - as stated in chapter 2 or 3. This is to test people's wisdom. So even reading the Quran is a TEST.

You may believe I looked at these religions with a bias towards Islam but I had no attachememt to any faith when I was younger.

Then it is not perfect which it claims to be and to claim it is a test is basically nothing short of a contradiction.
These are jut more excuses to me as to why the religion contradicts.
The worst part is that a perfect and complete boik should need outside unauthenticated sources.
The outsider test is difficult to do for people because they will hold back in how they view their own faith compared to how they would view another.

by Guest Thu Feb 19, 2015 11:53 am

Also disappointed you have not taken on on Victors point Zack.
Like he says this is a golden opportunity to explain your faith how you view as a practicing Muslim.

by Fuzzy Zack Thu Feb 19, 2015 12:19 pm

Brasidas wrote:
Fuzzy Zack wrote:

I've said this before and it has been proven even on this board - one can read but not understand.

The Quran is more of a readers digest. Some of it is even ambiguous - and that's actuakly by design - as stated in chapter 2 or 3. This is to test people's wisdom. So even reading the Quran is a TEST.

You may believe I looked at these religions with a bias towards Islgam but I had no attachememt to any faith when I was younger.

Then it is not perfect which it claims to be and to claim it is a test is basically nothing short of a contradiction.
These are jut more excuses to me as to why the religion contradicts.
The worst part is that a perfect and complete boik should need outside unauthenticated sources.
The outsider test is difficult to do for people because they will hold back in how they view their own faith compared to how they would view another.

As the one of the verses stated above, God could have created us with perfect knowledge that is easy to understand but the Quran also serves as a purpose to test our wisdom.

Some get it wrong. That doesn't make the book imperfect. It makes people imperfect.

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