Question for Creationists

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QUESTION FOR CREATIONISTS

For the sake of this argument we must assume God was responsible for the creation of all life on Earth.    To put the question in the right perspective, a brief quote from Genesis:

Genesis 24: ‘And God went on to say “Let the earth put forth living souls according to their kinds, domestic animal and moving animal and wild beast of the earth according to their kind.” And it came to be.’

Now the scene is set for this serious question to our Creationist members:
If God was/is so powerful, able to create suns and planets, and all the life on Earth, why create dinosaurs then allow them to be exterminated from the planet about 65 million years ago? This event was believed to have been caused by a meteor 6 miles wide, (and a couple of others) slamming into Earth. Coupled with huge volcanic eruptions such events caused a change in the atmosphere, consequently responsible for a climate change making food resources in short supply and the ultimate death of the dinosaurs, coupled with poisonous gasses from the volcanic eruptions. This was exacerbated  due to thick dust  darkening the skies for a year or more causing the death and destruction of a lot of plant life as well as the dinosaurs.

As asked above, why did God allow this to happen and have to start all over again with different, new species of life? Surely with his power he could have stopped the meteors, or was it beyond his abilities, thereby making him not so powerful as portrayed and believed?

Over to you folks.

Fuzzy Zack wrote:

Brasidas wrote:


What a copout reply.
I have spirtuality which shows you only associate this with religion.
Again why should the child have to suffer in agony?
To allow something innocent to suffer is evil, there is no two ways about this.
By this you are stating it is acceptable for people to suffer.
That is evil.

Again - only through suffering do you learn who you truly are.

You're making me sound like Buddha. Lol! That's how little spirituality you have. You live in a world where all you see is physical matter (ie the material world).

Complete nonsense, you are again stating that it is acceptable for people to suffer.
That is pure evil on any level.
This is the bases why we see a problem within islam, because you have just proven you find it acceptable for people to suffer and do not see it as wrong as any rational person would do so.
So you would have no problem with somebody with torturing you basically affecting your well being and think its all part of Gods plan, even though you have done nothing wrong.
Fucking hilarious
As to my spiritruality how wrong again you are which has nothiong to so with anything religious and yet you still argue based off a religious view.

So basically you have just made any person who has suffered through hsitory as acceptable based off no rational reason other than some mumbo jumbo.

That is shocking to say the least

Fuzzy Zack wrote:

Brasidas wrote:


I think you will find it is you that wrongly assumed on me, when you said you recognise people without spirtuality and yet you are wrong.
Again.
So will you admit you thus cannot tell what people are spiritual as clearly you are basing who is on a misunderstanding one born clearly from religion, as you clearly were wrong about me.

Your question was predictable, so read my answer above.

Feel free to give me your version of spirituality - I'm off to work out and then out for the night.

I will read it later. I could do with a good laugh. ;-)

Not sure I want to laugh at how you are callus and quite warped it seems to think it is acceptable for people to suffer who have done no wrong.
I think if you said that to most rational people they would place you into a mental institution to be honest.
This is the kind of madness that religion allows for, that they think it is okay that people suffer both physically and mentally.
As to my spirituality, it is down to experinces i feel with my inner conscience, which I am happy to expand upon which has no bases or relevance to religion.
When you are back let me know if there was no God, if you think it is acceptable for anyone to suffer any pain if they are innocent of any wrong.
Lets see how you answer.
Imagine no God exists.

Good luck and enjoy your night out

He has always been the same didge [as you know] ALLAH- AKBAH, or something like that.

nicko wrote:He has always been the same didge [as you know]     ALLAH- AKBAH,    or something like that.

To be honest Nicko it is not just Islam that teaches this kind of insanity, where they make an argument to make physical pain and suffering acceptable.
I am just astounded because I take Zack to be rational.
I think this further expands on my point on how religion blinds people to rational thought and thinking.
Seriously I am stunned how anyone can think it is accetable to suffer any physical pain or suffering, based off nothing they can prove about an after life of which even worse if you believe the wrong deity you will suffer eternally.
Seriously religion is one fucked up belief system, than makes rational people think the most absurd view points.

How can any rational person believe when you die you get 72 vigins, what do the women get? and why the number 72? answer please zack.

My issue re suffering is not that we don't need it. As a humanist who appreciates THIS life in a way no god/heaven believer ever could I fully appreciate that our suffering makes us stronger and the bad experiences in life are also balanced by the good- which is why no matter how much people DO suffer they rarely give up.

But some do give up. Some take their own lives it gets so bad. Failures in god's eyes I presume?

Back to a humanist appreciation of life, I say so because we are aware of our mortality and the fact life is sonething we only have once and is very brief. Living it for the now is therefore paramount; for believers its always about what comes next- nothing could devalue humanity more than a striving for a place in heaven.

I still cannot comprehend Eilzel how believers feel that physical pain and suffering is a test. This makes no logical sense when people like for example are physically scarred by rape, torture etc. This to me excuses some of the most barbaric wrongs that happen to humans basing a view of a test. I find that barbaric in any shape or form. Yes it is a testment to how people can cope with such an ordeal that people do so, but to say a god allows this to test people to me is nothing short of evil on any level.

Brasidas wrote:I still cannot comprehend Eilzel how believers feel that physical pain and suffering is a test. This makes no logical sense when people like for example are physically scarred by rape, torture etc. This to me excuses some of the most barbaric wrongs that happen to humans basing a view of a test. I find that barbaric in any shape or form. Yes it is a testment to how people can cope with such an ordeal that people do so, but to say a god allows this to test people to me is nothing short of evil on any level.

Agreed. The idea that a woman being raped; a child being beaten to death by it's parents; an entire village being butchered etc is a 'test', to me is just a believer's attempts to fit suffering into their delusional idea that there 'must be' a creator and that said creator 'must be' justified in their actions. It is a grotesque display of wishful thinking.

don't let's beat about the bush, it's total bullshit.

nicko wrote:don't let's beat about the bush,    it's total bullshit.

Agreed Nicko

Agreed Eilzel

Brasidas wrote:

Fuzzy Zack wrote:

Your question was predictable, so read my answer above.

Feel free to give me your version of spirituality - I'm off to work out and then out for the night.

I will read it later. I could do with a good laugh. ;-)

Not sure I want to laugh at how you are callus and quite warped it seems to think it is acceptable for people to suffer who have done no wrong.
I think if you said that to most rational people they would place you into a mental institution to be honest.
This is the kind of madness that religion allows for, that they think it is okay that people suffer both physically and mentally.
As to my spirituality, it is down to experinces i feel with my inner conscience, which I am happy to expand upon which has no bases or relevance to religion.
When you are back let me know if there was no God, if you think it is acceptable for anyone to suffer any pain if they are innocent of any wrong.
Lets see how you answer.
Imagine no God exists.

Good luck and enjoy your night out

So where's your view on spirituality? Was that really it? Lol! I'll be nice and give you one more chance to give me a substantial reply.

As for your question, I think we can agree that even if God doesn't exist, suffering definitely does exist.

You can either use that suffering as a springboard to be constructive in life, or be total loser. Only after suffering, do you find out which one you really are. You can't find out without obstacles in life. That is how you grow as a human being, get enlightened and explore your spirituality.

As for being callus or evil. You should know by now that I'm not an emotional person. Such labels mean nothing to me.

Brasidas wrote:

Fuzzy Zack wrote:

Again - only through suffering do you learn who you truly are.

You're making me sound like Buddha. Lol! That's how little spirituality you have. You live in a world where all you see is physical matter (ie the material world).

Complete nonsense, you are again stating that it is acceptable for people to suffer.
That is pure evil on any level.
This is the bases why we see a problem within islam, because you have just proven you find it acceptable for people to suffer and do not see it as wrong as any rational person would do so.
So you would have no problem with somebody with torturing you basically affecting your well being and think its all part of Gods plan, even though you have done nothing wrong.
Fucking hilarious
As to my spiritruality how wrong again you are which has nothiong to so with anything religious and yet you still argue based off a religious view.

So basically you have just made any person who has suffered through hsitory as acceptable based off no rational reason other than some mumbo jumbo.

That is shocking to say the least

A great demonstration of how over emotional you are about my comments, to the point you describe them as evil. Lol!

As I said above, suffering exists with or without God and no matter what say or think, suffering is not going anywhere.

You can either choose to use suffering constructively or destroy your life like a loser. I have no sympathy for life's losers. That is their choice.

nicko wrote:He has always been the same didge [as you know]     ALLAH- AKBAH,    or something like that.

And you are one of life's losers.

Brasidas wrote:

nicko wrote:He has always been the same didge [as you know]     ALLAH- AKBAH,    or something like that.

To be honest Nicko it is not just Islam that teaches this kind of insanity, where they make an argument to make physical pain and suffering acceptable.
I am just astounded because I take Zack to be rational.
I think this further expands on my point on how religion blinds people to rational thought and thinking.
Seriously I am stunned how anyone can think it is accetable to suffer any physical pain or suffering, based off nothing they can prove about an after life of which even worse if you believe the wrong deity you will suffer eternally.
Seriously religion is one fucked up belief system, than makes rational people think the most absurd view points.

I will repeat: regardless of what think or say, suffering will always exist.

It is up to you how to respond.

Do you think you can advance in life without obstacles, with everything just given to you? I don't think you're that silly.

I have zero sympathy for all those whiners who whinge "why do I have to suffer?" I say, grow a spine.

Fuzzy Zack wrote:

Brasidas wrote:


Not sure I want to laugh at how you are callus and quite warped it seems to think it is acceptable for people to suffer who have done no wrong.
I think if you said that to most rational people they would place you into a mental institution to be honest.
This is the kind of madness that religion allows for, that they think it is okay that people suffer both physically and mentally.
As to my spirituality, it is down to experinces i feel with my inner conscience, which I am happy to expand upon which has no bases or relevance to religion.
When you are back let me know if there was no God, if you think it is acceptable for anyone to suffer any pain if they are innocent of any wrong.
Lets see how you answer.
Imagine no God exists.

Good luck and enjoy your night out

So where's your view on spirituality? Was that really it? Lol! I'll be nice and give you one more chance to give me a substantial reply.

As for your question, I think we can agree that even if God doesn't exist, suffering definitely does exist.

You can either use that suffering as a springboard to be constructive in life, or be total loser. Only after suffering, do you find out which one you really are. You can't find out without obstacles in life. That is how you grow as a human being, get enlightened and explore your spirituality.

As for being callus or evil. You should know by now that I'm not an emotional person. Such labels mean nothing to me.

That is the problem with religious people they are so blinded to see that their own views cloud their ability to rationalize something like pain and suffering to the point they think it is acceptable based on the same evidence that someone thinks Elvis Presley is still alive.
In other words irrational. They is no doctrine that makes such an assertion in Islam and it is just Muslims themselves coming up with the most insane view to make people suffering the most unimaginable to pain to be acceptable to make their deity in some way look good.
It is nothing short of a lie that you are feeding yourself, where it is evidently clear within your Quran there is insurmountable references to torment and pain for people in an after life, basing a view of what pain does to people. This in itself proves the lie you and other Muslims are formulating around a view that it is not something to concern ourselves with if people suffer the most unimaginable pain like the Jordanian Pilot did at the hands of ISIS. This is what is fundamentally wrong about many of the religions, where they certainly understand the fears placed by their deity on not believing and what will happen in the claim to a next life, they certainly fear this unimaginable pain and in the next breath make an absurd view that real physical pain we know and understand is all okay and part of some test.
It really proves how so absurd that concept that you and others have invented is.
As to spirituality, this is allowing myself to become free within my own consciousness taking on forms of positive emotions like happiness for example about others whilst not even being in their company, but actually feeling what is going on within their lives at that present moment. This is just one example of spirituality without religion or religious experiences.

nicko wrote:How can any rational person believe when you die you get 72 vigins,    what do the women get? and why the number 72?  answer please zack.

I'm quite happy to rectify your silly prejudices:

http://www.justislam.co.uk/product.php?products_id=216

Fuzzy Zack wrote:

Brasidas wrote:

Complete nonsense, you are again stating that it is acceptable for people to suffer.
That is pure evil on any level.
This is the bases why we see a problem within islam, because you have just proven you find it acceptable for people to suffer and do not see it as wrong as any rational person would do so.
So you would have no problem with somebody with torturing you basically affecting your well being and think its all part of Gods plan, even though you have done nothing wrong.
Fucking hilarious
As to my spiritruality how wrong again you are which has nothiong to so with anything religious and yet you still argue based off a religious view.

So basically you have just made any person who has suffered through hsitory as acceptable based off no rational reason other than some mumbo jumbo.

That is shocking to say the least

A great demonstration of how over emotional you are about my comments, to the point you describe them as evil. Lol!

As I said above, suffering exists with or without God and no matter what say or think, suffering is not going anywhere.

You can either choose to use suffering constructively or destroy your life like a loser. I have no sympathy for life's losers. That is their choice.

So you are claiming the burning to the death of the Jordanian pilot was not in fact evil and Allah if he exists allows this man to suffer unimaginable pain and all because you claim of nothing that comes from any understanding in the Quran other than countless references to eternal pain by things like fire, butis some test by Allah, even though this man dies in agony.
That is evil beyond belief if your deity exists and does nothing to stop this man suffering pain.
In factit is quite sadistic in any shape or form

Fuzzy Zack wrote:

Brasidas wrote:

To be honest Nicko it is not just Islam that teaches this kind of insanity, where they make an argument to make physical pain and suffering acceptable.
I am just astounded because I take Zack to be rational.
I think this further expands on my point on how religion blinds people to rational thought and thinking.
Seriously I am stunned how anyone can think it is accetable to suffer any physical pain or suffering, based off nothing they can prove about an after life of which even worse if you believe the wrong deity you will suffer eternally.
Seriously religion is one fucked up belief system, than makes rational people think the most absurd view points.

I will repeat: regardless of what think or say, suffering will always exist.

It is up to you how to respond.

Do you think you can advance in life without obstacles, with everything just given to you? I don't think you're that silly.

I have zero sympathy for all those whiners who whinge "why do I have to suffer?"  I say, grow a spine.

Dear me nobody is saying that suffering will go away, what is being debated here, is if a deity exists and allows people to suffer unnecessarily. This means this deity has no care to the harm inflicted on people in a physical life where they certain in some cases will go through unimaginable pain and suffering, all of which a deity you claim exists could do something about it.
Millions of children die each year with utterly no chance of reaching an adult life and yet to you this is okay , because they will go to some imaginary heaven as baby souls I guess and from what I read if Non-Muslims will be the servants to Muslims souls. Just one interpretation that some Muslims have of course. What this shows is that religion has no care of the physical life or what happens to people within a physical life, even though they have no evidence that anything else exists after.
That again is a showing of little compassion to the people that really do exist in this physical world.
So you have no sympathy for a woman who complains to Allah as a Muslim, why she suffers and why she has been gang raped by ISIS extremists?

Brasidas wrote:

Fuzzy Zack wrote:

So where's your view on spirituality? Was that really it? Lol! I'll be nice and give you one more chance to give me a substantial reply.

As for your question, I think we can agree that even if God doesn't exist, suffering definitely does exist.

You can either use that suffering as a springboard to be constructive in life, or be total loser. Only after suffering, do you find out which one you really are. You can't find out without obstacles in life. That is how you grow as a human being, get enlightened and explore your spirituality.

As for being callus or evil. You should know by now that I'm not an emotional person. Such labels mean nothing to me.

That is the problem with religious people they are so blinded to see that their own views cloud their ability to rationalize something like pain and suffering to the point they think it is acceptable based on the same evidence that someone thinks Elvis Presley is still alive.
In other words irrational. They is no doctrine that makes such an assertion in Islam and it is just Muslims themselves coming up with the most insane view to make people suffering the most unimaginable to pain to be acceptable to make their deity in some way look good.
It is nothing short of a lie that you are feeding yourself, where it is evidently clear within your Quran there is insurmountable references to torment and pain for people in an after life, basing a view of what pain does to people. This in itself proves the lie you and other Muslims are formulating around a view that it is not something to concern ourselves with if people suffer the most unimaginable pain like the Jordanian Pilot did at the hands of ISIS. This is what is fundamentally wrong about many of the religions, where they certainly understand the fears placed by their deity on not believing and what will happen in the claim to a next life, they certainly fear this unimaginable pain and in the next breath make an absurd view that real physical pain we know and understand is all okay and part of some test.
It really proves how so absurd that concept that you and others have invented is.
As to spirituality, this is allowing myself to become free within my own consciousness taking on forms of positive emotions like happiness for example about others whilst not even being in their company, but actually feeling what is going on within their lives at that present moment. This is just one example of spirituality without religion or religious experiences.

No - that's not spirituality. It is about using life's experiences to grow as a person and become more enlightened.

No wonder you don't get it.

But I actually asked you to demonstrate a simple point to Eddie - that even Atheists 'crave' spirituality. Doesn't that speak volumes, Eddie. Lol!

And suffering is all part of Islam. Not my view. Don't lie or pretend you know anything about Islam. Because you don't. Islam is all about persevering through struggle and adversity.

As for the Jordanian pilot: that wasn't God, you muppet. That was the evil of man. Lol! How absurd are you?

Fuzzy Zack wrote:

Brasidas wrote:



That is the problem with religious people they are so blinded to see that their own views cloud their ability to rationalize something like pain and suffering to the point they think it is acceptable based on the same evidence that someone thinks Elvis Presley is still alive.
In other words irrational. They is no doctrine that makes such an assertion in Islam and it is just Muslims themselves coming up with the most insane view to make people suffering the most unimaginable to pain to be acceptable to make their deity in some way look good.
It is nothing short of a lie that you are feeding yourself, where it is evidently clear within your Quran there is insurmountable references to torment and pain for people in an after life, basing a view of what pain does to people. This in itself proves the lie you and other Muslims are formulating around a view that it is not something to concern ourselves with if people suffer the most unimaginable pain like the Jordanian Pilot did at the hands of ISIS. This is what is fundamentally wrong about many of the religions, where they certainly understand the fears placed by their deity on not believing and what will happen in the claim to a next life, they certainly fear this unimaginable pain and in the next breath make an absurd view that real physical pain we know and understand is all okay and part of some test.
It really proves how so absurd that concept that you and others have invented is.
As to spirituality, this is allowing myself to become free within my own consciousness taking on forms of positive emotions like happiness for example about others whilst not even being in their company, but actually feeling what is going on within their lives at that present moment. This is just one example of spirituality without religion or religious experiences.

No - that's not spirituality. It is about using life's experiences to grow as a person and become more enlightened.

No wonder you don't get it.

But I actually asked you to demonstrate a simple point to Eddie - that even Atheists 'crave' spirituality. Doesn't that speak volumes, Eddie. Lol!

And suffering is all part of Islam. Not my view. Don't lie or pretend you know anything about Islam. Because you don't. Islam is all about persevering through struggle and adversity.

As for the Jordanian pilot: that wasn't God, you muppet. That was the evil of man. Lol! How absurd are you?

Yes it is spirituality, which shows how limited your understanding of this really is.

http://www.samharris.org/waking-up

So what have you proved?
Zero, all you do is follow made up views from within Muslims themselves about why your diety does nothing in regards to people being butchered for example
You live a very big lie and you cannot even see this.
God allowed the Jordanian to suffer if he existed, which is the point you miss. That means if he had the means to do something he did nothing.
That is pure evil.
You re telling me that if you could save your child from unimaginable pain (which you are meant to be all Allah's children) you would do nothing to save them from this?
Work that one out for yourself and then understand that if you did nothing to save them, what would that make you.
Then place that in the concept of your own deity.

Brasidas wrote:

Fuzzy Zack wrote:

I will repeat: regardless of what think or say, suffering will always exist.

It is up to you how to respond.

Do you think you can advance in life without obstacles, with everything just given to you? I don't think you're that silly.

I have zero sympathy for all those whiners who whinge "why do I have to suffer?"  I say, grow a spine.

Dear me nobody is saying that suffering will go away, what is being debated here, is if a deity exists and allows people to suffer unnecessarily. This means this deity has no care to the harm inflicted on people in a physical life where they certain in some cases will go through unimaginable pain and suffering, all of which a deity you claim exists could do something about it.
Millions of children die each year with utterly no chance of reaching an adult life and yet to you this is okay , because they will go to some imaginary heaven as baby souls I guess and from what I read if Non-Muslims will be the servants to Muslims souls. Just one interpretation that some Muslims have of course. What this shows is that religion has no care of the physical life or what happens to people within a physical life, even though they have no evidence that anything else exists after.
That again is a showing of little compassion to the people that really do exist in this physical world.
So you have no sympathy for a woman who complains to Allah as a Muslim, why she suffers and why she has been gang raped by ISIS extremists?

As a person of little emotion, I rarely feel any sympathy. So no, I don't shed are tear for children dying or women being raped. Or pilots being torched alive. Or for you, for that matter. I'm not necessarily proud of this, it is just who I am. I'm far mor left brained than right. That's all.

And as I've said (and since you are now bringing God back into the equation), suffering is a tool for those still alive to become enlightend.

Fuzzy Zack wrote:

Brasidas wrote:


Dear me nobody is saying that suffering will go away, what is being debated here, is if a deity exists and allows people to suffer unnecessarily. This means this deity has no care to the harm inflicted on people in a physical life where they certain in some cases will go through unimaginable pain and suffering, all of which a deity you claim exists could do something about it.
Millions of children die each year with utterly no chance of reaching an adult life and yet to you this is okay , because they will go to some imaginary heaven as baby souls I guess and from what I read if Non-Muslims will be the servants to Muslims souls. Just one interpretation that some Muslims have of course. What this shows is that religion has no care of the physical life or what happens to people within a physical life, even though they have no evidence that anything else exists after.
That again is a showing of little compassion to the people that really do exist in this physical world.
So you have no sympathy for a woman who complains to Allah as a Muslim, why she suffers and why she has been gang raped by ISIS extremists?

As a person of little emotion, I rarely feel any sympathy. So no, I don't shed are tear for children dying or women being raped. Or pilots being torched alive. Or for you, for that matter. I'm not necessarily proud of this, it is just who I am. I'm far mor left brained than right. That's all.

And as I've said (and since you are now bringing God back into the equation), suffering is a tool for those still alive to become enlightend.

Wow, says it all I guess and now this is down to being left brained and not some false belief invented around why a deity if it existed does nothing to stop people suffering unimaginable pain.
How would your own daughter being raped to death for example be a tool to an enlightenment where you could save her from this but do nothing?

Brasidas wrote:

Fuzzy Zack wrote:

No - that's not spirituality. It is about using life's experiences to grow as a person and become more enlightened.

No wonder you don't get it.

But I actually asked you to demonstrate a simple point to Eddie - that even Atheists 'crave' spirituality. Doesn't that speak volumes, Eddie. Lol!

And suffering is all part of Islam. Not my view. Don't lie or pretend you know anything about Islam. Because you don't. Islam is all about persevering through struggle and adversity.

As for the Jordanian pilot: that wasn't God, you muppet. That was the evil of man. Lol! How absurd are you?

Yes it is spirituality, which shows how limited your understanding of this really is.

http://www.samharris.org/waking-up

So what have you proved?
Zero, all you do is follow made up views from within Muslims themselves about why your diety does nothing in regards to people being butchered for example
You live a very big lie and you cannot even see this.
God allowed the Jordanian to suffer if he existed, which is the point you miss. That means if he had the means to do something he did nothing.
That is pure evil.
You re telling me that if you could save your child from unimaginable pain (which you are meant to be all Allah's children) you would do nothing to save them from this?
Work that one out for yourself and then understand that if you did nothing to save them, what would that make you.
Then place that in the concept of your own deity.

Re: Jordsnian pilot - God 'allowed' man to exercise his free will, so such barbarity can be a lesson for us all.

And yes, you can do all you can to save your children - but understand this: God's will is greater than man's. At the end of the day, you are powerless - and must depend on the will of God. It is up to you how you choose to respond. You can choose to respond as a loser and blame God, using that as an excuse to ruin your own life. Or you can use is to be constructive - and perhaps help other children, when you couldn't save your own. That would be a constructive way to use your suffering, as a parent.

Brasidas wrote:

Fuzzy Zack wrote:

As a person of little emotion, I rarely feel any sympathy. So no, I don't shed are tear for children dying or women being raped. Or pilots being torched alive. Or for you, for that matter. I'm not necessarily proud of this, it is just who I am. I'm far mor left brained than right. That's all.

And as I've said (and since you are now bringing God back into the equation), suffering is a tool for those still alive to become enlightend.

Wow, says it all I guess and now this is down to being left brained and not some false belief invented around why a deity if it existed does nothing to stop people suffering unimaginable pain.
How would your own daughter being raped to death for example be a tool to an enlightenment where you could save her from this but do nothing?

No, I was talking about myself. D'uh! Not scripture. Lol!

Who said I wouldn't do anything to save someone (anyone) from being raped? If it is within my power, I will. That would be Gods will.

The question for the enlightened is: how would you respond of your daughter was raped bit could not save her as you were not there? IE after the fact.

Fuzzy Zack wrote:

Brasidas wrote:



Yes it is spirituality, which shows how limited your understanding of this really is.

http://www.samharris.org/waking-up

So what have you proved?
Zero, all you do is follow made up views from within Muslims themselves about why your diety does nothing in regards to people being butchered for example
You live a very big lie and you cannot even see this.
God allowed the Jordanian to suffer if he existed, which is the point you miss. That means if he had the means to do something he did nothing.
That is pure evil.
You re telling me that if you could save your child from unimaginable pain (which you are meant to be all Allah's children) you would do nothing to save them from this?
Work that one out for yourself and then understand that if you did nothing to save them, what would that make you.
Then place that in the concept of your own deity.

Re: Jordsnian pilot - God 'allowed' man to exercise his free will, so such barbarity can be a lesson for us all.

And yes, you can do all you can to save your children - but understand this: God's will is greater than man's. At the end of the day, you are powerless - and must depend on the will of God. It is up to you how you choose to respond. You can choose to respond as a loser and blame God, using that as an excuse to ruin your own life. Or you can use is to be constructive - and perhaps help other children, when you couldn't save your own. That would be a constructive way to use your suffering, as a parent.

We have no free will.
So your deity if he existed did nothing to stop his suffering.
So you can save your own daughter, but this deity will not save his own children.
Yeah that makes so much sense.
Not.
What will of God? Does your deity preach for people to suffer those who are innocent?
If yes, then this deity is not very good at reaching out to his believers or sending a clear message, when his own faith is meant to come from a perfect and complete book.
I do not believe a God exists, as my point is if one did exist, this deity has no care for the physical suffering for others. The fact is you and other religious people invent reasons to allow your deities to be free from any critical thought, where applying the same principles as seen, you though would try to save someone from such pain.
It then shows you have greater compassion than your own deity and yet you fail to even see that.
By saving someones life, you are doing something that if your deity exists chooses not to and no matter how many times you give me reasons as to why you think this deity does this, they are nothing more than invented to excuse your deity from doing anything to do what you would do yourself.
If you cannot even see that you then have more compassion, even though you say you are not that emotional, it shows you worship something of lesser worth than yourself.

Fuzzy Zack wrote:

Brasidas wrote:



Wow, says it all I guess and now this is down to being left brained and not some false belief invented around why a deity if it existed does nothing to stop people suffering unimaginable pain.
How would your own daughter being raped to death for example be a tool to an enlightenment where you could save her from this but do nothing?

No, I was talking about myself. D'uh! Not scripture. Lol!

Who said I wouldn't do anything to save someone (anyone) from being raped? If it is within my power, I will. That would be Gods will.

The question for the enlightened is: how would you respond of your daughter was raped bit could not save her as you were not there? IE after the fact.

Thank for proving my point again.
You would save someone but your deity does not.
Thus you show more compassion.
So you are right about one thing, this certainly teaches me about enlightenment, that humans possess far greater compassion than what is believed in regards to these make belief deities.
You worship something that is of lesser worth than yourself.

On the subject of Free will for you Zack

Brasidas wrote:

Fuzzy Zack wrote:

Re: Jordsnian pilot - God 'allowed' man to exercise his free will, so such barbarity can be a lesson for us all.

And yes, you can do all you can to save your children - but understand this: God's will is greater than man's. At the end of the day, you are powerless - and must depend on the will of God. It is up to you how you choose to respond. You can choose to respond as a loser and blame God, using that as an excuse to ruin your own life. Or you can use is to be constructive - and perhaps help other children, when you couldn't save your own. That would be a constructive way to use your suffering, as a parent.

We have no free will.
So your deity if he existed did nothing to stop his suffering.
So you can save your own daughter, but this deity will not save his own children.
Yeah that makes so much sense.
Not.
What will of God? Does your deity preach for people to suffer those who are innocent?
If yes, then this deity is not very good at reaching out to his believers or sending a clear message, when his own faith is meant to come from a perfect and complete book.
I do not believe a God exists, as my point is if one did exist, this deity has no care for the physical suffering for others. The fact is you and other religious people invent reasons to allow your deities to be free from any critical thought, where applying the same principles as seen, you though would try to save someone from such pain.
It then shows you have greater compassion than your own deity and yet you fail to even see that.
By saving someones life, you are doing something that if your deity exists chooses not to and no matter how many times you give me reasons as to why you think this deity does this, they are nothing more than invented to excuse your deity from doing anything to do what you would do yourself.
If you cannot even see that you then have more compassion, even though you say you are not that emotional, it shows you worship something of lesser worth than yourself.

I will respond by stating what YOU admitted: suffering exists with or without God.

So blaming God (as the week in spirituality always do), is utterly pointless.

Yes, God can save you from suffering. But you must suffer in the first place to be saved. Lol!

And if God does not endow you with the power to save, then that is God's will and your only choice is to use it to grow or perish as one of life's losers. That choice is all yours.

Brasidas wrote:On the subject of Free will for you Zack

Lol! It seems Sam Harris is your prophet.

Lol! A 55 minute video. Yeah right.

I suggest you summarise, if you want to make your point.

Although many of his points about genes and the nervous system is actually ISLAMIC. you would know that if you understood Islam.

Oh my goodness yet another feeble answer.
So you have to suffer the most unimaginable agony in death and be a non-believer to then suffer even more unimaginable pain and all because you have no comprehension of that faith being brought up within another religion
Sorry you are talking more and more gobbledygook and inventing things as you go along, as nothing you have said is even stated in the Quran and is either something you have read from other believers or something you have invented yourself.
Again given the choice to save someone from suffering you choose to save them, yet this deity could and does not.
That shows and proves you have far greater compassion.
I am not blaming any God as to me non-exists and this is based on the hypothetical situation if one did.
Try to understand the difference, I know it might be a big stretch of imagination for you.

Fuzzy Zack wrote:Lol! A 55 minute video. Yeah right.

I suggest you summarise, if you want to make your point.

Although many of his points about genes and the nervous system is actually ISLAMIC. you would know that if you understood Islam.

He certainly is my teacher, why you elude to a prophet shows how always religious people try to intertwine religion into normal rational scientific teaching. When they are so far removed as seen by what is being debated now
Sorry did you say Islamic.
PMSL
Here we go again you find something in the Quran and try and make the science fit.
Please spare me the pseudo babble on science in the quran
If you want to remain ignorant in regards to understanding free will is an illusion then be my guest.

Brasidas wrote:Oh my goodness yet another feeble answer.
So you have to suffer the most unimaginable agony in death and be a non-believer to then suffer even more unimaginable pain and all because you have no comprehension of that faith being brought up within another religion
Sorry you are talking more and more gobbledygook and inventing things as you go along, as nothing you have said is even stated in the Quran and is either something you have read from other believers or something you have invented yourself.
Again given the choice to save someone from suffering you choose to save them, yet this deity could and does not.
That shows and proves you have far greater compassion.
I am not blaming any God as to me non-exists and this is based on the hypothetical situation if one did.
Try to understand the difference, I know it might be a big stretch of imagination for you.

Have the guts to state what I've said (about Islam) that is not Islamic or Quranic and I will happily prove you absurd.

Fuzzy Zack wrote:

Brasidas wrote:Oh my goodness yet another feeble answer.
So you have to suffer the most unimaginable agony in death and be a non-believer to then suffer even more unimaginable pain and all because you have no comprehension of that faith being brought up within another religion
Sorry you are talking more and more gobbledygook and inventing things as you go along, as nothing you have said is even stated in the Quran and is either something you have read from other believers or something you have invented yourself.
Again given the choice to save someone from suffering you choose to save them, yet this deity could and does not.
That shows and proves you have far greater compassion.
I am not blaming any God as to me non-exists and this is based on the hypothetical situation if one did.
Try to understand the difference, I know it might be a big stretch of imagination for you.

Have the guts to state what I've said (about Islam) that is not Islamic or Quranic and I will happily prove you absurd.

You show me in the quran where it teaches this about your deity?
Do not try and wimp out yourself, as surely you can show me all these views you have that are found within the quran.
Please do not make me laugh, you claim this science is found within the Quran, then you offer proof to this claim, where I know of countless claims where they interpret words to try and fit real science.
It is nothing short of a joke and even worse is found to be taught within many Muslim schools and makes a mockery of science itself.
So yes you prove this amasing science you claim to be found in the Quran, you made the claim, the onus is on you.


Good luck

Fuzzy Zack wrote:

Brasidas wrote:Oh my goodness yet another feeble answer.
So you have to suffer the most unimaginable agony in death and be a non-believer to then suffer even more unimaginable pain and all because you have no comprehension of that faith being brought up within another religion
Sorry you are talking more and more gobbledygook and inventing things as you go along, as nothing you have said is even stated in the Quran and is either something you have read from other believers or something you have invented yourself.
Again given the choice to save someone from suffering you choose to save them, yet this deity could and does not.
That shows and proves you have far greater compassion.
I am not blaming any God as to me non-exists and this is based on the hypothetical situation if one did.
Try to understand the difference, I know it might be a big stretch of imagination for you.

Have the guts to state what I've said (about Islam) that is not Islamic or Quranic and I will happily prove you absurd.

2 emotions.
Religious people always get very emotional when there faith is challenged.

Brasidas wrote:

Fuzzy Zack wrote:

Have the guts to state what I've said (about Islam) that is not Islamic or Quranic and I will happily prove you absurd.

You show me in the quran where it teaches this about your deity?
Do not try and wimp out yourself, as surely you can show me all these views you have that are found within the quran.
Please do not make me laugh, you claim this science is found within the Quran, then you offer proof to this claim, where I know of countless claims where they interpret words to try and fit real science.
It is nothing short of a joke and even worse is found to be taught within many Muslim schools and makes a mockery of science itself.
So yes you prove this amasing science you claim to be found in the Quran, you made the claim, the onus is on you.


Good luck

Classic diversion.

You say I have lied and mentioned Islamic views IN THIS THREAD, that you think are not in the Quran.

So don't be a coward and state them one by one. Go...

Fuzzy Zack wrote:

Brasidas wrote:


You show me in the quran where it teaches this about your deity?
Do not try and wimp out yourself, as surely you can show me all these views you have that are found within the quran.
Please do not make me laugh, you claim this science is found within the Quran, then you offer proof to this claim, where I know of countless claims where they interpret words to try and fit real science.
It is nothing short of a joke and even worse is found to be taught within many Muslim schools and makes a mockery of science itself.
So yes you prove this amasing science you claim to be found in the Quran, you made the claim, the onus is on you.


Good luck

Classic diversion.

You say I have lied and mentioned Islamic views IN THIS THREAD, that you think are not in the Quran.

So don't be a coward and state them one by one. Go...

Emotional again

Yes you have lied, because I cannot find any Quranic verses that backs up many of the claims you are making about your deity.
That means they do not exist, so how am I to present something that does not exist?
Please explain that to me?

Brasidas wrote:

Fuzzy Zack wrote:

Have the guts to state what I've said (about Islam) that is not Islamic or Quranic and I will happily prove you absurd.

2 emotions.
Religious people always get very emotional when there faith is challenged.

Amazing how gutless you are when being confronted.

Don't get defensive and show some courage by stating exactly what Islamic things I have said within this thread that you think is not Quranic?

One last chance. I bet you will fail again.

Brasidas wrote:

Fuzzy Zack wrote:

Classic diversion.

You say I have lied and mentioned Islamic views IN THIS THREAD, that you think are not in the Quran.

So don't be a coward and state them one by one. Go...

Emotional again

Yes you have lied, because I cannot find any Quranic verses that backs up many of the claims you are making about your deity.
That means they do not exist, so how am I to present something that does not exist?
Please explain that to me?

Again you have failed to state precisely what.

Cowardice!

Fuzzy Zack wrote:

Brasidas wrote:


2 emotions.
Religious people always get very emotional when there faith is challenged.

Amazing how gutless you are when being confronted.

Don't get defensive and show some courage by stating exactly what Islamic things I have said within this thread that you think is not Quranic?

One last chance. I bet you will fail again.

3 emotions

Read again, you seem to be getting very emotional.

Yes you have lied, because I cannot find any Quranic verses that backs up many of the claims you are making about your deity.
That means they do not exist, so how am I to present something that does not exist?
Please explain that to me?

Fuzzy Zack wrote:

Brasidas wrote:

Emotional again

Yes you have lied, because I cannot find any Quranic verses that backs up many of the claims you are making about your deity.
That means they do not exist, so how am I to present something that does not exist?
Please explain that to me?

Again you have failed to state precisely what.

Cowardice!

I think you best go and chill out.
You have made many views and all you need to do is present some Quranic verses to claims you have made?
Plenty to pick from so you should have absolutely no trouble finding any to back your claims

Good luck

Brasidas wrote:

Fuzzy Zack wrote:

Amazing how gutless you are when being confronted.

Don't get defensive and show some courage by stating exactly what Islamic things I have said within this thread that you think is not Quranic?

One last chance. I bet you will fail again.

3 emotions

Read again, you seem to be getting very emotional.

Yes you have lied, because I cannot find any Quranic verses that backs up many of the claims you are making about your deity.
That means they do not exist, so how am I to present something that does not exist?
Please explain that to me?

Lol! Do you really think I care if you think I'm emotional. I take it as a compliment. Lol!

Again - as you cannot state your points precisely - one can only assume you were wrong.

Brasidas wrote:

Fuzzy Zack wrote:

Again you have failed to state precisely what.

Cowardice!

I think you best go and chill out.
You have made many views and all you need to do is present some Quranic verses to claims you have made?
Plenty to pick from so you should have absolutely no trouble finding any to back your claims

Good luck

Lol!

You're making the point that I lied but then cant even state where or how. That speaks volumes about the weakness of your argument.

If its so easy, then why are you so scared to tell me?

Fuzzy Zack wrote:

Brasidas wrote:


3 emotions

Read again, you seem to be getting very emotional.

Yes you have lied, because I cannot find any Quranic verses that backs up many of the claims you are making about your deity.
That means they do not exist, so how am I to present something that does not exist?
Please explain that to me?

Lol! Do you really think I care if you think I'm emotional. I take it as a compliment. Lol!

Again - as you cannot state your points precisely - one can only assume you were wrong.

It seems to be a case that you do not recognize when you are being very emotive, I am just helping you recognize this.
Pick any point you made that is a clear teaching in the Quran where "Allah" states about his inaction for example or how people have to suffer unimaginable pain like losing their own children to rape and murder which brings them to enlightenment.
In your own time.

Fuzzy Zack wrote:

Brasidas wrote:


I think you best go and chill out.
You have made many views and all you need to do is present some Quranic verses to claims you have made?
Plenty to pick from so you should have absolutely no trouble finding any to back your claims

Good luck

Lol!

You're making the point that I lied but then cant even state where or how. That speaks volumes about the weakness of your argument.

If its so easy, then why are you so scared to tell me?

3 emotions again


Pick any point you made that is a clear teaching in the Quran where "Allah" states about his inaction for example or how people have to suffer unimaginable pain like losing their own children to rape and murder which brings them to enlightenment.
In your own time.

Brasidas wrote:

Fuzzy Zack wrote:

Lol!

You're making the point that I lied but then cant even state where or how. That speaks volumes about the weakness of your argument.

If its so easy, then why are you so scared to tell me?

3 emotions again


Pick any point you made that is a clear teaching in the Quran where "Allah" states about his inaction for example or how people have to suffer unimaginable pain like losing their own children to rape and murder which brings them to enlightenment.
In your own time.

You will find many Quranic verses about this subject here:

http://islamqa.info/en/21434

You say you couldnt find these Quranic verses. Lol! Thank you for proving that you really haven't read the Quran.

Next.

Fuzzy Zack wrote:

Brasidas wrote:


3 emotions again


Pick any point you made that is a clear teaching in the Quran where "Allah" states about his inaction for example or how people have to suffer unimaginable pain like losing their own children to rape and murder which brings them to enlightenment.
In your own time.

You will find many Quranic verses about this subject here:

http://islamqa.info/en/21434

You say you couldnt find these Quranic verses. Lol! Thank you for proving that you really haven't read the Quran.

Next.

Show me the verses. I am not going to trawl through many, I read the Quran before and it bored me to death.
Again show me where in the Quran Allah excuses himself from saving people because they need to suffer losing their child to understand enlightenment

Brasidas wrote:

Fuzzy Zack wrote:

You will find many Quranic verses about this subject here:

http://islamqa.info/en/21434

You say you couldnt find these Quranic verses. Lol! Thank you for proving that you really haven't read the Quran.

Next.

Show me the verses. I am not going to trawl through many, I read the Quran before and it bored me to death.
Again show me where in the Quran Allah excuses himself from saving people because they need to suffer losing their child to understand enlightenment

Lol! You clearly didn't even read the link, let alone the Quran.

The link contains all the relavent verses, of you have the courage to look.

So the big evidence of verses which as I said speak nothing of your claims to allow unimaginable suffering.
So you did lie:




“And certainly, We shall test you with something of fear, hunger, loss of wealth, lives and fruits, but give glad tidings to As- Saabiroon (the patient).

Who, when afflicted with calamity, say: ‘Truly, to Allaah we belong and truly, to Him we shall return.’

They are those on whom are the Salawaat (i.e. who are blessed and will be forgiven) from their Lord, and (they are those who) receive His Mercy, and it is they who are the guided ones”

[al-Baqarah 2:155-157] 

“And Allaah loves As-Saabiroon (the patient)”

[Aal ‘Imraan 3:146] 

“Only those who are patient shall receive their reward in full, without reckoning”

[al-Zumar 39:10]

Brasidas wrote:So the big evidence of verses which as I said speak nothing of your claims to allow unimaginable suffering.
So you did lie:




“And certainly, We shall test you with something of fear, hunger, loss of wealth, lives and fruits, but give glad tidings to As- Saabiroon (the patient).

Who, when afflicted with calamity, say: ‘Truly, to Allaah we belong and truly, to Him we shall return.’

They are those on whom are the Salawaat (i.e. who are blessed and will be forgiven) from their Lord, and (they are those who) receive His Mercy, and it is they who are the guided ones”

[al-Baqarah 2-157] 

“And Allaah loves As-Saabiroon (the patient)”

[Aal ‘Imraan 3] 

“Only those who are patient shall receive their reward in full, without reckoning”

[al-Zumar 39]

Lol! Islam is all about preservering through struggle and suffering (JIHAD!?).

As those verses clearly state.

You also mentioned a precise case about the death of children. Which that link talks about specifically. See page title.

Your only recourse is now call me a liar - as you have no other option. Lol!