On Moderate Muslims

Eilzel wrote:Yes Zack but your reports claim monogamous gay relationships have no greater risk, while promiscuous straight men actually reduce risk- does this prove the consequence of sleeping around is better health? Is this what god intends? What is the consequence (on Earth) of me and my boyfriend getting married?

And I eagerly anticipate how you address the Suras didge just brought up.

Hi Eilzel


I mean the book is supposed to be complete and perfect, yet millions of Muslims clearly subconsciously do not realise that by using supporting works on hadiths etc like details of Muhammad's life. None of which survive from the time. All of which were written down hundreds of years later, where countless were discarded by Islamic scholars, based solely on a views and interpretations they had on the Quran (except Quranic Muslims).  Again this is viewing that either Allah did not write a complete or perfect book and that Muslims do not trust it being a complete and perfect book, because thy seek to look elsewhere for confirmation to back up the Quran. Or it is then not perfect and thus the work of men. If the book is perfect, the diety gives you all the advice and rights and wrongs you need to know about. You then would  have no need of trying to interpret what Muhammad meant in verses, as they are basically making Muhammad more important than Allah, with making laws on views Muhammad had whilst not receiving so called revelations. Where even worse most of these stories were passed down by word of mouth where one single change in a word can then make a completely new meaning to a phrase. To the point they are relying on claims to what someone did via hearsay.

He will attempt to argue otherwise, but he cannot escape the fact no perfect complete book, would need any corroboration from any sources, as it would be the word of God. Thus making laws and beliefs not commanded in the Quran is then going against what allah has created and thus emulating Muhammad above allah.

Excellent points didge.

By comparison I recall GiG/HF talking about a 'Concise Companion' he referred to when reading the Bible- as you say, if the book alone isn't clear enough to tell you ALL need to know, then there is an inherent problem with thr book itself.

The Koran and Muslims require the Hadiths, so how can the Koran alone be claimed as perfect...

Thanks Eilzel, though the problem is and no doubt Zck will come back with this verse and why they get the wrong view point from this sura.


"And obey God and obey the messenger and be cautious; but if you turn back, then know that the sole duty of the messenger is the deliverance (of the message)" 5:92


Obey each but be cautious. You would only caution someone where you command them to obey, only if some of Muhammad's views were in conflict with the Quran. That would make sense, s the book is supposed to be perfect and more important complete. As if Muhammad has his views added on top of the Quran itself. Thus the book is either incomplete and thus not perfect or the book could be perfect and complete and Muslims have failed to heed the caution given. That caution would then be about not confusing things Muhammad would have done on his own thinking, not the sura's handed down.

Side not and you will love this Eilzel If he goes down the road and view point of completely obeying everything Muhammad commanded. Then they would have to follow the oath set down by Muhammad with the "Achtiname of Muhammad". Which Muslims take as authentic. This states very clearly that Muhammad commands that it is the duty of all Muslims, to protect Christians.


http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2014/08/Muslim-jihadis-persecute-christians-disobeying-direct-order-muhammad.html


Thus failing to do so would be a very grievous sin using the logic of Sunni Muslims on the belief to obey Muhammad.

Now what either way he answers , he is snookered, because as stated the book would be incomplete and thus not perfect if thy follow Muhammad deeds and views that are not found or conflict with the Quran.
Or it is perfect and complete and thus those Muslims who abide by hadiths etc are thus also viewing the Quran as incomplete and not perfect by inventing commands not found in the Quran. Thus emulating Muhammad over their God. They supersede the hadiths over the Quran, where the Quran makes no such command. Being as the Quran is perfect and complete to Muslims. Then much of the criminal sharia law we see around the world today in Muslims where it is based off hadiths that clearly conflicts with the Quran where no such command is found is at odds with the Quran and thus unIslamic. This is proof the vast majority of Muslims are emulating Muhammad above Allah making laws that do not exist in the quran. What Muslims are endorsing is that the Quran is incomplete and that they are adding hadiths to the Quran.

Do you know Eilzel, without even realising it, until a bulb flashed in my head rereading back, I just proved what is true Islam according to the Quran, this alleged perfect complete book..
Only those that follow the Quran:

"Absolutely, we have revealed the "Zhikr" (Quran), and, absolutely, we will preserve it." 15:9

"Shall I seek other than God as a source of law, when He has revealed to you this book fully detailed?" 6:114

“Follow what has been sent down to you from your Lord (Quran); do not follow other masters beside Him.” 7:3

You will find that the Sunna of Allah is the only Sunna" (33:62....35:43.....48:23).

“Among the people, there are those who uphold baseless Hadith, and thus divert others from the path of God without knowledge, and take it in vain. These have incurred a shameful retribution.” 31:6



The Quran states that only Sunna is the Sunna of God. Nowhere in the Quran is there any mention of the Sunna of Muhammad.
So no Sunni or Shia is a True Muslim, as only a true Muslim would just follow the Quran. No other teachings are required which is also backed up in the Quran:

"It (the Quran) is a revelation from the Lord of the universe. Had he (Muhammad) uttered any other teachings, We would have grabbed him by the right, and We would have severed his Wateen (Major artery of the heart), none of you could have helped him." 69:43-47

Thus claims to things Muhammad has done or said in hadiths which are not in the Quran would be dismissed and should be dismissed as complete lies as per instructed in the verse above., As he would only teach the message, which would match the Quran, not deviate and claim new commands, laws view points. Otherwise they are claiming Muhammad of disobeying God's commands by creating a second source of religion to follow through the hadiths .Anyway that Kind of Islam would be slightly be better as many harsh levels of punishment like the death penalty would have to be dropped if they were not in the Quran. Though even this kind of Islam would still be backwards like many other religious faiths.


Which also puts a dent in Tommy's arguments, again without knowing I did so about true Muslims following Islam, as clearly the majority are not..

Funny how things turn out like that.

Yes.... and many Muslims are doing just that.... ISIS, and in Egypt, Libya.... fight the non believers etc....


Koran 9:29

The verse you do not understand, yes we know you are still struggling Tommy.

Tell me what bit of it I don't understand????



Seems pretty clear to me and exactly what Muslims are doing across Iraq, Syria, Egypt, Libya and elsewhere....

You have been told 100 times Tommy, oh my, I fail to see how one more time is going to help you after the first hundred times you di not understand.
If it was a verse to fight against non Muslims, you would have 1.5 billion Muslims doing this.
That has never happened in its history where all do.
That should give you a hint.

Your argument that because ALL aren't doing something does not detract from the fact of what is written in the guide book and instructed to those who follow it....


We have heard all the excuses....

Not true, doesn't exist, misquoted, out of context, fight doesn't mean violence or aggression (my particular favourite bit of bullshit from you bell ends!!!), doesn't mean what it says because not all Muslims are doing it.....



Etc, etc....


The list of excuses goes on...!!!!




But it all seems pretty clear to me....


Qur’an 9:28—O ye who believe! Truly the Pagans are unclean; so let them not, after this year of theirs, approach the Sacred Mosque. And if ye fear poverty, soon will Allah enrich you, if He wills, out of His bounty, for Allah is All-Knowing, All-Wise.

Qur’an 9:29—Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the Religion of Truth, from among the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

Qur’an 9:30—The Jews call Uzair a son of God, and the Christians call Christ the son of God. That is a saying from their mouth; (In this) they but imitate what the Unbelievers of old used to say. Allah’s curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth!

Qur’an 9:31—They take their priests and their anchorites to be their lords in derogation of Allah, and (they take as their Lord) Christ, the son of Mary; yet they were commanded to worship but One God: there is no god but He. Praise and glory to Him: (Far is He) from having the partners they associate (with Him).

Qur’an 9:32—Fain would they extinguish Allah’s Light with their mouths, but Allah will not allow but that His Light should be perfected, even though the Unbelievers may detest (it).

Qur’an 9:33—It is He Who hath sent His Messenger with Guidance and the Religion of Truth, to prevail it over all religion, even though the Pagans may detest (it).

Qur’an 5:51—O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other.

Qur’an 9:73—O Prophet! strive hard against the unbelievers and the hypocrites and be unyielding to them.

Qur’an 9:111—Surely Allah has bought of the believers their persons and their property for this, that they shall have the garden; they fight in Allah's way, so they slay and are slain.

Qur’an 9:123—O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness.

Qur’an 47:35—Be not weary and fainthearted, crying for peace, when ye should be uppermost.

Qur’an 48:29—Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah, and those who are with him are severe against disbelievers, and merciful among themselves.

Sahih Muslim 30—Muhammad said: “I have been commanded to fight against people so long as they do not declare that there is no god but Allah.”

Sahih Muslim 4366—Muhammad said: “I will expel the Jews and Christians from the Arabian Peninsula and will not leave any but Muslims.”

Sunan An-Nasa’i 3099—The Prophet said: “Whoever dies without having fought or having thought of fighting, he dies on one of the branches of hypocrisy.”

Sunan Ibn Majah 2763—The Messenger of Allah said: “Whoever meets Allah with no mark on him (as a result of fighting) in His cause, he will meet Him with a deficiency.”

Sahih al-Bukhari 6922—Allah’s Messenger said, “If anyone changed his Islamic religion, then kill him.”

Qur’an 6:114—Shall I seek for a judge other than Allah, when He it is Who has sent down to you the Book fully explained?

Qur’an 11:1—This is a Book, whose verses have been made firm and free from imperfection and then they have been expounded in detail.

Qur’an 12:1—These are verses of the clear Book.

Qur’an 16:89—And We have sent down to thee the Book explaining all things ...

Qur’an 27:1—These are verses of the Qur'an—a book that makes (things) clear.

Qur’an 41:3—A Book, whereof the verses are explained in detail ...

Yes there are some verses from the Quran, have you red the ones around them or are you going to just take as they stand?

You see it is embarrassing to have to debate someone so clueless on the subject as you are Tommy.

Allow Eilzel and I to continue the intelligent debate with Zack.
Instead of you spouting crap on a subject you do not know the first thing about

Ta

Still waiting for you to show me how these clear instructions mean something totally different,
as you keep (ridiculously) claiming but without ever providing any evidence or explanation....!?













We have heard all the excuses....

Not true, doesn't exist, misquoted, out of context, fight doesn't mean violence or aggression (my particular favourite bit of bullshit from you bell ends!!!), doesn't mean what it says because not all Muslims are doing it.....



Etc, etc....




Well...???

Oh, And your so called intelligent debate has largely consisted of les telling us how great man on man bum sex is, and you and zack waving handbags at your computer screens like a couple of old women!!!!


While the real issues are waffled away with the excuses I mentioned earlier....

You really are a dunce tommy. At what point did I mention what you just said? The subject was discussed in a scientific and religious context yes. Your immaturity is painful at times, and your vulgarity lets slip your innate presumptuous bias.

Or in tommy speak 'you're a dozy c**t'

You might notice tommy, that although it has got petty at times, none of us have just repeated a dumb statement over and over with no further support and ignoring any contrary point. Things were discussed, something you know nothing of.

Tommy Monk wrote:Still waiting for you to show me how these clear instructions mean something totally different,
as you keep (ridiculously) claiming but without ever providing any evidence or explanation....!?





We have heard all the excuses....

Not true, doesn't exist, misquoted, out of context, fight doesn't mean violence or aggression (my particular favourite bit of bullshit from you bell ends!!!), doesn't mean what it says because not all Muslims are doing it.....

Etc, etc....




Well...???

Still waiting.....

Eilzel wrote:You might notice tommy, that although it has got petty at times, none of us have just repeated a dumb statement over and over with no further support and ignoring any contrary point. Things were discussed, something you know nothing of.

Did you notice Zack was online this morning?
Guess this has him in a pickle..
As to Tommy, it just gets funnier by the minute.

Yep, just doing exactly what he always does, yawn... Lol

So after all the excuses, still no explanation about this mythical context you keep going on about....

Eilzel wrote:Yep, just doing exactly what he always does, yawn... Lol

You must be psychic Eilzel, as just as you predicted, he did exactly that.


Really impressed with that mate...

So you going to explain your context claims then?

You were right again Eilzel, seriously mate, how do you do it?

Tommy you have had it explained countless times on the verse, which is even already on this thread.
Anyway, if Muslims believe they should emulate Muhammad and obey commands he made, then it is the duty of Muslims to protect Christians, thus IS would be disobeying an oath created by Muhammad. Thus all extremists Muslims would be extremists and they would not be true Muslims according to Sunni beliefs.

For anyone on twitter, Maajid Nawaz has been covering some of the areas we have touched on:

"@MaajidNawaz: There is no "correct" Islam.It is all interpretation (Ijtihād).Only secular pluralism guarantees an equal right for all clerics to interpret"

@MaajidNawaz: @Lehanism one's 'truth' is another's interpretation

More waffle....



It's not just ISIS though dodge is it...?


Happening in Egypt, Libya and other places too!



The quote is quite clear.


You have not explained this mythical context you keep going on about, just more diversionary tactics.

Nobody denies it happens in other places, which is because the extremists are well funded and their reach is far. Where they are indoctrinating some Muslims with an extreme Islam.
The question you should be asking is why has not hundreds of millions of Muslims not flocked and joined with the extremists, when they ample have opportunity to do so? Surely people who you think are following the true Islam, would then have every Muslim as a true believer flocking to them. Why has this not happened?
Seriously Tommy, do yourself a favour and at least read from many sources, not just biased ones, but all, so can then at least have a basic understanding of debating religions.

Fact remains dodge, it happens and is instructed in their guide book the Koran.



Even so called moderate Muslims like zack and sexy mama who are not actively following this instruction at the moment still believe the Koran is perfect in every way and therefore support this action.


Plus would also support the other instructions and brutal punishments within as well.

There is no such thing as a moderate Muslim, did you not see the explanation to help you?
The claim you make making on Zack and Sexy, proves further that you are conceding points made to you, because you then lower yourself to now claim two people back IS. When that is balls, neither are extremists and have condemned them, because to both Zack and Sexy who are practicing Muslims, who know their faith and also know it is wrong what IS are doing.


That was really low and poor on your part Tommy

You misunderstand again, obviously deliberately to try to twist.



They believe the Koran is perfect in every way, as do the overwhelming majority of Muslims.



They therefore believe everything in it and are willing to follow The instructions in it too.


Although they may not at the moment be actively following every part of it now, they still agree with the principles. And would also probably carry out these instructions if given the chance.



And as I keep pointing out, it's not just ISIS who are carrying out the instructions in the book, It is happening in many other places too, and has done for centuries!!!



The whole doctrine is poisonous and dangerously aggressive.

You just made yourself look even lower, by claiming they agree with the principles, based off your view and understanding of Islam, where you view the Islam followed by IS is the true one. 
Again to them they do not follow the same principles, because IS are of the Wahhabism sect, which teaches hate to non-Muslims. 
Sexy and Zack do not follow the interpretations created in Wahhabism.

Again your view point is why you can not see why your comments were low and a very cheap attack, it is based off how you see Islam, clearly proving how little you understand about Islam.

If the principle is to attack Non_Muslims, then it clearly is not an agreed view point within Islam. For a start many Muslims as I have shown believe in the views and commands of Muhammad. If this is the case, then anything Muhammad says, he will have to be obeyed, which is what Sunni's follow the principle of. IS are Sunnis, thus they would have to obey the commands of Muhammad. They would then have to abide by the The Achtiname of Muhammad, to protect Christians and not to fight them. Muslims view this document as valid.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Achtiname_of_Muhammad


Thus your claim falls apart when as seen IS who are Sunnis, are fundamentally disobeying a command from Muhammad by attacking Christians.


Now you just placed Sexy and Zack into their category, not realizing that IS are thus not emulating Muhammad, but in fact going against what he commanded

Bullshit.


I said they have both admitted that they think the Koran is perfect in every way.


As do the overwhelming majority of Other Muslims.


Therefore they believe and support everything that's in there.


this includes the instruction to fight non believers, force convert, pay jizya or die.



Simple.



And do I have to point out again that it is not just ISIS who are threatening non Muslims, forcing them to convert or pay jizya or die. This is happening in other Muslim countries and has done for centuries.

Oh dear epic fail yet again, no they do not believe in fighting non believers, as that verse is in regards to those who do not pay the tax used in the past, where women, children, the elderly etc were all exempt from paying. Thus it would be impossible for this verse to mean to fight all Non_Muslims.
In fact history even proves you are wrong, by the fact there has been no nonstop war that has been engaged on Christians, since Islam was created. Muslims can only fight in self defense. Why you know so little about what is in the Quran.

So most Muslims are taught this verse is in regards to a time and was a call to fight tax dodgers, who only could be adult able men, as many others were exempt from paying.

So your view to Muslims, which seems to be one where there is no distinction with any Muslims or views on Islam. Maybe you can explain why it has been taught for centuries as a verse of the past and they belief this verse speaks only in regards to Non_Muslim citizens not paying their tax.
Thus they would  back a view that it is not command to just fight Christians for no reason, where again the majority of Muslims through history have shown that.

Hence your views to stigmatized them to IS was poor.

More waffle.....


The quote is clear in instruction to fight non believers and those who ' donor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger".



Force conversion, pay extortion jizya or die.



This is happening in Muslim countries just as It is written.



It also says don't have Jews or Christians as friends.



That is pretty unambiguous too.



Your attempts at deflection are laughable.

It is not waffle but damning evidence to your poor claim.
I am providing you with not only historical Islamic teachings, historical evidence of the vast majority of Muslims never fighting anyone.
Thus the actions of the vast majority of Muslims over time, proves they were never taught this as a verse to just fight people for no reason. Plus the evidence of documentation which Sunnis follow showing that many people were exempt from the Tax and even commanded to protect Christians. Thus it would be impossible for this verse to be a call to fight all non-believes when history shows that people were exempt from paying this tax. Thus the verse is clearly only in regards to those at the time who were Non-Muslims living in majority Muslim countries, that did not pay their tax. A tax that was far less than what Muslims themselves had to pay.
Even more damning to your claim, is there would not have been a single Christian left living in Muslim countries after around a hundred years, yet the oldest Christians communities have been living there since the dawn of Islam until the present day. They clearly would not exist, if your view on Islam was correct.

Vast majority of Muslims live among other Muslims.



But non Muslims are persecuted and have been for centuries.

So have Muslims been persecuted for centuries, but again no Christians, Jews and countless other minority religions would exist based on your claims. In fact Jews escaped from Europe to move to Muslim countries so they could continue to practice their faith where they could not do in the west. This historical evidence again shows your views are wrong. You would not move to somewhere thinking you will be attacked when you are already being attacked, that would again make no sense. Clearly they knew that they would not be attacked and allowed to settle into that Muslim country. Hence why again many Jewish communities survived for centuries until the formation of Israel. Only Israel's formation made Muslim countries wrongly react and cast out Jews. The Quran clearly did not ask them to do that.

You are a joker dodge....


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_exodus_from_Arab_and_Muslim_countries



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_under_Muslim_rule

Dear me, in your anger Tommy posts links to back up my views, you cannot make it up how some people are and just not that bright. As seen above I state that the expulsion happens with the formation of Israel and that Jews sought refuge in Muslim lands from persecution in the west:




During waves of persecution in Medieval Europe, many Jews found refuge in Muslim lands.[2] For instance, Jews expelled from the Iberian Peninsula were invited to settle in various parts of the Ottoman Empire, where they would often form a prosperous model minority of merchants acting as intermediaries for their Muslim rulers.

Jews have lived in Asia Minor for more than 2,400 years. Originally settling in Asia Minor in its Hellenistic period, they were driven out in the period of Byzantine rule between the 5th and 11th centuries, resettling there only after the occupation of much of Anatolia by Muslim Seljuk forces after the Battle of Manzikert. Jewish civilization grew and thrived with the Seljuk and Ottoman rule. For much of the subsequent Seljuk and Ottoman period, Turkey was a safe haven for Jews fleeing persecution


As stated the formation of Israel created hatred and expulsion:

Prior to the creation of Israel in 1948, approximately 800,000 Jews were living in lands which now make up the Arab world (excluding Israel). Of these, just under two-thirds lived in the French-controlled Maghreb region, 15–20% in the Kingdom of Iraq, approximately 10% in the Kingdom of Egypt and approximately 7% in the Kingdom of Yemen. A further 200,000 lived in Pahlavi Iran and the Republic of Turkey. Today, around 26,000 Jews live in Arab countries[2] and 26,000 in Turkey.[3]

The first large-scale exoduses took place in the late 1940s and early 1950s, primarily in Iraq, Yemen and Libya, with up to 90% of these communities leaving within a few years.


Thanks Tommy you just posted evidence that backs all my points. Now explain why Jews would move to Muslim lands, if they fought they would be attacked, when they are fleeing being attacked?

Jews and Christians had it way better in the Caliphate than Muslims had it at the hand of so-called Christians -- to say nothing of how Jews had it in Europe when European states were under the thrall of the fabricated Protocols.

I mean, paying a tax because you're not Muslim is still bullshit -- but human history is so littered with bullshit that you're forced to make calls about what was worse. Paying an additional tax was undoubtedly less bad than being accused as an evil world-dominating race.

Interestingly enough, the purported "Gay Agenda" has been circulated as authentic for years in the U.S. -- which tell me that not enough people listened to their history teachers, who (in my experience) usually argued that you have to know history in order to keep from repeating it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexual_agenda#Initial_usage

Ben_Reilly wrote:Jews and Christians had it way better in the Caliphate than Muslims had it at the hand of so-called Christians -- to say nothing of how Jews had it in Europe when European states were under the thrall of the fabricated Protocols.

I mean, paying a tax because you're not Muslim is still bullshit -- but human history is so littered with bullshit that you're forced to make calls about what was worse. Paying an additional tax was undoubtedly less bad than being accused as an evil world-dominating race.

Interestingly enough, the purported "Gay Agenda" has been circulated as authentic for years in the U.S. -- which tell me that not enough people listened to their history teachers, who (in my experience) usually argued that you have to know history in order to keep from repeating it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexual_agenda#Initial_usage

Tommy is just not that bright, I mean lets face it, if you read the history of Jews in the Middle East before the rise of Zionism, any persecution of Jews was sporadic and isolated to some individual local rulers. I mean if as Tommy believes the verse to mean Muslims are obligated to fight Non-Muslims, then he would have 1400 years of evidence where all Non Muslims living in Muslim majority countries would be constantly persecuted. As seen, this just did not happen. As seen it was only sporadic instances of persecution that ever happened. It really dispels Tommy's claim, history always does, as there is no case for continuous persecution of Jews in 1400 years of Islam's history.

I knew you would be highly selective in your quotes dodge, trying to portray a happy utopia.... but sadly that was not reality.



By the time of the Muslim conquests of the 7th century, ancient Jewish communities had existed in many parts of the Middle East and North Africa since Antiquity. Jews under Islamic rule were given the status of dhimmi

In year 20 of the Muslim era, or the year 641 AD, Muhammad's successor the Caliph 'Umar decreed that Jews and Christians should be removed from all but the southern and eastern fringes of Arabia—a decree based on the (sometimes disputed) uttering of the Prophet: "Let there not be two religions in Arabia". The two populations in question were the Jews of the Khaybar oasis in the north and the Christians of Najran.[7][8] Only the Red Sea port of Jedda was permitted as a "religious quarantine area" and continued to have a small complement of Jewish merchants


Although life later improved under Muslim rulean interfaith utopia did not exist.[9]:58 Jewish people still experienced persecution. Under Islamic Rule, the Pact of Umar was introduced, which protected the Jews but also established them as inferior.[9]:59 Since the 11th century, there have been instances of pogroms against Jews.[12] Examples include the 1066 Granada massacre, the razing of the entire Jewish quarter in the Andalucian city of Granada.[13] In North Africa, there were cases of violence against Jews in the Middle Ages,[14] and in other Arab lands including Egypt,[15] Syria.[16] and Yemen[17] Jewish population was confined to segregated quarters, or mellahs, in Morocco beginning from the 15th century. In cities, a mellah was surrounded by a wall with a fortified gateway. In contrast, rural mellahs were separate villages inhabited solely by the Jews.[18] The Almohads, who had taken control of much of Islamic Iberia by 1172, were far more fundamentalist in outlook than the Almoravides, and they treated the dhimmis harshly. Jews and Christians were expelled from Morocco and Islamic Spain.[19] Faced with the choice of either death or conversion, some Jews, such as the family of Maimonides, fled south and east to the more tolerant Muslim lands, while others went northward to settle in the growing Christian kingdoms.[20][21] In 1465, Arab mobs in Fez slaughtered thousands of Jews, leaving only 11 alive, after a Jewish deputy vizier treated a Muslim woman in an offensive manner. The killings touched off a wave of similar massacres throughout Morocco

In 1656, all Jews were expelled from Isfahan because of the common belief of their impurity and forced to convert to Islam. However, as it became known that the converts continued to practice Judaism in secret and because the treasury suffered from the loss of jizya collected from the Jews, in 1661 they were allowed to revert to Judaism, but were still required to wear a distinctive patch on their clothing.[24]


Confined to city quarters, the Bukharan Jews were denied basic rights and many were forced to convert to Islam. They had to wear black and yellow dress to distinguish themselves from the Muslims.


Under the Zaydi rule, discriminatory laws became more severe against the Yemenite Jews, which culminated in their eventual exile, in what later became known as the Exile of Mawza. They were considered to be impure, and therefore forbidden to touch a Muslim or a Muslim's food. They were obligated to humble themselves before a Muslim, to walk to the left side, and greet him first. They could not build houses higher than a Muslim's or ride a camel or horse, and when riding on a mule or a donkey, they had to sit sideways. Upon entering the Muslim quarter a Jew had to take off his foot-gear and walk barefoot. If attacked with stones or fists by Islamic youth, a Jew was not allowed to defend himself. In such situations he had the option of fleeing or seeking intervention by a merciful Muslim passerby.


In 1834, in Safed local Muslim Arabs carried out a massacre of the indigenous (Old Yishuv) Jewish population of that city in the Safed Plunder.

In 1839, in the eastern Persian city of Meshed, a mob burst into the Jewish Quarter, burned the synagogue, and destroyed the Torah scrolls. It was only by forcible conversion that a massacre was averted.[27] There was another massacre in Barfurush in 1867.[28][29] In 1839, the Allahdad incident, the Jews of Mashhad, Iran, now known as the Mashhadi Jews, were coerced into converting to Islam.[30]

In the middle of the 19th century, J. J. Benjamin wrote about the life of Persian Jews:

"…they are obliged to live in a separate part of town…; for they are considered as unclean creatures… Under the pretext of their being unclean, they are treated with the greatest severity and should they enter a street, inhabited by Mussulmans, they are pelted by the boys and mobs with stones and dirt… For the same reason, they are prohibited to go out when it rains; for it is said the rain would wash dirt off them, which would sully the feet of the Mussulmans… If a Jew is recognized as such in the streets, he is subjected to the greatest insults. The passers-by spit in his face, and sometimes beat him… unmercifully… If a Jew enters a shop for anything, he is forbidden to inspect the goods… Should his hand incautiously touch the goods, he must take them at any price the seller chooses to ask for them... Sometimes the Persians intrude into the dwellings of the Jews and take possession of whatever please them. Should the owner make the least opposition in defense of his property, he incurs the danger of atoning for it with his life... If... a Jew shows himself in the street during the three days of the Katel (Muharram)…, he is sure to be murdered."


[31]In 1840, the Jews of Damascus were falsely accused of having murdered a Christian monk and his Muslim servant and of having used their blood to bake Passover bread.[32] A Jewish barber was tortured until he "confessed"; two other Jews who were arrested died under torture, while a third converted to Islam to save his life. Throughout the 1860s, the Jews of Libya were subjected to what Gilbert calls punitive taxation. In 1864, around 500 Jews were killed in Marrakech and Fez in Morocco. In 1869, 18 Jews were killed in Tunis, and an Arab mob looted Jewish homes and stores, and burned synagogues, on Jerba Island. In 1875, 20 Jews were killed by a mob in Demnat, Morocco; elsewhere in Morocco, Jews were attacked and killed in the streets in broad daylight. In 1897, synagogues were ransacked and Jews were murdered in Tripolitania.[27]




Small scale exodus had begun in many countries in the early decades of the 20th century, although the only substantial aliyah came from Yemen and Syria.[1] Prior to the creation of Israel in 1948, approximately 800,000 Jews were living in lands which now make up the Arab world (excluding Israel). Of these, just under two-thirds lived in the French-controlled Maghreb region,

(being French controlled they would have had better protections)

The reasons for the exodus included push factors, such as widespread State-endorsed harrassment, violence, theft and persecution, political instability, poverty and, in some cases, forced expulsion;






Notice throughout the above quotes the consistent mention of persecution, forced conversion, pay jizya or die.... I wonder where that idea came from....!?



You see, Didge is not that bright, he thinks that by posting a couple of selective quotes tells the whole story and forgets that people are able to read the links for themselves.....

Thanks Tommy you just proved again you do not understand you are actually backing my point.

The above proves that any persecution was few and far between, by selective rulers, where again there is no command in the quran to persecute people for no known reason, hence why you failed to understand the significance of Jews moving from persecution to countries that were under Muslim control.

So you offered up out of 1400 less than 10 events where Jews were persecuted, again out of 1400 years, where by your view they would be daily and not even exist.
Thanks that backs my point, it was rare and not prolific, you just proved me right again.
.
So as we have just seen, until the creation of Zionism and Israel, Jews received relatively little persecution and even rose to be prominent members in Islamic society, proving again your perception on this verse is wrong.
Not only that, the verse says fight, not kill, slay, persecute, all of which are actually stated else where, so the verse can only mean to fight those who evade their tax.

Sorry, I think you need to try harder, posting the evidence that backs my views clearly shows why you fail to even understand what you are talking about.
Te above evidence shows how little persecution there was to Jews, where the facts show they fled from persecution in the west. No Jew would move to a place where it would clearly know would persecute them, showing how absurd your view is Tommy.


I suggest you try again

It shows that Jews were routinely persecuted under Muslim rule even though they had been there for over a thousand years before they even existed.


Do you know what dhimmi status is?




Maybe you should try reading again....





Plus the fight non believers, force conversion, pay jizya or die was clearly in existence over many centuries....

No it does not show Jews were routinely persecuted.
You call less than 10 times of accounts of persecution over 1400 years routine?

And you question my ability to understand English?

That would be classed as rare, as if itwas routine you would see it daily throughout the history of Islam in every place Jews lived under Islamic law. That is not the case, even more so Jews moved there to avoid persecution, again showing why you failed to even comprehend why they would.

Sorry did you just ask me questions on something you just read on a website or got off smelly? Yes I m well aware of the concept called dhimmi.
Seriously, do you want to go down that road?
Where is this in the quran by the way?

You really need to understand English first and then understand your evidence just back me again.

You obviously cannot read......




First three bits I posted.....








By the time of the Muslim conquests of the 7th century, ancient Jewish communities had existed in many parts of the Middle East and North Africa since Antiquity. Jews under Islamic rule were given the status of dhimmi

In year 20 of the Muslim era, or the year 641 AD, Muhammad's successor the Caliph 'Umar decreed that Jews and Christians should be removed from all but the southern and eastern fringes of Arabia—a decree based on the (sometimes disputed) uttering of the Prophet: "Let there not be two religions in Arabia". The two populations in question were the Jews of the Khaybar oasis in the north and the Christians of Najran.[7][8] Only the Red Sea port of Jedda was permitted as a "religious quarantine area" and continued to have a small complement of Jewish merchants


Although life later improved under Muslim rulean interfaith utopia did not exist.[9]:58 Jewish people still experienced persecution. Under Islamic Rule, the Pact of Umar was introduced, which protected the Jews but also established them as inferior.[9]:59 Since the 11th century, there have been instances of pogroms against Jews.[12] Examples include the 1066 Granada massacre, the razing of the entire Jewish quarter in the Andalucian city of Granada.[13] In North Africa, there were cases of violence against Jews in the Middle Ages,[14] and in other Arab lands including Egypt,[15] Syria.[16] and Yemen[17] Jewish population was confined to segregated quarters, or mellahs, in Morocco beginning from the 15th century. In cities, a mellah was surrounded by a wall with a fortified gateway. In contrast, rural mellahs were separate villages inhabited solely by the Jews.[18] The Almohads, who had taken control of much of Islamic Iberia by 1172, were far more fundamentalist in outlook than the Almoravides, and they treated the dhimmis harshly. Jews and Christians were expelled from Morocco and Islamic Spain.[19] Faced with the choice of either death or conversion, some Jews, such as the family of Maimonides, fled south and east to the more tolerant Muslim lands, while others went northward to settle in the growing Christian kingdoms.[20][21] In 1465, Arab mobs in Fez slaughtered thousands of Jews, leaving only 11 alive, after a Jewish deputy vizier treated a Muslim woman in an offensive manner. The killings touched off a wave of similar massacres throughout Morocco






Routinely persecuted dodge, made to live as dhimmi.

I read it all Tommy, you again can only post at some points in time by some rulers, who persecuted Muslims, thus proving it was very much sporadic.
If it was routine, where is the daily evidence to prove this?
You have 1400 years to work off and can only come off with as seen isolated incidents until the rise of Zionism and the creation of Israel.

If you call that routine over 1400 years, you clearly need to go back to school.

karma again ha ha

Right catch you all later.

Bye

By the time of the Muslim conquests of the 7th century, ancient Jewish communities had existed in many parts of the Middle East and North Africa since Antiquity. Jews under Islamic rule were given the status of dhimmi

In year 20 of the Muslim era, or the year 641 AD, Muhammad's successor the Caliph 'Umar decreed that Jews and Christians should be removed from all but the southern and eastern fringes of Arabia—a decree based on the (sometimes disputed) uttering of the Prophet: "Let there not be two religions in Arabia". The two populations in question were the Jews of the Khaybar oasis in the north and the Christians of Najran.[7][8] Only the Red Sea port of Jedda was permitted as a "religious quarantine area" and continued to have a small complement of Jewish merchants


Although life later improved under Muslim rulean interfaith utopia did not exist.[9]:58 Jewish people still experienced persecution. Under Islamic Rule, the Pact of Umar was introduced, which protected the Jews but also established them as inferior





What bit of this do you not understand...???

In other words Tommy. they were forced to live under a religious apartheid ?????

victorisnotamused wrote:In other words Tommy. they were forced to live under a religious apartheid ?????

Which was a much better prospect than certain Christian rulers, where the choice was convert, leave or die.

Anyway I would say half like apartheid Victor, the Jizya was less than Muslims had to pay, which means non_Muslims benefit from not being a Muslim and many Jews actually rose to prominence under the Caliphate, because as seen it was only some select Sultans where you see sporadic persecution until Zionism and the creation of Israel.

Tommy also thinks sporadic examples of certain rulers and their persecutions based on their views , is 1400 continuous years of persecution. That i just plain silly

Muslims see all non Muslims as inferior and as subordinates to be dominated and fair game to be exploited in any way.

Tommy Monk wrote:Muslims see all non Muslims as inferior and as  subordinates to be dominated and fair game to be exploited in any way.

Where do you think the first racism can be found?
The bible, where Jews are elevated above all others