On Moderate Muslims

victorisnotamused wrote:

Fuzzy Zack wrote:In Islam you have a concept known as Ummah Wasitiyyah - or the society (ummah) of the 'justly balanced' - also known as the middle ground.

Justice is based on rationale (jurisprudence). Moderation is more subjective.

That is the difference.

what rationale (jurisprudence??? as you make it) is there in throwing homosexuals off cliffs? or crushing them under a wall  NONE

what rationale is there that prescribes beheading for apostasy NONE

what rationale is there that says there is no compulsion in islam, and in the same voice prevents christian (or other) activities? NONE

what ratioanle is there in stoning a woman to death "for not screaming louder" when she is raped NONE

what rational is there for stoning to death someone for adultery... NONE

what rational is there for refusing to allow a christian to bring a bible with him when visiting your country NONE

Yeah you do have to wonder if Islamic concepts of justice are so marvelous, then why are most Islamic countries still practice large amounts of inane, backwards practices in law. Turkey is the only one that comes to mind that doesn't and that is thanks to the secularization since the late Ottoman period and Ataturk- if Erdogan has his way they will fall back with the rest of the ME...

What is the "Islamic atrocity of 9/11?"

victorisnotamused wrote:

Fuzzy Zack wrote:In Islam you have a concept known as Ummah Wasitiyyah - or the society (ummah) of the 'justly balanced' - also known as the middle ground.

Justice is based on rationale (jurisprudence). Moderation is more subjective.

That is the difference.

what rationale (jurisprudence??? as you make it) is there in throwing homosexuals off cliffs? or crushing them under a wall  NONE

what rationale is there that prescribes beheading for apostasy NONE

what rationale is there that says there is no compulsion in islam, and in the same voice prevents christian (or other) activities? NONE

what ratioanle is there in stoning a woman to death "for not screaming louder" when she is raped NONE

what rational is there for stoning to death someone for adultery... NONE

what rational is there for refusing to allow a christian to bring a bible with him when visiting your country NONE

There is no justification in the Quran for any of this.

This is just your ignorance. Calm down.

Fuzzy Zack wrote:

victorisnotamused wrote:

what rationale (jurisprudence??? as you make it) is there in throwing homosexuals off cliffs? or crushing them under a wall  NONE

what rationale is there that prescribes beheading for apostasy NONE

what rationale is there that says there is no compulsion in islam, and in the same voice prevents christian (or other) activities? NONE

what ratioanle is there in stoning a woman to death "for not screaming louder" when she is raped NONE

what rational is there for stoning to death someone for adultery... NONE

what rational is there for refusing to allow a christian to bring a bible with him when visiting your country NONE

There is no justification in the Quran for any of this.

This is just your ignorance. Calm down.

But clearly many Muslims believe there is justification, which is the problem. Where your voice and views are being drowned out by theirs.

Brasidas wrote:

Fuzzy Zack wrote:

There is no justification in the Quran for any of this.

This is just your ignorance. Calm down.

But clearly many Muslims believe there is justification, which is the problem. Where your voice and views are being drowned out by theirs.

I don't feel like I'm drowning. This is the majority view.

Fuzzy Zack wrote:

Brasidas wrote:


But clearly many Muslims believe there is justification, which is the problem. Where your voice and views are being drowned out by theirs.

I don't feel like I'm drowning. This is the majority view.

Well the majority view is doing little to change the minority view, which is based in law in many Muslim countries.

Also when Egypt voted, many voted for religious conservatism, than they did any Liberal views, only Tunisia is standing out at the moment and that is down to secularism again.

Lone Wolf wrote:

Ben_Reilly wrote:

Actually that's only in cases of self-defense:



http://www.masjidtucson.org/submission/perspectives/striving/wars.html

TOMMY M. is nothing more than an uneducated fuckwit whose sole intention in regard to other nationalities and religions is to start fights and look to join the next crusades against Islam...

THOUGH, of course, being the spineless little maggot that he is, all of his fighting will be done from behind his keyboard, as we've come to expect on here..

(PATHETIC little no-brain twat showed his total ineptness and incompetence last weekend when celebrating his imagined "victory" against me ~ only problem there being that he was trying to credit me with certain points in his crowing abuse that, unfortunately for Tommy, others had made over in another thread.  JUST to prove his total lack of comprehension and analytical abilities in everything he reads.   NO DOUBT as usual, Tommy M.'s defence will be to claim "more twaddle" and "lying ****" against his detractors..).
TOMMY still remains the thickest numbskull on this forum !      

This is where you're both wrong, the fighting bit in this context is aimed at Muslims fighting with other Muslims.


While the instructions are clear to fight against non believers and force them to become Muslims, pay jizya and be persecuted or die.

Tommy, would you please either cite the quotes in which Muslims are instructed to instigate violence against believers, or if you can't, shut up about it and quit claiming otherwise?

Koran 9:29

Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

Fuzzy Zack wrote:

victorisnotamused wrote:

what rationale (jurisprudence??? as you make it) is there in throwing homosexuals off cliffs? or crushing them under a wall  NONE

what rationale is there that prescribes beheading for apostasy NONE

what rationale is there that says there is no compulsion in islam, and in the same voice prevents christian (or other) activities? NONE

what ratioanle is there in stoning a woman to death "for not screaming louder" when she is raped NONE

what rational is there for stoning to death someone for adultery... NONE

what rational is there for refusing to allow a christian to bring a bible with him when visiting your country NONE

There is no justification in the Quran for any of this.

This is just your ignorance. Calm down.

Oh fuzzy the appologist

i refer you to this quote from a post of didges earlier.....


The most convenient reaction to 9/11, which has been echoed every time terrorists showcase Islam as the motivation behind their butchery, has been to excommunicate the terrorists – claiming that the Islamist militants aren’t Muslims at all. The same reverberations have been resonating ever since ISIS has come to the fore, with leaders of the West, Barack Obama and David Cameron dutifully lip-synching to the chorus.

This takfir, or excommunication, has been as expedient as it has been precarious, because it allows the Muslim world to rid itself of any responsibility for the action of the terrorists that it nourishes. It also allows Muslims to conjure the aforementioned victim card when the obvious influence of Islam on Islamist terrorism is even hinted at. What this also beefs up is the resolve of the moderate Muslims, a lot of whom [a la Aslan-see above] do not reside within any tangible proximity of the ‘Muslim world’, in shrouding the most important fact in all the debate surrounding Islamism: that majority of the Muslim world supports the Islamist ideology even if they don’t back the ensuing terrorism.

In a PEW survey in April last year it was found that over 80% of Muslims from the Muslim world want Sharia law in their homeland – 84% in Pakistan. Now since the interpretation of Sharia varies, one has to dig deep to find out what exactly the Muslim world seeks.

76% of Pakistanis who support Sharia believe apostates should be killed, 89% believe adulterers should be stoned to death and 87% believe hands should be chopped off for theft. While numbers vary throughout the Muslim world, the extreme viewpoints form the comfortable majorities in most cases. Not to mention the fact that PEW did not include Saudi Arabia, Iran and Sudan in last year’s survey.

Even so, in another PEW survey conducted in July this year strong majorities all over the Muslim world expressed their apprehension regarding Islamist terrorism – including 66% Pakistanis. Now either the Muslim world has undergone a miraculous reformation in 15 months or it’s completely oblivious of the concept of cause and effect.

Tommy Monk wrote:Koran 9:29

Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

Anything to say about this Ben?

Zack regardless of your dismissals nearly every Muslim country continues to practice backward laws. They do so largely with public consent to such ideas. Vic also pointed out the sympathies many have toward some extreme ideology. You can't ignore the fact the majority of Muslim nations seem to contrast with your view- more likely you are the product of a liberal state; you are what Muslims in the backward states should aspire to- but at this point you do not speak for most.

Ben_Reilly wrote:Tommy, would you please either cite the quotes in which Muslims are instructed to instigate violence against believers, or if you can't, shut up about it and quit claiming otherwise?

Tommy Monk wrote:


Koran 9:29

Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.





Still nothing to say on this Ben....?



And before you try to say this is not happening, not Islamic, those who follow this are not proper Muslims or 'it's only a few' etc....



http://uk.reuters.com/article/2014/07/18/uk-iraq-security-christians-idUKKBN0FN29N20140718



And before you try to say that it's only ISIS who are doing this...



http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/sep/10/egypts-Muslim-brotherhood-convert-islam-or-pay-jiz/




And if you care to open your eyes a little bit you will see that this is also happening elsewhere too....

Tommy Monk wrote:

Tommy Monk wrote:Koran 9:29

Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

Anything to say about this Ben?

We've talked about this before, Tommy -- certainly the verb "fight" here is no more necessarily violent than the quote from Jesus, ""Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword." (Matthew 10:34)

You argued that obviously, Jesus was speaking metaphorically here. Most would agree, but why can't the Quran be metaphorical as well in the use of the verb "fight"? After all, we say that people "fight" for equal rights, it doesn't imply they're out committing violence. MLK was completely non-violent, yet plenty of people would say he "fought" for civil rights.

The context is completely aggressive and if you bothered to read the links then you would see that the options given are convert, pay jizya or die..... and I'm sure they don't mean die of old age or natural causes....



Maybe this other bit will help to clarify intent.....

"So when you meet those who disbelieve, strike [their] necks until, when you have inflicted slaughter upon them, then secure their bonds, and either [confer] favor afterwards or ransom [them] until the war lays down its burdens. That [is the command]. And if Allah had willed, He could have taken vengeance upon them [Himself], but [He ordered armed struggle] to test some of you by means of others. And those who are killed in the cause of Allah - never will He waste their deeds."



Or maybe this bit.....


"I am with you: give firmness to the Believers: I will instil terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them."

So? The Bible is full of passages where Almighty God wipes out entire nations because they're not already full of Israelites. Sorry, you're going to have to do a lot better if you're trying to prove this religion is uniquely violent.

Tommy all religions allow for violence, but when you try to argue religion it is embarrassing, allow others to debate what you know naff all about.

Qur'an 47:4 So, when you clash with the unbelieving Infidels in battle, smite their necks until you overpower them, killing and wounding many of them. At length, when you have thoroughly subdued them, bind them firmly, making (them) captives. Thereafter either generosity or ransom until the war lays down its burdens. Thus are you commanded by God to continue carrying out Jihad against the unbelieving infidels until they submit to Islam .

47:4 Therefore, when ye meet the Unbelievers in battle, smite at their necks; At length, when ye have thoroughly subdued them, bind a bond firmly (on them): thereafter (is the time for) either generosity or ransom: Until the war lays down its burdens. Thus (are ye commanded): but if it had been God's Will, He could certainly have exacted retribution from them (Himself); but (He lets you fight) in order to test you, some with others. But those who are slain in the Way of God,- He will never let their deeds be lost.

The context of this verse was when the Muslims were to fight their enemies for their very existence. After thirteen years of endurance and patience, the prophet and his companions had to leave their home town of Makkah and to emigrate to Madinah. When the people of Madinah had welcomed him there and he was accepted as a leader there, the Makkans became unhappy. They wanted to eliminate Muhammad and his religion; and so they sent their army to root out Islam. And the crucial battle took place in Badr. It was just before this that Muhammad received the revelation from God to fight:

{And fight in the way of Allah with those who fight with you, and do not exceed the limits, surely Allah does not love those who exceed the limits.} (Al-Baqarah 2:190)

This meant that the Prophet and his companions were not to start the fighting; but to defend themselves against aggressors. That was how fighting was ordained; but we must know that once we fight, we fight to defeat the aggressors, so that we can live without fear of molestation and invasion; so that we can live in peace; so that justice is done. Remember God does not command any one to start fighting; rather He permits people to fight in self defence or for the defence of those who are attacked unjustly. (SOURCE)


http://islamnewsroom.com/news-we-need/329-quranmisquotes#5

Deuteronomy 22:28-29

If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her.

Deuteronomy 22:23-24

If within the city a man comes upon a maiden who is betrothed, and has relations with her, you shall bring them both out of the gate of the city and there stone them to death: the girl because she did not cry out for help though she was in the city, and the man because he violated his neighbors wife.

"If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives." Leviticus 20:13

Ben_Reilly wrote:So? The Bible is full of passages where Almighty God wipes out entire nations because they're not already full of Israelites. Sorry, you're going to have to do a lot better if you're trying to prove this religion is uniquely violent.

Religion is violent by the very nature of those who do not believe will suffer eternal punishment. which is played out within the confines of the religious works.
Herem is a very strong case for religious violence found in the bible, though not all religion, you would be hard pressed with Jainism.

If a man commits adultery with another man's wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death. Leviticus 20:10

"Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him."" Deuteronomy 13:13-19

Run out of denials and excuses I see, like 'fight doesn't mean violence' bullshit, so now go to full on deflection mode instead!!!!


Most amusing!!!



Fact remains.... the Koran instructs Muslims to attack and fight non believers, force conversion to Islam, or pay jizya and be persecuted, or be killed!!!

Yes it is amusing when you try and debate religion Tommy, it may help if you actually have studied them which i clear you have not.

The Quran does allow for violence through defense, the deity clearly will punish non believers this is all true, but if as you claim it instructs Muslims to fight non-delivers for just being non believers, as any Christian, Jew, Yizadi etc in Muslim lands, would have been liquidated centuries ago, which is not the case.

Ben_Reilly wrote: If a man commits adultery with another man's wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death.  Leviticus 20:10

To me you are in fact arguing that religion does encourage and allow for violence Ben, which is my point, only some religious groups do not like Jainism, where the core principle is peace.
The Quran is littered throughout with this deity mocking, cursing, shaming, punishing, scourging, judging, burning for non-believers. The same can be said about the bible, even Jesus is meant to return at the head of an army and commit herem again.

Brasidas wrote:

Ben_Reilly wrote: If a man commits adultery with another man's wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death.  Leviticus 20:10

To me you are in fact arguing that religion does encourage and allow for violence Ben, which is my point, only some religious groups do not like Jainism, where the core principle is peace.
The Quran is littered throughout with this deity mocking, cursing, shaming, punishing, scourging, judging,  burning for non-believers. The same can be said about the bible, even Jesus is meant to return at the head of an army and commit herem again.  

Absolutely, and it's just as I said earlier -- it's the murderer's interpretation of the text that is to blame for the murder, since obviously many other people have read and believed in the Bible, Quran, etc., and have not gone off and killed somebody over it.

Just to add, I'm certainly not saying that a murderer's beliefs don't play a role -- just that they're quite obviously only one part of a much more complicated picture. Again, we don't see most Christians or Jews advocating to destroy entire towns of people who don't believe in their god, even though the Torah and the Bible are pretty clear that's what they're ordered to do.

Oh, and one more thing -- is anybody else reminded of this Beastie Boys classic in which they told their audience to straight-up murder any of their parents, teachers, etc. who wouldn't let them party?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eBShN8qT4lk

Now you're going on about a beastie boys record...!?




You wanted me to post the text or shut up so I posted the text....



Now as you don't want to believe these instruction are there and that it says to do exactly what Muslims ARE doing across Syria, Iraq, Egypt, Libya and elsewhere, you have gone into complete bullshit mode!!!



You have to start realising that what you've been brain washed to believe, that Islam is a religion of peace and those across Syria, Iraq, Egypt, Libya, Nigeria and other places who are acting in a barbaric and brutal way are just 'terrorists' and 'not proper Muslims' and how 'it's nothing to do with Islam' etc is a complete load of bollocks!!!



It's everything to do with Islam, as it is Islam!!!


Pure and simple and straight out of their guide book!!!!

Any idiot can post a verse from a book and then not even understand it, try reading the whole book, it may help.

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2014/07/18/uk-iraq-security-christians-idUKKBN0FN29N20140718



http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/sep/10/egypts-Muslim-brotherhood-convert-islam-or-pay-jiz/

I wonder where they get that idea from....!?

And?

Eilzel wrote:Zack regardless of your dismissals nearly every Muslim country continues to practice backward laws. They do so largely with public consent to such ideas. Vic also pointed out the sympathies many have toward some extreme ideology. You can't ignore the fact the majority of Muslim nations seem to contrast with your view- more likely you are the product of a liberal state; you are what Muslims in the backward states should aspire to- but at this point you do not speak for most.

Saudi Arabia for example, do you think they follow the Quran in every aspect of their laws?

If you said 'yes', then you'd be wrong.

Even they admit (at least to those who have read the Quran), many of their laws override Islam due to cultural sensitivities and customs.

That's the big joke, amongst the Muslim community. And why many Muslims do not lke the Saud family, etc. Many of these countries (Pakistan, another example) have tribal customs and a way of thinking - not Islamic at all.

I'm afraid, you're suffering from some cultural ignorance yourself.

Meanwhile in Africa, the Muslim fanatics have just detonated a bomb in a school yard and killed over 50 children who were trying to get an education, a suicide bomber a member of Boco fcuking Harem!

bbc news.

Brasidas wrote:And?

See no correlation there at all...!?



Even when the evidence is staring you full in The face you pretend you cannot see it.....

Tommy Monk wrote:

Brasidas wrote:And?

See no correlation there at all...!?



Even when the evidence is staring you full in The face you pretend you cannot see it.....

Let see if you can answer a simple question, when most of the Christian world held literal beliefs, all leaders took the view if a beseiged town refused to surrender, that by divine right and deuteronomy laws, they could put to the sword all citizens and allow the women to be raped.
Smilies is not going help your simpleton knowledge here

Why did they think they were justified by the Bible?
Were they justified by the bible?

This will help educate you.

More deflection....

Tommy Monk wrote:More deflection....

Yes we know you are.

Try again








Let see if you can answer a simple question, when most of the Christian world held literal beliefs, all leaders took the view if a beseiged town refused to surrender, that by divine right and deuteronomy laws, they could put to the sword all citizens and allow the women to be raped.
Smilies is not going help your simpleton knowledge here

Why did they think they were justified by the Bible?
Were they justified by the bible?

This will help educate you..

Tommy Monk wrote:

Brasidas wrote:And?

See no correlation there at all...!?



Even when the evidence is staring you full in The face you pretend you cannot see it.....

You could say exactly the same about you.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ma'alim_fi_al-Tariq

Educate yourself, for a change. Just a little.

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2014/07/18/uk-iraq-security-christians-idUKKBN0FN29N20140718



http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/sep/10/egypts-Muslim-brotherhood-convert-islam-or-pay-jiz/




Straight out of their guide book....


Koran 9:29

Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

Tommy Monk wrote:Now you're going on about a beastie boys record...!?




You wanted me to post the text or shut up so I posted the text....



Now as you don't want to believe these instruction are there and that it says to do exactly what Muslims ARE doing across Syria, Iraq, Egypt, Libya and elsewhere, you have gone into complete bullshit mode!!!



You have to start realising that what you've been brain washed to believe, that Islam is a religion of peace and those across Syria, Iraq, Egypt, Libya, Nigeria and other places who are acting in a barbaric and brutal way are just 'terrorists' and 'not proper Muslims' and how 'it's nothing to do with Islam' etc is a complete load of bollocks!!!



It's everything to do with Islam, as it is Islam!!!


Pure and simple and straight out of their guide book!!!!

You know, you're terrible at debate. Any average debater knows you actually address the points raised by the person you're debating against. I pointed out that "fighting" can have many different meanings and cited Christian verses which are far more violent than the one you cited from the Quran.

So now you just start repeating yourself. Why don't you address the points other people have made, rather than dismissing them without any explanation?

I have addressed the points, I clarified that fighting in The context absolutely meant violence and old testament stuff is not the subject of topic or debate.

It most certainly is, if you're arguing as I have been that religions are full of violence and that it's the person interpreting them at fault for taking someone's life, not the book they read.

You have as per usual avoided my questions Tommy, at least smelly had at least read the Quran, but you know naff all, let alone on any religion.

Let see if you can answer a simple question, when most of the Christian world held literal beliefs, all leaders took the view if a beseiged town refused to surrender, that by divine right and deuteronomy laws, they could put to the sword all citizens and allow the women to be raped.
Smilies is not going help your simpleton knowledge here

Why did they think they were justified by the Bible?
Were they justified by the bible?

This will help educate you...

More deflection......

Tommy Monk wrote:More deflection......

Yes we all know you are

Zack, I'm not just talking about Saudi Arabia. Iran gas backward laws, Egypt does, Pakistan does, UAE does, and for all they improve on the ME so do Indonesia and Malaysia. All Islamic nations with a strong Islamic ethos at state level. That isn't cultural ignorance but statement of fact. The SE Asian Muslim nations may be better than the ME but they are still suffering painful religious retardation in law.