Chip shop owner forced to remove a 'racist' sign boasting that his business now had 'English owners' after threats to burn it down

First topic message reminder :

A chip shop owner has removed a ‘racist’ banner boasting that the business now had ‘English owners’, after his predecessor received threats to burn it down.

Previous owner Paul Bradbury - who put the sign up at The Chippy on the Green in Padiham, Lancashire, after taking it over last August - has gone back to Liverpool with his wife Rachel after shutting up shop.  

The couple had put a banner outside which said ‘Under new management with English owners’ - but Mr Bradbury said that he received two threatening phone calls from people calling him racist. They left the shop and moved away from the area earlier this year - and new owner Sotos Orfanides has now adapted the sign to read ‘Under new management with English meals’.  He said: ‘I don’t think the original sign was racist, but there was a big thing about it being racist. No one is racist in this shop. They were English and they were serving some English food. ‘I changed the sign because people were calling and threatening to burn the shop down.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2629054/Chip-shop-owner-forced-remove-racist-sign-boasting-business-English-owners.html#ixzz31mKPa5L6

gerber wrote:How can Polish shops blatantly advertise Polish food only and owned by Poles ?

I've seen plenty of shops advertising Polish goods Gerber; THAT isn't the problem. I have never seen a shop explicitly advertising its Polish ownership.

No one is saying you cannot advertise the sale of 'Traditional English Food'; no one has said that AT ALL.

This is simply about the strange decision to advertise the ethnicity of the owners- I have never seen that anywhere.

Didge wrote:

Samhraí wrote:
Which isn't a valid reason to threat it like that.


I'm not seeing the problem because there should not be a problem.
If you're going to say that there isn't a distinction between English and non-English seeing as that's the point you say you're trying to make then what is stopping me from just claiming to be English, Didge?
The burden of proof is on you to prove he was being provocative.
"I don't like his opinion" isn't a valid point.

Then you cannot see how such a sign was made with intent to offend, because to many people it is racially distinguishing people in a country that is and should be seen as one.
Burden of proof, okay, how many shop owners place their ethnicity as the owners in shop windows?

You again are trying to excuse his intent, being as you ignore the fact who were the previous owners, thus the intent was to distinguish from the previous owners who were of Asian ethnicity though could well be as English born as he is. That is more proof of his intent

There is your proof, now you are avoiding the point it was made to inflame a community

That isn't proof that it was done with malicious intent or with intent to provoke people.
It could very well have been just innocent pride that you are viewing as something else because it fits your preconceptions.
You could argue it was stupid to do that maybe but you can't prove it was intentionally malicious or provocative.

If a Chinese person took over a Chinese takeway and put up a sign to say it was owned by Chinese people, I would just take that to mean that they were cooking authentic Chinese food.

Samhraí wrote:

Didge wrote:

Then you cannot see how such a sign was made with intent to offend, because to many people it is racially distinguishing people in a country that is and should be seen as one.
Burden of proof, okay, how many shop owners place their ethnicity as the owners in shop windows?

You again are trying to excuse his intent, being as you ignore the fact who were the previous owners, thus the intent was to distinguish from the previous owners who were of Asian ethnicity though could well be as English born as he is. That is more proof of his intent

There is your proof, now you are avoiding the point it was made to inflame a community

That isn't proof that it was done with malicious intent or with intent to provoke people.
It could very well have been just innocent pride that you are viewing as something else because it fits your preconceptions.
You could argue it was stupid to do that maybe but you can't prove it was intentionally malicious or provocative.

Really again what other business do this Tea?
You avoided this point and we only have his claim he received threats, again which is hearsay.
You could argue it was done stupidly, but then I could argue people are also gullible to what the owner himself is claiming of which your defense is based upon.

Didge wrote:

Samhraí wrote:

Are you saying nobody made threats and it is all benign complaints now?

Pedantic point, as never claimed that as already stated,

And I never claimed that they were all threats either so I don't see your point here.

Didge wrote:
you are trying to avoid my main points by stubbornly sticking to the point the vast majority made complaints and not threats, you though center on those who made threats, which also proves my point on how it inflamed people, which you still cannot see.

What's your main point then that I have somehow been avoiding?

Didge wrote:
No physical threats are ever right, but it backs evidence to my point how the sign was deigned to inflame

If a television falls and kills someone that does not mean it's designed to kill someone.
Your point that it pissed some people off is not proof that it was designed to piss people off.

Samhraí wrote:
And I never claimed that they were all threats either so I don't see your point here.

If a television falls and kills someone that does not mean it's designed to kill someone.
Your point that it pissed some people off is not proof that it was designed to piss people off.

Really,. so we know it has pissed people off thus being as it has pissed people off it was designed to piss most people off, because nobody puts a sign in their shop to state who owns it based upon ethnicity?
Again I do not buy his story, you buy his story and that is the difference

Didge wrote:

Samhraí wrote:

That isn't proof that it was done with malicious intent or with intent to provoke people.
It could very well have been just innocent pride that you are viewing as something else because it fits your preconceptions.
You could argue it was stupid to do that maybe but you can't prove it was intentionally malicious or provocative.

Really again what other business do this Tea?

Being in the minority is not proof that you're intentionally trying to be provocative or malicious.

Didge wrote:
You avoided this point and we only have his claim he received threats, again which is hearsay.
You could argue it was done stupidly, but then I could argue people are also gullible to what the owner himself is claiming of which your defense is based upon.

http://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/grasping+at+straws

Samhraí wrote:
Being in the minority is not proof that you're intentionally trying to be provocative or malicious.
[

http://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/grasping+at+straws

Being as this did inflame people something you ignore, you are going off his reasons, thus taking his view ignoring that nobody else does this, as what relevance do you need to place your ethnicity as the owner in the first place, something you have failed to answer at each turn.

Didge wrote:

Samhraí wrote:
And I never claimed that they were all threats either so I don't see your point here.

If a television falls and kills someone that does not mean it's designed to kill someone.
Your point that it pissed some people off is not proof that it was designed to piss people off.

Really,. so we know it has pissed people off thus being as it has pissed people off it was designed to piss most people off, because nobody puts a sign in their shop to state who owns it based upon ethnicity?

I've seen signs like "Irish owned" before but no-one really gives a fuck over here.
I still don't see how something pissing people off is proof that it's designed to piss something off.

Didge wrote:
Again I do not buy his story, you buy his story and that is the difference  

If you're just going to throw around "He's lying" as your main point then there's no point in arguing this as neither of us can prove that's true or untrue.

Didge wrote:

Samhraí wrote:
Being in the minority is not proof that you're intentionally trying to be provocative or malicious.
[

http://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/grasping+at+straws

Being as this did inflame people something you ignore, you are going off his reasons, thus taking his view ignoring that nobody else does this, as what relevance do you need to place your ethnicity as the owner in the first place, something you have failed to answer at each turn.

Prove it.

But anyway I have to go for a bit so expect any replies to be late.
Ciao

[quote="Samhraí"]
I've seen signs like "Irish owned" before but no-one really gives a fuck over here.
I still don't see how something pissing people off is proof that it's designed to piss something off.

[quote]


I have not see one shop in this country that states Irish owned, we are not talking about Ireland, where there is not the tension that is seen in this country with racism. So now who is using a poor argument?

No I am going off the back he placed a sign in his window that did not warrant him doing so in the first place with again you not backing a valid view for him to do so, where as seen there is already racial tension within an area, something you neglect at every turn

Samhraí wrote:

Didge wrote:

Being as this did inflame people something you ignore, you are going off his reasons, thus taking his view ignoring that nobody else does this, as what relevance do you need to place your ethnicity as the owner in the first place, something you have failed to answer at each turn.

Prove it.

I just have, you need to show me others that do, burden on you mate

Samhraí wrote:But anyway I have to go for a bit so expect any replies to be late.
Ciao

Expect mine tomorrow

All the best

I will give you a big clue as well before I go to his intent Tea:


[i]‘People want to know they are going to be served by somebody English. People have said to us that they are glad somebody English is serving them and that the sign made them want to come in

They’ve never had anyone in the shop before. We are advertising that we are English.
'You wouldn’t want your fish and chips served to you by someone Turkish, or from wherever, because it wouldn’t be as good a recipe as it would be from somebody English.



That backs all along what I was saying, he even shows it is over what he perceives as who is English.
Recipe for chips?
Come on Tea, that is blatant racism, why would I not want chips served to me from someone of Turkish ethnicity?
Is he saying only people of English ethnicity can cook English traditional foods?

Sorry the intent is there in his own words, this was about his racial views.

I don't think there's anything wrong with English people claiming they can cook better chips than anyone else. It might not be true of course, but that's not the point.   

Raggamuffin wrote:I don't think there's anything wrong with English people claiming they can cook better chips than anyone else. It might not be true of course, but that's not the point.   

He said people do not want to have their food cooked by people of different ethnicity, really?
Maybe only people that have poor racial views, he is also claiming only English people can cook such food, that is racism plain and simple.

can't see the problem if he can't have his opinion then it proves there is no freedom of speech, who cares what he said its just stupid people overreacting .

Vicar of Dibley wrote:can't see the problem if he can't have his opinion then it proves there is no freedom of speech, who cares what he said its just stupid people overreacting .

You cannot see a problem with racism?

Interesting, why is that?

The chippy we use and it not the closest to home is owned and run by three Turkish brothers. They have been for a long time. Best around and the kebabs are to die for according to those that eat them. One of the cleanest take aways I have ever seen.

All cooked to order.

English straight and proud. I am not diverting I was using an analogy. Forgive me liberal minded holier than thou folk for having an opinion that does not concur with yours.

BTW I do think your intolerance has grown Eilzel and as someone who posted above so crudely but succinctly puts it you are whiny little shits.

Alright said Fred wrote:English straight and proud.  I am not diverting I was using an analogy. Forgive me liberal minded holier than thou folk for having an opinion that does not concur with yours.

BTW I do think your intolerance has grown Eilzel and as someone who posted above so crudely but succinctly puts it you are whiny little shits.

Please do grow up and get over your infantile grudges.
You are the one that has the real beef with people having a different view to you, as Eilzel is one of the nicest posters here, which many will back such a view and it is thus you being intolerant of his views more than the other way around.

It makes me laugh when people go off free speech, as this free speech is only what is in regards to what they say and not what others say. Nobody even stops you having an opinion, but you will get shown for if your opinions are poor and lack any common sense

Didge wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:I don't think there's anything wrong with English people claiming they can cook better chips than anyone else. It might not be true of course, but that's not the point.   

He said people do not want to have their food cooked by people of different ethnicity, really?
Maybe only people that have poor racial views, he is also claiming only English people can cook such food, that is racism plain and simple.

It's not racist - don't be daft. If someone from India said that only Indian people can cook proper curry, I wouldn't think they were being racist. I might disagree, but I wouldn't take offence.

Raggamuffin wrote:

Didge wrote:


He said people do not want to have their food cooked by people of different ethnicity, really?
Maybe only people that have poor racial views, he is also claiming only English people can cook such food, that is racism plain and simple.

It's not racist - don't be daft. If someone from India said that only Indian people can cook proper curry, I wouldn't think they were being racist. I might disagree, but I wouldn't take offence.

Yes you clearly do not understand racism, so you are saying that to say only English should play football  and English people would not want to play football with someone not English because the game was invented here?

Take your time.

I suggest you understand racism before you reply

didge you are a racist to the English get a grip

Didge wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:

It's not racist - don't be daft. If someone from India said that only Indian people can cook proper curry, I wouldn't think they were being racist. I might disagree, but I wouldn't take offence.

Yes you clearly do not understand racism, so you are saying that to say only English should play football  and English people would not want to play football with someone not English because the game was invented here?

Take your time.

I suggest you understand racism before you reply

I'm saying you take things far too seriously.   

Vicar of Dibley wrote:didge you are a racist to the English get a grip

How is that when I am English?
I do not state the English people are all bad, many are great, sadly we do have some real ignorant ones who are racist, which sadly you poorly try to excuse .
I have advocated many times we are all biologically one race, that is not being racist at all
Please show anywhere that I have been racist?

Put your money where your mouth is

If not I will await your apology

Raggamuffin wrote:

Didge wrote:

Yes you clearly do not understand racism, so you are saying that to say only English should play football  and English people would not want to play football with someone not English because the game was invented here?

Take your time.

I suggest you understand racism before you reply

I'm saying you take things far too seriously.   

Nothing to do with serious, is about understanding what is racism and what is not racism, clearly you do not understand the difference, but luckily I do.

 ::D:: 

Didge wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:

I'm saying you take things far too seriously.   

Nothing to do with serious, is about understanding what is racism and what is not racism, clearly you do not understand the difference, but luckily I do.

 ::D:: 

I'm not sure I care very much. I'm bored with the word - it's all over this forum in most threads.

Have the new owners of the chippie explained why they felt the need to put that sign in the chip shop window or has anyone on here offered a good reason why they thought they needed to?

Didge wrote:

Vicar of Dibley wrote:didge you are a racist to the English get a grip

How is that when I am English?
I do not state the English people are all bad, many are great, sadly we do have some real ignorant ones who are racist, which sadly you poorly try to excuse .
I have advocated many times we are all biologically one race, that is not being racist at all
Please show anywhere that I have been racist?

Put your money where your mouth is

If not I will await your apology

you best sit back in an easy chair with a box of popcorn then   

you are racist , think about what you said about the Englishman who believes he can cook fish and chips better than anyone else . Your racist .

Vicar of Dibley wrote:

Didge wrote:

How is that when I am English?
I do not state the English people are all bad, many are great, sadly we do have some real ignorant ones who are racist, which sadly you poorly try to excuse .
I have advocated many times we are all biologically one race, that is not being racist at all
Please show anywhere that I have been racist?

Put your money where your mouth is

If not I will await your apology

you best sit back in an easy chair with a box of popcorn then   

you are racist , think about what you said about the Englishman who believes he can cook fish and chips better than anyone else . Your racist .

Dying to see what I said was racist, am all ears?

As I say, point it out, or more likely you are too afraid to end up with more egg on your face

Good luck and or apologise

 ::D:: 

Raggamuffin wrote:

Didge wrote:

Nothing to do with serious, is about understanding what is racism and what is not racism, clearly you do not understand the difference, but luckily I do.

 ::D:: 

I'm not sure I care very much. I'm bored with the word - it's all over this forum in most threads.

Tell that to the victims of racism, because I can assure you they are bored with it too

Just did didge no apology needed  ::D::  

Vicar of Dibley wrote:Just did didge no apology needed  ::D::  

Oh dear poor Dibs running away from her claim ha ha ha

Let me know when you can point out anything I stated was racist. Stating think about what I said is not pointing out but you making an assumption.

In your own time

work it out didge i tried to explain it twice .

In your own time of course  ::D:: 

Didge wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:

I'm not sure I care very much. I'm bored with the word - it's all over this forum in most threads.

Tell that to the victims of racism, because I can assure you they are bored with it too

I don't know any.

Come on Dibs, I know your hubby is sat next to you, surely the both of you can post your evidence?

 ::D:: 

Raggamuffin wrote:

Didge wrote:

Tell that to the victims of racism, because I can assure you they are bored with it too

I don't know any.

Maybe prudent if you did to understand, as I know people who are victims of racism and often daily, one such friend who is English born of Indian descent, who speaks with a posh English accent, educated at Oxford, is often called a Paki, just one of many examples and I see the affect it has on him, where he has people using derogatory language against him because of his looks

Didge wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:

I don't know any.

Maybe prudent if you did to understand, as I know people who are victims of racism and often daily, one such friend who is English born of Indian descent, who speaks with a posh English accent, educated at Oxford, is often called a Paki, just one of many examples and I see the affect it has on him, where he has people using derogatory language against him because of his looks

Can't be arsed.

Raggamuffin wrote:

Didge wrote:

Maybe prudent if you did to understand, as I know people who are victims of racism and often daily, one such friend who is English born of Indian descent, who speaks with a posh English accent, educated at Oxford, is often called a Paki, just one of many examples and I see the affect it has on him, where he has people using derogatory language against him because of his looks

Can't be arsed.

Shame really, as at least you would understand how damaging racism is or just read some history, you will see all the racism you will ever need to see by reading about the Holocaust

On that I wish you luck

Didge wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:

Can't be arsed.

Shame really, as at least you would understand how damaging racism is or just read some history, you will see all the racism you will ever need to see by reading about the Holocaust

On that I wish you luck

Whatever.

Raggamuffin wrote:

Didge wrote:


Shame really, as at least you would understand how damaging racism is or just read some history, you will see all the racism you will ever need to see by reading about the Holocaust

On that I wish you luck

Whatever.

Ignorance is bliss I guess

Didge wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:

Whatever.

Ignorance is bliss I guess

You should know.

Well as you do not understand racism and have just proven so, then clearly ignorance on racism is something you have

Didge wrote:Well as you do not understand racism and have just proven so, then clearly ignorance on racism is something you have

I just can't be bothered to get all excited about it. One spends years thinking about this stuff, and wondering how it will be solved, and then you realise that it probably won't, or that people will see racism everywhere regardless, so I just can't be bothered any more.

Raggamuffin wrote:

Didge wrote:Well as you do not understand racism and have just proven so, then clearly ignorance on racism is something you have

I just can't be bothered to get all excited about it. One spends years thinking about this stuff, and wondering how it will be solved, and then you realise that it probably won't, or that people will see racism everywhere regardless, so I just can't be bothered any more.

Well I suggest again you talk to people who have been victims of racism, as then you might understand, and until you do, you are not in a position to even make such a view, because you are ignorant of the affect of racism. That does not mean you are stupid yourself but lack any knowledge of racism and its affects.
As seen today many of our youth are growing up without racism, that is a good start, you do not give up on something because you yourself hold negative views it cannot be resolved

Didge wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:

I just can't be bothered to get all excited about it. One spends years thinking about this stuff, and wondering how it will be solved, and then you realise that it probably won't, or that people will see racism everywhere regardless, so I just can't be bothered any more.

Well I suggest again you talk to people who have been victims of racism, as then you might understand, and until you do, you are not in a position to even make such a view, because you are ignorant of the affect of racism. That does not mean you are stupid yourself but lack any knowledge of racism and its affects.
As seen today many of our youth are growing up without racism, that is a good start, you do not give up on something because you yourself hold negative views it cannot be resolved

I just don't care. I'm sick of hearing about it.

Raggamuffin wrote:

Didge wrote:


Well I suggest again you talk to people who have been victims of racism, as then you might understand, and until you do, you are not in a position to even make such a view, because you are ignorant of the affect of racism. That does not mean you are stupid yourself but lack any knowledge of racism and its affects.
As seen today many of our youth are growing up without racism, that is a good start, you do not give up on something because you yourself hold negative views it cannot be resolved

I just don't care. I'm sick of hearing about it.

Then do not comment on it it is as simple as that, as others are interested in talking about it, show some respect to the people that do, of which it does matter to them

Didge wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:

I just don't care. I'm sick of hearing about it.

Then do not comment on it it is as simple as that, as others are interested in talking about it, show some respect to the people that do, of which it does matter to them

My point is that it's such a trivial thing to get worked up about. The real crime is the threats. I gather that the owner didn't want the police to follow them up - shame really.