Islamoprejudice & Anti-Semitism:

First topic message reminder :

ANTI-SEMITIC PROPAGANDA

Anti-Semitic propaganda maintained that:


—all Jews were responsible for the act of any Jew, e.g. “The murder of Ernst vom Rath did not slow legal measures aimed at solving the Jewish Problem, but rather sped them up. The Jews living in Germany had to pay a fine of a billion marks to discourage them from repeating the cowardly murder.” **

— Judaism was not a religion. “Argument 1: “You say that religion is a private matter. But you fight against the Jewish religion!” Counterargument: “Actually, the Jewish religion is nothing other than a doctrine to preserve the Jewish race.” (Adolf Hitler). “In resisting all government attempts to nationalize them, the Jews build a state within the state (Count Helmuth von Moltke). “To call this state a ‘religion’ was one of the cleverest tricks ever invented.” (Adolf Hitler). “From this first lie that Jewry is a religion, not a race, further lies inevitably follow.” (Adolf Hitler).”  **

— there was an International Jewish conspiracy to influence and then control governments, media,  the economy, etc.  **

— the Jews hated all non-Jews and they wanted to destroy the Gentiles and dominate the world **  Further “Whether or not there is an organized Jewish government recognized by all the Jews is less important that the fact that there is a unified and conscious Jewish desire for world power. This is proved by a variety of political events that are taking place in plain sight today.”  **

— due to inbreeding, Jews had more negative characteristics and passed on these negative characteristics to the next generation.  **

— a war against Judaism was a war against the devil **

— by distortions of the Torah and Talmud they claimed that Judaism teaches hatred **

— “The goal of the Jew is to make himself the ruler of humanity. Wherever he comes, he destroys works of culture. He is not a creative spirit, rather a destructive spirit.”  **  “The struggle for world domination will be fought entirely between us, between Germans and Jews.  All else is facade and illusion. Behind England stands Israel, and behind France, and behind the United States.  Even when we have driven the Jew out of Germany, he remains our world enemy.”  Adolf Hitler **

— “Nearly all major inventions were made by Aryans.”  The Jews had no real creativity **   “Wherever Jewry has appeared, it has never built anything. It has always and everywhere destroyed or torn down, sucking others dry to fill itself. From the days of the Romans to our day, Jewry in every century, in every people, was and remained a foreign body, a destroyer of real and ideal values, a denier of any upward progress, a plague for body and soul. It sneaks in through deceit and treachery, trickery and slyness, murder and assault, understanding how to establish itself.”  **

— a good Jew could not be a good German, that it was impossible for a Jew to honestly say “I am a “good German” and a “decent Jew”! Only a Jew has the insolence to make such a claim. I answer it only to reach the public and finally dispatch the absurd notion of the “decent Jew.” The fable of the “decent Jew” is not a German fable that has been handed down by our people and therefore something with educational value, but rather it is a shameless lie designed to lull the host people to sleep and appeal to hysterical weaklings.”  **  And further “And you think you can be a “good German”! True, you do speak German, just as your racial comrades in other countries speak English, French, Spanish, and Polish, but you are no more a German than they are Englishmen, Frenchmen, Spaniards, or Poles, since Jews are a foreign body in every people.” **

—  “Jewish law enjoins or permits Jews to murder non-Jews whenever feasible” **

—  “Jews are permitted to lie without moral or religious compunction” **

—  “Judaism condones the sexual molestation of young girls” ** “The Jewish youth lies in wait for hours on end….spying on the unsuspicious German girl he plans to seduce….he wants to contaminate her blood and remove her from the bosom of her own people. The Jew hates the white race and wants to lower its cultural level so that the Jews might dominate.” - Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf **

—  there was no way to tell the true nature of Jews as they presented a false face. **

—  Jews were uniquely violent and untrustworthy compared to all the other peoples of the world. **

— Jews could not serve loyally in the military of Germany, and they were removed. **

— anti-Semitism was a reasonable response to a clear and present danger.  **  If Jews raised the issue of anti-Semitism they were doing it for devious reasons.  The Jewish people, once only tolerated, knew how to raise a hue and cry about discrimination and persecution, winning the sympathy of the world for the “poor Jews.” They increasingly infiltrated deep within our national organism, growing to have power over every single area of our national life. **

— there was a “Jewish problem” and that any measures taken against the Jews were reasonable and defensive.  **

— Jews are a “disease” infecting any nation they inhabit.  “For us, it is a problem of whether our nation can ever recover its health, whether the Jewish spirit can ever really be eradicated.  Don’t be misled into thinking you can fight a disease without killing the carrier, without destroying the bacillus.  Don’t think you can fight racial tuberculosis without taking care to rid the nation of the carrier of that racial tuberculosis.  This Jewish contamination will not subside, this poisoning of the nation will not end, until the carrier himself, the Jew, has been banished from our midst.”  Adolph Hitler **  “Each Jew individually, and Jewry as a whole, is without a home. Jewry undermines every people and every state that it infiltrates. It feeds as a parasite and a culture-killing worm in the host people. It grows and grows like weeds in the state, the community, and the family and infests the blood of humanity everywhere.  In brief, that is the pestilential nature of Jewry, against which every people, every state, every nation must, should, and wants to defend itself if it does not want to be the victim of this bloody plague.”  **







ANTI-Muslim/ISLAMOPHOBIC PROPAGANDA


“Islam constitutes a threat to the world at large.”  Robert Spencer, AFDI, SIOA, SION

When Shi’ite Muslims were persecuted by Sunnis, they developed the doctrine of taqiyya, or concealment: They could lie about what they believed, denying aspects of their faith that were offensive to Sunnis…Closely related to this is the doctrine of kitman, or mental reservation, which is telling the truth, but not the whole truth, with an intention to mislead…Remember that the next time you see a Muslim spokesman on television professing his friendship with non-Muslim Americans and his loyalty to the United States. Of course, he may be telling the truth–but he may not be telling the whole truth or he may be just lying.  Robert Spencer, AFDI, SIOA, SION

There are “many elements of traditional and mainstream Islam that are at variance with our system of government, our Constitution, and our entire way of life.”  Robert Spencer, AFDI, SIOA, SION

“There is no reliable way to distinguish a “moderate” Muslim who rejects the jihad ideology and Islamic supremacism from a “radical” Muslim who holds such ideas, even if he isn’t acting upon them at the moment.”  Robert Spencer, AFDI, SIOA, SION

“The misbegotten term “Islamo-fascism” is wholly redundant: Islam itself is a kind of fascism that achieves its full and proper form only when it assumes the powers of the state.” Robert Spencer,AFDI, SIOA, SION  

“There is no distinction in the American Muslim community between peaceful Muslims and jihadists.” Robert Spencer, AFDI, SIOA, SION

“(Islam) is the only major world religion with a developed doctrine and tradition of warfare against unbelievers.”  Robert Spencer, AFDI, SIOA, SION

“Islam is of the devil” Rev. Terry Jones

“Islam is evil” Rev. Franklin Graham

“There is no escaping the unfortunate fact that Muslim government employees in law enforcement, the military and the diplomatic corps need to be watched for connections to terrorism.”  Rev. Franklin Graham

“Nearly all (emphasis added) of the Islamic organizations in the United States that define themselves as religiously or culturally Muslim in character have, today, been totally captured or dominated by radical fundamentalist elements…”  Steven Emerson

“U.S. Muslims are strategically aligning with LGBT people as part of their jihadist campaign to subjugate the West.”  Joseph Farrah, WND

”Devout Muslims should be prohibited from military service. Would Patton have recruited Nazis into his army?”  Pamela Geller, AFDI, SIOA, SION

Good Muslims lie to advance Islam, It’s the law. Atlas readers often hear me refer to taqiya - lies to advance Islam.” Pamela Geller, AFDI, SIOA, SION

I believe that “Al-Qaeda is a manifestation of devout Islam ... It is Islam.”  Pamela Geller, AFDI, SIOA, SION

“Arabic is not just another language like French or Italian, it is the spearhead of an ideological project that is deeply opposed to the United States.”  Pamela Geller, AFDI, SIOA, SION

I believe that “Hitler WAS inspired by Islam”  Pamela Geller, AFDI,SIOA, SION

“The ability to enjoy and produce knowledge and abstract thinking is simply lower in the Islamic world.”  Nicolai Sennels

One significant conclusion of my research was that having been raised in a Muslim environment – with Muslim parents and traditions – includes the risk of developing certain antisocial patterns.  Nicolai Sennels

As in many other nauseating situations, Islamonausea is a normal and natural reaction to something abnormal, not vice versa.  The nausea reflex is innate, and it is biologically natural and healthy to experience emotional and bodily discomfort with anything that is unpleasant, unhealthy or harmful.  ... The word Islamonausea can be used to describe a feeling of nausea, disgust, displeasure, discomfort or aversion that arises by itself when encountering Islam or Islamic culture, or whatever or whoever represents it. Nicolai Sennels

“Racism is the lowest form of human stupidity, but Islamophobia is the height of common sense.”  [SIOE motto]

“I would like to feel all warm and fuzzy and embrace the moderate Muslim/ meme but they show no evidence of their existence - not in any real number anyway. The only voices of reason in the Muslim world are lapsed Muslims or apostates.  Pamela Geller, AFDI, SIOA, SION

“It’s the Muslims who are dragging the rest of the world with them, in their genocidal dreams of annihilating goodness, creativity, production, inventiveness, benevolence, charity, medicine, technology, and all of the gifts of the Jews.  Our goodness makes them ill.”  Pamela Geller, AFDI, SIOA, SION

I believe that “Islam is a mental illness”.  Pamela Geller, AFDI, SIOA, SION

“The artifacts featured in this exhibit are stolen. Period. Stolen from the cultures conquered and Islamized, and the lands appropriated by the Muslims. The Met is passing off this stolen intellectual property as Islamic. It isn’t.”  Pamela Geller, AFDI, SIOA, SION

I believe that Islam is “the most insidious doctrine of hate. Islam can’t be reformed, but it can be eradicated. It can’t be molded, but it can be smashed.”  Ali Sina, SION

“We do not want to reform Islam. We want to eradicate it. Just as cancer cannot be reformed and the only way to cure the patient is to eradicate it, Islam cant be reformed either and it must be eradicated for the world to be saved.”  Ali Sina, FMU, SION

I believe that “Islam, like fascism, appeals to people with low self esteem and low intelligence.  Ali Sina, FMU, SION

I believe that “Every “moderate” Muslim is a potential terrorist.” Ali Sina, FMU, SION

I believe that “On the so-called Global War on Terrorism, GWOT, we have been quite clear along with a few other resolute souls. This should be a WAR AGAINST Islam and all Muslim faithful…At a practical level, this means that Shari’a and Islamic law are immediately outlawed. Any Muslim in America who adopts historical and traditional Shari’a will be subject to deportation. Mosques which adhere to Islamic law will be shut down permanently. No self-described or practicing Muslim, irrespective of his or her declarations to the contrary, will be allowed to immigrate to this country…” David Yerushalmi, SANE

I believe that “Muslim civilization is at war with Judeo-Christian civilization…The Muslim peoples, those committed to Islam as we know it today, are our enemies.”  David Yerushalmi, SANE

“We love you Muslims because you are humans like us. We are all related to each other. We are all limbs of the body of mankind. But you are diseased. You are infected by a deadly cult that threatens our lives. Your humanity is destroyed. Like a limb infected by flesh eating disease, now you are a threat to the rest of mankind. We will do everything to save you, to make you see your folly, and to make you understand that you are victims of a gigantic lie, so you leave this lie, stop hating mankind and plotting for its destruction and it domination. But if all efforts fail and if you become a threat to our lives and the lives of our children, we must amputate you.”  Ali Sina, FMU, SION

There is a need for an “old fashioned war with wholesale slaughter including indiscriminate death of innocents and babes. down to the last Muslim, if necessary.”  John Joseph Jay, AFDI

The only good Muslim is a dead Muslim.  ...  The Islamofeces cockroaches are on the march and if we do not kill them all, they shall kill us.  George M. Weinert V

“I’ve got an idea, let’s kill all Muslims.”  Jay Severin

“Rot in hell, Osama bin Laden.  One down, 1.8 billion to go ... many of ‘em inside U.S. borders, with the U.S. government at all levels kissing their asses.”  Debbie Schlussel

“I do not believe that our country can truly fulfill its divine purpose until we understand America was founded, in part, with the intention of seeing this false religion destroyed.”  Rev. Rod Parsley

“Absolutely. If a Muslim who has—who is—a practicing Muslim who believes the word of the Koran to be the word of Allah, who abides by Islam, who goes to mosque and prays every Friday, who prays five times a day—this practicing Muslim, who believes in the teachings of the Koran, cannot be a loyal citizen to the United States of America.”  Brigitte Gabrie, ACT for Americal

Westerners “don’t want to judge anybody based on their [religion].  [But] Islam is not a religion. Islam is a very dangerous political ideology…. There is no such thing as radical Islam and regular Islam or spiritual Islam….There is only one Islam.”  Wafa Sultan, FMU

“What has the Arab world contributed except terror? The theocratic, repressive Arabic states do no significant science, no significant arts and culture.”  “Osama bin Laden is a very good Muslim - a model one, in fact, and one of the most devout in the 1400 years of Islam.”  David Horowitz, Freedom Center

“Sure America’s First Amendment protects freedom of religion. But the Founding Fathers and signatories of the Constitution undoubtedly would not have included rights in it for members of a religion that demands the destruction, persecution and invasion of the United States of America -and at best, the establishment of a shadow Constitution parallel to the American one, namely Islamic sharia law. No, that most certainly was not in the minds of America’s Founding Fathers.”  Eliana Benador

“America and the West are doomed to failure in this war unless they stand up and identify the real enemy: Islam.”  Brigitte Gabriel, ACT for America

“We are in a war against a political, theocratic, authoritarian ideology and it is called Islam!”  Rep. Allen West, (R-FL)

“The Muslim Representative from Minnesota was elected by the voters of that district and if American citizens don’t wake up and adopt the Virgil Goode position on immigration there will likely be many more Muslims elected to office and demanding the use of the Koran.”  Rep. Virgil H. Goode, Jr

“There are too many mosques in this country.”  -  “85 percent of American Muslim community leaders are an enemy living amongst us”  -  “no (American) Muslims cooperate in the war on terror”.  -  “I would say, you could say that 80-85 percent of mosques in this country are controlled by Islamic fundamentalists … Those who are in control.  The average Muslim, no, they are loyal, but they don’t work, they don’t come forward, they don’t tell the police.”  Rep. Peter King

“We should invade their countries, kill their leaders and convert them to Christianity.”  Ann Coulter

Taught military personnel that they should take a “war on Islam” “to the civilian population wherever necessary,” which he likened to the bombardment of Dresden and nuclear destruction of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.  Army Lt. Col. Matthew A. Dooley

So once one acknowledges the obvious, that there is fascistic behavior among a core of Muslims — specifically, a cult of violence and the wanton use of physical force to impose an ideology on others — the term “Islamo-Fascism” is entirely appropriate.  Dennis Prager

We would be looked upon as uncouth for suggesting that the only language all Muslims understand is that of blood and death and only death can stop them. As long as they survive on this planet, they will be a destabilizing influence and never allow civilized people to breathe freely. There is no hope of transforming the Muslims into a good peace-loving and noble community. As long as a Muslim lives, killing infidels comes to him/her as naturally as does attacking its prey comes to a wild and hungry beast. Muslims are brainwashed to do this by the Quran - the instruction manual of hate and terror. They can never be transformed into good citizens. And so the only good Muslim is a dead Muslim. This is the harsh reality. And so we need to face the seemingly heartless and brutal fact of life that all Muslims need to be given the choice of leaving Islam voluntarily or being put out of harm’s way, i.e. put out of the way from harming anybody else! No other way has the prospect of resolving the Muslim problem across the globe.  War on Jihad site

It’s Time to Put the Coffee Down and Eradicate Islam in the West. This article included the passage “It’s time to join the war, not on “terror” (that oh-so soothing illusion,) but on Islam in the West. Most urgently, we must defend Israel as the frontline in the war against the spread of Islam.”  Jeanette Pryor on David Horowitz’ blog

“ Western European societies are unprepared for the massive immigration of brown-skinned peoples cooking strange foods and maintaining different standards of hygiene…. All immigrants bring exotic customs and attitudes, but Muslim customs are more troublesome than most.”  Daniel Pipes, MEF

Islam is “a violent political system bent on the overthrow of the governments of the world and world domination.  You’re dealing with not a religion, you’re dealing with a political system, and I think we should treat it as such, and treat its adherents as such as we would members of the communist party, members of some fascist group.”  Rev. Pat Robertson

“Do you really want someone representing you, who swears an oath on a Quran — a book that undermines our Constitution and says you should be killed? I’m Gary Boisclair, and I approve this message.”  Gary Boisclair (D-MI)

“It has been left to us to educate the uneducated of this country to the difference between Sikhism, Hinduism and Islam. Islam is a disease….it is a disease. Winston Churchill once said, ‘Islam in a man is the same as rabies in a dog’.”  Stephen Yaxley-Lennon (aka Tommy Robinson), EDL

“... every single Muslim watching this on YouTube: on 7/7 you got away with killing and maiming British citizens, you got away with it. Next time you think about it you’d better understand that we have built a network from one end of this country to the other end. We will not tolerate it and the Islamic community will feel the full force of the English Defence League if we see any of our citizens killed, maimed or hurt on British soil ever again.”  - Stephen Yaxley-Lennon (aka Tommy Robinson), EDL

Well there you have it, smelly has no problem with genocide but has issues when Muslim fight back when transgressed, hey ho, does not get anymore hypocritical than that really.


Again the view is as seen no matter which Abrahamic faith you have had and still have people interpret their own view and justify violence from these interpretations. Something smelly does not seem to comprehend.

What is the official interpretation of "transgress" and who decides when limits have been transgressed

Lol

smelly_bandit wrote:Oh right it's back to the interpretation excuse even though I showed how interpretation. Only works on ambiguous language

A clear cut command cannot be "interpreted"

You got schooled on your view to verses, as seen, which you could not counter.

You and Islamists do interpret verses, as seen the following was claimed to have been dictated by one of the followers of Muhammad:



"This is the protection which the servant of God, 'Umar, the Ruler of the Believers has granted to the people of Eiliya [Jerusalem]. The protection is for their lives and properties, their churches and crosses, their sick and healthy and for all their coreligionists. Their churches shall not be used for habitation, nor shall they be demolished, nor shall any injury be done to them or to their compounds, or to their crosses, nor shall their properties be injured in any way. There shall be no compulsion for these people in the matter of religion, nor shall any of them suffer any injury on account of religion... Whatever is written herein is under the covenant of God and the responsibility of His Messenger, of the Caliphs and of the believers, and shall hold good as long as they pay Jizya [the tax for their defense] imposed on them."

Those non-Muslims who took part in defense together with the Muslims were exempted from paying Jizya, and when the Muslims had to retreat from a city whose non-Muslim citizens had paid this tax for their defense, the tax was returned to the non-Muslims. The old, the poor and the disabled of Muslims and non-Muslims alike were provided for from the public treasury and from the Zakat funds..


Not only that, women and children are exempt, so it is a command only to non-Muslim men who have not paid the tax:

Read again this part:

"and shall hold good as long as they pay Jizya [the tax for their defense] imposed on them."


Clearly thus this verse is stating in regards to those who do not pay the tax, quite simple, unless of course like yourself you are a simpleton. Thus historicity shows your views is also bollocks

Even worse for your argument why would they pay the tax back if they were not able to protect them anymore?


DOH

Sorry you just proved how badly people do interpret and as seen many Muslim scholars promote the view that Islam can only defend itself, showing how views do differ. Either way, we know that when Jerusalem was first taken, its people were allowed to continue with their faiths, where even to the point during the crusades the Jews fought along side them and who were then butchered alongside them by the Crusaders.
Funny enough the Crusaders then imposed the same tax on Muslims in the newly created territories.

What is the official Islamic interpretation and meaning of "transgress" and who decides when "limits" have been transgressed???

Secondly where in the qur'an does it say specifically that woman and children are exempt from jizya??

smelly_bandit wrote:What is the official Islamic interpretation and meaning of "transgress" and who decides when "limits" have been transgressed???

Secondly where in the qur'an does it say specifically  that woman and children are exempt from jizya??

Umar(R) wrote to his army generals: “Never levy the tax (Jizya) on women or little children and never levy the tax except on men who shave their beards" - which means adults who started to have beards and shave them.



Dear me on your first point game over then, I highlighted your admission for you.


  

Didge wrote:

smelly_bandit wrote:What is the official Islamic interpretation and meaning of "transgress" and who decides when "limits" have been transgressed???

Secondly where in the qur'an does it say specifically  that woman and children are exempt from jizya??

Umar(R) wrote to his army generals: “Never levy the tax (Jizya) on women or little children and never levy the tax except on men who shave their beards" - which means adults who started to have beards and shave them.



Dear me on your first point game over then, I highlighted your admission for you.


  

Umar wrote to his generals : "levy the tax (jizya) on all kuffar, women, children and men who shave their beards"

see didge

i can also make up some bullshit and say its "official"

what is the offical meaning of transgress and who decdies whne limis have been transgresed??

where in the qur'an does it exclude woman and children from the jizya??

THE Pact of Umar is the body of limitations and privileges entered into by treaty between conquering Muslims and conquered non-Muslims. We have no special treaty of this sort with the Jews, but we must assume that all conquered peoples, including the Jews, had to subscribe to it. Thus the laws cited below and directed against churches apply to synagogues too. The Pact was probably originated about 637 by Umar I after the conquest of Christian Syria and Palestine. By accretions from established practices and precedents, the Pact was extended; yet despite these additions the whole Pact was ascribed to Umar. There are many variants of the text and scholars deny that the text as it now stands could have come from the pen of Umar I; it is generally assumed that its present form dates from about the ninth century.

The Pact of Umar has served to govern the relations between the Muslims and "the people of the book," such as Jews, Christians, and the like, down to the present day.

In addition to the conditions of the Pact listed below, the Jews, like the Christians, paid a head-tax in return for protection, and for exemption from military service. Jews and Christians were also forbidden to hold government office. This Pact, like much medieval legislation, was honored more in the breach than in the observance. In general, though, the Pact increased in stringency with the centuries and was still in force in the 20th century in lands such as Yemen. The Pact is in Arabic.

In the name of God, the Merciful, the Compassionate!

This is a writing to Umar from the Christians of such and such a city. When You [Muslims] marched against us [Christians],: we asked of you protection for ourselves, our posterity, our possessions, and our co-religionists; and we made this stipulation with you, that we will not erect in our city or the suburbs any new monastery, church, cell or hermitage; that we will not repair any of such buildings that may fall into ruins, or renew those that may be situated in the Muslim quarters of the town; that we will not refuse the Muslims entry into our churches either by night or by day; that we will open the gates wide to passengers and travellers; that we will receive any Muslim traveller into our houses and give him food and lodging for three nights; that we will not harbor any spy in our churches or houses, or conceal any enemy of the Muslims. [At least six of these laws were taken over from earlier Christian laws against infidels.]

That we will not teach our children the Qu'ran [some nationalist Arabs feared the infidels would ridicule the Qu'ran; others did not want infidels even to learn the language]; that we will not make a show of the Christian religion nor invite any one to embrace it; that we will not prevent any of our kinsmen from embracing Islam, if they so desire. That we will honor the Muslims and rise up in our assemblies when they wish to take their seats; that we will not imitate them in our dress, either in the cap, turban, sandals, or parting of the hair; that we will not make use of their expressions of speech, nor adopt their surnames [infidels must not use greetings and special phrases employed only by Muslims]; that we will not ride on saddles, or gird on swords, or take to ourselves arms or wear them, or engrave Arabic inscriptions on our rings; that we will not sell wine [forbidden to Muslims]; that we will shave the front of our heads; that we will keep to our own style of dress, wherever we may be; that we will wear girdles round our waists [infidels wore leather or cord girdles; Muslims, cloth and silk].

That we will not display the cross upon our churches or display our crosses or our sacred books in the streets of the Muslims, or in their market-places; that we will strike the clappers in our churches lightly [wooden rattles or bells summoned the people to church or synagogue]; that we will not recite our services in a loud voice when a Muslim is present; that we will not carry Palm branches [on Palm Sunday] or our images in procession in the streets; that at the burial of our dead we will not chant loudly or carry lighted candles in the streets of the Muslims or their market places; that we will not take any slaves that have already been in the possession of Muslims, nor spy into their houses; and that we will not strike any Muslim.

All this we promise to observe, on behalf of ourselves and our co-religionists, and receive protection from you in exchange; and if we violate any of the conditions of this agreement, then we forfeit your protection and you are at liberty to treat us as enemies and rebels.

smelly_bandit wrote:

Didge wrote:



Umar(R) wrote to his army generals: “Never levy the tax (Jizya) on women or little children and never levy the tax except on men who shave their beards" - which means adults who started to have beards and shave them.



Dear me on your first point game over then, I highlighted your admission for you.


  

Umar wrote to his generals : "levy the tax (jizya) on all kuffar, women, children and men who shave their beards"

see didge

i can also make up some bullshit and say its "official"

what is the offical meaning of transgress and who decdies whne limis have been transgresed??

where  in the qur'an does it exclude woman and children from the jizya??

PMSL so a close companion of Muhammad orders this, why did he not order women and children to be taxed if this is what the Quran dictates: This is document, look it up dummy, and there was me thinking you were an expert

DOH

You see nothing you can say makes sense or is even valid, historicity shows your view on this verse is very incorrect, because not only does it show it being paid back but fits exactly how I have demonstrated.

Whoops

You want to know the offical meaning, when Muslims themselves do not agree?

 ://?roflmao?/:  ://?roflmao?/:  ://?roflmao?/:  ://?roflmao?/: 


Now you starting to realise how things get interpreted.


You took your time replying were you stumped again and had to email a friend for help

 ://?roflmao?/: ://?roflmao?/: ://?roflmao?/: 

Jizya in Islam


By : Dr. Monqiz As-Saqqar


Monqiz As-Saqqar   is a Ph.D in Christian Doctrines and Scriptures, Faculty of Usul al-Din, Umm al-Qura University , Saudi Arabia .

Translated by Hayam Elisawy. Edited by Mohd Elfie Nieshaem Juferi

Preface

The Qur’anic commandment of collecting the Jizya[1] from the People of the Book is equivocal and confusing for some. The commandment is clearly stated in the following verse:
"Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which has been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the Religion of Truth, form among the People of the Book until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."[1]
Some have thus erroneously viewed this Qur'anic commandment as a form of injustice, oppression and humiliation of nations and peoples who came under Islamic rule. Undoubtedly those to hold to this view have neglected the great privileges attributed to the rights of those who are imposed the jizya upon in Islam. Rather, these persons believe that Islam is similar to other ruling regimes that preceded and succeeded it. Islam is a unique regime as regards the matter at hand or any other issues. Islam is totally detached from the injustice and oppression as was the norm of how the People of Jizya used to be commonly treated, as it will become obvious in the following impartial and objective scientific research.



Jizya from the Linguistic Perspective

"Jizya" is derived from the root "Jaza" or "compensate". Arabs usually say the phrase "Jaza, yajzi" which means "compensate" or 'reward" if a person rewards another for the service rendered by the latter. "Jizya" is a derived term in the form of "ficla" from "Mujazã" which is the noun "compensation", meaning "a sum of money given in return for protection". Ibn Al-Mutaraz said: "It is derived from "’idjzã" or "substitute" or "sufficiency" because it suffices as a substitute for the "dhimmi's[2] embracement of Islam"[2]



Jizya in Pre-Islamic Times

Islam was not the first religion to pre-ordain the Jizya and Muslims were not the first nation to levy the Jizya unto the peoples subdued by them. Victorious nations throughout history have persisted in levying the Jizya on their conquered subjects. Examples of such an action are abundant in human history.
This is reflected in the New Testament when Christ(P) told Simon the following:
"What do you think Simon? From whom do the kings of the earth collect duty and taxes – from their own sons or from others?" "From others" Peter answered. "Then the sons are exempt" Jesus said to him." (Matthew 17:24-25).
When the prophets, peace be upon them, conquered certain kingdoms with the will and victory of Allah, they levied the jizya upon the conquered peoples. They had in fact also enslaved the conquered peoples as was done by Joshua on the people of Canaan when he conquered them:
"They did not dislodge the Canaanites dwelling on Gezer ; to this day the Canaanites live among the people of Ephraim but are required to pay Jizya." (Joshua 16:10).
Thus Joshua had both enslaved and levied Jizya on the people of Canaan .

Christianity did not abrogate any of the laws of Judaism. Christ(P) did not come to abolish the Law or the Prophets, rather, he came to fulfill them (Matthew 5:17). Christ(P) even commanded his followers to pay the Jizya to the Romans and he himself had expediently paid it. He told Simon:
"Go to the lake and throw your line. Take the first fish you catch; open its mouth and you will find a four-drachma coin. Take it and give it to them for my tax and yours." (Matthew 17:24-27)
When asked by Jews (as per the New Testament) about his opinion as regards the payment of the Jizya, he acknowledged Caesar's right to take it
"They sent their disciples to him along with the Herodians. "Teacher," they said, "we know you are a man of integrity and that you teach the way of God in accordance with the truth. You are not swayed by men, because you pay no attention to who they are. Tell us then, what is your opinion? Is it right to pay taxes to Caesar or not?" But Jesus, knowing their evil intent, said,"You hypocrites, why are you trying to trap me? Show me the coin used for paying the tax." They brought him a denarius, and he asked them, “Whose portrait is this? And whose inscription???? "Caesar's," they replied. Then he said to them, "Give to Caesar what is Caesar's, and to God what is God's." (Matthew 22:16-21).


Christ(P) took no offense in sitting and loving tax-collectors who collected Jizya and delivered it to the Romans (See Matthew 11/19). Christ(P) had in fact elected Matthew the tax-collector to be one of his twelve disciples (see Matthew 9:9).


The New Testament considers the payment of Jizya to the ruler as a legislative right. It is clad in holiness and is rendered as a religious matter. It says:
"Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. For he is God’s servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He Is God’s servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience. This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God’s servants, who give their full time to governing. Give everyone what you owe him if you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor." (Romans 13:1-7).


Jizya in Islam

Islam did not halt the societal norms and human practices which precedes its advent. Rather, Islam sets a higher standard above the misgivings of others. Islam lends its own civilized features to the nations that come under its rule.by elevating the Jizya to become not merely a poll-tax paid by the conquered to the victorious but as a binding covenant made between the Muslim nation and the peoples who eventually came under Islamic rule. The jizya became a contract or an agreement between two parties, duly guarded and blessed by Allah's Commandments and ordinances represented in pledges and the respect and abidance by covenants. The contract is sealed and authenticated by the Prophet’s wrath, peace and blessings upon him, to those who violate such an agreement. This is manifested in the expression "the People of the Dhimma" (or Covenant), this dhimma which may never be violated and which must be duly fulfilled and guarded by virtue of the commandment given by the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him.


Allah(T) preordained that Jizya be taken from fighters exclusively as the verse obviously states:
"Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which has been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the Religion of Truth, form among the People of the Book until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."[3]
Al-Qurtubi said:
"Our scholars said: The Qur'an proves that Jezya is taken from fighters…This is ijma’[3] (consensus) by scholars that jizya is levied only on adult, free men who are qualified to go to war not on women or children or slaves or mad people or defeated people or senile or the elderly."[4]
‘Umar(R) wrote to his army generals: “Never levy the tax (Jizya) on women or little children and never levy the tax except on men who shave their beards" - which means adults who started to have beards and shave them.[5]


The sum of jizya was never large to the extent that the men were unable to pay. Rather, it was always available and reasonable. During the reign of the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, jizya never exceeded one dinar annually and it never exceeded four dinars under the Umayyad rule.
When the Prophet(P) sent Mu’az to Yemen , he took one dinar as jizya from every adult man. Mu’az says:
"The Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, sent me to Yemen, he commanded me to take a male or female calf for every thirty cows and a cow for every forty cows (this is the Zakat levied on Muslims) and one dinar from every adult man or the equivalent thereof in the form of clothes (jizya)"[6]
In the reign of ‘Umar Ibn Al-Khattãb – May Allah be pleased with him- he levied jizya on gold-sellers in the amount of four dinars and on paper-sellers in the amount of forty dirhams in addition to the wealth of Muslims and a three-day hospitability[7].


1) Warning against injustice toward the People of Dhimma

Allah(T) in His Book and the Prophet(P) in his hadith preordain benevolence and good deeds to the People of Jizya. Shari `a staunchly prohibits injustice and oppression toward them. The Holy Qur’ãn urges Muslims to be good and just with peaceful People of the Book who do not aggress Muslims:
"Allah forbids you not, with regard to those who fight you not for (your) Faith nor drive you out of your homes, from dealing kindly and justly with them: for Allah loves those who are just."[8]


Benevolence and kindness are the most sublime types of dealing. Thus Allah preordains this degree of good treatment with the parents. This is clearly and patently clarified and expressed by the Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him in another hadith: "Kindness is good morals and ethics."[9]


The Prophet(P) also says warning against being unjust to the People of Dhimma or impairing their rights: "The one who wrongs a covenanter or impairs his right or overworks him or forcibly takes something from him, I will be his prosecutor on the Day of Judgment"[10]. He also says: "The one who kills a covenanter will never smell the scent of heaven and its scent is found at the distance of forty years."[11]


When some Muslims mistreated the People of Jizya, the stance of knowing scholars was strict. Hesham ibn Hakim ibn Hizam once passed by a group of Nabatcans in the Levant who were made to be staying in the sun. He said: What’s wrong with these people? They said: They are imprisoned because they did not pay the jizya. Hesham said: "I witness that I have heard the Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him saying: "Allah tortures those who torture people in this lifetime." He said: "And their ruler at the time was ‘Umair Ibn Sa’d on Palestine , so he went to him and passed his orders so they were discharged."[12]


As for the commandment of subdue set out in the Qur’anic verse "and feel themselves subdued", it is a meaning that could never contradict the sayings of the Prophet(P) which preordain kindness, justice, prohibition of injustice and oppression. [That] is how the scholars of Islam understood it. Al-Shaf’i interpreted this phrase as preordaining that the rules and regulations of Islam apply to them or to their public. Jizya is a sign of a nation subdued and conquered due to the general properties of the conquering nation.


The successor, ‘Ikrima the servant of Ibn ‘Abbas interpreted this as the image of payment of Jizya to Muslims. He said: "They should be standing up while giving it while the takers should be sitting down???. As the giving hand has always been the upper hand, so it should be the upper, they were required to make the jizya payer feel their superiority over him and not his superiority over them. Al-Qurtubi says in his interpretation:
"So the hand of an almsgiver is made the upper hand while the hand of the jizya giver is the lower hand while the hand of the jizya taker is the upper."[13]


2) Certain forms of Dhimma Treaties and Covenants in the Islamic State

Islam gave unique guarantees to the People of Dhimma that were and will never by encountered by humanity. In return for very few dirhams to be paid by men who are able to go to war and fight, they enjoy living in security and absolute protection by Muslims in addition to the security of their churches and faith.


This was manifest in the councils given by Caliphs to their army leaders as asserted by the forms and wording of agreements duly signed by Muslims with jizya payers. We would like to draw the reader’s attention to contemplate the guarantees given by Muslims and the sum of money paid by the People of Jizya in return.


We will start by the historians’ accounts on the covenants of the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, with the People of Jizya. In the onset we will set forth the account of Ibn Sa’d in his “Tabaqaat??? from the covenant of the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, to Rabica


Al-Hadrami, where he says:
"The Messenger of Allah wrote to Rabica Ibn Zi Marhab Al-Hadrami, his brothers and uncles that they are entitled to their property, palm trees, slaves, wells, trees, water, waterwheels and plants in Hadhramaut, and that the fruit and nabq of each mortgaged land shall be included in the sum of mortgage due to him. All good that is in their fruit they will never be questioned for and Allah and His Messenger are free from it. The jamaca of Muslims must defend the people of zi Murhab and their land must never be violated together with their property, lives and zafer the orchard of the king, which used to flow to the people of Qays and Allah is the Protector. Executed by Mu'awiya."[14]


The phrase "The jamaca of Muslims must defend the people of zi Murhab" comprises a significant implication viz Muslims would sacrifice their lives for those who come under their protection and covenant. This is the dhimma of Allah Almighty and the dhimma of His Messenger, peace and blessings be upon him, Al-Qarafi says:
"An agreement which is duly maintained by lives and property is verily a magnificent one."[15]


The Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, wrote a letter of dhimma and covenant to the Christian people of Najraan which is conveyed to us by Ibn Sa'ad in his Tabaqaat:
"The Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, wrote to the bishop of the sons of Al-Harith Ibn Ka’b and the bishops, clergymen, adherents and priests of Najraan, telling them that they are entitled to whatever property in their possession notwithstanding its being large or small including their synagogues, prayers, priests as well as the protection of Allah and His Messenger, no bishop may be removed from his bishopric, no priest will be denied his priesthood and no clergyman will be denied his ministry. Nothing of their rights may be breached or abolished and neither their authority nor any of their status-quo will be violated so long as they give sincere advice and put their conditions to order without being unjust or being wronged. This was executed by Al-Mughira."[16]


The companions of the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, applied what they learnt from their magnificent Messenger and they abided by the principles and civilized features of Islam vis-à-vis the people of jizya. Historians gave accounts of a number of covenants granted by Muslims to the people of dhimma. For example the 'Omarian covenant given by 'Omar to the people of Aelia. It reads as follows:
"In the Name of Allah, the Most Compassionate and Most Gracious. This is the covenant of security granted by the servant of Allah, 'Omar the Commander of the Faithful, to the people of Aelia. He, hereby, guarantees the security of their persons and property, their churches and crosses, the little and the great and all adherents of the Christian religion. It is prohibited that their churches be inhibited or demolished or diminished as regards the church itself or its domain. Neither may their cross be impaired or any of their property in any manner.

They should not be coerced to abandon their faith and no one of them may be harmed. No Jews are permitted to live with them in Aelia. Upon the people of Aelia falls the obligation to pay the jizya, as is the case with the people of Mada'in, as well as evict from their midst the Byzantine. Whoever of these who leaves Aelia will be granted security of person and property until he reaches his des tina tion. Whoever decides to stay in Aelia will also be granted same, and share with the people of Aelia in their rights and the jizya. The same applies to the people of Aelia as well as to any other person. Those who would like to march with the Byzantines may go and those who would like to return to their people will not be bound to pay anything until they reap their harvest.

Allah attests to the content of this treaty, and so do His Prophet, his successors and the believers.
This is witnessed by Khalid Ibn Al-Walid, 'Amr Ibn Al-'Aas, Abdul-Rahman Ibn 'Awf and Mu'awiyah Ibn Abi Sufian. Executed in the year 15 Hijri." [17]


'Umar wrote a similar treaty to the people of Al-Lid.[18]
When Khalid Ibn Al-Walid conquered Damascus , he wrote a similar treaty to its people.
"In the Name of Allah, the Most Compassionate and Most Gracious. This is the covenant granted by Khalid Ibn Al-Walid to the people of Damascus if he enters it. They will be secure regarding their lives, property and churches. The fence of the city may not be demolished and no house owned by them may be dispossessed or inhibited. This is the covenant of Allah and the dhimma of His Messenger, peace and blessings be upon him, the Caliphs and the believers. They are to be well-treated conditional upon their payment of jizya."[19]


'Abada Ibn Al-Samit records these civilized features of jizya in Islam when depicting the Islamic stance vis-à-vis Al-Muqawqas, the king of the Copts:

"Either to embrace Islam…if you and your companions accept this, you'll have attained the happiness of both this life and the after-life and we will not fight you and will never injure you or aggress you. However if you refuse, you have to pay jizya. Pay us the jizya and we will agree on a sum satisfactory to both of us to be collected every year so long as we and you remain. Thus we will defend you and fight your enemies or those who violate your lands, lives and property and we will undertake this duty so long as you are in our dhimma and so long as a covenant is binding on us towards you…"[20]
Again it is noticeable that the Muslim sacrifices his life to protect the people of jizya and their property "We will defend you…"



3) Muslims' Keenness on Honoring the Dhimma Agreement

The Caliphs were afraid lest the Muslims impair the rights of the People of Dhimma. Therefore they used to regularly inspect how the jizya was obtained. Al-Tabari gives an account of this in his history in the context of 'Umar's speech with a delegation from a country of dhimma, " 'Umar said to the delegation: Do Muslims mistreat you or impair your rights? They said: We never knew but honor and good treatment."[21]


When he received the collected taxes he asked about the source lest it be oppression and coercion. It was said that he, may Allah be pleased with him, "received a large amount of money, I reckon he said it is of the jizya and said: "I am afraid you might have forced people into paying?" They said: "No, by Allah, we only took it satisfactorily and with no grudge." He said: "With neither whip nor lash?" They said: "Yes." He said: "Praise be to Allah who prevented such acts from taking place at my hand and during my rule."[22]


When he was about to pass away he never missed to advise Muslims to protect and care for the people of dhimma. He said: "I hereby advise the Caliph to succeed me to be good to the people of dhimma and to honor their covenant and to fight for them and not to overwork them."[23]

Ali, may Allah be pleased with him, wrote to his tax officials saying. "If you reached them never sell them a garment either in winter time or in summer time nor sell them food to eat or an animal to work on and never lash any of them even once for a dirham and never make any of them get to his feet to ask for a dirham. Never sell any of them anything of the taxes. Allah commanded us to take from them jizya with kindness. If you disobey me, the punishment of Allah will befall you and not me and if otherwise is reported to me, you will be dismissed from office."[24]


Al-Walid Ibn Yazid evicted the Christians of Cyprus out of his fear that they might help the Romans. But Yazid Ibn Al-Walid brought them back. Isma 'il Ibn 'ayash says regarding the deed of Al-Walid: "Muslims found this action horrible and Jurisprudents found it terrible. When Yazid Ibn Al-Walid succeeded his father, he reinstated them. Muslims approved of such an act and they found it just.[25]


When Al-Walid Ibn Abdel-Malek forcibly took over the Church of John from the Christians and annexed it to the masjid, Muslims viewed this as usurpation. When Omar Ibn Abdul-‘Aziz succeeded him the Christians filed a complaint to him. So he wrote to his tax-collector ordering him to return the additional parts annexed to the masjid to them.[26]


http://www.irfi.org/articles/articles_1051_1100/Jizya_in_islam.htm

all youhave done is give me "examples" of certian Muslims honouring the dhimmi status of non Muslims

you said that Islam prohibits the levying of jzya on woman and children -Islam is teh qur'an

soooooooooooooooooooooo

what sura in the qur'an prohibits the levying of the jizya on woman and children??

Didge wrote:

smelly_bandit wrote:

Umar wrote to his generals : "levy the tax (jizya) on all kuffar, women, children and men who shave their beards"

see didge

i can also make up some bullshit and say its "official"

what is the offical meaning of transgress and who decdies whne limis have been transgresed??

where  in the qur'an does it exclude woman and children from the jizya??

PMSL so a close companion of Muhammad orders this, why did he not order women and children to be taxed if this is what the Quran dictates: This is document, look it up dummy, and there was me thinking you were an expert

DOH

You see nothing you can say makes sense or is even valid, historicity shows your view on this verse is very incorrect, because not only does it show it being paid back but fits exactly how I have demonstrated.

Whoops

You want to know the offical meaning, when Muslims themselves do not agree?

 ://?roflmao?/:  ://?roflmao?/:  ://?roflmao?/:  ://?roflmao?/: 


Now you starting to realise how things get interpreted.


You took your time replying were you stumped again and had to email a friend for help

 ://?roflmao?/: ://?roflmao?/: ://?roflmao?/: 

if this instruction exists in the qur'an which you say it does then tell me what sura it is and ill post it up??

smelly_bandit wrote:

Didge wrote:


PMSL so a close companion of Muhammad orders this, why did he not order women and children to be taxed if this is what the Quran dictates: This is document, look it up dummy, and there was me thinking you were an expert

DOH

You see nothing you can say makes sense or is even valid, historicity shows your view on this verse is very incorrect, because not only does it show it being paid back but fits exactly how I have demonstrated.

Whoops

You want to know the offical meaning, when Muslims themselves do not agree?

 ://?roflmao?/:  ://?roflmao?/:  ://?roflmao?/:  ://?roflmao?/: 


Now you starting to realise how things get interpreted.


You took your time replying were you stumped again and had to email a friend for help

 ://?roflmao?/: ://?roflmao?/: ://?roflmao?/: 

if this instruction exists in the qur'an which you say it does then tell me what sura it is and ill post it up??

Does every instruction come from the Quran?

Nope, try again, you are clutching at straws

Again you have been unable to refute the historicity, the one thing that leaves your argument flapping like a fish out of water

The purpose of this taxation is to make the non-Muslims support the government under which they are living and being protected from all sorts of aggression. In the prime time of Islamic civilization if the Muslims could not protect the dhimmis they did not levy Jizya tax on them. Following examples testifies to this;

“… in a treaty made by Khalid with some town in the neighborhood of Hirah, he writes; ‘If we protect you, then Jizya is due to us; but we do not, then it is not.’” (Thomas Arnold, The Preaching of Islam, Charles Scribner’s Sons, New York 1913 p.61)

After the Muslims had captured Hims (Emesa) and taken the Jizya as agreed in the agreement signed when the Muslims entered the city, it was learnt that Roman Emperor Heraclius was advancing with a large army. Abu ‘Ubaida, may Allah be pleased with him, who was the Muslim commander on the Syrian front, ordered all the dues taken as Jizya to be returned to the people of the city. According to Baladhuri the people of the city were told,

“We are not able to defend you anymore and now you have complete authority over your matters.” (Futuh al-Baldan 1/162)

Al-Azdi narrates the same with the following wording;

“We have returned your wealth back to you because we detest taking your wealth and then failing to protect your land. We are moving to another area and have called upon our brethren, and then we will fight our enemy. If Allah helps us defeat them we shall fulfill our covenant with you except that you yourselves do not like it then.” (Futuh al-Sham ed. William N. Lees published by Baptist Mission Culcutta, 1854 pp. 137-138)

Al-Baladhuri quotes the response of the people of Hims;

“Verily your rule and justice is dearer to us than the tyranny and oppression in which we used to live.” (Futuh al-Baldan 1/162)

And al-Azdi quotes their even more emphatic reaction to the Muslim way of dealing. They said;

“May God again make you ruler over us and may God’s curse be upon the Byzantines who used to rule over us. By the Lord, had it been they, they would have never returned us anything; instead they would have ceased all they could from our possessions.” (Futuh al-Sham p. 138)

Montesquiei also highlights how the Muslim treatment of masses was far better than what preceded them under the Byzantine Greeks. He writes;

“It was this excess of taxes that occasioned the prodigious facility with which the Mahometans carried on their conquests. Instead of a continual series of extortions devised by the subtle avarice of the Greek emperors, the people were subjected to a simple tribute which was paid and collected with ease. Thus they were far happier in obeying a barbarous nation than a corrupt government, in which they suffered every inconvenience of lost liberty, with all the horror of present slavery.” (The Spirit of Laws, Book 13. Emphasis mine)

However mark his inherent hatred in the words “barbarous nation” and “horror of present slavery” which does not fit into the historical account that he gives but perhaps goes fine with his prejudices.

As a compensation for exemption from military services:

It is also a compensation for exemption from any kind of military service. As al-Alusi writes it is so because otherwise when required it is obligatory upon every citizen of the state to help the state in the war. (see Tafsir Ruh al-M’ani 7/204 under Qur’an 9:29)

(Infact this seems to be a more valid reason because it was not levied on women and the old as they were not expected to give any operational military assistance.)

Sir Thomas Arnold writes;

“… when any Christian people served in the Muslim army, they were exempted from the payment of this tax. Such was the case with the tribe of al-Jurajima, a Christian tribe in the neighborhood of Antioch who made peace with the Muslims, promising to be their allies and fight on their side in battle, on condition that they should not be called upon to pay jizyah and should receive their proper share of the booty. When the Arab conquests were pushed to the north of Persia in A.H. 22, a similar agreement was made with a frontier tribe, which was exempted from the payment of jizyah in consideration of military service.

We find similar instances of remission of jizyah in the case of Christian who served in the army or navy under the Turkish rule. For example, the inhabitants of Megaris, a community of Albanian Christians were exempted from the payment of this tax on condition that they furnished a body of armed men to guard the passes over Mounts Cithaeron and Geranea …. The Christians who served as pioneers of the advance-guard of the Turkish army, repairing the roads and bridges, were likewise exempt from tribute and received grants of land quit of all taxation; and the Christian inhabitants of Hydra paid no direct taxes to the Sultan, but furnished instead a contingent of 250 able-bodied seamen to the Turkish fleet, who were supported out of the local treasury.” (The Preaching of Islam pp.61-62)

Who all are required to pay Jizya?

The Jizya is only upon capable males. Imam Ibn Qayyim writes;

“There is no Jizya on the kids, women and the insane. This is the view of the four imams. Ibn Munzar said, ‘I do not know anyone to have differed with them.’ Abu Muhammad ibn Qudama said in al-Mughni, ‘We do not know of any difference of opinion among the learned on this issue.” (Ahkam Ahl Zimma 1/14)

“And there is no Jizya upon the aged, one suffering from chronic disease, the blind, and the patient who has no hope of recovery and has despaired of his health, even if they have enough.” (Ahkam Ahl Zimma 1/16)

One important incident quoted by Imam Abu Yusuf needs special mention;

‘Umar bin Khattab, may Allah be pleased with him, passed by the door of a people’s dwelling. There was beggar there saying, “Extremely old person with blind eyesight [needs help!”] He [‘Umar] got hold of him from behind and asked, “Which community of the People of Book you belong to?” He said, “I am a Jew.” He asked, “What brought you to this condition that I see?” He said, “The demand of Jizya, the needs and the old age.” ‘Umar got hold of his hand and brought him to his place helped him a little and then called for the custodian of Baytul Mal and said, “Take a look at his suffering. By Allah this is not justice on our part that we extract from them in their youth and leave them helpless in their old age! … He exempted him from Jizya and similarly the likes of him. (Kitabul Kharaj 1/139)

Orientalist, Thomas Armold puts it as;

“The tax was to be levied only on able-bodied males, and not on women or children. The poor who were dependent for their livelihood on alms and the aged poor who were incapable of work were also specially excepted, as also the blind, the lame, the incurables and the insane, unless they happened to be men of wealth; this same condition applied to priests and monks, who were exempt if dependent on the arms of the rich, but had to pay it if they were well-to-do and lived in comfort. The collectors of the jizyah were particularly instructed to show leniency, and refrain from all harsh treatment or the infliction of corporal punishment, in case of non-payment.” (The Preaching of Islam p.60)





Muslims pay Zakah which is 2.5% of the yearly savings. Non-Muslims are to pay maximum 48 Dinars annually.

Just like poor Muslims non-Muslims are also not required to pay Jizya.

Muslim women are not exempted from Zakah, non-Muslim women are.

Zakah does not take away the military services that the state may ask for, Jizya frees one from all that.




The more evidence I show, places your argument as completely wrong smelly


Try again

yes

every instruction comes from the qur'an which Muslims say is the highest authority in Islam

so once again for the umpteenth time

what sura dictates that the jizya is not to be levied against woman and children

smelly_bandit wrote:yes

every instruction comes from the qur'an which Muslims say is the highest authority in Islam

so once again for the umpteenth time

what sura dictates that the jizya is not to be levied against woman and children

Really, every instruction comes from the Quran, are you sure?

I think you are telling porkies are you not, as why do some come from hadiths then?

Whoops


You are clutching at straws, again I have given you countless historicity showing many people were exempt from paying proving your argument has no validity, so you need to disprove the historicity, because it backs my view and nothing backs your view.


Oh dear

keep going didgey

nothing in anything you have posted is official nor does any of it come from the qur'an

all you have done is given us some "examples" of what individuals have done

not what is official qur'anic doctrine

try this

9:29

Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

as we can see there is no exception in the qur'an for the levying of the jizya

only didges wishful thinking

smelly_bandit wrote:keep going didgey

nothing in anything you have posted is official nor does any of it come from the qur'an

all you have done is given us some "examples" of what individuals have done

not what is official qur'anic doctrine

try this

9:29

Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

as we can see there is no exception in the qur'an for the levying of the jizya

only didges wishful thinking

 ://?roflmao?/: ://?roflmao?/: ://?roflmao?/: ://?roflmao?/: 


Dear me, then why did all the early followers exempt women, children, the blind, the poor from paying it?

Take your time dummy


Also why did they also pay it back, if as you claim they are meant to fight them untill they pay?


Opps, that makes your view even more stupid, as why fight until they pay something you then give back?


 ://?roflmao?/: ://?roflmao?/: ://?roflmao?/: 


Schooled again, you not received an email back from your friend then yet to help you?

Didge wrote:

smelly_bandit wrote:yes

every instruction comes from the qur'an which Muslims say is the highest authority in Islam

so once again for the umpteenth time

what sura dictates that the jizya is not to be levied against woman and children

Really, every instruction comes from the Quran, are you sure?

I think you are telling porkies are you not, as why do some come from hadiths then?

Whoops


You are clutching at straws, again I have given you countless historicity showing many people were exempt from paying proving your argument has no validity, so you need to disprove the historicity, because it backs my view and nothing backs your view.


Oh dear

thats interesting because whenever i use the hadith you say that they are corrupt and unreliable

now you're saying that they are reliable

well in that case you will agree that muhhamd was a pedophile since the following hadith show him marrying a 6 year old child and having sex with her at the age of 9


Muslim (8:3309)

A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported: Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) married me when I was six years old, and I was admitted to his house at the age of nine. She further said: We went to Medina and I had an attack of fever for a month, and my hair had come down to the earlobes. Umm Ruman (my mother) came to me and I was at that time on a swing along with my playmates. She called me loudly and I went to her and I did not know what she had wanted of me. She took hold of my hand and took me to the door, and I was saying: Ha, ha (as if I was gasping), until the agitation of my heart was over. She took me to a house, where had gathered the women of the Ansar. They all blessed me and wished me good luck and said: May you have share in good. She (my mother) entrusted me to them. They washed my head and embellished me and nothing frightened me. Allah's Messenger (, may peace be upon him) came there in the morning, and I was entrusted to him.

Bukhari 58:234

Narrated Aisha:

The Prophet engaged me when I was a girl of six (years). We went to Medina and stayed at the home of Bani-al-Harith bin Khazraj. Then I got ill and my hair fell down. Later on my hair grew (again) and my mother, Um Ruman, came to me while I was playing in a swing with some of my girl friends. She called me, and I went to her, not knowing what she wanted to do to me. She caught me by the hand and made me stand at the door of the house. I was breathless then, and when my breathing became Allright, she took some water and rubbed my face and head with it. Then she took me into the house. There in the house I saw some Ansari women who said, "Best wishes and Allah's Blessing and a good luck." Then she entrusted me to them and they prepared me (for the marriage). Unexpectedly Allah's Apostle came to me in the forenoon and my mother handed me over to him, and at that time I was a girl of nine years of age.

good to know you agree that muhhamd was a peadophile

9:29
Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.


Lahore: April 18, 2014. (PCP) Haroon, alias Sunny, aged 22, was murdered by a Muslim colleague who shot him dead on April 16, 2014. He had recently started work at an Islamic in Lahore as a sweeper, where he worked alongside Muslim security guard Umer Farooq.

Farooq mocked Haroon’s Christian faith on a daily basis and forced him to embrace Islam. He started showing dreams to Haroon and told him that he was good looking and should embrace Islam. He also promised to him a life of luxury and marriage to a rich Muslim woman, but Haroon did not care about these things and refused to embrace Islam.

When Haroon told his father what was going on, he was advised to ignore Farooq. On April 16, 2014 Haroon went to work and Farooq again started a conversation about religion and began pressurizing him to embrace Islam. Haroon asked Farooq politely why he was so adamant for him to embrace Islam as he was not ready from his heart. He again clearly refused to convert, stating that he was a true follower of Jesus Christ. Farooq then became aggressive and opened fire on Haroon, with a bullet hitting him the head, killing him on the spot. He later started shouting that Haroon had attempted suicide.

The police took the security guard into custody immediately, but did not register an FIR because they wanted to convert the murder case into suicide. When the local Christians heard about the murder they came out of their houses and staged a protest in front of the police station – it was only then that they lodged an FIR.

Umer Farooq is currently in custody and his case is under investigation.

Nasir Saeed, Director CLAAS-UK, has condemned the killing.

He said that recently we have seen a report published by the MSP stating that 1000 Christian and Hindu girls are being forcibly converted to Islam, while there are also incidents where young boys and some men are also forced to convert to Islam, and if they refused they are killed and implicated in false cases.

Mr Saeed added: “The situation endures because of the government inactions. If people involved in such crimes are brought to justice, then it can act as a deterrent, but instead they are being encouraged by local religious leaders, Imams and Madrasahs.”

He said that the main reason for such crimes is growing religious intolerance and hate against minorities.

“The government must ban religious discussion and forcing non-Muslims to convert to Islam must be considered a crime, otherwise minorities have no future in Pakistan. It is equally dangerous for the government as with the growing violation of human rights, Pakistan could be deprived of the benefits it is receiving from the international community, including GSP plus status.”

As has been the case in numerous other incidents, the police again dragged their heels in registering the case and only did so because Christians in the locality raised their voices in solidarity with Haroon.

Justice must be seen to be done and Farooq must be charged with murder, and punished for killing Haroon just because he refused to forsake his faith and bow to the pressure being placed on him.

PMSL, so nothing to refute the historicity.

Try again dummy

didge repeatedly says that the property of those paying the jizya is protected??

that is of course a lie


BAGHDAD, IRAQ (Worthy News)– Gangs in Baghdad are seizing homes left vacant by Christian families who have been forced to flee from sectarian violence, according to Barnabas Aid.

"Most of them are afraid of submitting complaints to the government because they do not believe they can protect themselves if they file a lawsuit," said William Warda, head of the Baghdad-based Hammurabi Human Rights Organization.

Iraq's Christians are most at risk of having their homes seized as they lack the tribal affiliations that protect their Arab Muslim neighbors.

After the 2003 US-led invasion of Iraq, there was a surge in anti-Christian threats, kidnappings and murders, prompting thousands of Iraqi Christians to flee. But many who left didn't sell their properties in the hope of one day returning, but eventually they were forced to sell their homes at rates well below market value because Muslim gangs simply took over their properties.

In its 2013 human rights report, the U.S. State Department said that internal corruption prevented the Iraqi government from effectively adjudicating property restitution claims that often disproportionately affected Christian communities.

Many Christians who left their homes fled to the autonomous region of Kurdistan where most now live peacefully in their own neighborhoods.

http://www.worthynews.com/12872-homes-of-Christians-fleeing-iraq-seized-by-gangs

Also the same author on the age contradicts himself, so I do not agree on the age, something you always get confused over, funny how you have now changed the direction of the debate after losing it, happy days

once again despite paying the jizya, the Christians are brutalized by Muslims

Young Christian women are facing a greater risk of being kidnapped by extremists, tortured, and even forced to convert to Islam since the Arab Spring ended in 2011.

This year already has seen a spike in the incidents, according to a report by the non-profit advocacy group International Christian Concern. It has been estimated by the ICC and other watchdog groups in the region that there have been 500 reported cases of young women being attacked by Muslim men since 2011, but unreported cases could send the figure much higher.

The girls are often assaulted, raped, kidnapped, forced to change their faith and sometimes killed, the ICC said.Making matter worse, nothing is being done by local authorities to prevent it in provinces across Egypt, according to officials from both the ICC and the Clarion Project, a US-based non-profit think tank and advocacy group.

“Not only are they turning a blind eye, they are often compliant,” Issac Six, a spokesman for the ICC told FoxNews.com, citing one incident in which a father was assaulted by an officer for asking too many questions about efforts to have his abducted daughter returned.

“It’s pervasive; police at the local level are not stopping the abductions. There needs to be more pressure from the top,” he added. “We have seen cases before where we’ve seen victims returned when the police put pressure on the kidnappers. We know it’s possible, unfortunately, the police are often complacent.”

Six added that the problem is largely ignored by the international community and that the U.S. needs to be more vocal about the issue in its dialogue with the Egyptian government.

One reported incident occurred in the city of Luxor as recently as February when 15-year-old Amira Hafez Wahib attended a morning prayer service at a local church, according to the study from ICC. Amira had asked her mother if she could go to a store near the church to buy an item. Her mother let her go but urged her to hurry right back.

But Amira never returned and is still missing.

The next day, Amira’s family went to the local police to report she had vanished.

“We received promises from the police here that they would arrest the accused and return Amira to her family, but there is not any positive step from them till now,” Rafla Zekry Rafla, an attorney handling the case, was quoted as saying.

The girl’s family believes that they know who her kidnapper is-- a Muslim man, named Yasser Mahmoud, a soldier who was at one time assigned to protect their church. Mahmoud had tried to abduct Amira a few months earlier at a Christian store near the church where she worked.

The family immediately tracked down where the man lived with his family. Relatives told Amira’s parents that they had not heard or seen from Mahmoud since the same day that their daughter disappeared.

Another recent incident occurred on March 9 when a young girl was abducted in front of her school. The family went to the local police for help in locating her.

A few days later, the father was returning home when he was approached by two masked men on a motorcycle. He was stopped by the pair, who attempted to convince him to give up the search for his daughter.

He was told to “just forget her” and had his life threatened. The two men said they would also abduct his other daughters if he continued his search.

Things got worse for the family, whose identities have not been made public due to safety concerns, when the father went to the Civil Status Authority to get a copy of her birth certificate only to discover that her name had been changed and her religion had been changed to Islam.

The ICC report also suggests that more minor incidents are on the rise as well, such as young Christian women wearing crosses in public having them violently ripped off their necks.

Experts point out that the rise in the abuse against young Christian women is likely due to societal misogyny and Islamist indoctrination as well as the recent loss in government power by the Muslim Brotherhood.

“There’s a huge conflict between the Islamist and Christian populations in Egypt right now,” Ryan Mauro, a National Security Analyst with the Clarion Project, said to FoxNews.com. “The Coptic Christians are supporting General el-Sisi because of the military’s efforts to take the Muslim Brotherhood out of power.”

“The radical Islamists are angry. So they are retaliating,” he added.

The Brotherhood is not helping matters,” Mauro said. “They incite the people to carry out these aggressive acts, but when the people carry them out, they denounce it.”

“They know full well what they are doing.”

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2014/04/18/rate-Christian-girls-abducted-and-attacked-by-extremists-on-rise-in-egypt/

So nothing from the time on the historicity only on some modern Muslims extremists, dear me, talk about clutching at straws, all the scholars point to no women and children to be attacked, which also then backs the view only men who can fight pay the tax and smelly keeps backing my view point


  

Didge wrote:Also the same author on the age contradicts himself, so I do not agree on the age, something you always get confused over, funny how you have now changed the direction of the debate after losing it, happy days

im simply showing that you change your mind as and when it suits you

you repeatedly say the hadiths are inaccurate and not reliable when im using them but when you want to use them they are fine

you have just made a claim about some mythical contradiction in the age but amazingly haven't show us what the contradiction is or where you get it from??

you see didge thats why you are such a joke, you always say thing but NEVER back them up

you said that the qur'an prohibits the levying of the jizya on woman and children and yet cannot show what sura says this

you say the age of aisha is wrong but cannot tell me exactly what her age was

waffle

thats all you have

Didge wrote:So nothing from the time on the historicity only on some modern Muslims extremists, dear me, talk about clutching at straws, all the scholars point to no women  and children to be attacked, which also then backs the view only men who can fight pay the tax and smelly keeps backing my view point


  

and yet woman and children are being attacked

smelly_bandit wrote:

Didge wrote:So nothing from the time on the historicity only on some modern Muslims extremists, dear me, talk about clutching at straws, all the scholars point to no women  and children to be attacked, which also then backs the view only men who can fight pay the tax and smelly keeps backing my view point


  

and yet woman and children are being attacked

Yes we know, proving that these extremists are going against what the first Muslims ordained and you helped me prove that showing that you and the Islamists interpret a different Islam.
Again Historicity shows that the early Muslims did not fight or order to fight women and children, that only required the Jiyza from non-Muslims males, and again only if well off, the disabled were also exempt as were the poor. Thus easy to prove also your interpretation is a load of bollocks.

Thanks

Didge wrote:

smelly_bandit wrote:

and yet woman and children are being attacked

Yes we know, proving that these extremists are going against what the first Muslims ordained and you helped me prove that showing that you and the Islamists interpret a different Islam.
Again Historicity shows that the early Muslims did not fight or order to fight women and children, that only required the Jiyza from non-Muslims males, and again only if well off, the disabled were also exempt as were the poor. Thus easy to prove also your interpretation is a load of bollocks.

Thanks

that is not history

that is some fiction written buy some Muslims who want to make themselves look good

the only Muslim who can ordain anything was Muhammad and the hadiths which you now acknowledge as accurate, are full of Muhammad murdering his way across the Arabian peninsula and after his death his companions took up his sword and continued his campaign across the known world

muhhamd himself orders an attack on a caravan knowing full well that woman and children would be killed, his scouts tells him and his answer is "they are of them" before ordering the attack

and the modern day examples show us that they don't exist in a vacuum but are rather a continuation of previous patterns set by earlier Muslims

if these actions were a break from the norm then there would be resistance amongst the larger Muslim population

there isn't, which proves that it is the norm

PMSL so the hadiths are historical but now these are myths?

One moment

 ://?roflmao?/:  ://?roflmao?/:  ://?roflmao?/:  ://?roflmao?/: 

These were the first rulers of Islam and even there is evidence of Muhammad doing also the same when he took Mecca, so even that evidence shows you are also wrong, as he allowed people to keep their faiths and only punished those who had betrayed him, after asking them what punishment was best for them, which they agreed death.


So please stop embarrassing yourself, as how and why would his own followers then alter his own message? That is complete balderdash to claim and shows you are utterly clutching at straws

Didge wrote:PMSL so the hadiths are historical but now these are myths?

One moment

 ://?roflmao?/:  ://?roflmao?/:  ://?roflmao?/:  ://?roflmao?/: 

These were the first rulers of Islam and even there is evidence of Muhammad doing also the same when he took Mecca, so even that evidence shows you are also wrong, as he allowed people to keep their faiths and only punished those who had betrayed him, after asking them what punishment was best for them, which they agreed death.


So please stop embarrassing yourself, as how and why would his own followers then alter his own message? That is complete balderdash to claim and shows you are utterly clutching at straws

Purely out of curiosity Didge, but I was just wondering; you've said you're against all religions, so how come you know so much about Islam - you must have studied it long and hard to come up with all these tomes of information on it.

Tesstacious wrote:

Didge wrote:PMSL so the hadiths are historical but now these are myths?

One moment

 ://?roflmao?/:  ://?roflmao?/:  ://?roflmao?/:  ://?roflmao?/: 

These were the first rulers of Islam and even there is evidence of Muhammad doing also the same when he took Mecca, so even that evidence shows you are also wrong, as he allowed people to keep their faiths and only punished those who had betrayed him, after asking them what punishment was best for them, which they agreed death.


So please stop embarrassing yourself, as how and why would his own followers then alter his own message? That is complete balderdash to claim and shows you are utterly clutching at straws

Purely out of curiosity Didge, but I was just wondering; you've said you're against all religions, so how come you know so much about Islam - you must have studied it long and hard to come up with all these tomes of information on it.

I am very interested in religions, to understand them you have to study them, hence I know even more about Christianity than I do the rest, plus with knowing so much history as I do, you come across much religious conflicts, not difficult really

of course muhhamd allowed people to keep their faith - it was a big money earner this jizya

however now that you have given the hadiths the green light we must see what Hammad actually did

Qur'an (9:29) - "Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."

Sahih Muslim (1:33) The Messenger of Allah said: "I have been commanded to fight against people till they testify that there is no god but Allah, that Muhammad is the messenger of Allah, and they establish prayer and pay zakat."

Sahih Muslim (19:4294) - "When you meet your enemies who are polytheists (which includes Christians), invite them to three courses of action. If they respond to any one of these, you also accept it and withhold yourself from doing them any harm. Invite them to (accept) Islam; if they respond to you, accept it from them and desist from fighting against them ... If they refuse to accept Islam, demand from them the Jizya. If they agree to pay, accept it from them and hold off your hands. If they refuse to pay the tax, seek Allah's help and fight them"

Bukhari (8:387) - "Allah's Apostle said, 'I have been ordered to fight the people till they say: 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah.' And if they say so, pray like our prayers, face our Qibla and slaughter as we slaughter, then their blood and property will be sacred to us and we will not interfere with them except legally and their reckoning will be with Allah.'"

Bukhari (2:24) - "Allah's Apostle said: "I have been ordered (by Allah) to fight against the people until they testify that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that Muhammad is Allah's Apostle, and offer the prayers perfectly and give the obligatory charity, so if they perform a that, then they save their lives and property from me except for Islamic laws and then their reckoning (accounts) will be done by Allah."

Ibn Ishaq/Hisham 959 - Then the apostle sent Khalid bin Walid… to the Banu al-Harith and ordered him to invite them to Islam three days before he attacked them. If they accepted then he was to accept it from them, and if they declined he was to fight them. So Khalid set out and came to them, and sent out riders in all directions inviting the people to Islam, saying, “If you accept Islam you will be safe.” So the men accepted Islam as they were invited.

Ibn Kathir (Commenting on Quran 2:256, which says "let there be no compulsion in religion") - "Therefore all people of the world should be called to Islam. If anyone of them refuses to do so, or refuses to pay the jizya, they should be fought till they are killed."

Osama bin Laden echoes this order from his prophet: "Does Islam, or does it not, force people by the power of the sword to submit to its authority corporeally if not spiritually? Yes. There are only three choices in Islam … . Either submit, or live under the suzerainty of Islam, or die.”

Dear me, do you want me to go through the verses again showing how wrong your views on them are?

Clutching at straws again smelly.

Content Read the Introduction (recommended) 1. Verse 1: "Fighting is ordained for you..." (2:216) 2. Verse 2: "Not equal are those who sit at home..." (4:95) 3. Verse 3: "Among the believers are men having fulfilled their covenant..." (33:23) 4. Verse 4: "When you meet the infidels, smite their necks..." (47:4) 5. Verse 5: "There is no blame on those who are old..." (9:91) 6. Verse 6: "Slay them wherever you catch them..." (2:191) 7. Verse 7: "But if they turn away, catch and slaughter them..." (4:89) 8. Verse 8: "Fight the pagans wherever you see them..." (9:5) 9. Verse 9: "They ask you about fighting in the holy month..." (2:217-218) 10. Verses 10: "Fight in God's cause..." (2:244) & (4:76) 11. Verse 11: "Fight those who believe not in God..." (9:29) * Similar Hadeeth (Narration): "I have been ordered to fight..." 12. Verse 12: "Ruthless to the disbelievers..." (5:54) & (48:29) 13. Verses 13: "I will instil terror into the hearts..." (8:12-13) 14. Verse 14: "The punishment for those who wage war..." (5:33) *Similar Hadeeth (Narration): "A group from the Ukil/Urayna tribe..." 15. Verse 15: "Take not the Jews and Christians as friends..." (5:51)

http://islamnewsroom.com/news-we-need/329-quranmisquotes

Tesstacious wrote:

Didge wrote:PMSL so the hadiths are historical but now these are myths?

One moment

 ://?roflmao?/:  ://?roflmao?/:  ://?roflmao?/:  ://?roflmao?/: 

These were the first rulers of Islam and even there is evidence of Muhammad doing also the same when he took Mecca, so even that evidence shows you are also wrong, as he allowed people to keep their faiths and only punished those who had betrayed him, after asking them what punishment was best for them, which they agreed death.


So please stop embarrassing yourself, as how and why would his own followers then alter his own message? That is complete balderdash to claim and shows you are utterly clutching at straws

Purely out of curiosity Didge, but I was just wondering; you've said you're against all religions, so how come you know so much about Islam - you must have studied it long and hard to come up with all these tomes of information on it.

 ://?roflmao?/: ://?roflmao?/: ://?roflmao?/: 

its called google

Didge wrote:Dear me, do you want me to go through the verses again showing how wrong your views on them are?

Clutching at straws again smelly.

Content Read the Introduction (recommended) 1. Verse 1: "Fighting is ordained for you..." (2:216) 2. Verse 2: "Not equal are those who sit at home..." (4:95) 3. Verse 3: "Among the believers are men having fulfilled their covenant..." (33:23) 4. Verse 4: "When you meet the infidels, smite their necks..." (47:4) 5. Verse 5: "There is no blame on those who are old..." (9:91) 6. Verse 6: "Slay them wherever you catch them..." (2:191) 7. Verse 7: "But if they turn away, catch and slaughter them..." (4:89) 8. Verse 8: "Fight the pagans wherever you see them..." (9:5) 9. Verse 9: "They ask you about fighting in the holy month..." (2:217-218) 10. Verses 10: "Fight in God's cause..." (2:244) & (4:76) 11. Verse 11: "Fight those who believe not in God..." (9:29) * Similar Hadeeth (Narration): "I have been ordered to fight..." 12. Verse 12: "Ruthless to the disbelievers..." (5:54) & (48:29) 13. Verses 13: "I will instil terror into the hearts..." (8:12-13) 14. Verse 14: "The punishment for those who wage war..." (5:33) *Similar Hadeeth (Narration): "A group from the Ukil/Urayna tribe..." 15. Verse 15: "Take not the Jews and Christians as friends..." (5:51)

http://islamnewsroom.com/news-we-need/329-quranmisquotes

yes

go through them and show me

smelly_bandit wrote:

Tesstacious wrote:

Purely out of curiosity Didge, but I was just wondering; you've said you're against all religions, so how come you know so much about Islam - you must have studied it long and hard to come up with all these tomes of information on it.

 ://?roflmao?/: ://?roflmao?/: ://?roflmao?/: 

its called google

Bless, is that why I get it right and you always wrong then smelly, some of us actually read books, try it sometime

 ::D::

I see smelly has conceded on the Jizya then, that was easy

Didge wrote:

smelly_bandit wrote:

 ://?roflmao?/: ://?roflmao?/: ://?roflmao?/: 

its called google

Bless, is that why I get it right and you always wrong then smelly, some of us actually read books, try it sometime

 ::D::

didge anyone can go online Google information about something they want and then copy and paste a massive amount of literature on the subject

to someone who knows noting on Islam, you will look like an "expert" simply due to the amount of literature you post

which is exactly what you do

but its not about quantity, its about quality and you are not capable of producing an argumnet about Islam because you don't know anything about Islam

you said that Islam excludes woman and children form jizya, how many times on this thread have i asked you to provide Islamic scripture which you claim excludes woman and children from jizya???

you keep saying that it does but cannot provide the scriptural proof to validate your claim

its not hard to provide the sura which backs you up

here you go

please post the sura that excludes woman and children from the jizya

http://www.usc.edu/org/cmje/religious-texts/quran/

you wont of course because there isnt any such sura anywhere in the qur'an

your smoke and mirrors act relies entirely on peoples ignorance to work

for anyone who knows anything about Islam - you're the biggest clown going

now please post up the sura which you say excludes woman and children from the jizya??

smelly_bandit wrote:

Didge wrote:Dear me, do you want me to go through the verses again showing how wrong your views on them are?

Clutching at straws again smelly.

Content Read the Introduction (recommended) 1. Verse 1: "Fighting is ordained for you..." (2:216) 2. Verse 2: "Not equal are those who sit at home..." (4:95) 3. Verse 3: "Among the believers are men having fulfilled their covenant..." (33:23) 4. Verse 4: "When you meet the infidels, smite their necks..." (47:4) 5. Verse 5: "There is no blame on those who are old..." (9:91) 6. Verse 6: "Slay them wherever you catch them..." (2:191) 7. Verse 7: "But if they turn away, catch and slaughter them..." (4:89) 8. Verse 8: "Fight the pagans wherever you see them..." (9:5) 9. Verse 9: "They ask you about fighting in the holy month..." (2:217-218) 10. Verses 10: "Fight in God's cause..." (2:244) & (4:76) 11. Verse 11: "Fight those who believe not in God..." (9:29) * Similar Hadeeth (Narration): "I have been ordered to fight..." 12. Verse 12: "Ruthless to the disbelievers..." (5:54) & (48:29) 13. Verses 13: "I will instil terror into the hearts..." (8:12-13) 14. Verse 14: "The punishment for those who wage war..." (5:33) *Similar Hadeeth (Narration): "A group from the Ukil/Urayna tribe..." 15. Verse 15: "Take not the Jews and Christians as friends..." (5:51)

http://islamnewsroom.com/news-we-need/329-quranmisquotes

yes

go through them and show me

so yet another empty threat from didge

It is all there for you to read and how many times have I shown your views wrong as I have done on these threads?

Sorry more interesting debates than having to repeat showing you wrong. The fact that here you have Muslims disagree in itself shows interpretations, the point you always miss.

The fact is you were schooled on the historicity, something you are unable to counter, when you do, let me know

As to you having emails sent to you is also hilarious because you cannot debate

 

Didge wrote:It is all there for you to read and how many times have I shown your views wrong as I have done on these threads?

Sorry more interesting debates than having to repeat showing you wrong. The fact that here you have Muslims disagree in itself shows interpretations, the point you always miss.

The fact is you were schooled on the historicity, something you are unable to counter, when you do, let me know

what have you shown me??

not the sura that says woman and children are exempt from the jizya

"Sorry more interesting debates than having to repeat showing you wrong."

i take it this is you running off the way you usually do

 ://?roflmao?/:  ://?roflmao?/: 

run along didge

Didge wrote:As to you having emails sent to you is also hilarious because you cannot debate

 

what??

  

smelly_bandit wrote:

Didge wrote:As to you having emails sent to you is also hilarious because you cannot debate

 

what??

  

Is why you wait another day to reply.

  

Let me know if you have history from the time of the origins of Islam to back your views?


Opps

Didge wrote:

smelly_bandit wrote:

what??

  

Is why you wait another day to reply.

  

Let me know if you have history from the time of the origins of Islam to back your views?


Opps

 ://?roflmao?/: ://?roflmao?/: ://?roflmao?/: 

what are you talking about now??

smelly_bandit wrote:

Didge wrote:It is all there for you to read and how many times have I shown your views wrong as I have done on these threads?

Sorry more interesting debates than having to repeat showing you wrong. The fact that here you have Muslims disagree in itself shows interpretations, the point you always miss.

The fact is you were schooled on the historicity, something you are unable to counter, when you do, let me know

what have you shown me??

not the sura that says woman and children are exempt from the jizya

"Sorry more interesting debates than having to repeat showing you wrong."

i take it this is you running off the way you usually do

 ://?roflmao?/:  ://?roflmao?/: 

run along didge

Oh my I have shown you the historicity iof the early followers of Muhammad and Muhammad himself how he treated conquered nations disproving your poor claims, which you have no answer for, which is hilarious, hence why you keep giving copout answer

 ://?roflmao?/:  ://?roflmao?/:

how Muhammad treated people he encountered

Qur'an (9:29) - "Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."

Sahih Muslim (1:33) The Messenger of Allah said: "I have been commanded to fight against people till they testify that there is no god but Allah, that Muhammad is the messenger of Allah, and they establish prayer and pay zakat."

Sahih Muslim (19:4294) - "When you meet your enemies who are polytheists (which includes Christians), invite them to three courses of action. If they respond to any one of these, you also accept it and withhold yourself from doing them any harm. Invite them to (accept) Islam; if they respond to you, accept it from them and desist from fighting against them ... If they refuse to accept Islam, demand from them the Jizya. If they agree to pay, accept it from them and hold off your hands. If they refuse to pay the tax, seek Allah's help and fight them"

Bukhari (8:387) - "Allah's Apostle said, 'I have been ordered to fight the people till they say: 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah.' And if they say so, pray like our prayers, face our Qibla and slaughter as we slaughter, then their blood and property will be sacred to us and we will not interfere with them except legally and their reckoning will be with Allah.'"

Bukhari (2:24) - "Allah's Apostle said: "I have been ordered (by Allah) to fight against the people until they testify that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that Muhammad is Allah's Apostle, and offer the prayers perfectly and give the obligatory charity, so if they perform a that, then they save their lives and property from me except for Islamic laws and then their reckoning (accounts) will be done by Allah."

Ibn Ishaq/Hisham 959 - Then the apostle sent Khalid bin Walid… to the Banu al-Harith and ordered him to invite them to Islam three days before he attacked them. If they accepted then he was to accept it from them, and if they declined he was to fight them. So Khalid set out and came to them, and sent out riders in all directions inviting the people to Islam, saying, “If you accept Islam you will be safe.” So the men accepted Islam as they were invited.

Ibn Kathir (Commenting on Quran 2:256, which says "let there be no compulsion in religion") - "Therefore all people of the world should be called to Islam. If anyone of them refuses to do so, or refuses to pay the jizya, they should be fought till they are killed."

Osama bin Laden echoes this order from his prophet: "Does Islam, or does it not, force people by the power of the sword to submit to its authority corporeally if not spiritually? Yes. There are only three choices in Islam … . Either submit, or live under the suzerainty of Islam, or die.”

PMSL laughing again showing your views on the verses are wrong, read again:




We begin with a proper explanation of what exactly is a dhimmi. Dhimmi is a historical term referring to non-Muslim subjects of a Muslim state [2]. The word literally means, “One whose responsibility is taken” or “people with whom a covenant or compact has been made” [3]. The word describes citizens of a Muslim State afforded security over their persons, property and religious practice in return for a tax, the jizya. Historically, when empires won battles and wars, common men were subjugated, looted and forced to work as laborers and serve in the military. Islam did away with such practice by affording all non-Muslim subjects the special dhimmi status [4].
Dhimmis had a special place in Medina. Prophet Muhammad said, “If anyone wrongs a man with whom a covenant has been made [i.e. a dhimmi], or curtails any right of his, or imposes on him more than he can bear, or takes anything from him without his ready agreement, I shall be his adversary on the Day of Resurrection.” [5]
He also made it clear that the protection of their life and honor was the responsibility of the Muslims, and failing in this regard would incur God’s wrath, “Whoever killed a Mu’ahid (a person who is granted the pledge of protection by the Muslims, i.e. a dhimmi) shall not smell the fragrance of Paradise though its fragrance can be smelt at a distance of forty years (of traveling).” [6] At the conquest of Mecca, Prophet Muhammad had the upper hand against the personalities who had persecuted him for over two decades. He could have silenced his enemies forever. Instead, he turned to the Meccans and asked:
‘O’ Quraish! How do you think I would treat you?’ They replied: ‘We expect nothing but good from you as you are a noble and kind brother to us and the son of a noble and kind brother as well.’ The Prophet said, ‘I say to you what the Prophet Joseph said to his brothers: ‘No blame shall lie on you this day! You are free to go.’[7]
Even before the conquest of Mecca, the Charter of Medina set the precedent for the treatment of mu’ahids (dhimmis are those non-Muslim subjects who become subjects after a war. If there is no war and there is a negotiated settlement then they are called mu’ahids). When Prophet Muhammad was popularly appointed Medina’s ruler, he entered into a pact with the Jewish communities of Medina. Through this pact, he granted equal political rights to non-Muslims. They were ensured complete freedom of religion. They were not required to take part in the religious wars of the Muslims, but were required to fight a common enemy of the State. Even as the head of state, Prophet Muhammad afforded non-Muslims the same social status he afforded Muslims. For example, “Once a funeral procession passed before Prophet Muhammad and he stood up [out of respect]. He was told that he [the dead man] was a Jew. Upon this he remarked: ‘Was he not a human being or did he not have a soul?’ [8]
After the Prophet Muhammad’s demise, non-Muslim inhabitants of the fast-expanding Islamic empire enjoyed the same dignified treatment. [9] When Umar, Second Khalifa of Prophet Muhammad, conquered Jerusalem, he entered into a pact with all inhabitants of the city, declaring:
In the name of Allah, the most Gracious, most Beneficent. This is a covenant of peace granted by the slave of Allah, the commander of the faithful ‘Umar to the people of Jerusalem. They are granted protection for their lives, their property, their churches, and their Crosses, in whatever condition they are. All of them are granted the same protection. No one will dwell in their churches, nor will they be destroyed and nothing will be reduced of their belongings. Nothing shall be taken from their Crosses or their property. There will be no compulsion on them regarding their religion, nor will any one of them be troubled. [10]
A dhimmi assassinated Umar in 644 CE. Rather than lashing out against dhimmis, at his deathbed, Umar specifically ordered:
I urge him (i.e., the new Caliph) to take care of those non-Muslims who are under the protection of Allah and His Messenger in that he should observe the convention agreed upon with them, and fight on their behalf (to secure their safety) and he should not over-tax them beyond their capability. [11]
The example we see from Umar specifically condemns taxing dhimmis beyond what they can bear. Instead, Muslims were commanded to care for dhimmis, fight for dhimmis, and to keep dhimmis safe.
Critics also allege that Umar enforced taxation on non-Muslims populations under penalty of death. To support this assertion, they cite the Qur’an 9:29:
Fight those from among the People of the Book who believe not in Allah, nor in the Last Day, nor hold as unlawful what Allah and His Messenger have declared to be unlawful, nor follow the true religion, until they pay the tax with their own hand and acknowledge their subjection. [12]
Nowhere does this verse suggest that death is a penalty for not paying your taxes. The Qur’an has mentioned the use of the death penalty elsewhere for other reasons, unrelated to tax evasion:
And kill not the soul which Allah has forbidden except for just cause. And whoso is killed wrongfully, We have surely given his heir authority to demand retaliation, but let him not exceed the prescribed bounds in slaying; for therein he is helped by law. [13]
Islam has reserved the death penalty for such crimes as treason, murder, or other severe acts of violence that shock the conscience. Umar, Second Khalifa of Prophet Muhammad, never sentenced a non-Muslim to death for not paying his taxes.
Critics allege that Muslim immigrants to Western nations consider themselves “divinely entitled” to the welfare payments they receive in these countries. Quoting the following verse, they claim that Muslims consider the Western nations their dhimmis and such welfare payment the jizya. [14]
Fight those from among the People of the Book who believe not in Allah, nor in the Last Day, nor hold as unlawful what Allah and His Messenger have declared to be unlawful, nor follow the true religion, until they pay the tax considering a favor and acknowledge their subjection. [15]
Obviously, even plainly reading this verse demonstrates that no connection exists between the allegation and the verse itself. Having established that Islam required Muslims to protect dhimmis with equal and just treatment, we transition to the allegations regarding jizya.
Remember, the term dhimmi literally means “protected.” If no such protection existed, such minority communities could potentially be exploited. The jizya tax was the only tax imposed on non-Muslims, and it was less in number and amount than taxes on the Muslims of that state. The term jizya comes from same Arabic root as jaza’ which means “reward” and “compensation.” So according to Shariah law, that money returned to the minorities. The jizya tax, like other taxes, creates accountability on the part of the government to do right by its citizens—not unlike governments that deal with immigration and minority communities. In Christian ruled Sicily, for example, the Christian officials had such a tax for minorities—and they too called it jizya.
Thus, non-Muslims paid jizya as free citizens of the Muslim State in return for protection of their civil and political liberties. Aside from this, critics also hide the fact that Muslims were also taxed. The tax levied on Muslims was on some occasions a heavier tax than the jizya. Additionally, Muslims were obligated to perform military service, from which all non-Muslims were exempt. [16]
Jizya served as the sole citizen tax to assure protection from all foreign attacks. Thus, if protection could not be promised then jizya was impermissible. In his book “The Preaching of Islam,” Thomas Arnold records a statement of the Muslim general, Khalid bin Waleed, “In a treaty made by Khalid with some town in the neighborhood of Hirah, he writes; ‘If we protect you, then Jizya is due to us; but if we do not, then it is not.’” [17]
Abu Ubaida was a famous Muslim commander of Syria. When he entered the city of Hims, he made a pact with its non-Muslim inhabitants and collected the jizya as agreed. When the Muslims learned of a massive advance towards the city by the Roman Emperor Heraclius, they felt they would not be able to protect its citizens. Consequently, Abu Ubaida ordered all the dues taken as jizya to be returned to the people of the city. He said to the people of the city, “We are not able to defend you anymore and now you have complete authority over your matters.” [18] Al-Azdi records Abu Ubaida’s statement as follows:
We have returned your wealth back to you because we detest taking your wealth and then failing to protect your land. We are moving to another area and have called upon our brethren, and then we will fight our enemy. If Allah helps us defeat them we shall fulfill our covenant with you except that you yourselves do not like it then. [19]
More powerful, however, than the Muslims’ kind treatment, is the response that the people of Hims gave to the Muslims. They replied:
Verily your rule and justice is dearer to us than the tyranny and oppression in which we used to live.[20] May God again make you ruler over us and may God’s curse be upon the Byzantines who used to rule over us. By the Lord, had it been they, they would have never returned us anything; instead they would have ceased all they could from our possessions. [21]
These so-called “oppressed” dhimmis openly declared their desire to be under Muslim rule because it was just and fair. The famous French political thinker, Montesquieu, also highlights the fair treatment of non-Muslim citizens in Muslim lands:
It was this excess of taxes that occasioned the prodigious facility with which the Mahometans carried on their conquests. Instead of a continual series of extortions devised by the subtle avarice of the Greek emperors, the people were subjected to a simple tribute which was paid and collected with ease. [22]
Professor Bernard Lewis observes that dhimmis welcomed the change from Byzantine to Arab rule who, “found the new yoke far lighter than the old, both in taxation and in other matters, and that some even among the Christians of Syria and Egypt preferred the rule of Islam to that of Byzantines.” [23]
The jizya was not to be forcefully collected. It was a tax paid willingly as a favor for the protection of the State. Mirza Bashiruddin Mahmud Ahmad, Second Khalifa of the Ahmadiyya Muslim Community, notes:
The expression ‘with their own hand’ is used here in a figurative sense, signifying (1) that Jizya should not be forcibly taken from the People of the Book but that they should pay it with their own hand i.e. they should agree to pay it willingly…; or (2) that they should pay it out of hand, i.e. in ready money and not in the form of deferred payment; or (3) that they should pay it considering it as a favor from Muslims, the word, yad (hand) also meaning a favor. [24]
As previously noted, the jizya exempted dhimmis from serving in the military. Sir Thomas Arnold writes:
When any Christian people served in the Muslim army, they were exempted from the payment of this tax. Such was the case with the tribe of al-Jurajima, a Christian tribe in the neighborhood of Antioch who made peace with the Muslims, promising to be their allies and fight on their side in battle, on condition that they should not be called upon to pay jizya and should receive their proper share of the booty. When the Arab conquests were pushed to the north of Persia in A.H. 22, a similar agreement was made with a frontier tribe, which was exempted from the payment of jizya in consideration of military service. We find similar instances of remission of jizya in the case of Christians who served in the army or navy under the Turkish rule. For example, the inhabitants of Megaris, a community of Albanian Christians were exempted from the payment of this tax on condition that they furnished a body of armed men to guard the passes over Mounts Cithaeron and Geranea… The Christians who served as pioneers of the advance-guard of the Turkish army, repairing the roads and bridges, were likewise exempt from tribute and received grants of land quit of all taxation; and the Christian inhabitants of Hydra paid no direct taxes to the Sultan, but furnished instead a contingent of 250 able-bodied seamen to the Turkish fleet, who were supported out of the local treasury. [25]
The State is primarily responsible for protecting its citizens. In Islam, the State is also required to cater to the welfare of all its citizens. Besides other infrastructure, this requires the establishment and maintenance of armed forces, a working judicial system and civil service. It would be unfair to only ask the Muslims to fund the State and exempt the non-Muslim citizens—equal in status otherwise—hence, the jizya tax.
Furthermore, only working men paid this tax. Women and children, the elderly, the unemployed and the sick or disabled were all exempt. But while non-Muslim women were exempt from the jizya, Muslim women were required to pay the Zakat regardless of whether or not they worked. Sir Thomas Arnold notes:
The tax was to be levied only on able-bodied males, and not on women or children. The poor who were dependent for their livelihood on alms and the aged poor who were incapable of work were also specially excepted, as also the blind, the lame, the incurables and the insane, unless they happened to be men of wealth; this same condition applied to priests and monks, who were exempt if dependent on the arms of the rich, but had to pay it if they were well-to-do and lived in comfort. [26]
Since the Qur’an instructs that the jizya be voluntarily given, early Muslim rulers specifically forbade punishment on non-payment. Sir Thomas Arnold writes, “The collectors of the jizya were particularly instructed to show leniency, and refrain from all harsh treatment or the infliction of corporal punishment, in case of non-payment.” [27]
The jizya tax was an agreement between those non-Muslims who chose to live in Muslim lands and under the Muslim government. The dhimmis recognized that they were under the protection of the Muslim state.
The Spanish Almorvids, for example, are a living testimony to the integrity and compassion with which Muslims treated Jews and Christians. Historian Gwendlyn Hall writes at length:
Some Spanish historians have emphasized the unacknowledged debt Renaissance Europe owed to Moorish Spain. In 1899, Francisco Codera, citing an early chronicle in Arabic, argued against racist interpretations of the Almoravids’ rule in Spain. The chronicler wrote:
The Almoravids were a country people, religious and honest…Their reign was tranquil, and was untroubled by any revolt, either in the cities, or in the countryside…Their days were happy, prosperous, and tranquil, and during their time, abundant and cheap goods were such that for a half-ducat, one could have four loads of flour, and the other grains were neither bought nor sold. There was no tribute, no tax, or contribution for the government except the charity tax and the tithe. Prosperity constantly grew; the population rose, and everyone could freely attend to their own affairs. Their reign was free of deceit, fraud, and revolt, and they were loved by everyone.
Even after its overthrow, other chroniclers of Islamic Spain praised the rule of the Almoravids. They wrote that learning was cherished, literacy was widespread, scholars were subsidized, capital punishment was abolished, and their gold coins were so pure and of such reliable weight that they assured prosperity and stimulated trade throughout the Mediterranean world. Christians and Jews were tolerated within their realms. When the Christians rose up in revolt, they were not executed but were exiled to Morocco instead. The Almoravids were criticized, however, for being excessively influenced by their women. (emphasis added). When the Moors ruled Western Islam, a great variety of trade goods passed abundantly within this vast region. Horses and cattle, hides, leather goods, skins, dried fruits, arts and crafts, tools, swords, and other weapons, ivory, onyx, grain, gold, silver, copper, precious gems, textiles, tapestries, pottery, salt, and kola nuts were widely traded. The coins of the Almoravids, were minted mainly from gold coming from Galam in the upper Senegal River, which arrived via long-established camel caravan routs across the Sahara. Knowledge as well as technology moved across the Sahara in all directions. Some Renaissance and post-Renaissance European music, including notation of pitch and rhythm, probably was transmitted from Moorish Spain.[28]
This is the history of Islam in Europe as it pertains to how Muslims ruled and treated those of other faiths. The only criticism found was these Muslims were, “excessively influenced by their women.”
In closing, as an embodiment of the true spirit of jizya and dhimmitude, once, Umar, Second Khalifa of Prophet Muhammad, met an old Jew begging on the street. Umar said to him, “Old man! We have not done justice to you. In your youth we took jizya from you and have left you to fend for yourself in your old age.” Holding him by the hand, he led him to his own house, and preparing food with his own hands fed him and issued orders to the treasurer of the Bait al-Mal [Treasury] that the old man and all others like him, should be regularly allotted a daily allowance which should suffice for them and their dependents. [29]

[1] Sunan Abu Dawud, #3052 (emphasis added).
[2] Juan Eduardo Campo, ed. “dhimmi”, Encyclopedia of Islam 194-95 (Infobase Publishing, 2010).
[3] Edward William Lane, Arabic-English Lexicon 975-76 (London: Willams & Norgate 1863).
[4] H. Patrick Glenn, Legal Traditions of the World 218-19 (Oxford University Press, 2007).
[5] Sunan Abu Dawud, #3052 (emphasis added).
[6] Bukhari, Vol. 9, Book 83, #49.
[7] Zadul-Ma’ad Vol. l, pg. 424.
[8] Muslim, Book 4, #2098.
[9] H. Patrick Glenn, Legal Traditions of the World 219 (Oxford University Press, 2007).
[10] Tarikh al-Tabari 2/308.
[11] Bukhari, Vol. 4, Book 52, #287.
[12] Qur’an 9:29.
[13] Qur’an 17:34.
[14] Id. at 153.
[15] Qur’an 9:29.
[16] See http://www.alislam.org/quran/tafseer/?page=922®ion=E1&CR (Last Visited on August 12, 2012).
[17] Thomas Walker Arnold, The Preaching of Islam: A History of the Propagation of the Muslim Faith 61 (2007).
[18] William N. Lees, Futuh ash-Sham ed. 1/162 (Published by Baptist Mission Culcutta, 1854).
[19] Id. at 137-38.
[20] Id. at 1/162.
[21] Id. at 138.
[22] Charles de Secondat, baron de Montesquieu, The Spirit of Laws Book 13.
[23] Bernard Lewis, What Went Wrong? Western Impact and Middle Eastern Response 57 (2002).
[24] See http://www.alislam.org/quran/tafseer/?page=922®ion=E1&CR, Last Visited on August 12, 2012.
[25] Thomas Walker Arnold, The Preaching of Islam: A History of the Propagation of the Muslim Faith 61-62 (2007).
[26] Id. at 60.
[27] Id. at 60.
[28] Gwendolyn Midlo Hall, Slavery and African Ethnicities in the Americas: Restoring the Links 6 (2005).
[29] Kitab al-Kharaj 1/139.




Thanks for posting those verses as again it shows your view points are completely wrong in practice to how the first Muslims treated conquered nations.


Busted

didge i think we can all see exactly what the jizya is and what is not

and we can all see how Muslims treat non Muslims in Muslims lands

i mean its rather pointless of you trying to waffle on about how things "used to be" when we can all see who things are

it defies logic to claim that the way things are in modern times is a new phenomenon

Muslims have ALWAYS persecuted non Muslims when they have been numerically and militarily superior

their may have been individual leaders and commanders under whom the dhimmis enjoyed relative peace and security but it is is beyond doubt that the way things are now are how they have always been

no matter how much waffle you heap on this thread you can never wash out the ocean of blood and the mountain of bones left in the wake of Islamic aggression

smelly_bandit wrote:didge i think we can all see exactly what the jizya is and what is not

and we can all see how Muslims treat non Muslims in Muslims lands

i mean its rather pointless of you trying to waffle on about how things "used to be" when we can all see who things are

it defies logic to claim that the way things are in modern times is a new phenomenon

Muslims have ALWAYS persecuted  non Muslims when they have been numerically and militarily superior

their may have been individual leaders and commanders under whom the dhimmis enjoyed relative peace and security but it is is beyond doubt that the way things are now are how they have always been

no matter how much waffle you heap on this thread you can never wash out the ocean of blood and the mountain of bones left in the wake of Islamic aggression

PMSL, so now it does not matter how first Muslims were, when you bang on about the original Islam, showing and proving that today that some Muslims interpret a different view point showing again you just back the radical ones, when the original Muslims were nothing like the radical Muslims of today.

Again historicity, proves you utterly wrong on every view point, which you are unable to refute, it would be the other way round throughout 1400 years of its history and yet you failed to show that.


Very easy and as seen these were not only how Muhammad treated people but also his followers, thus how would his earliest followers be wrong?


Plus countless history shows many non-Muslims were treated way better than Non-Christians in Christian lands, showing again you use examples where persecution has happened, and negate the fact the oldest Christian communities are found in Muslim lands, again damaging your argument


DOH


Sorry you know you have lost all avenues here smelly, better luck next time