EU debate Round 2: Farage wins again

First topic message reminder :

By more than two-to-one debate viewers say Nigel Farage did better than Nick Clegg, a YouGov poll for The Sun finds

Deputy Prime Minister Nick Clegg and UKIP leader Nigel Farage clashed again this Wednesday in the second of two debates about the future of Britain’s relationship with the E.U.

A YouGov poll conducted for The Sun finds that 68% of people who watched the debate say Nigel Farage performed better overall. 27% say Clegg came out on top and 5% don't know.

A YouGov poll conducted for The Sun after the previous debate (held on March 26) found that debate viewers gave Farage the edge over Clegg by 57% to 36%.

Both polls are weighted to be representative politically and by attitudes to EU membership.

The 60-minute debate was broadcast on the BBC.

http://yougov.co.uk/news/2014/04/02/round-2-farage-wins/

Who won will really be decided by how many people are influenced one way or the other in whether they have changed their minds about being in or out of the EU.

Despite Farage winning last time most people didn't change their minds.

Tommy Monk wrote:We are one of the largest economies in the world with much to offer.


Leaving EU will not stop trade.


You are talking rubbish.

it will stop trade within the EU, if we do not abide by EU laws and regulations on trade. That means all UK bushiness and EU based companies here have to abide by these laws to trade within the EU. That means if we leave and try to change these regulations, many European companies will pull as now Britain has no agreement with the EU on trade laws and are not likely to get one after if w did leave, thus crippling thousands of companies who are reliant on trade within the EU for export and import.
What Tommy does not understand is the nations I mentioned outside the EU are signed up to these rulings because if they did not apply them to their own laws, none of them could trade within the EU, something Tommy is having trouble and difficulty grasping.

When for an example a company trades to EU countries, standards set by the EU have to be in place within a company, or that company cannot trade, thus if we were to leave and thus negate EU laws and regulations on trade, we would be fucked, hence why even UKIP will still have to abide by EU trade laws when they come to power to continue trade, as the Swiss, Iceland and Norway have done

I have no problem with mutually beneficial trade and trade rules.


Leaving the EU will not stop trade.

Tommy Monk wrote:I have no problem with mutually beneficial trade and trade rules.


Leaving the EU will not stop trade.

So Tommy has no problem with laws being passed not n the UK but in Brussels, a tad confused what he is arguing about now if he is okay for laws to be made elsewhere, I mean was that not the whole point of UKIP's argument about Brussels creating laws?




I never said laving would stop trade, I said leaving plus the daft claim you made from the previous page:


We can trade with European nations if they have goods and/or services we want and they have goods and/or services they want from us, without being run by EU. I don't know how many times I have said this now. 




The fact is trade within EU states is run by the EU, there is no getting around that and every business that trades from the UK within the EU would have to abide with EU laws and regulations and any more made within  Brussels, which thus leaves us at a distinct disadvantage, being as if we are out, then we will have no say in EU trade laws and regulations. It will alo have other affects on new companies and existing ones to expand business within the EU

I said.....

I have no problem with mutually beneficial trade and trade rules.


Leaving the EU will not stop trade.





This does not mean bending over to EU.


Countries from all over the world trade with EU and do not get run by them or subscribe to EU laws.


We can trade with EU without being run by them too.


You are a complete twat if You think otherwise.


Besides this, we are not the only country that wants to leave EU. The desire to leave is widespread across European people.

Nobody wants this corrupt dictatorship.


I don't know why you support it so?

These EU rules are laws held by all who trade within the EU, which again means you have no problem with laws being made within the EU, which has made many UK companies have to restructure to comply with these laws and rulings.

So you want out to have Britain create all its own laws and yet even if we left, we would still not have all our own laws.

Dictatorship can enforce its laws, the EU cannot and many nations what change within the EU and only leave as a last resort and jumping ship without trying to change the EU would be a disaster, being as if we left we have no say within the EU as stated


So again you have not the first clue what you are talking about

It has and still does cost UK businesses fortunes.


Which is part of the problem with our economy and has been for years.



We can leave the EU and make our own laws and still trade with other European countries as well as the rest of the world.



I don't know why you support the corrupt dictatorship so?

We cannot change EU laws or rulings on trade if we want to do business there, so stop talking bull, to make new ones means those would have to supersede the existing EU laws, of which a Britain that has left the EU is not going to have them agree on.


I am on the fence as to whether to leave and have stated so time and again, because more needs to debated on this and most of negotiations should be exhausted, I would rather like the majority, 80, want this and to only leave if no changes are brought about.


Blimey what do you think it would cost the UK, if we followed your lead to ignore EU trade laws, bankruptcy in one

The EU or European countries will not stop trading with us if we left the EU.



Once you get this through your thick head you will start to understand.

They won't be able to trade with us if we change the laws and rulings, they would have to set up new agreements, which would not get passed the EU.
They will stop trade not in compliance with EU rules, hence why the Swiss, Norway and Iceland also have these laws or ones relevant to their trade, hence why you are the only one utterly thick. You think they are going to be blackmailed into allowing trade because Britain walks away.
The fact is UKIP know this and will have to agree with the EU laws on this just as they are also over the moon with the new EU and US deal

Other countries trade with EU and don't subscribe to their laws.



They will still trade with us.



The EU is not about trade, it is about creating ao unelected and undemocratic and unwanted federal dictatorship.


It is an expensive, devicive and corrupt organisation and drain on the countries of Europe and their economies.


The people of Europe don't want it.

Look didge it is simple - so long as our products meet required standards the EU will trade with us.

China does not follow EU rules on working hours, conditions, energy saving, wages, rights or anything. US does not follow many of them - but the EU still trades with both so long as the items make the test standards.

The EU will not refuse to trade with us just because we leave it unless it is really play school meglamaniac stupid anyway.

sphinx wrote:Look didge it is simple - so long as our products meet required standards the EU will trade with us.  

China does not follow EU rules on working hours, conditions, energy saving, wages, rights or anything.  US does not follow many of them - but the EU still trades with both so long as the items make the test standards.

The EU will not refuse to trade with us just because we leave it unless it is really play school meglamaniac stupid anyway.

You have not a clue, its not just products, but practices and regulations to how companies are run here, again why the Swiss etc have had all to do the same.
Sorry I have worked with big companies and know what I am talking about here, you have not a clue.
China has an agreement with the EU, if we leave and abandon the laws, we have no agreement to trade, or is that to difficult to work out?
I never said they would refuse to trade in the end, but new deals with not benefit the UK, in fact out of the EU we would have no protection on gaining new trade law within the EU

If you want to know trade figures out of the EU go and read the document I have linked to at least twice - unless it is too long and detailed for you.

It explains why the EU will not stop trading with us and highlights multiple other markets we are currently cut off from by EU rules that would allow us significant growth.

The idea that if we leave their club they will refuse to have anything to do with us is the sort of thing expected of children not adult businessmen. Does Tesco stop selling you stuff because you sign a petition saying you dont want their supermarket in your village? Do we refuse to trade with Argentina because they are still threatening to invade the Falklands again? Do we refuse to trade with the US because they have the death penalty and it is illegal here?

You want to know the relationship we should have with Europe look at NAFTA - look at the way they manage to trade freely with each other without open borders, freedom of movement or, political union.

Does it not strike you that the reasons for staying in the EU are inevitably negative to do with nasty things they will do to us if we leave? They will stop trading, they will kick out expats (yeah right they will kick out a group that pays huge amounts of tax and uses little public expenditure) Big companies will leave us so on and so forth. Since when has negatives been any reason to do anything?

Didge wrote:

sphinx wrote:Look didge it is simple - so long as our products meet required standards the EU will trade with us.  

China does not follow EU rules on working hours, conditions, energy saving, wages, rights or anything.  US does not follow many of them - but the EU still trades with both so long as the items make the test standards.

The EU will not refuse to trade with us just because we leave it unless it is really play school meglamaniac stupid anyway.

You have not a clue, its not just products, but practices and regulations to how companies are run here, again why the Swiss etc have had all to do the same.
Sorry I have worked with big companies and know what I am talking about here, you have not a clue.
China has an agreement with the EU, if we leave and abandon the laws, we have no agreement to trade, or is that to difficult to work out?
I never said they would refuse to trade in the end, but new deals with not benefit the UK, in fact out of the EU we would have no protection on gaining new trade law within the EU

If we leave the EU we can do what the Swiss have done - and make our own agreement with China that benefits just us - rather than having one made to provide the least unfairness to all countries making up the EU.

New deals not benefit the UK? Well that would make no change there because right now none of the EU trade agreements are made to benefit the EU - they are made to make sure no one country does any better than any other country.

sphinx wrote:If you want to know trade figures out of the EU go and read the document I have linked to at least twice - unless it is too long and detailed for you.

It explains why the EU will not stop trading with us and highlights multiple other markets we are currently cut off from by EU rules that would allow us significant growth.

The idea that if we leave their club they will refuse to have anything to do with us is the sort of thing expected of children not adult businessmen.  Does Tesco stop selling you stuff because you sign a petition saying you dont want their supermarket in your village?  Do we refuse to trade with Argentina because they are still threatening to invade the Falklands again?  Do we refuse to trade with the US because they have the death penalty and it is illegal here?

You want to know the relationship we should have with Europe look at NAFTA - look at the way they manage to trade freely with each other without open borders, freedom of movement or, political union.

Does it not strike you that the reasons for staying in the EU are inevitably negative to do with nasty things they will do to us if we leave?  They will stop trading, they will kick out expats (yeah right they will kick out a group that pays huge amounts of tax and uses little public expenditure)  Big companies will leave us so on and so forth.  Since when has negatives been any reason to do anything?

Oh please, when you work in the real world, then come and tell me about things being too difficult for you and trade figures is not what is being discussed. It gives an assumption being as again you have no conception how many companies are set up to trade with the EU, which means going back off this just to implement new measures which are not in the line with the EU. that is daft. I never said they would refuse to do business with us, but it will be on their terms, of which again as seen with the Swiss etc , they had to apply these rulings and laws, something  that seems to escape you Sphinx that why any of them did so if 3 small countries could match the EU in clout?

Which will mean the same for Britain if we leave, we lose the clout of being in the EU and thus have to negotiate at a disadvantage and again having top apply their EU rules to trade as why did the Swiss, Iceland and Norway do so? Actually the reasons for staying in are positive if things can be changed  and you fail to see the economic power of such a union which clearly shows by your answers. The fact is most companies here are set up to trade with the EU, in their policies, so they would continue to trade until UKIP decided to change these rulings and laws, of which again they would need themselves to negotiate with the EU on a trade agreement, which would not happen whilst the other is in place now would it meaning again like I said UKIP are not going to change the rulings on trade The fact is we are in need to trade with them, near 50%, they hold the cards on this and will do on many areas, because the EU is way bigger than the UK. Like I say the other 3 non EU countries applied many of these rulings which shows again why you have little understanding here Sphinx

sphinx wrote:

Didge wrote:



You have not a clue, its not just products, but practices and regulations to how companies are run here, again why the Swiss etc have had all to do the same.
Sorry I have worked with big companies and know what I am talking about here, you have not a clue.
China has an agreement with the EU, if we leave and abandon the laws, we have no agreement to trade, or is that to difficult to work out?
I never said they would refuse to trade in the end, but new deals with not benefit the UK, in fact out of the EU we would have no protection on gaining new trade law within the EU

If we leave the EU we can do what the Swiss have done - and make our own agreement with China that benefits just us - rather than having one made to provide the least unfairness to all countries making up the EU.

New deals not benefit the UK?  Well that would make no change there because right now none of the EU trade agreements are made to benefit the EU - they are made to make sure no one country does any better than any other country.

We can do a  new deal with China, not what I said though which was in regards to trade within the EU, which of course has UKIP if they are going to change trade regulations, have they costed this in for companies, how much they are going to have to fork out just to change the rulings and laws on trade because UKIP don't want to negotiate.


Your last point was utter gobbledygook and UKIP propaganda, why is Britain thriving on trade and expanding more than others?

Uh Because its not in the Euro.

We buy much more from the EU than they buy from us.


Do you really think BMW and Mercedes will let Germany stop them selling cars to us if we left EU?

Tommy Monk wrote:We buy much more from the EU than they buy from us.


Do you really think BMW and Mercedes will let Germany stop them selling cars to us if we left EU?

Neither Germany nor the EU will stop them directly - however they know full well that if the EU starts trying to stick tariffs on UK imports then the UK will stick equal tariffs on EU imports.

I am sure everyone can quite imagine the delight of everyone from Nissan to Ford, Honda to GM at the idea of the UK sticking tariffs on BMW, Citroen, Mercedes, Fiat, etc. I am sure none of the EU manufacturers would be prepared to sit still for such a thing.

sphinx wrote:

Tommy Monk wrote:We buy much more from the EU than they buy from us.


Do you really think BMW and Mercedes will let Germany stop them selling cars to us if we left EU?

Neither Germany nor the EU will stop them directly - however they know full well that if the EU starts trying to stick tariffs on UK imports then the UK will stick equal tariffs on EU imports.  

I am sure everyone can quite imagine the delight of everyone from Nissan to Ford, Honda to GM at the idea of the UK sticking tariffs on BMW, Citroen, Mercedes, Fiat, etc.  I am sure none of the EU manufacturers would be prepared to sit still for such a thing.

Quite a daft assumption to think Britain would have the edge in any negotiation on new trade laws, we would not, as seen even the likes of Norway ect have to abide by them, so I fail to see how Britain on its own can force the EU to do its bidding based off threats, when we stand to lose far more. Again have you even contemplated the cost of such changes to trade laws on the thousands of companies that do business from Britain and too Britain, it would cost billions, of which would be another factor for companies to decide is Britain was then a financially viable place to trade from if they are being too difficult over a compromise, thus we stand to lose far more out of this

How many cars to BMW etc export to Norway? How many to the UK?

We do not stand to loose far more - it is the other way around.

For every company negatively affected by any changes there will 9 positively affected. At the moment 90% of UK businesses have no contact with any of the EU but still have to meet their rules. At the same time they are restricted by those rules in dealing with non EU countries.

You fail to see because you refuse to look - once again I will give you the link that explains all this http://d3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.net/ukipdev/pages/96/attachments/original/1396261328/EFd_doc_2.0.pdf?1396261328

You can keep refusing to read it but I will keep throwing it at you.

sphinx wrote:How many cars to BMW etc export to Norway?  How many to the UK?

We do not stand to loose far more - it is the other way around.

For every company negatively affected by any changes there will 9 positively affected.  At the moment 90% of UK businesses have no contact with any of the EU but still have to meet their rules.  At the same time they are restricted by those rules in dealing with non EU countries.

You fail to see because you refuse to look - once again I will give you the link that explains all this http://d3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.net/ukipdev/pages/96/attachments/original/1396261328/EFd_doc_2.0.pdf?1396261328

You can keep refusing to read it but I will keep throwing it at you.

Still being thick I see, again posting some pro out of EU document which has no validity or any economic backing, hilarious


PMSL learn




The EEA is the model Iceland, Liechtenstein and Norway use. If we left the EU but remained in the common market agreement, the EEA, we would still be required to accept immigrants, to make a very large contribution to the EU budget and to accept a the vast majority of EU regulation without getting to voice our say in the European parliaments. EU immigrants could come to Britain and stay here.
Britain could leave the European Union and the European Economic Area and try to get a deal like Switzerland. Switzerland has a kind of pick 'n' mix relationship, such as being in the EU and having free movement with the EU but being in other EU policies. Although this seems preferable, the EU regrets giving Switzerland this deal, and is very unlikely to give it to Britain. Recently the EU has been tough of Switzerland, if we do manage to get a similar deal we must ensure the influence of the EU is limited. Switzerland is the Schengen passport-free no borders area, although it may be possible for the UK to not have free movement.
After leaving the EU and the EEA, Britain could attempt to rapidly make free trade agreements around the world, including the EU and other developing markets. We then could rapidly lower the corporation tax rate to attract new business. The EU already has many of these free trade agreements and it may be very hard or impossible for the UK to redevelop these treaties without the support of the EU, certainly it will take a very long time; however if we join EFTA (the European Free Trade Association) we would get just a few of these deals immediately (we would still need to get a EU-UK free trade agreement).
There remains the issue of EU citizens entering by going to the Republic of Ireland (who will certainly still be in the EU), and then entering the UK on a border it is very hard to police. Also we must ensure there isn't a massive in surge of 1.6 million British nationals from the EU back to the UK. For this reason it would be better to eliminate borders between the EU and the UK by joining the Schengen area but not grant EU migrants the right to work. Those who would have been normally policing the borders, could be used to make more enforcement visits to ensure these people are not working illegally. Unfortunately this policy of adopting the Schengen treaty is very unlikely as none of the main political parties would support it, including UKIP.



Still do not grasp anything do you sphinx

The British government estimates that that the single market brings between £30bn and £90bn a year into the UK economy: or between five and fifteen times the UK net contribution.


Thus again we have to abide by EU rulings or we are again fucked, but that is no problem to UKIP I guess they are happy to see Britain go down the pan

Yeah cause the Government is not pro EU at all is it? It can be totally trusted to present figures honestly and unbiased.

Maybe if you tried reading the document rather than mocking it you might get somewhere - but that would be far too uncomfortable for you wouldn't it?

sphinx wrote:Yeah cause the Government is not pro EU at all is it?  It can be totally trusted to present figures honestly and unbiased.

Maybe if you tried reading the document rather than mocking it you might get somewhere - but that would be far too uncomfortable for you wouldn't it?

 ://?roflmao?/: ://?roflmao?/: ://?roflmao?/: 


Don;t make me laugh


ACKNOWLEDGEMENTS
This paper could not have been written without the help and support of:
■ The EFD Group.
■ UKIP Members and Supporters



Not biased at all

 ://?roflmao?/: 


You still though fail to answer at every turn how we are even going to get better deals, once we leave, being the fact the EU has vast power over trade. The problem is Sphinx you never think anything through hence why to me the EU needs sorting out not leaving, unless we have no other alternative of which it has not come to that. As seen leaving creates vast problems and even more for companies already set to EU regulations, such changes would be a massive cost to them all, and being as you have not the first clue about corporations, you thus have no idea of the cost implications it would entail, as so many things would have to change.

Didge wrote:

sphinx wrote:Yeah cause the Government is not pro EU at all is it?  It can be totally trusted to present figures honestly and unbiased.

Maybe if you tried reading the document rather than mocking it you might get somewhere - but that would be far too uncomfortable for you wouldn't it?

 ://?roflmao?/: ://?roflmao?/: ://?roflmao?/: 


Don;t make me laugh


ACKNOWLEDGEMENTS
This paper could not have been written without the help and support of:
■ The EFD Group.
■ UKIP Members and Supporters



Not biased at all

 ://?roflmao?/: 


You still though fail to answer at every turn how we are even going to get better deals, once we leave, being the fact the EU has vast power over trade. The problem is Sphinx you never think anything through hence why to me the EU needs sorting out not leaving, unless we have no other alternative of which it has not come to that. As seen leaving creates vast problems and even more for companies already set to EU regulations, such changes would be a massive cost to them all, and being as you have not the first clue about corporations, you thus have no idea of the cost implications it would entail, as so many things would have to change.

The answers you say I am failing to give you are in the document I keep linking to which you are finding stupid excuses to refuse to read.
The main author is a chartered accountant and postgraduate from Harvard Business school - needless to say he knows and understands the figures a lot better than I do - hence why I am passing you to him to have your questioned answered. If you wish to stick your fingers in your ears and chant nananananananana to not hear the expert that is your choice.

As the report is written by a UKIP MEP is it surprising that UKIP supporters are acknowledged? And I take it you know who and what the EFD are?

sphinx wrote:

Didge wrote:


 ://?roflmao?/: ://?roflmao?/: ://?roflmao?/: 


Don;t make me laugh


ACKNOWLEDGEMENTS
This paper could not have been written without the help and support of:
■ The EFD Group.
■ UKIP Members and Supporters



Not biased at all

 ://?roflmao?/: 


You still though fail to answer at every turn how we are even going to get better deals, once we leave, being the fact the EU has vast power over trade. The problem is Sphinx you never think anything through hence why to me the EU needs sorting out not leaving, unless we have no other alternative of which it has not come to that. As seen leaving creates vast problems and even more for companies already set to EU regulations, such changes would be a massive cost to them all, and being as you have not the first clue about corporations, you thus have no idea of the cost implications it would entail, as so many things would have to change.

The answers you say I am failing to give you are in the document I keep linking to which you are finding stupid excuses to refuse to read.
The main author is a chartered accountant and postgraduate from Harvard Business school - needless to say he knows and understands the figures a lot better than I do - hence why I am passing you to him to have your questioned answered.  If you wish to stick your fingers in your ears and chant nananananananana to not hear the expert that is your choice.

As the report is written by a UKIP MEP is it surprising that UKIP supporters are acknowledged?  And I take it you know who and what the EFD are?

Oh there are in the document are they the ones I have read and seen are actually lies to make their agenda fit, please spare me they are posting the facts, they are posting possible outcomes, of which even they do not know will happen and again ignoring the facts I have presented you which the problems of leaving.
Again all companies would have to change so much legislation to adopt new trade rules, something you again fail to comprehend.
So try debating for yourself, I am not here to debate a pro UKIP article, making your view point even more absurd and again EFD are another euro septic party


Fuck me, hilarious

Norway only have a population of 5 million, no comparison to us.
Leaving EU would save business and us billions dodge.
Trade will not stop so that is one argument you can't keep using.
What is left is us paying billions into this corrupt dictatorship and having no control on our borders.
Sounds like a rather shitty deal to me!

Tommy Monk wrote:Norway only have a population of 5 million, no comparison to us.
Leaving EU would save business and us billions dodge.
Trade will not stop so that is one argument you can't keep using.
What is left is us paying billions into this corrupt dictatorship and having no control on our borders.
Sounds like a rather shitty deal to me!

People keep telling me it would save business, without explaining how.
You are right trade will not stop because we will have to abide by the rulings, if not trade will stop and we have to negotiate new trade deals something you cannot seem to work out.
Again Norway has to pay into the EU and they are not even in it, something again you seem to not have grasp to gain access to this market




After the 3.56bn euros rebate is taken into account (money the EU pays back to the UK, only the UK has this rebate), the UK's net contribution was 7.25bn euros (£5.85bn), according to the EU financial report. The British government estimates that that the single market brings between £30bn and £90bn a year into the UK economy: or between five and fifteen times the UK net contribution. Eurosceptics say UK contributes €4.7bn more then it receives. UK exports to the EU were worth nearly €12bn in September alone. Considering the UK spends £51bn a year in debt interest alone, the £5.86bn spent on getting access to the largest free market in the world could be seen as well worth it.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/6198708/EU-costs-Britain-118bn-a-year.html

https://fullfact.org/economy/cost_eu_membership_gross_net_contribution-30887

http://www.cityam.com/article/1396978666/blueprint-brexit-why-post-eu-prosperity-isnt-unthinkable