Let's Talk About America

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20th March 2014


Interesting facts - please discuss.

Really Glad Tom alias Matti does not run a business, it would be bankrupt in a  year with his methodology, it is comical to say the view on stats, saying he does not have to show why they are this way they speak for themselves.
Blimey I wonder if we propose running our economy that way

DOH

Again he keeps going on about some areas, ignoring ones where there is low immigration but still high crime rates or high immigration and low crime rates, or even showing that it is down to immigration that the crime rate is high. Thus again his assumption would be not only must the criminal be an immigrant with no evidence, but again that they live there.

Then he goes off the back of Black or Muslim, when many are British and have grown up with British cultures, so where does that leave his argument?
That the British culture is to blame with his logic?

BigAndy9 wrote:

Tommy Monk wrote:

No us guys didn't start slavery.
And are you really suggesting that a disproportionately high immigrant prison population in UK prisons today is a direct result of American slavery 200-300 years ago?

Of course it is - we took all their resources - that's why they are all running around in huge gangs, stabbing each other on London's streets with machetes in front of families.

By comparison, andy, the dominate British society is so altruistic??? Well, I believe the right-thinking Brits are altruistic. But there is a level of animalism down where you are, andy.

Original Quill wrote:

BigAndy9 wrote:


Of course it is - we took all their resources - that's why they are all running around in huge gangs, stabbing each other on London's streets with machetes in front of families.

By comparison, andy, the dominate British society is so altruistic???  Well, I believe the right-thinking Brits are altruistic.  But there is a level of animalism down where you are, andy.

I actually find that a very poor stereotype to be honest Quill and think the opposite with many Brits, again shown by their charitable ways, so I would say the minority are like that in this country not the dominant

Original Quill wrote:

Tommy Monk wrote:In UK we didn't have loads of blacks here before the relatively recent mass immigration policies, we didn't have a apartheid system, immigrants have been given the same legal status and opportunities afforded to everyone else.
However, areas with high immigrant/immigrant descendant populations have the highest crime, unemployment etc and are the so called 'most deprived'.
The prisons here show blacks being over represented by a factor of 7 compared to national population And muslims/asians by a factor of 3.
There is obviously a problem with many of them, their general attitude and/or behaviour but you only seem interested in looking for excuses and attributing blame elsewhere.

Let me ask you a few simple questions, Tom.
In the Americas, where slavery became its biggest, whose colonies were they? Was Virginia Dutch? Were the Carolinas French? No, that was England. When slavery started, those were English colonies, later becoming British.
It is totally false to try to disassociate England, or Britain, from the institution of slavery.
Yes, there is a problem with Blacks and incarceration in a white-dominated nation. The problem is called discrimination.

Britain didn't intent slavery, it ha, been going on for thousands of years and is still going on today.

Blacks were bought and sold by other blacks in Africa and by Muslim slave traders.

There are still examples of this today too.

Britain outlawed slavery about 200 years ago.


The blacks and asians in Britain today arrived by their own choice and free will over recent few decades.


They came for their own opportunistic reasons to further their own economic and life chances.


Given the same opportunities and access to jobs and schools as everyone else.


Some have done exceptionally well over the years, hugely successful, reaching the top levels of employment and government and being incredibly wealthy etc.


However, others have not.


The statistics shown in prison numbers for blacks and muslims/asians are startling and unexplainable by your pathetic slavery suggestion which has no relevance whatsoever in UK.

Dear me, evidence given to reasons of crime and yet he still offers no evidence himself just poor assumptions based off a time period and again off stats for that time.

Again did he ignore the Ministry of Justice report which backs up very much many of the things Quill had said?


No, that proves again Matti cannot provide evidence just poor baseless claims.


Is he claiming that blacks were welcomed with open arms in the 1950's and there has never been any race riots, due to discrimination or how institutions have been found guilty of racism to the point laws have needed to be introduced because of racism, how even the Governement has stopped the stop and search policy of suspected terrorism, as it yielded at of hundreds of thousands of stops not one single conviction for terrorism, how also again there is countless evidence that blacks and Asians are disproportionately stopped and searched and arrested by the Police?


Yet he ignores all these factors and claims there is no discrimination


I see he cannot back up his assumptions on crime levels in high immigration areas, or explain where high crime is and low immigration or high immigration and low crime rates.

Tommy Monk wrote:Britain didn't intent slavery, it ha, been going on for thousands of years and is still going on today.

Blacks were bought and sold by other blacks in Africa and by Muslim slave traders.

There are still examples of this today too.

Britain outlawed slavery about 200 years ago.

You are evading the point, Tom. Brits always try to hide in the abyss of world history.

But you guys did start slavery in the Americas...in your colonies. Prior to 1776, that was your doing. You outlawed slavery in the 19th-century; so did we.

But this whole phenomenon goes right back to British pockets. Granted, we've got the illness a bit worse, but you guys are trying, ain't ya?

I gotta go. Maybe I'll get back to you later in the day (it's still morning here).

And dodge, you are just trying to confuse the facts.
Blacks in UK prison are 7 times the national percentage population.
Muslims/asians are 3 times their national population percentage.
The areas with most immigrants/immigrant descendants are The places with most crime, unemployment etc.
I don't need to find excuses for this.
The figures speak for themselves.

And dodge, you are just trying to confuse the facts.
Blacks in UK prison are 7 times the national percentage population.
Muslims/asians are 3 times their national population percentage.
The areas with most immigrants/immigrant descendants are The places with most crime, unemployment etc.
I don't need to find excuses for this.
The figures speak for themselves.

Tommy Monk wrote:And dodge, you are just trying to confuse the facts.
Blacks in UK prison are 7 times the national percentage population.
Muslims/asians are 3 times their national population percentage.
The areas with most immigrants/immigrant descendants are The places with most crime, unemployment etc.
I don't need to find excuses for this.
The figures speak for themselves.

Again stats on prison, nothing else, just repeating himself, and ignoring all evidence presented to him


Epic fail


Off out

You have no 'evidence'.


Just excuses.

No you have no evidence as seen Matti, start presenting some, then we have a debate, just presenting stats without reasons behind them is pointless just like many of your posts


Laters, I hope to see something intelligent for a change from you when I am back


Good luck

And quill, todays UK prison population has nothing to do with slavery 200-300 years ago.
It is not only blacks over represented but muslims/asians too!

And dodge, I have given factual statistics as evidence, I don't need to 'explain' anything. The facts speak for themselves.

It is you who is trying to 'explain' them, or shall we say rather 'excuse' them.


My explanation for the higher numbers in prison is that those two groups have a higher propensity to commit crime and/or more serious crime, or multiple crimes that lead them to be in prison.

Dear me the stupidity is beyond belief

You are suggesting because they are black they commit crime and ignore all relevant reasons behind crimes like social factors and also ignoring all the discrimination as well , without again presenting a reason other than they are black, which is comical and shows you present an absurd argument which again does not explain high levels of crime in South America, where many are of white European descent, thus ignoring social and environmental factors.

So no the stats do not speak for themselves as already seen blacks are discriminated on arrests and on sentencing, thus you have to back up your reasons, not give crap copout answers.

So when I am back I expect to see something intelligent, because no science backs your idiotic views.

Present the methodology and science behind your claims, showing black brains are more criminally minded than whites for example


Take your time Matti and have a wonderful evening enjoying your prejudice hate

Tommy Monk wrote:I see fleakeeper pops up with nothing but insults again.
America and Australia are completely based on immigration, Most of the population being immigrants or of immigrant decent. Now that's gone well for the indigenous people hasn't it!
UK has been flooded with immigrants over last 20 years.
We get hundreds of thousands every year. And constantly told that we are getting highly skilled, hard working and well needed people coming.
But take London for example, the areas with most crime and 'depravatinn' are those full of these immigrants.
I can't really speak for America.

Tommy, I've been asking you for ages without a direct answer but now you have given me a answer indirectly and I've highlighted it above.

So crime is more associated with social deprivation and lack of opportunity and it has nothing to do with the colour of someone's skin?

So that explains the situation in the USA which is the subject of this thread.....correct?

These hard working and highly skilled people create their own "deprivation" as the reality is that many don't want to work at all and see crime as the way to go on.


That is the point I'm making.


This is down to the mind set of the people thenselves, they are the masters of their own destiny and the resulting situations are of their own choosing.


They are given the same opportunities as everyone else and they choose their way.



Criminal activity is down to choice.


Blacks and muslims/asians are over represented in prisons because they choose to do more and/or more serious crimes.

Actually breaking the law can become a necessity and not a choice like someone with no food would starve to death and thus need to steel in order to survive after exhausting all other options. This point is you are still saying it is down to them being black and Muslim as the reason now because of choice, ignoring social factors which can lead people into crime and even worse ignoring the countless evidence showing a poor disparity and bias against blacks and other monstrosities.

So again you failed to provide any root cause to why the number is higher within a certain time period. Thus your view is vry black and white and not researched again, it takes nothing into account from all the evidence presented but only the stats and now also choice but as seen sometimes it may not be a choice due a situation. What most of all is poor Matti is your total disregard for all the evidence backed by the Ministry of Justice and countless studies proving bias against blacks, from stop and search, to arrests, to longer sentences, none of which the white community has a stigma attached to it.


So it is mo good you ignoring countless evidence and just saying here is the stats, because people do commit crimes due to many factors, ignoring also the global crime rate which will differ from country to country. Plus the fact there is only one biological race, thus excluding any view this would be down to an ethnicity.


So as per usual you failed to provide failed substantiated answers backed up with evidence. The fact that many people who commit crime act individually themselves and crime differs with various nations around the world and also levels of crime, shows that there is no relevance to the skin colour of those in prison.
Neither nationality and ethnicity has little relevance except for hate crimes, though culture may play a part, but again everyone is individuals, thus factors have helped create environments for the increase possibility of higher crime.


The main root cause for crime:



Economic Factors/Poverty
Social Environment
Family Structures

So now you are trying to suggest that all blacks and muslims/asians are in prison because they were starving as they had no food and were forced to steal?

Tommy Monk wrote:And quill, todays UK prison population has nothing to do with slavery 200-300 years ago.
It is not only blacks over represented but muslims/asians too!

It has everything to do with it, Tom. You just refuse to face facts. Slavery → second-class citizenship → discrimination → loss of opportunity → crime.

Also discrimination → bias of jurors → disproportionate conviction rates, as we seen it the cases of Zimmerman vs. Marissa Alexander, as well as sentencing by white, elite judges.

Based upon your record, I am betting you will not even respond to those facts.

Haha--consequently I will take my SCORE in advance of your response.

Quill, the Blacks and muslims/asians in UK are nothing to do with slavery, They are not the victims, they (like everybody else) end up in prison for committing serious crimes.


They all have The same opportunities as everyone else, and in many cases are given extra support and opportunity. And while many do very well for themselves, others CHOOSE to pursue criminal activity and violence which lands them in prison.

Tommy Monk wrote:These hard working and highly skilled people create their own "deprivation" as the reality is that many don't want to work at all  and see crime as the way to go on.

That is the point I'm making.

I think your previous word was depravation, not deprivation.

Depravation means the corruption of or making something or someone evil: “A consequence of living with bad company was the depravation of character of the youth.”

Deprivation means not having basic or perceived basic requirements for living; lacking desired or necessary items or things: “Beggars live lives of deprivation.”

As an old professor of mine used to say, "If you don't know words, keep a dictionary handy."

Tommy Monk wrote:Quill, the Blacks and muslims/asians in UK are nothing to do with slavery, They are not the victims, they (like everybody else) end up in prison for committing serious crimes.


They all have The same opportunities as everyone else, and in many cases are given extra support and opportunity. And while many do very well for themselves, others CHOOSE to pursue criminal activity and violence which lands them in prison.

Well, this is a thread on America, Tom.  You are the one who has strayed off-point.

As for London, you and your conservative brethren are the ones who complain.  Every African gentleman or lady I have ever met in London is wonderful, polite and most educated.   With Muslims and Asians, the verdict is the same.  Wonderful and most civilized people.

Just in passing, Have you ever been to London?

I am well aware of the difference between the words 'depraved' and 'deprived'.


Have I ever been to London? Well actually, I've lived in London all my life, so you could say I know what I'm talking about.


The thread is about American prisons and ethnicity on death row.


Blacks make up a hugely disproportionate number, as they do throughout the whole prison system. I added that this is also seen in UK prison system.


Now it might be part of your leftie handbook to make excuses for this high level of criminal activity, but I suggest you look in your dictionary for the words 'naive' and 'bellend', which more accurately describe what you are being.

SCORE accepted, as you didn't address the facts.

Moving on, I somehow got the impression you were from South Africa. Well, while you are in London, look around. The people--including Africans--are wonderful.

As you accurately point out, this is a thread about America. Haha...my 'leftie handbook' tells me that America is not as concerned about terms like 'bellend,' preferring intelligent discussion over names and slogans. And I do appreciate your novel play with words, particularly in London.

But I'm not in the business of comedy.

Tommy Monk wrote:So now you are trying to suggest that all blacks and muslims/asians are in prison because they were starving as they had no food and were forced to steal?

Never stated all were, but the fact is again blacks are placed with stereotypes with crime/profiling even though by far whites commit the most crimes and get way disproportionate in less stop and searches, which is really absurd to place not only any stereotype on any group, because it is guilt by association but again based many other factors contribute to the rise. So we know the white population are more prolific illegal drug uses, blacks get way over stopped whites do not, thus the more stops you make on an ethnic group the more chances you will get hits but way less hits for whites, even though many will be illegal drug users. Not only that we then have many other social aspects that can lead to crime. Seriously do you know no history in this crime, do you know crime has been rife, where many had little skills. You see this is methodology, something you can seem to comprehend. Your view is based onto today and what is being offered to you is sound from Quill that discrimination can play many factors leading to even further crime, its called resentment, a lack of trust in the authorities. The fact is so many laws were in produced because many aspects of society were discrimination  
Now you can keep coming out with Bullshit to Quill about no discrimination for years to Blacks here, but it very much has been, here is one major area of the problem, discrimination


Also nobody is giving excuses but answers, if you think the Ministry of Justice has conducted its own inquiry and found massive discrimination, then you are the one excusing these issue.
Now nobody is deny there is a high level of Blacks and Muslims in jail, topped with the evidence whites get let off more times than they are, of which you have offered nothing to explain why it is high, where Quill and others and myself have. Again you see things in black and white.
If you are not going to address the points raised to you and keep avoiding them, then it is a pointless debate, but again it is many reasons why crimes happen and occur, you also need to see further data per crime to also see if patterns appear, but the reality is a majority Blacks are being discriminated and they live in some of the most deprived areas, thus it is in the nations better interest to change this, as we have done in the past to reduce crime, not look to castigate a group based on guilt by association, because that is what it boils down to here. You do not want immigrants here, you thus see all blacks as immigrants even 2nd, 3rd generations here and want to use a poor view you have come to, to use and promote yet more hate and fear among  people. This is easy to see because you avoid stating your beliefs to the reasons why it is higher and that speaks volumes  



Judges and magistrates are institutionally racist, consistently handing down more lenient sentences to white criminals, an official Government study has revealed.
The disturbing report, produced by the Ministry of Justice (MoJ), shows that black and Asian defendants are almost 20 per cent more likely to be sent to jail than those who are white. At the same time, the average prison sentence given to Caucasian criminals by courts in England and Wales is seven months shorter than those given to Afro-Caribbean offenders.

The report separates conviction and sentencing rates by comparable offences and pleas, excluding the possibility of the data being inaccurately skewed.  The Ministry of Justice said yesterday that ministers were aware “without a shadow of a doubt” that there were problems with the system, and said work had begun to address it as an area of “increasing concern”.

“The Criminal Justice System should work to promote equality, and should not discriminate against anyone because of their race,” the Criminal Justice Minister Damian Green said. “Targeting a person or a group based on their race or religion is unacceptable, it is divisive and harmful to individuals and has no place in a civilised society.”

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/courts-are-biased-against-blacks-with-white-offenders-less-likely-to-be-jailed-for-similar-crimes-says-official-report-8959804.html

SCORE to me actually as you have no facts, Just leftie waffle and speculation seeking to detract from the facts about blacks and muslims/asians clearly exhibiting a higher propensity towards criminal activity as seen by their resulting hugely disproportionate numbers in prisons both here in UK and in USA.


And dodge, even if your article claim of blacks being 20% more likely to be sent to jail is true, that doesn't explain the 7 times more blacks in prison than national population, or the over representation of muslim/asians either.

And It also doesn't explain the massively high numbers being before the courts in the first place.


To try to claim that the criminals are the victims of discrimination and racism is just nonsense.


I have already said that everyone has the same opportunities to education and work etc, and many are very successful in their chosen professions proving that this claim of endemic discrimination and racism is pure fantasy.


Deprived areas are the result of immigrant behaviour, not the cause.

Tommy Monk wrote:SCORE to me actually as you have no facts, Just leftie waffle and speculation seeking to detract from the facts about blacks and muslims/asians clearly exhibiting a higher propensity towards criminal activity as seen by their resulting hugely disproportionate numbers in prisons both here in UK and in USA.

That's how you judge, eh? I'm right because I say I'm right?? Well, even a clock is right twice a day.

Tommy Monk wrote:And dodge, even if your article claim of blacks being 20% more likely to be sent to jail is true, that doesn't explain the 7 times more blacks in prison than national population, or the over representation of muslim/asians either.

And It also doesn't explain the massively high numbers being before the courts in the first place.


To try to claim that the criminals are the victims of discrimination and racism is just nonsense.


I have already said that everyone has the same opportunities to education and work etc, and many are very successful in their chosen professions proving that this claim of endemic discrimination and racism is pure fantasy.


Deprived areas are the result of immigrant behaviour, not the cause.

This guy is losing all cred, Didge. I'm getting bored. See you around.

BigAndy9 wrote:

Lone Wolf wrote:
  

You DO talk a load of shite, Tommy...

And never once providing any actual evidence to support your juvenile tripe ~ go tell it to L'ilAndy, Shady, Drinky, "Stephen'", smelly' and Fuzzy' ~ no doubt they Will support your crazy brand of facsism..    

Shut up freak!

Found any kiddies down in the woods yet?

  ANDY'S been drinking the Brasso again, it would seem ! 

I believe this bit of libellous trash-talking from L'ilAndy should interest Ben, Veya, and Lurker..

NOT ONLY breaking the rules here ~ but breaking the law as well !

LOOKS like L'ilAndy wants to be banned today !  

I wonder if he, Tommy and 'smelly are running some sort of competition ?  

You can't get away from the disproportionate numbers in prison, not just in USA but similar pattern in UK too.
To just say this is because they are all disadvantaged and discriminated against is ridiculous and meaningless nonsensical waffle.
As many disadvantaged people don't turn to crime and others who could not be classed as disadvantaged sometimes do.
Also many blacks and muslim/asians are also highly successful which smashes the myth that all are discriminated against and victims of racism and that being the cause of such high criminal numbers.
The only real facts we have are the prison numbers and national numbers.

Dear me as Quill stats clearly, now Tom/Matti has now no credibility.

I never stated once this was the only reason, but it clearly is a factual reason as to why it is higher, because 20% are more likely to get a sentence, which because the amount of blacks prosecuted in crimes is less than whites means vastly more whites actually get off, because there arrest prosecution count is much higher overall than for blacks. Thus if whites are 20% less likely as a group to be sent to jail, being as their population percentage of white people is way higher means many more get off being sent to jail, way more. Seriously can you not even work that out, that means either vastly more whites should have been sent to prison, which reduces the disparity, or that many blacks should not have been sent to Jail. reducing this disparity Thus this is one of the factors behind the disparity, not all the factors but one of them. Again you ignore all these points because they show flaws in your argument, which as yet is only stats, with nothing to back your reasoning behind the stats, but we all know that that is lol  

Yet again no explanations or reasons to why it is higher presently and also clearly does not understand some areas are actually more deprived than others, which means people are placed at a disadvantage to where they live. You can argue the toss over the psychology behind root causes to why crime happens, but they have been test time and again, so again you ignore the facts and even worse now your maths is appalling.





Employment: People from many ethnic minorities are proportionately less likely to enter employment, be paid equal salaries, and be promoted, than their White British counterparts, meaning it is harder for them to escape poverty. For example, Pakistani, Bangladeshi and Black people are paid less than White British or Indian people with the same qualifications.

Location: Where you live has a huge impact on how likely you are to escape poverty. The likelihood of living in a deprived neighbourhood can vary greatly across different ethnic groups in the same place. .

Care: Changing demographics mean that caring responsibilities are going to alter in the near future. A study in Birmingham suggested that by 2026, 1 in 4 people over 65 will be from minority ethnic groups (the current figure is 1 in . Having caring responsibilities affects the type of work you can do. Demographic changes could increase the pressure on people from some ethnic groups to take low-paid work. They could also have big implications for care services providers.






Stop and search

People from BME groups are more likely to stopped-and-searched than white British people. The disparity differs between different stop-and-search powers. In 2012, research indicated that police are 28 times more likely to use ‘Section 60’ stop-and-search powers (where officers do not require suspicion of having being involved in a crime) against black people than white people.

Analysis of all stop and searches in 2010-2011 indicated that black people are seven times as likely, and Asians twice as likely as white people to be stopped-and-searched by the police. Stop and search practices are frequently ineffective. More than 90 per cent do not lead to an arrest.[1]

Arrests

In 2009/10 there were 1,386,030 arrests in England and Wales, compared to 1,429,785 in 2005/06. The overall number of arrests in this period consequently decreased and, within this, the number of people from a white group decreased. However, the number of people arrested from BME communities increased, by 5 per cent for black people and 13 per cent for Asian people.

In 2009/10 black people were 3.3 times more likely to be arrested than white people. Those from a mixed ethnic group were 2.3 times more likely to be arrested than white people.

According to the organisation Joint Enterprise – Not Guilty by Association (JENGbA), the joint enterprise doctrine (whereby people can be arrested and convicted of an offence, despite not having committed it, if they knew or are seen to have encouraged its act) is disproportionately applied against BME communities. Of 256 JENGbA was working with in 2011, 56 per cent were from BME communities.[2]

Sentencing

Certain BME groups are more likely than the white group to be sentenced to immediate custody for serious offences which can be tried in Crown Court (indictable offences). In 2010, 23 per cent of the white group convicted for indictable offences were sentenced to immediate custody, 27 per cent of Black people and 29 per cent of Asian people.

EMPLOYMENT IN THE CRIMINAL JUSTICE SYSTEM

Despite being over-represented in most stages of the criminal justice process, people from BME communities are under-represented in senior positions of employment. In 2011:

4 senior judges, out of 161, were known to be from a BME community.
1 senior civil servant out of 52, working for the National Offender Management Service (NOMS) was known to be from a BME community.
3 per cent of the senior police officers in England and Wales were from a BME community.[5]

http://www.irr.org.uk/research/statistics/criminal-justice/

Tommy Monk wrote:These hard working and highly skilled people create their own "deprivation" as the reality is that many don't want to work at all  and see crime as the way to go on.


That is the point I'm making.


This is down to the mind set of the people thenselves, they are the masters of their own destiny and the resulting situations are of their own choosing.


They are given the same opportunities as everyone else and they choose their way.



Criminal activity is down to choice.


Blacks and muslims/asians are over represented in prisons because they choose to do more and/or more serious crimes.

But it's not down the colour of someone's skin is it Tommy? It's down to social deprivation, social exclusion and lack of opportunity for so many young people.

Did you know that Glasgow is the most violent places in the UK ahead of London and Belfast and there ain't that many blacks involved. Glasgow is also one of the most deprived area in the UK so I'm sure you can see what I'm getting at now.

Nothing to do with skin colour.

Irn Bru wrote:

Tommy Monk wrote:These hard working and highly skilled people create their own "deprivation" as the reality is that many don't want to work at all  and see crime as the way to go on.


That is the point I'm making.


This is down to the mind set of the people thenselves, they are the masters of their own destiny and the resulting situations are of their own choosing.


They are given the same opportunities as everyone else and they choose their way.



Criminal activity is down to choice.


Blacks and muslims/asians are over represented in prisons because they choose to do more and/or more serious crimes.

But it's not down the colour of someone's skin is it Tommy? It's down to social deprivation, social exclusion and lack of opportunity for so many young people.

Did you know that Glasgow is the most violent places in the UK ahead of London and Belfast and there ain't that many blacks involved. Glasgow is also one of the most deprived area in the UK so I'm sure you can see what I'm getting at now.

Nothing to do with skin colour.

What is Coatbridge like Irn?

 

I RECKON that BigAndy, Tommy Monk and smelly_bandit are running a private little bet/competition between themselves ~ to see which of them gets kicked off of here first !!!

NO MATTER how rude and crude I may get in my more-targeted abuses at those people who have been attacking me recently ~ I have still NEVER got within cooee on a clear cold day of anything that coterie carry on with on a daily basis (with Baggs and Fuzzy' as their more-than-willing apprerentices ~ but not quite making the grade, as yet..).     

L'ilAndy really went OTT last night ~ not only with his wild abuses against everybody on this thread who questioned him and Tommy making up lies on the run ~ but actually accused me of being a paedophile at one stage !!  

NOT because of any insults against them, mind ~ but I was simply questioning Tommy's statements claimed as baseless "facts" !   

IF this most recent behaviour by BigAndy over this past few days isn't enough to get him banned, I have to wonder what is ?

Scottish prison population has remained more or less constant in last 15-20 years at around 6000-7000, NI saw a reduction from 1500 down to about 1000 before slowly creeping back up to about 1500 over the same period. While England & Wales saw the number more than double over this time from about 40,000 to over 85,000.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/spl/hi/pop_ups/06/uk_prisons_in_the_uk/html/1.stm


With indigenous white English being under represented by % compared to national numbers and blacks, muslims/asians being vastly over represented, contributing to this rise which coincidentally rises in line with immigration rises.

Scotland and NI don't get much immigration which would explain why their numbers have remained constant.



And fleakeeper, I don't know what you are going on about, I am sharing my opinion which is as valid as yours or anybody elses.

I am also backing it up with facts where necessary.

You may not like what I'm saying, but maybe you should try to actually debate the points raised instead of just popping up with direct insults.

Nobody made you judge, jury and executioner, And besides, I have done nothing to warrant any sanction or ban so debate or piss off.

What facts have you backed up other than stats?

None Tommy/Matti, you still have not provided any reasons for this disparity, where others have. You can not dispute part of the disparity is created with a bias that lets off many whites without a prison sentence or how social factors can increase the possibility of crime to an area.
So all you are doing is presenting stats, that is not debating about why the stats show a disparity, unless you think black people are biologically different to white people in that blacks brains makes them susceptible to committing a crime, because it would be hardwired to commit a crime, because thus all black people would commit crimes with view, when clearly many do not. So you are not accepting the view of the many factors that lead to crime and also discrimination, what is your argument here can only lead to the belief you think black people are more criminally minded, when no such science or any evidence that the brain has complete different abilities in different ethnic groups, does it. So you again failed to offer any debate, but avoid answer your views to the disparity and also ignore many other facts

Didge wrote:What facts have you backed up other than stats?
None Tommy/Matti, you still have not provided any reasons for this disparity, where others have. You can not dispute part of the disparity is created with a bias that lets off many whites without a prison sentence or how social factors can increase the possibility of crime to an area.
So all you are doing is presenting stats, that is not debating about why the stats show a disparity, unless you think black people are biologically different to white people in that blacks brains makes them susceptible to committing a crime, because it would be hardwired to commit a crime, because thus all black people would commit crimes with view, when clearly many do not. So you are not accepting the view of the many factors that lead to crime and also discrimination, what is your argument here can only lead to the belief you think black people are more criminally minded, when no such science or any evidence that the brain has complete different abilities in different ethnic groups, does it. So you again failed to offer any debate, but avoid answer your views to the disparity and also ignore many other facts

The stats ARE the facts you idiot!



All you have provided is leftie waffle, deflection and excuses.


The facts/stats on prison numbers in Scotland and NI remaining overall fairly constant while having relatively little immigration over the period while England doubled over the same period while having loads of immigrants also shows a correlation.


You try to say these high numbers are result of some endemic racist conspiracy against foreigners, and a result of these people having such a hard time being all so deprived and all that. While ignoring the huge numbers of law abiding and highly successful blacks and muslim/asians who have no tales of woe.

You also ignore that areas become deprived and crime ridden AFTER these immigrants more in and start ruining it for themselves. Although we are constantly told how all the immigrants are highly skilled, hard working and well needed to do all the jobs we don't want to do bullshit!



You talk shit Didge, as proven time and time again!

Hilarious, he still provides no reasons.

He ignores other facts as.

The fact is as seen a part of the disparity is down to bias in sentencing, this is an undeniable fact, thus part of that disparity thus has reason behind some of the disparity of those numbers in the stats. Now nobody is claiming that is the sole reason again, which you as usual ignore because it does not fit to your illogical views you have of racial groups of people.

Your claim to areas where immigrants have moved in, where they are already had high crimes rates before they did shows you have no understanding about deprived areas, where as again shown such areas because of the environment increases the possibility of more people committing crime. You then make now a divergence onto immigrants, when the debate is about Black people, which includes British Blacks and foreign blacks, so what does immigration mean to your view of blacks in prison, unless you see them all as immigrants, which would also prove your racial poor views you have of Black people.


Thus what did you offer to back up your points?

Zero yet again


The fact you also cannot ignore is that crime has consistently overall fallen after an increase in immigrants coming here and you can use the latest investigation where the Police has lost credibility, but because we also have British Crime Survey (BCS), and both show a decline in crime to the lowest point in 25 years. So on all factors your view points are illogical, ignore facts, ignore what we know about the causes of crime and to top it all off, still again make any view on why you think there is a disparity.


So stop avoiding the debate all the time, and for once explain why you think there is a disparity.


I mean I really am getting bored at your avoidance, hence why Quill did also, because it is boring debating an idiot, you never backs up anything and ignores many other facts


Last chance to reply with an answer, otherwise it is pointless replying further to an idiot

Hilarious, just more denial of the facts and speculation based waffle.



Your sentencing claim is unfounded as it may compare similar crimes in a limited amount of cases but did not take into account other mitigating factors or previous criminal history of each person involved.


And still nothing about constant level of prison population in Scotland and NI over last 20 years while having little immigration, when England who have seen the overwhelming vast majority of immigrants has seen the prison population more than double in this time and The resulting over representation of blacks and muslim/asians!


Just face facts!

Blacks and muslims/asians are more likely to end up in jail because they are more likely to be committing crime.


It is as simple as that!

How about if those figures were done according to income and level of housing etc, and it turned out there were exactly the same?

Sassy wrote:How about if those figures were done according to income and level of housing etc, and it turned out there were exactly the same?  

Sassy I doubt he is able to answer that, way above his intellect and as seen he cannot even provide a reason himself for the disparity and avoids it all costs, hence why is pointless debating him further when he lives in cloud cuckoo land, hence why I gave him one more try to answer.
He understand nothing about crime, again he looks at things only in black or white.

I know, sad isn't it.

Lone Wolf wrote:

L'ilAndy really went OTT last night ~ not only with his wild abuses against everybody on this thread who questioned him and Tommy making up lies on the run ~ but actually accused me of being a paedophile at one stage !!  

Last night was pub night, wolf. Didn't you notice they were all baying at the moon?

Frankly, I just went to bed.

Speculation and leftie waffle.
Many poor and so called 'deprived' don't get involved in crime while other fairly well off and not in the least 'deprived' may well do.
In fact you are more likely by percentage population to prison if you are an MP than anyone else so where does that leave your bullshit?!
You lefties are bending over so far to excuse the obvious that you are twisting yourselves in knots!
Pathetic!
Now I predict dodge will declare himself the winner after ignoring all the facts as part of his denial complex, and run away a usual!

And I previously gave my reason for The over representation.......
"
Blacks and muslims/asians are more likely to end up in jail because they are more likely to be committing crime.
It is as simple as that!"

I posed a question. Can you answer it or not?

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That is not a reason to why there is a disparity between blacks and whites ending up in jail, that is a perception made over current prison numbers of those in jail. That is off percentages a view based on the chances of those committing a crime, it does not explain why though more would commit crimes dummy.
There has to be a reason why you think blacks and Muslims are in your view going to commit more crime. There has to be reasons behind this view you think they would, as we know the numbers and we can explain some of the disparity in numbers with poor bias, but not why they would commit a crime dummy. Seriously stop avoiding the question why there is a disparity



DOH


Like I said sassy, thick as shit poor Tommy.

I gave my answer above, can you read or not?

If you have a theory then back it up with some facts or it is just speculation.

.You can't demand that I provide facts to back up one of your theories, that is not how this game works.

Tommy Monk wrote:And I previously gave my reason for The over representation.......
"
Blacks and muslims/asians are more likely to end up in jail because they are more likely to be committing crime.
It is as simple as that!"

Posted again for The hard of seeing......

Hilarious, that is not a reason to why blacks at present commit more crimes per percentage of population compared to whites, even though whites commit by far the most crimes in the country.

You are being the worst copout and coming out with the worst excuses to even come out with a reason for this disparity.

Let me know when you actually have a valid reply and answer


Bye

It's you who have been coming out with the multitude of excuses and leftie waffle that I have seen in a long time!
All have been shown to be rubbish and now you continue ignoring the cold hard facts and try to run away!
Hilarious!