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Do you argue more on forums than in real life?

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Post by Syl Thu Apr 01, 2021 12:31 pm

It's probable more subjects are up for discussion on a forum, and obviously we are communicating with people from different backgrounds and different cultures.
So, it wouldn't be surprising if you crossed swords more with people online than you would when discussing topics with family and friends in your local area.
But are you more patient and restrained with people when you discuss, argue, or debate a topic if someone is in the same room?

For instance....when (in the real world) did a difference of opinion end in name calling?

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Post by Syl Thu Apr 01, 2021 12:34 pm

To add...this isn't to have a go at any particular poster here, this has to be the second most civil forum I have ever posted on in 14 years.

I doubt anyone on any forum has never been in a heated debate and not thrown the odd insult about...me included. Laughing

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Post by Maddog Thu Apr 01, 2021 3:10 pm

Syl wrote:It's probable more subjects are up for discussion on a forum, and obviously we are communicating with people from different backgrounds and different cultures.
So, it wouldn't be surprising if you crossed swords more with people online than you would when discussing topics with family and friends in your local area.
But are  you more patient and restrained with people when you discuss, argue, or debate a topic if someone is in the same room?

For instance....when (in the real world) did a difference of opinion end in name calling?

I'm far more patient, but it's a two way street. People are far more patient with me. Almost everyone that knows me, is also on my Facebook page. They already know my positions so they typically don't go "there".

The bar I stopped off at last night has a sign on the door and behind the bar stating "no politics or religion".

I know a lot of other places that will not put the news on TV. It's a no no.

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Post by Syl Thu Apr 01, 2021 4:16 pm

Maddog wrote:
Syl wrote:It's probable more subjects are up for discussion on a forum, and obviously we are communicating with people from different backgrounds and different cultures.
So, it wouldn't be surprising if you crossed swords more with people online than you would when discussing topics with family and friends in your local area.
But are  you more patient and restrained with people when you discuss, argue, or debate a topic if someone is in the same room?

For instance....when (in the real world) did a difference of opinion end in name calling?

I'm far more patient, but it's a two way street. People are far more patient with me. Almost everyone that knows me, is also on my Facebook page. They already know my positions so they typically don't go "there".

The bar I stopped off at last night has a sign on the door and behind the bar stating "no politics or religion".

I know a lot of other places that will not put the news on TV. It's a no no.  


My pet hate is TV's in bars, I avoid them like the plague.

I'm not sure about the notice behind the bar. The last job I had was working behind the bar in a country pub. After the lunches were over, a few of the customers, mainly retired men, loved to have lively discussions, not much was off topic.
No one came to blows and because they were all gentlemen, not much swearing or insults were bandied about either.


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Post by Maddog Thu Apr 01, 2021 4:22 pm

Syl wrote:
Maddog wrote:

I'm far more patient, but it's a two way street. People are far more patient with me. Almost everyone that knows me, is also on my Facebook page. They already know my positions so they typically don't go "there".

The bar I stopped off at last night has a sign on the door and behind the bar stating "no politics or religion".

I know a lot of other places that will not put the news on TV. It's a no no.  


My pet hate is TV's in bars, I avoid them like the plague.

I'm not sure about the notice behind the bar. The last job I had was working behind the bar in a country pub. After the lunches were over, a few of the customers, mainly retired men, loved to have lively discussions, not much was off topic.
No one came to blows and because they were all gentlemen, not much swearing or insults were bandied about either.


Yeah, well the world is probably less civilized now.

In fact, even the idea of gentlemen has sexist overtones now.


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Post by Syl Thu Apr 01, 2021 4:26 pm

Why should the idea of being, or calling someone a gentleman, have sexist overtones?


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Post by Maddog Thu Apr 01, 2021 4:37 pm

Syl wrote:Why should the idea of being, or calling someone  a gentleman, have sexist overtones?


It shouldn't.

Lots of things happening now that shouldn't be, in my opinion.

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Post by Syl Thu Apr 01, 2021 4:50 pm

Maddog wrote:
Syl wrote:Why should the idea of being, or calling someone  a gentleman, have sexist overtones?


It shouldn't.

Lots of things happening now that shouldn't be, in my opinion.  

Maybe on social media where all the anti-independent thinkers gather, I only do a couple of forums so I don't mix with people who wear faux outrage like a second skin.

In real life, seriously, have you ever felt you can't say what you say in public...cos I haven't.


That does bring me back to my original question though, maybe some people argue more online because they feel their views are being stilted in real life.

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Post by Maddog Thu Apr 01, 2021 5:33 pm

Syl wrote:
Maddog wrote:

It shouldn't.

Lots of things happening now that shouldn't be, in my opinion.  

Maybe on social media where all the anti-independent thinkers gather,  I only do a couple of forums so I don't mix with people who wear faux outrage like a second skin.

In real life, seriously, have you ever felt you can't say what you say in public...cos I haven't.


That does bring me back to my original question though,  maybe some people argue more online because they feel their views are being stilted in real life.

It's not just social media, but that's where your words can come back and bite you.

You can say what you want to people closer to you. But post the wrong thing and it's part of the record for ever.

So yeah, I can have more frank conversations in person.

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Post by Syl Thu Apr 01, 2021 5:52 pm

Maddog wrote:
Syl wrote:

Maybe on social media where all the anti-independent thinkers gather,  I only do a couple of forums so I don't mix with people who wear faux outrage like a second skin.

In real life, seriously, have you ever felt you can't say what you say in public...cos I haven't.


That does bring me back to my original question though,  maybe some people argue more online because they feel their views are being stilted in real life.

It's not just social media, but that's where your words can come back and bite you.  

You can say what you want to people closer to you.  But post the wrong thing and it's part of the record for ever.  

So yeah, I can have more frank conversations in person.

I don't think I change much, I am pretty straight talking both on and off forums.

I seldom argue online or off....apart from with my OH, we probably have at least one good row every day. Do you argue more on forums than in real life? 2347854014

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Post by Maddog Fri Apr 02, 2021 12:11 am

Syl wrote:
Maddog wrote:

It's not just social media, but that's where your words can come back and bite you.  

You can say what you want to people closer to you.  But post the wrong thing and it's part of the record for ever.  

So yeah, I can have more frank conversations in person.

I don't think I change much, I am pretty straight talking  both on and off forums.

I seldom argue online or off....apart from with my OH, we probably have at least one good row every day. Do you argue more on forums than in real life? 2347854014

See, you're taking it out on him instead of strangers online.

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Post by Syl Fri Apr 02, 2021 12:25 pm

Maddog wrote:
Syl wrote:

I don't think I change much, I am pretty straight talking  both on and off forums.

I seldom argue online or off....apart from with my OH, we probably have at least one good row every day. Do you argue more on forums than in real life? 2347854014

See, you're taking it out on him instead of strangers online.  


Nah, he gives as good as he gets.

I find it odd when people who have been together decades say they have never had a row with their partner.
They are either lying ... or they just don't speak much to each other, it's easy not to row if you ignore one another. silent

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Post by Maddog Fri Apr 02, 2021 4:46 pm

Syl wrote:
Maddog wrote:

See, you're taking it out on him instead of strangers online.  


Nah, he gives as good as he gets.

I find it odd when people who have been together decades say they have never had a row with their partner.
They are either lying ... or they just don't speak much to each other, it's easy not to row if you ignore one another. silent

That's how me and my ex stopped fighting. I basically didn't talk to her unless it was about the kids. We spent the last few years co parenting from the same house.

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Post by Syl Fri Apr 02, 2021 4:50 pm

Maddog wrote:
Syl wrote:


Nah, he gives as good as he gets.

I find it odd when people who have been together decades say they have never had a row with their partner.
They are either lying ... or they just don't speak much to each other, it's easy not to row if you ignore one another. silent

That's how me and my ex stopped fighting. I basically didn't talk to her unless it was about the kids. We spent the last few years co parenting from the same house.

It's sad when people stop talking....I couldn't live like that.

We have a couple of neighbours we call them the 'Weathervanes'. In summer he will go out in the garden she goes in....when she comes out he goes in, just like weathervanes.
They never communicate.

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Post by Maddog Fri Apr 02, 2021 4:55 pm

Syl wrote:
Maddog wrote:

That's how me and my ex stopped fighting. I basically didn't talk to her unless it was about the kids. We spent the last few years co parenting from the same house.

It's sad when people stop talking....I couldn't live like that.

We have a couple of neighbours we call them the 'Weathervanes'. In summer he will go out  in the garden she goes in....when she comes out he goes in, just like weathervanes.
They never communicate.

It was sad. I'd like to think my girls have done so well in life because I stuck around long enough to give them sort of a stable beginning. They seem to have learned something from their parents failures as a couple and are not only successful but in great relationships with fine men.

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Post by Syl Fri Apr 02, 2021 5:03 pm

Maddog wrote:
Syl wrote:

It's sad when people stop talking....I couldn't live like that.

We have a couple of neighbours we call them the 'Weathervanes'. In summer he will go out  in the garden she goes in....when she comes out he goes in, just like weathervanes.
They never communicate.

It was sad.  I'd like to think my girls have done so well in life because I stuck around long enough to give them sort of a stable beginning. They seem to have learned something from their parents failures as a couple and are not only successful but in great relationships with fine men.  

I'm sure you did a great job Maddog, your girls are proof of that.

Kids weather a lot as long as they are secure in the love of their parents....even one parent.

My mum brought us up single handed after my dad left. I was 5, and when I say left, he not only left the marriage, he never saw his kids again....now that IS a useless parent.

One good parent is all a kid need to flourish, yours had two, albeit not together, but they have thrived as the pics you post show clearly.

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Post by Maddog Fri Apr 02, 2021 5:08 pm

Syl wrote:
Maddog wrote:

It was sad.  I'd like to think my girls have done so well in life because I stuck around long enough to give them sort of a stable beginning. They seem to have learned something from their parents failures as a couple and are not only successful but in great relationships with fine men.  

I'm sure you did a great job Maddog, your girls are proof of that.

Kids weather a lot as long as they are secure in the love of their parents....even one parent.

My mum brought us up single handed after my dad left. I was 5, and when I say left, he not only left the marriage, he never saw his kids again....now that IS a useless parent.

One good parent is all a kid need to flourish, yours had two, albeit not together, but they have thrived as the pics you post show clearly.

I never understood a man like that. I literally couldn't walk away from my girls. I stayed as long as I could.

Had there been no "oops" my ex would have just been another girl on a long list of girls. Her I could have walked away from.

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Post by Syl Fri Apr 02, 2021 5:19 pm

Maddog wrote:
Syl wrote:

I'm sure you did a great job Maddog, your girls are proof of that.

Kids weather a lot as long as they are secure in the love of their parents....even one parent.

My mum brought us up single handed after my dad left. I was 5, and when I say left, he not only left the marriage, he never saw his kids again....now that IS a useless parent.

One good parent is all a kid need to flourish, yours had two, albeit not together, but they have thrived as the pics you post show clearly.

I never understood a man like that. I literally couldn't walk away from my girls. I stayed as long as I could.

Had there been no "oops" my ex would have just been another girl on a long list of girls.  Her I could have walked away from.  

Sometimes 'ooops' relationships work, I suppose every relationship undertaken is a gamble.
It's a pity you didn't remain on good terms though.

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Post by Maddog Fri Apr 02, 2021 5:28 pm

Syl wrote:
Maddog wrote:

I never understood a man like that. I literally couldn't walk away from my girls. I stayed as long as I could.

Had there been no "oops" my ex would have just been another girl on a long list of girls.  Her I could have walked away from.  

Sometimes 'ooops' relationships work,  I suppose every relationship undertaken is a gamble.
It's a pity you didn't remain on good terms though.

Oh, we are on great terms now. Me and her 2nd new husband get along great. We are even Facebook friends.

Being 60 miles apart has been great for both of us.

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Post by Syl Fri Apr 02, 2021 5:30 pm

Maddog wrote:
Syl wrote:

Sometimes 'ooops' relationships work,  I suppose every relationship undertaken is a gamble.
It's a pity you didn't remain on good terms though.

Oh, we are on great terms now. Me and her 2nd new husband get along great. We are even Facebook friends.  

Being 60 miles apart has been great for both of us.  

That's good.

I always wonder how people can end up hating someone they once loved....sometimes it's best to go separate ways before the rot sets in. Twisted Evil

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Post by Tommy Monk Fri Apr 02, 2021 5:43 pm




If somebody asks me my opinion then I will give it honestly although sometimes very tactfully and diplomatically... And then if my opinion is questioned then I will argue the reasons why...


But vast majority of people I know, think much the same as me anyway, so never any arguments.



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Post by Syl Fri Apr 02, 2021 11:20 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:


If somebody asks me my opinion then I will give it honestly although sometimes very tactfully and diplomatically... And then if my opinion is questioned then I will argue the reasons why...


But vast majority of people I know, think much the same as me anyway, so never any arguments.


Yes I can see that, you seldom argue on the forum, you stick to your guns.....right or wrong.

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Post by Tommy Monk Fri Apr 02, 2021 11:38 pm

Syl wrote:
Tommy Monk wrote:


If somebody asks me my opinion then I will give it honestly although sometimes very tactfully and diplomatically... And then if my opinion is questioned then I will argue the reasons why...


But vast majority of people I know, think much the same as me anyway, so never any arguments.


Yes I can see that, you seldom argue on the forum, you stick to your guns.....right or wrong.


Can I just say, some may think I'm wrong about some things, but all that really means is they don't agree with me and they have ignored all the reasons/evidence that I have provided to back up said opinion...



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Post by Syl Fri Apr 02, 2021 11:55 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:
Syl wrote:
Yes I can see that, you seldom argue on the forum, you stick to your guns.....right or wrong.


Can I just say, some may think I'm wrong about some things, but all that really means is they don't agree with me and they have ignored all the reasons/evidence that I have provided to back up said opinion...


Some people wont be budged  no matter how many links, facts, data, is offered in evidence to the contrary.


Sometimes there is no right or wrong, especially if people are simply  offering their opinion, we all have one, they dont all have to tally.

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Post by Tommy Monk Sat Apr 03, 2021 1:28 am




Exactly... And I only offer my opinion which I always back up with sound reasoning/evidence...



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Post by Syl Sat Apr 03, 2021 11:46 am

Tommy Monk wrote:


Exactly... And I only offer my opinion which I always back up with sound reasoning/evidence...



Yes that's true.

Of course different surveys show different results. We have shown different facts and figures pertaining to Covid. I know I am right you think you are, and we wont agree....and that's fine. Wink
I dont recall us ever getting nasty with each other though, and that was my point really.

In real life people tend to accept others views without always agreeing. On forums it seems people will fight to the death to be proved right. Rolling Eyes

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Post by Tommy Monk Sat Apr 03, 2021 3:55 pm





I have shown the correct facts and figures...


lol!



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Post by Original Quill Sat Apr 03, 2021 4:33 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:I have shown the correct facts and figures...

Rarely tommy, and when you do you don't understand them. Mad

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Post by Tommy Monk Sat Apr 03, 2021 4:37 pm





...said the liar...



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Post by Maddog Sat Apr 03, 2021 4:42 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:



...said the liar...



You left off pathological.

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Post by Tommy Monk Sat Apr 03, 2021 4:44 pm




I was going to put 'compulsive'...



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Post by Syl Sat Apr 03, 2021 5:24 pm

So the name calling begins....and we were doing so well. Rolling Eyes

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Post by Original Quill Sat Apr 03, 2021 6:13 pm

Yes, it is pointless.  They are afraid to debate honestly, so they resort to another tactic: "name calling".  One has to abandon them, as dishonest brokers of any information.  Mad

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Post by Maddog Sun Apr 04, 2021 2:25 am

Original Quill wrote:Yes, it is pointless.  They are afraid to debate honestly, so they resort to another tactic: "name calling".  One has to abandon them, as dishonest brokers of any information.  Mad

You're a fucking liar. What's the point of debate with someone like you?

I have no problems with debating people. You can't seem to understand it's personal between you and I. I think you're a trash human.

Everyone else in here is someone I may or may not agree with, but they aren't trash humans.

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Post by Syl Sun Apr 04, 2021 11:27 am

I think the problem with you two is you have taken the personal insults much further than most people do.
Some things said (or written) are not forgotten, and when wives and daughters are brought into the mix in a disparaging way, grudges are born and fester.

Add to that you don't agree politically on anything, and you just rub each other up the wrong way in general, it's not surprising when the insults start.

You are (in my opinion) both as bad as each other.... Do you argue more on forums than in real life? 2396444674

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Post by Maddog Sun Apr 04, 2021 4:01 pm

Syl wrote:I think the problem with you two is you have taken the personal insults much further than most people do.
Some things said (or written) are not forgotten, and when wives and daughters are brought into the mix in a disparaging way, grudges are born and fester.

Add to that you don't agree politically on anything, and you just rub each other up the wrong way in general, it's not surprising when the insults start.

You are (in my opinion) both as bad as each other.... Do you argue more on forums than in real life? 2396444674

The problem is I can't stand liars.

And arrogance to a degree.

The rest I can handle. Water off a ducks back.

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Post by Maddog Sun Apr 04, 2021 4:05 pm

I want to reiterate this again. Quill holds a special place. It's not because of his views. People keep stating that and ignoring what I have said numerous times in the past. He fabricates stories and gaslights. That has nothing to do with his political stance. People from all walks of life can do that.

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Post by Original Quill Sun Apr 04, 2021 4:22 pm

Maddog wrote:I have no problems with debating people.

I wouldn't know. You've never debated on this site. You set a lot of gotcha! traps for people, but otherwise you seem to have no depth to your appreciation of complex matters. You go directly to argument ad hominem, and forget the topic altogether.

Indicative is your impatience with longer posts. You have no intellectual energy with which to work through something and understand it. Indeed, you try to cover your ineptitude by using your own intellectual fatigue as an accusation...as if, when something can't be stated in a three-word post, it is evidence of an attempt to trick you. Very Trumpian.

I suspect that is why you fail to understand subtler points around the fringes of libertarianism...or anything, for that matter. You are too quick to abandon comprehension, and go right to combat.

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"What's yours is mine, and what's mine is mine." ― Old Republican proverb.

"I don't stand by anything."  ― Donald Trump, interview with John Dickerson, 5.1.17...

“That's libertarians for you — anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.” ― Kim Stanley Robinson, Green Mars (1993).

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Post by Original Quill Sun Apr 04, 2021 4:28 pm

Maddog wrote:I want to reiterate this again. Quill holds a special place.  It's not because of his views. People keep stating that and ignoring what I have said numerous times in the past. He fabricates stories and gaslights.  That has nothing to do with his political stance. People from all walks of life can do that.

What you are doing is covering your own intellectual exhaustion. Just because you don't understand something does not mean others don't. Don't get angry...you belong in the lower division sandbox.

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“Little thieves are hanged, but great thieves are praised.” — Old Russian proverb, offered by Vladimir Putin to Donald Trump, Helsinki, July, 2018.

"What's yours is mine, and what's mine is mine." ― Old Republican proverb.

"I don't stand by anything."  ― Donald Trump, interview with John Dickerson, 5.1.17...

“That's libertarians for you — anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.” ― Kim Stanley Robinson, Green Mars (1993).

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Post by Maddog Sun Apr 04, 2021 4:34 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Maddog wrote:I have no problems with debating people.

I wouldn't know.  You've never debated on this site.  You set a lot of gotcha! traps for people, but otherwise you seem to have no depth to your appreciation of complex matters.  You go directly to argument ad hominem, and forget the topic altogether.

Indicative is your impatience with longer posts.  You have no intellectual energy with which to work through something and understand it.  Indeed, you try to cover your ineptitude by using your own intellectual fatigue as an accusation...as if, when something can't be stated in a three-word post, it is evidence of an attempt to trick you.  Very Trumpian.

I suspect that is why you fail to understand subtler points around the fringes of libertarianism...or anything, for that matter.  You are too quick to abandon comprehension, and go right to combat.

Nah, you're reading me wrong old man.

I don't like liars.

I doubt you even realize how often you fabricate stories.

That happens when these issues are pathological..

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Post by Original Quill Sun Apr 04, 2021 5:14 pm

Maddog wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

I wouldn't know. You've never debated on this site. You set a lot of gotcha! traps for people, but otherwise you seem to have no depth to your appreciation of complex matters. You go directly to argument ad hominem, and forget the topic altogether.

Indicative is your impatience with longer posts. You have no intellectual energy with which to work through something and understand it. Indeed, you try to cover your ineptitude by using your own intellectual fatigue as an accusation...as if, when something can't be stated in a three-word post, it is evidence of an attempt to trick you. Very Trumpian.

I suspect that is why you fail to understand subtler points around the fringes of libertarianism...or anything, for that matter. You are too quick to abandon comprehension, and go right to combat.

Nah, you're reading me wrong old man.

I don't like liars.

I doubt you even realize how often you fabricate stories.

That happens when these issues are pathological..

I'm not reading you wrong. You lack intellectual energy, and you pursue the course of least resistance: personal attack.

With such inflexibility, you refuse to learn…as if that's a status beneath you. Instead of learning flexibly, you demonize those who confront you, and who present you with problems in your thesis. If someone is a particular nemesis in that regard, your fight becomes a war.

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"What's yours is mine, and what's mine is mine." ― Old Republican proverb.

"I don't stand by anything."  ― Donald Trump, interview with John Dickerson, 5.1.17...

“That's libertarians for you — anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.” ― Kim Stanley Robinson, Green Mars (1993).

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Post by Syl Sun Apr 04, 2021 5:49 pm

So why do you both respond to each other all the time?

It's obviously not done jokingly, whether you admit it or not you really get to each other, and I bet you sometimes log off and still fume about what was said.....you will both deny that though. Rolling Eyes

In real life I would bet you avoid conflict with someone you dont like....you certainly wouldn't go and seek out that person to have another round of abuse thrown and given....so why do it on a forum?

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Post by Maddog Sun Apr 04, 2021 6:22 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Maddog wrote:

Nah, you're reading me wrong old man.

I don't like liars.  

I doubt you even realize how often you fabricate stories.

That happens when these issues are pathological..

I'm not reading you wrong.  You lack intellectual energy, and you pursue the course of least resistance: personal attack.

With such inflexibility, you refuse to learn…as if that's a status beneath you.  Instead of learning flexibly, you demonize those who confront you, and who present you with problems in your thesis.  If someone is a particular nemesis in that regard, your fight becomes a war.

Learning?

From you?

Please.

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Post by Maddog Sun Apr 04, 2021 6:24 pm

Syl wrote:So why do you both respond to each other all the time?

It's obviously not done jokingly, whether you admit it or not you really get to each other, and I bet you sometimes log off and still fume about what was said.....you will both deny that though. Rolling Eyes

In real life I would bet you avoid conflict with someone you dont like....you certainly wouldn't go and seek out that person to have another round of abuse thrown and given....so why do it on a forum?

I like punishing myself. Cool

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Post by Syl Sun Apr 04, 2021 6:42 pm

Maddog wrote:
Syl wrote:So why do you both respond to each other all the time?

It's obviously not done jokingly, whether you admit it or not you really get to each other, and I bet you sometimes log off and still fume about what was said.....you will both deny that though. Rolling Eyes

In real life I would bet you avoid conflict with someone you dont like....you certainly wouldn't go and seek out that person to have another round of abuse thrown and given....so why do it on a forum?

I like punishing myself. Cool

Or you enjoy it. Basketball

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Post by Maddog Sun Apr 04, 2021 7:08 pm

Syl wrote:
Maddog wrote:

I like punishing myself. Cool

Or you enjoy it. Basketball

It's my way of dealing with my guilt from a life of sin. Cool

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Post by Syl Sun Apr 04, 2021 7:29 pm

Maddog wrote:
Syl wrote:

Or you enjoy it. Basketball

It's my way of dealing with my guilt from a life of sin. Cool

Use this instead....save you moaning in my threads. Wink

Do you argue more on forums than in real life? Rbf66f10

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Post by Maddog Sun Apr 04, 2021 9:02 pm

Syl wrote:
Maddog wrote:

It's my way of dealing with my guilt from a life of sin. Cool

Use this instead....save you moaning in my threads. Wink

Do you argue more on forums than in real life? Rbf66f10

You act like I don't already use that on myself.

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Post by Fred Moletrousers Sun Apr 04, 2021 10:36 pm

Syl wrote:
Maddog wrote:

It's my way of dealing with my guilt from a life of sin. Cool

Use this instead....save you moaning in my threads. Wink

Do you argue more on forums than in real life? Rbf66f10
Dammit , Syl. I had no idea you were into, ahem, the fifty shades of grey.....
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Post by Syl Sun Apr 04, 2021 11:00 pm

Fred Moletrousers wrote:
Syl wrote:

Use this instead....save you moaning in my threads. Wink

Do you argue more on forums than in real life? Rbf66f10
Dammit , Syl. I had no idea you were into, ahem, the fifty shades of grey.....
I read it, I will take the 5th  on whether or not I put any of into practice. silent

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