The North South divide in the uK.

Does it exist, if so is it increasing?

If anyone has been watching the Mayor of Greater Manchester Andy Burnham trying to fight for the rights of Mancunians....I think they will agree the divide is there and is being ignored by London based central government.

Syl wrote:Does it exist, if so is it increasing?

If anyone has been watching the Mayor of Greater Manchester Andy Burnham trying to fight for the rights of Mancunians....I think they will agree the divide is there and is being ignored by London based central government.

the free thinnking, workers and ordinary people are in the North, you are the possible exception, the south is the power and the money, they need each other, yet loathe each other, which is why we find ourselves controlled by whinging shites and morons.
the money and power holds the rest in contempt but need the workers to do the work. they hate that fact.

inmyopinion wrote:

Syl wrote:Does it exist, if so is it increasing?

If anyone has been watching the Mayor of Greater Manchester Andy Burnham trying to fight for the rights of Mancunians....I think they will agree the divide is there and is being ignored by London based central government.

the free thinnking, workers and ordinary people are in the North, you are the possible exception, the south is the power and the money, they need each other, yet loathe each other, which is why we find ourselves controlled by whinging shites and morons.
the money and power holds the rest in contempt but need the workers to do the work. they hate  that fact.

I'm from the North too, also Manchester, even if not currently living there. My entire family live in the North and most of them are progressive minded and mostly Labour voters. My friends too.

Your generalisations are about as ill founded as everything else you post here

Eilzel wrote:

inmyopinion wrote:

the free thinnking, workers and ordinary people are in the North, you are the possible exception, the south is the power and the money, they need each other, yet loathe each other, which is why we find ourselves controlled by whinging shites and morons.
the money and power holds the rest in contempt but need the workers to do the work. they hate  that fact.

I'm from the North too, also Manchester, even if not currently living there. My entire family live in the North and most of them are progressive minded and mostly Labour voters. My friends too.

Your generalisations are about as ill founded as everything else you post here

again in your warped lefty world it would seem ill founded but once based in actual reality, it becomes a pretty fair opinion.

inmyopinion wrote:

Syl wrote:Does it exist, if so is it increasing?

If anyone has been watching the Mayor of Greater Manchester Andy Burnham trying to fight for the rights of Mancunians....I think they will agree the divide is there and is being ignored by London based central government.

the free thinnking, workers and ordinary people are in the North, you are the possible exception, the south is the power and the money, they need each other, yet loathe each other, which is why we find ourselves controlled by whinging shites and morons.
the money and power holds the rest in contempt but need the workers to do the work. they hate  that fact.

Irregardless of your narrow minded opinion, I am a free thinking working class northerner, and I don't loathe southerners.
I can see how the country is split North to South though, and in the last few months the divide has become even more noticeable.
Local councils led by Andy Burnham are trying to get more power to control our own problems.....having Boris and Co make decisions on our behalf when he knows nothing about the North is beginning to grate.

I can see changes ahead.

Syl wrote:

inmyopinion wrote:

the free thinnking, workers and ordinary people are in the North, you are the possible exception, the south is the power and the money, they need each other, yet loathe each other, which is why we find ourselves controlled by whinging shites and morons.
the money and power holds the rest in contempt but need the workers to do the work. they hate  that fact.

Irregardless of your narrow minded opinion, I am a free thinking working class northerner, and I don't loathe southerners.
I can see how the country is split North to South though, and in the last few months the divide has become even more noticeable.
Local councils led by Andy Burnham are trying to get more power to control our own problems.....having Boris and Co make decisions on our behalf when he knows nothing about the North is beginning to grate.

I can see changes ahead.

free thinking, mask wearing, in house hiding northerener, is not a northener, in my opinion.
n one in power considers the plebs, Boris is no diferent to any other leader or power nut.

Its not just North and South divide, most of the power is in and around London and the home counties and south coast. The rest of the country is either largely forgotten about. Cornwall, Wales and a few other areas are treated like holiday parks for the rich with second homes and yachts tied up in what were once working harbours. The towns are dead especially where there was once industry. I believe Manchester is bucking the trend though?

Y'all should have one of those civil war things.

Well, we (Wales) did think about it in the 60's through to the 80's there were a few events and a few organisations thinking that way but it coincided with the Golden Years of Welsh Rugby so it was a bit of a non starter with the general public. Too busy watching and talking about the rugby success, see mun.

Eilzel wrote:

inmyopinion wrote:

the free thinnking, workers and ordinary people are in the North, you are the possible exception, the south is the power and the money, they need each other, yet loathe each other, which is why we find ourselves controlled by whinging shites and morons.
the money and power holds the rest in contempt but need the workers to do the work. they hate  that fact.

I'm from the North too, also Manchester, even if not currently living there. My entire family live in the North and most of them are progressive minded and mostly Labour voters. My friends too.

Your generalisations are about as ill founded as everything else you post here

London is full of lefty labour voters... If you check, I think you'll find that most London MPs are labour...


And a lot of Tory MPs are from north of London!

Tommy Monk wrote:

Eilzel wrote:

inmyopinion wrote:

the free thinnking, workers and ordinary people are in the North, you are the possible exception, the south is the power and the money, they need each other, yet loathe each other, which is why we find ourselves controlled by whinging shites and morons.
the money and power holds the rest in contempt but need the workers to do the work. they hate  that fact.

I'm from the North too, also Manchester, even if not currently living there. My entire family live in the North and most of them are progressive minded and mostly Labour voters. My friends too.

Your generalisations are about as ill founded as everything else you post here

London is full of lefty labour voters... If you check, I think you'll find that most London MPs are labour...


And a lot of Tory MPs are from north of London!

I don't disagree on any of that. Not sure if that was a reply to me or IMO actually?

Was to you and Syl.

London has 73 MPs in parliament... And 577 from every part of the rest of the UK!

Tommy Monk wrote:

Was to you and Syl.

Well, you aren't telling me anything I didn't know. If there was any kind of political divide then it's between cities and the countryside. Cities massively went for Labour while rural areas and towns went Tory, generally.

Economically I agree with Vintage, the divide is London (and the surrounding shires/south east) and the rest of the country.

That's just not true...


There are representatives from every part of the UK and everyone has a voice.

Tommy Monk wrote:


That's just not true...


There are representatives from every part of the UK and everyone has a voice.

Which part 'just isn't true'?

Tommy Monk wrote:


That's just not true...


There are representatives from every part of the UK and everyone has a voice.

You would think everyone had a voice but doesn't seem so.
Urban Constituencies in England and Wales in 2005 = 373
Rural Constituencies in England and Wales in 2005 = 130.

Take for example HS2 - most if not all rural communities don't want it crashing through the countryside how will it benefit them, its removing ancient woodland and countryside, compulsory purchasing homes of people who happen to like living where they do all for what a slightly shorter journey time, obviously never heard of of video conferencing or whatever it is these days.
It will benefit London, Birmingham, Leeds, Manchester etc.

Les... All this talk of a divide and parliament only thinks about London... It sounds like that idiot Nicola Sturgeon when she always refers to the UK parliament as being "the Westminster govt"...



And Vintage... I'm not here to defend HS2...

Vintage wrote:

Tommy Monk wrote:


That's just not true...


There are representatives from every part of the UK and everyone has a voice.

You would think everyone had a voice but doesn't seem so.
Urban Constituencies in England and Wales in 2005 = 373
Rural  Constituencies in England and Wales in 2005 = 130.

Take for example HS2 - most if not all rural communities don't want it crashing through the countryside how will it benefit them, its removing ancient woodland and countryside, compulsory purchasing homes of people who happen to like living where they do all for what a slightly shorter journey time, obviously never heard of of video conferencing or whatever it is these days.  
It will benefit London, Birmingham, Leeds, Manchester etc.

It won't benefit the average joe in most of those cities. Just high flying business types with mega salaries.

As for constituencies, aren't they roughly based on population size?

Tommy Monk wrote:



Les... All this talk of a divide and parliament only thinks about London... It sounds like that idiot Nicola Sturgeon when she always refers to the UK parliament as being "the Westminster govt"...



And Vintage... I'm not here to defend HS2...

I said London and the south east tbf. And I wasn't even the one who brought either divide up, but it is certainly clear to see in terms of the economy inside and outside London.

Yes I know, my reply is to all who talk of divide...

London and Kent have always been the governing regions of the UK (until Scotland awoke in the latter 20th Century). Going back to the wars of the roses, those armies were between Kentishmen, and very few others.

There is a divide. Manchester is the UK's second city, yet we are treated like the poor relation.

It's never been more obvious than over the last few days when the Mayor and councils tried to get a fair deal for the low paid workers in Manchester.
Oddly as soon as London was placed in a more vulnerable position....the one we have been in for months, the money was upped to meet demands.

Anyone who denies a N/S divide should live in greater Manchester and try to get a Dr or nurse appointment.

Syl wrote:There is a divide. Manchester is the UK's second city, yet we are treated like the poor relation.

It's never been more obvious than over the last few days when the Mayor and councils tried to get a fair deal for the low paid workers in Manchester.
Oddly as soon as London was placed in a more vulnerable position....the one we have been in for months, the money was upped to meet demands.

Anyone who denies a N/S divide should live in greater Manchester and try to get a Dr or nurse appointment.

Only the best leaders and generals have considered the plight of their soldiers/ workers.
Until the power people realise the ordinary people are not a necessary annoyance but a real importance the divide will remain.

That is just Andy Burnham playing politics... There was already extra money made available to Manchester, £60million but Burnham refused cos he wanted £65 million...


And have you tried getting a GP appointment where I live in London?

Tommy Monk wrote:

That is just Andy Burnham playing politics... There was already extra money made available to Manchester, £60million but Burnham refused cos he wanted £65 million...


And have you tried getting a GP appointment where I live in London?

No, he wanted 95 million actually, and that was worked out with the local councils to ensure the low paid and self employed in greater Manchester, many who had not qualified for extra benefits or furlough,  could live without suffering further. He dropped to 65, and it was the government who refused to budge, and in fact they withdrew the previous offer, though their petulance was short lived.

When we were compared to Liverpool and Lancashire, who were already in Tier 3,  it was completely overlooked that we had been in tier 2 for far longer than either, we were about to be placed in Tier 3, and in any case we have double the people of Lancashire and 6 times more than Liverpool.
However, as soon as London was placed in Tier 2...somewhere we have been all summer, extra money was found.

Re Dr's appointments, No, but I know people who live in London and they can get dr's appointments a lot sooner than we can, we cant even get through to a surgery to speak to a receptionist most of the time.

And his figures were well over estimated... Which is why the govt figures showed 60 million was nearer to the cost.


And talking about handouts and furlough payments... All I got was a small loan of £3,000 because for last couple of years I have been working through my own Ltd company setup... For the previous 20 years I've been a sole trader CIS4 scheme and if I'd stayed doing things that way I'd have already been given 2 X £7,500 grants =£15,000!!!


Whenever I rarely ring up a GP, normally it is the same thing I'm told, sorry we're booked up for the next 2 weeks and we don't take bookings any further than that, so call back in a couple of days...

His figures were not overestimated, they were worked out with other council leaders and shown to central government, who refused to even sit down and talk with them through till the press got hold of it.
Like I said all Boris could say was Manchester had to fall in line with Liverpool and Lancashire who had accepted the deal without question.
A deal that was so insulting it was never considered for London....what does that tell you?

I'm sorry you struggled financially through all this, I think millions have, but struggling and starving are two different things.

We cant get through to speak to anyone at the GP's. We get a recorded message saying 'No available appointments, but of it's an emergency put down the phone and ring 911...online we just get the same message, "No available appointments"

Worked out by other council leaders... Exactly... Which is why they don't add up!!!


And you get a message saying ring "911"?

Tommy Monk wrote:


Worked out by other council leaders... Exactly... Which is why they don't add up!!!


And you get a message saying ring "911"?

It might be 999 or 111...I never hardly ring the Dr's.

Re the OP, asking about a divide, has this become more evident since Coronavirus or have the north always felt this way?

eddie wrote:Re the OP, asking about a divide, has this become more evident since Coronavirus or have the north always felt this way?

I think it's definitely become more obvious since Coronavirus.

I personally have noticed when talking to people who live further South that the NHS services vary a lot....as in here, it can often feel we have zero NHS care unless it's an absolute emergency, and then it's hit and miss.

eddie wrote:Re the OP, asking about a divide, has this become more evident since Coronavirus or have the north always felt this way?

I think it's definitely become more obvious since Coronavirus.

I personally have noticed when talking to people who live further South that the NHS services vary a lot....as in here, it can often feel we have zero NHS care unless it's an absolute emergency, and then it's hit and miss.

Syl wrote:

eddie wrote:Re the OP, asking about a divide, has this become more evident since Coronavirus or have the north always felt this way?

I think it's definitely become more obvious since Coronavirus.

I personally have noticed when talking to people who live further South that the NHS services vary a lot....as in here, it can often feel we have zero NHS care unless it's an absolute emergency, and then it's hit and miss.

You said that twice

I didn’t realise that people from the North felt that way. Perhaps I’m naive but I never really realised that!

I never dwelt on it, but actually Andy Burnham, greater Manchester's mayor has been outlining some facts and figures of how Manchester has been treated financially since this virus first appeared and how we are treated compared to London...especially since we have been in a far worse situation for far longer.

He is old Labour...and he tells it like it is rather than covering up or keeping quiet.
Obviously many (usually Southerners) either dont agree with him, or probably up to the last 2 weeks hadn't even heard of him....IF he decides to stay in politics, they will do though.

Could it be though, that the majority of the UK’s big businesses operate from London and that the government tend to protect London more so than other places?
Not saying I agree with that, but just offering up an explanation.

Once the industrial regions were lost they were basically forgotten and left to their own devices. Hundreds of people scrambling for one job, I read the other day one thousand people applied for a job in a local brewery, I forget where it was now. I see streams of traffic leaving the valleys everyday the lucky ones who have jobs, having to travel to Swansea, Cardiff and Newport to work, even people from Newport travelling to Swansea and vice versa. When each town had something by way of light engineering and various factories and shops people could work in. Work used to be where the population was, now its centralised in big towns or cities. I don't know exactly what its like in Manchester
though.

Vintage wrote:Once the industrial regions were lost they were basically forgotten and left to their own devices. Hundreds of people scrambling for one job,  I read the other day one thousand people applied for a job in a local brewery, I forget where it was now. I see streams of traffic leaving the valleys everyday the lucky ones who have jobs, having to travel to Swansea, Cardiff and Newport to work, even people from Newport travelling to Swansea and vice versa. When each town had something by way of light engineering and various factories and shops people could work in. Work used to be where the population was, now its centralised in big towns or cities. I don't know exactly what its like in Manchester
though.

That’s really quite sad, actually. I suppose I never really thought about it, to be fair. That makes me feel really ignorant.

As an outsider who's just learning about UK culture, my impression is that people in the North are often missing teeth and say things like "Aye oop" while people in the South tend to be mistaken for gay.

Vintage wrote:Once the industrial regions were lost they were basically forgotten and left to their own devices. Hundreds of people scrambling for one job, I read the other day one thousand people applied for a job in a local brewery, I forget where it was now. I see streams of traffic leaving the valleys everyday the lucky ones who have jobs, having to travel to Swansea, Cardiff and Newport to work, even people from Newport travelling to Swansea and vice versa. When each town had something by way of light engineering and various factories and shops people could work in. Work used to be where the population was, now its centralised in big towns or cities. I don't know exactly what its like in Manchester
though.

Mass immigration pushed up costs of living and made it unworkable/unprofitable to carry on producing lots of stuff herr, but cheaper to import from abroad...

Tommy Monk wrote:

Vintage wrote:Once the industrial regions were lost they were basically forgotten and left to their own devices. Hundreds of people scrambling for one job,  I read the other day one thousand people applied for a job in a local brewery, I forget where it was now. I see streams of traffic leaving the valleys everyday the lucky ones who have jobs, having to travel to Swansea, Cardiff and Newport to work, even people from Newport travelling to Swansea and vice versa. When each town had something by way of light engineering and various factories and shops people could work in. Work used to be where the population was, now its centralised in big towns or cities. I don't know exactly what its like in Manchester
though.

Mass immigration pushed up costs of living and made it unworkable/unprofitable to carry on producing lots of stuff herr, but cheaper to import from abroad...

Actually, people working in horrible working conditions in places like China, which has next to no protection for workers, makes importing from abroad cheaper.

Look up how much an iPhone would cost if it were made by American workers, who have fewer protections than British workers. (Hint: about $2,000.)

Ben Reilly wrote:As an outsider who's just learning about UK culture, my impression is that people in the North are often missing teeth and say things like "Aye oop" while people in the South tend to be mistaken for gay.

Dont forget the flat cap and clogs.

Vintage wrote:Once the industrial regions were lost they were basically forgotten and left to their own devices. Hundreds of people scrambling for one job,  I read the other day one thousand people applied for a job in a local brewery, I forget where it was now. I see streams of traffic leaving the valleys everyday the lucky ones who have jobs, having to travel to Swansea, Cardiff and Newport to work, even people from Newport travelling to Swansea and vice versa. When each town had something by way of light engineering and various factories and shops people could work in. Work used to be where the population was, now its centralised in big towns or cities. I don't know exactly what its like in Manchester
though.

Re jobs, my grandsons mum has just found out that after being made redundant thanks to corona ...after working the same place for 17 years, she has been lucky to find a job locally, she beat hundreds of people who applied for the same position as a dental receptionist.

Every position no matter how low paid that becomes vacant  in the hospitality business has hundreds of applicants.....and so many pubs and restaurants either wont reopen again or are uncertain whether they can.


I imagine that's going to happen countrywide now and in the future though, every region is going to see much higher  rates of unemployment....especially places like Wales that rely on tourism for a good part of the year.

When I was young I used to have good friends in Shotton and Flint, I remember the devastation when the steel industry was shut down down there, some communities, like the mining communities in other parts of the country, never recovered.

Tommy Monk wrote:


That's just not true...


There are representatives from every part of the UK and everyone has a voice.

The problem is some are not listened to when they know a lot more about the places they come from than the people who have the final decisions

Ben Reilly wrote:As an outsider who's just learning about UK culture, my impression is that people in the North are often missing teeth and say things like "Aye oop" while people in the South tend to be mistaken for gay.

As my nephew-in-law (from Cornwall) pointed out once, the UK is just the opposite of the US. In the UK, the belief is the dumb ones are in the north, while the 'quick' ones are in the south.

But let's be more analytical. In London, as in New York, you have the mercantile and financial (capitalist) interests, and they are bound to be more savvy and agile. In the north (as in the south in the US), the people are more awkward and guileless.

But I agree with Syl, when it comes to representation the people in the region are bound to be more familiar with the challenges and how to overcome them. Pitkin, Hannah, The Concept of Representation (1972).

Original Quill wrote:

Ben Reilly wrote:As an outsider who's just learning about UK culture, my impression is that people in the North are often missing teeth and say things like "Aye oop" while people in the South tend to be mistaken for gay.

As my nephew-in-law (from Cornwall) pointed out once, the UK is just the opposite of the US.  In the UK, the belief is the dumb ones are in the north, while the 'quick' ones are in the south.

But let's be more analytical.  In London, as in New York, you have the mercantile and financial  (capitalist) interests, and they are bound to be more savvy and agile.  In the north (as in the south in the US), the people are more awkward and guileless.

But I agree with Syl, when it comes to representation the people in the region are bound to be more familiar with the challenges and how to overcome them.  Pitkin, Hannah, The Concept of Representation (1972).

Have you ever actually been to the north of England, have you ever actually known any northern people??
We may have a lot less government funded money to play around with but that doesn't make us 'awkward and guileless 'believe me.

Syl wrote:

Original Quill wrote:

As my nephew-in-law (from Cornwall) pointed out once, the UK is just the opposite of the US.  In the UK, the belief is the dumb ones are in the north, while the 'quick' ones are in the south.

But let's be more analytical.  In London, as in New York, you have the mercantile and financial  (capitalist) interests, and they are bound to be more savvy and agile.  In the north (as in the south in the US), the people are more awkward and guileless.

But I agree with Syl, when it comes to representation the people in the region are bound to be more familiar with the challenges and how to overcome them.  Pitkin, Hannah, The Concept of Representation (1972).

Have you ever actually been to the north of England, have you ever actually known any northern people??
We may have a lot less government funded money to play around with but that doesn't make us 'awkward and guileless 'believe me.

Well, I am a Scot from Mull. I've frequented there and lived there for periods as well. I've visited lots of regions of England, but I was really speaking off the words of my nephew from Cornwall...and his comments about the similarity between north/south in the US, and south/north in the UK.

If his observations are valid, I can well understand the more remote attitudes of Londoners. In addition to broader economic considerations, they happen to be the political center of the nation, and have a perspective from that responsibility. I can add, he is Oxford and Wharton educated, if that means anything.

Of course, in using the US as the barometer, we've got the history of southern slavery and southern racism to take into account. But, if we view that as just another parochial issue, the model fits.

Original Quill wrote:

Syl wrote:

Have you ever actually been to the north of England, have you ever actually known any northern people??
We may have a lot less government funded money to play around with but that doesn't make us 'awkward and guileless 'believe me.

Well, I am a Scot from Mull.  I've frequented there and lived there for periods as well.  I've visited lots of regions of England, but I was really speaking off the words of my nephew from Cornwall...and his comments about the similarity between north/south in the US, and south/north in the UK.

If his observations are valid, I can well understand the more remote attitudes of Londoners.  In addition to broader economic considerations, they happen to be the political center of the nation, and have a perspective from that responsibility.  I can add, he is Oxford and Wharton educated, if that means anything.

Of course, in using the US as the barometer, we've got the history of southern slavery and southern racism to take into account.  But, if we view that as just another parochial issue, the model fits.

Scotland is a different country to England.

Cornwall, where your nephew hails from, is very nice for holidays and pasties...and as he was educated at Oxford, (never heard of Wharton) he probably has as much idea of what life is like in northern England as Boris and his cronies do.

I don't think you can make that comparison, if anything the Northern cities in the UK are more like the Northern cities of the US. The southern parts of the UK are more like the south of the US only perhaps more affluent, especially these days. In the 30's a couple of great uncles had to leave coal mining due to lung problems and moved to just outside London, work was plentiful they ended up in a couple of factories where they were ashamed to earn, for sweeping the factory floors, three times the wages the brothers they left behind who were still doing a weeks work in the mines.
A g/grandchild of one of the uncles just sold the family home there for one million, their old home in the village, a terrace of course, last sold for £75,000. We need to share work out a bit more. If its a contest between the North/Wales/Cornwall and the south of England for something new that'll bring jobs, the first three don't have much chance. Global business kills everything off eventually not just the competition.

Vintage wrote: I don't think you can make that comparison, if anything the Northern cities in the UK are more like the Northern cities of the US. The southern parts of the UK are more like the south of the US only perhaps more affluent, especially these days. In the 30's a couple of great uncles had to leave coal mining due to lung problems and moved to just outside London, work was plentiful they ended up in a couple of factories where they were ashamed to earn, for sweeping the factory floors, three times the wages the brothers they left behind who were still doing a weeks work in the mines.

A g/grandchild of one of the uncles just sold the family home there for one million, their old home in the village, a terrace of course, last sold for £75,000. We need to share work out a bit more. If its a contest between the North/Wales/Cornwall and the south of England for something new that'll bring jobs, the first three don't have much chance. Global business kills everything off eventually not just the competition.

You missed my point...or my nephew's point. He was comparing the north of the UK with the south of the US., and the south of the UK with the north of the US. His point was the north of the US and the south of the UK are the more sophisticated.

I think it was just his impression, not something that can be calibrated. But, I do agree that London and New York are exceptional cities, both in terms of their economic power and influence in politics. Compared to Atlanta or Houston, it's a categorical difference.