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Post by inmyopinion on Tue Sep 22, 2020 10:15 am

surely it is just legalised discrimination and is just as wrong, isn't the best person for the job always the way it should be.
If I get a job/position I want tot know I got it because of me not because the company was in the middle of a mad drive to employ more west Indian's.

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Post by Syl on Tue Sep 22, 2020 3:17 pm

Yes...the person best suited to the job, regardless of sex, age, race etc should get it.

I think we are a long way off that though.

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Post by inmyopinion on Tue Sep 22, 2020 4:20 pm

Syl wrote:Yes...the person best suited to the job, regardless of sex, age, race etc should get it.

I think we are a long way off that though.

unfortunately the pendulum of right and wrong has to go to far one way then the other to finally find the middle ground.

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Post by Tommy Monk on Tue Sep 22, 2020 5:52 pm

Totally agree that it is discrimination... Normally anti white male discrimination...


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Post by Original Quill on Tue Sep 22, 2020 6:58 pm

Hmmm...not if "the best person for the job" is always white and male. You get a little suspicious if no women or blacks ever are deemed qualified.

Ruth Bader Ginsburg, the Supreme Court justice who just died, is a case in point. We are reminded that when she graduated with honors from Columbia University Law School, the only job offers she could get in the entire City of New York were as a legal secretary. "The best person for the job" very often means only that s/he fits our white, male stereotype.

It her case, it was called breaking the glass ceiling. There are lots of 'glass ceilings'. Sometimes the world isn't flat, and new thinking is required.

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Post by Tommy Monk on Tue Sep 22, 2020 7:59 pm

Original Quill wrote:Hmmm...not if "the best person for the job" is always white and male. You get a little suspicious if no women or blacks ever are deemed qualified.

Ruth Bader Ginsburg, the Supreme Court justice who just died, is a case in point. We are reminded that when she graduated with honors from Columbia University Law School, the only job offers she could get in the entire City of New York were as a legal secretary. "The best person for the job" very often means only that s/he fits our white, male stereotype.

It her case, it was called breaking the glass ceiling. There are lots of 'glass ceilings'. Sometimes the world isn't flat, and new thinking is required.



If the best applicant for a job just happens to be white and male, then they should not be refused that job because they are white and male.



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Post by inmyopinion on Tue Sep 22, 2020 8:38 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:Totally agree that it is discrimination... Normally anti white male discrimination...


unfortunately is does seem to be a group that is least required for the job.

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Post by inmyopinion on Tue Sep 22, 2020 8:43 pm

Original Quill wrote:Hmmm...not if "the best person for the job" is always white and male.  You get a little suspicious if no women or blacks ever are deemed qualified.

Ruth Bader Ginsburg, the Supreme Court justice who just died, is a case in point.  We are reminded that when she graduated with honors from Columbia University Law School, the only job offers she could get in the entire City of New York were as a legal secretary.  "The best person for the job" very often means only that s/he fits our white, male stereotype.

It her case, it was called breaking the glass ceiling.  There are lots of 'glass ceilings'.  Sometimes the world isn't flat, and new thinking is required.

you have to allow for the needs of the people the job serves to, if for example the applicant is covered in satanic tattoos and the job is serving older people the employee may directly effect your business.

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Post by Original Quill on Tue Sep 22, 2020 9:43 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:
Original Quill wrote:Hmmm...not if "the best person for the job" is always white and male.  You get a little suspicious if no women or blacks ever are deemed qualified.

Ruth Bader Ginsburg, the Supreme Court justice who just died, is a case in point.  We are reminded that when she graduated with honors from Columbia University Law School, the only job offers she could get in the entire City of New York were as a legal secretary.  "The best person for the job" very often means only that s/he fits our white, male stereotype.

It her case, it was called breaking the glass ceiling.  There are lots of 'glass ceilings'.  Sometimes the world isn't flat, and new thinking is required.

If the best applicant for a job just happens to be white and male, then they should not be refused that job because they are white and male.

A-hah, but you are flipping the question, misconstruing the issue.  Suppose the white male is not the best?  Suppose the 'meritocracy' is infected by bias, unconscious or otherwise.

That's why I gave the example of Ruth Bader Ginsburg.  In her case, contrary to merit, she was overlooked in favor of males because of the unfounded, unconscious belief that females cannot be good lawyers.  Look how false that turned out to be.

Meritocracy depends on superior indicia to determine merit.  Sometimes merit is confused with false presumptions as to value and quality.  The 'old boy' network is full of them.

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Post by inmyopinion on Wed Sep 23, 2020 9:04 am

Original Quill wrote:
Tommy Monk wrote:

If the best applicant for a job just happens to be white and male, then they should not be refused that job because they are white and male.

A-hah, but you are flipping the question, misconstruing the issue.  Suppose the white male is not the best?  Suppose the 'meritocracy' is infected by bias, unconscious or otherwise.

That's why I gave the example of Ruth Bader Ginsburg.  In her case, contrary to merit, she was overlooked in favor of males because of the unfounded, unconscious belief that females cannot be good lawyers.  Look how false that turned out to be.

Meritocracy depends on superior indicia to determine merit.  Sometimes merit is confused with false presumptions as to value and quality.  The 'old boy' network is full of them.

No you assume she was over looked because of something, perhaps she was arrogant, nasty, perhaps she interviewed badly but if she got the job because she was female is that just as bad.

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Post by Original Quill on Wed Sep 23, 2020 6:15 pm

inmyopinion wrote:No you assume she was over looked because of something, perhaps she was arrogant, nasty, perhaps she interviewed badly but if she got the job because she was female is that just as bad.

Those are personal idiosyncrasies.  It doesn't account for the lack of women getting jobs as attorneys, at any law firm in NYC.

• They used to say that women aren't suited for high-stress jobs ... you know, if one were president, she could blow the world up at that time of the month.  These myths and superstitions permeate society, and are always confused with true merit.

The point is, that meritocracy depends on what you consider meritorious.  It's a value-laden minefield.  It used to be accepted that Blacks are only good at sports and tap-dancing; women should only be barefoot and pregnant, and have dinner on the table every evening.  What you call merit, any rational person most often would call prejudices and biases.

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Post by inmyopinion on Wed Sep 23, 2020 6:21 pm

Original Quill wrote:
inmyopinion wrote:No you assume she was over looked because of something, perhaps she was arrogant, nasty, perhaps she interviewed badly but if she got the job because she was female is that just as bad.

Those are personal idiosyncrasies.  It doesn't account for the lack of women getting jobs as attorneys, at any law firm in NYC.

• They used to say that women aren't suited for high-stress jobs ... you know, if one were president, she could blow the world up at that time of the month.  These myths and superstitions permeate society, and are always confused with true merit.

The point is, that meritocracy depends on what you consider meritorious.  It's a value-laden minefield.  It used to be accepted that Blacks are only good at sports and tap-dancing; women should only be barefoot and pregnant, and have dinner on the table every evening.  What you call merit, any rational person most often would call prejudices and biases.

More assumptions, do you base anything you say on facts, opinion, you just have your opinion, which you are entitled to but do not peddle those opinions as indisputable facts.

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Post by Original Quill on Wed Sep 23, 2020 6:52 pm

inmyopinion wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

Those are personal idiosyncrasies. It doesn't account for the lack of women getting jobs as attorneys, at any law firm in NYC.

• They used to say that women aren't suited for high-stress jobs ... you know, if one were president, she could blow the world up at that time of the month. These myths and superstitions permeate society, and are always confused with true merit.

The point is, that meritocracy depends on what you consider meritorious. It's a value-laden minefield. It used to be accepted that Blacks are only good at sports and tap-dancing; women should only be barefoot and pregnant, and have dinner on the table every evening. What you call merit, any rational person most often would call prejudices and biases.

More assumptions, do you base anything you say on facts, opinion, you just have your opinion, which you are entitled to but do not peddle those opinions as indisputable facts.

Not assumption. You just need to learn to read: Meero Deo, Unequal Profession: Race and Gender in Legal Academia (2019); Angela P. Harris (ed), Presumed Incompetent: The Intersections of Race and Class for Women in Academia (2012); Catharine A. MacKinnon, Women's Lives, Men's Laws (2005); Deborah Rhodes, Justice and Gender (1989); Sandra Fredman, Women and the Law (1969).

These works have plenty of facts in them. It's enough to get your started.

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Post by inmyopinion on Wed Sep 23, 2020 7:21 pm

Original Quill wrote:
inmyopinion wrote:

More assumptions, do you base anything you say on facts, opinion, you just have your opinion, which you are entitled to but do not peddle those opinions as indisputable facts.

Not assumption.  You just need to learn to read:  Meero Deo, Unequal Profession: Race and Gender in Legal Academia (2019); Angela P. Harris (ed), Presumed Incompetent: The Intersections of Race and Class for Women in Academia (2012); Catharine A. MacKinnon, Women's Lives, Men's Laws (2005); Deborah Rhodes, Justice and Gender (1989); Sandra Fredman, Women and the Law (1969).

These works have plenty of facts in them.  It's enough to get your started.
So supporting bias with bias works makes it fact, wow I will have to remember that

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Post by Original Quill on Wed Sep 23, 2020 7:46 pm

inmyopinion wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

Not assumption.  You just need to learn to read:  Meero Deo, Unequal Profession: Race and Gender in Legal Academia (2019); Angela P. Harris (ed), Presumed Incompetent: The Intersections of Race and Class for Women in Academia (2012); Catharine A. MacKinnon, Women's Lives, Men's Laws (2005); Deborah Rhodes, Justice and Gender (1989); Sandra Fredman, Women and the Law (1969).

These works have plenty of facts in them.  It's enough to get your started.
So supporting bias with bias works makes it fact, wow I will have to remember that

Don't read? Maybe you should stand on the corner and bark. Positive discrimination!! 2981866455

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Post by inmyopinion on Wed Sep 23, 2020 7:48 pm

Original Quill wrote:
inmyopinion wrote:
So supporting bias with bias works makes it fact, wow I will have to remember that

Don't read?  Maybe you should stand on the corner and bark.  Positive discrimination!! 2981866455

perhaps you should read a book on civility Shocked

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Post by Original Quill on Wed Sep 23, 2020 8:33 pm

inmyopinion wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

Don't read?  Maybe you should stand on the corner and bark.  Positive discrimination!! 2981866455

perhaps you should read a book on civility Shocked

Aren't you off-topic?  This thread is not about me.  Your post asked for facts.  If I gave you anecdotes you would say you can't generalize from specifics.  OK, you would be right.  So, I gave you sources for facts, in the form of several relevant books, giving statistics as well as specifics.  

Now, suddenly, you are talking about my civility.  WTF does that have to do with anything?  You've got the facts you called for...go read, fcs!

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Post by inmyopinion on Wed Sep 23, 2020 9:04 pm

Original Quill wrote:
inmyopinion wrote:

perhaps you should read a book on civility Shocked

Aren't you off-topic?  This thread is not about me.  Your post asked for facts.  If I gave you anecdotes you would say you can't generalize from specifics.  OK, you would be right.  So, I gave you sources for facts, in the form of several relevant books, giving statistics as well as specifics.  

Now, suddenly, you are talking about my civility.  WTF does that have to do with anything?  You've got the facts you called for...go read, fcs!
If you cannot read your own words you have the problem.
learn to debate.................

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Post by Original Quill on Wed Sep 23, 2020 9:27 pm

inmyopinion wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

Aren't you off-topic?  This thread is not about me.  Your post asked for facts.  If I gave you anecdotes you would say you can't generalize from specifics.  OK, you would be right.  So, I gave you sources for facts, in the form of several relevant books, giving statistics as well as specifics.  

Now, suddenly, you are talking about my civility.  WTF does that have to do with anything?  You've got the facts you called for...go read, fcs!
If you cannot read your own words you have the problem.
learn to debate.................

Doin' fine, here. You've got mission-drift, from message to messenger. Haha...learn to debate. Wink

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Post by inmyopinion on Wed Sep 23, 2020 10:01 pm

Original Quill wrote:
inmyopinion wrote:
If you cannot read your own words you have the problem.
learn to debate.................

Doin' fine, here.  You've got mission-drift, from message to messenger.  Haha...learn to debate.  Wink

why people waste time on you i will never know.

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Post by Victorismyhero on Wed Sep 23, 2020 10:15 pm

Original Quill wrote:
inmyopinion wrote:No you assume she was over looked because of something, perhaps she was arrogant, nasty, perhaps she interviewed badly but if she got the job because she was female is that just as bad.

Those are personal idiosyncrasies.  It doesn't account for the lack of women getting jobs as attorneys, at any law firm in NYC.

• They used to say that women aren't suited for high-stress jobs ... you know, if one were president, she could blow the world up at that time of the month.  These myths and superstitions permeate society, and are always confused with true merit.

The point is, that meritocracy depends on what you consider meritorious.  It's a value-laden minefield.  It used to be accepted that Blacks are only good at sports and tap-dancing; women should only be barefoot and pregnant, and have dinner on the table every evening.  What you call merit, any rational person most often would call prejudices and biases.

Pffft...you dont know the truth of that....you never met my ex.....She didnt have PMT...she had "mad cow disease"

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Post by Tommy Monk on Wed Sep 23, 2020 10:22 pm

Victorismyhero wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

Those are personal idiosyncrasies.  It doesn't account for the lack of women getting jobs as attorneys, at any law firm in NYC.

• They used to say that women aren't suited for high-stress jobs ... you know, if one were president, she could blow the world up at that time of the month.  These myths and superstitions permeate society, and are always confused with true merit.

The point is, that meritocracy depends on what you consider meritorious.  It's a value-laden minefield.  It used to be accepted that Blacks are only good at sports and tap-dancing; women should only be barefoot and pregnant, and have dinner on the table every evening.  What you call merit, any rational person most often would call prejudices and biases.

Pffft...you dont know the truth of that....you never met my ex.....She didnt have PMT...she had "mad cow disease"



Same here... One of my ex girlfriends became totally deranged/psychotic/psychopathic during the week before her period started...



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Post by Ben Reilly on Sat Sep 26, 2020 12:22 am

Positive discrimination, or affirmative action as it's called in the U.S., has always been a clumsy solution to a real problem -- that some employers do (and always will) think that an applicant can't be qualified unless they're a member of the "right" gender, race, sexual orientation, religion, etc.

There is unbiased evidence that such a thing continues to happen in America -- a group made a bunch of fake CVs and sent them out to employers. They found that fake applicants with stereotypical white-sounding names were contacted more often than applicants with stereotypical black-sounding names.

https://www.nber.org/digest/sep03/w9873.html

Even though the qualifications listed on the fake CVs were identical.

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Post by Original Quill on Sat Sep 26, 2020 5:00 am

Still, AA is better than doing nothing.  I know that giving preference because of gender or race, places a stigma on the candidate.  But, in the long run, it's produces women lawyers and black doctors, and society slowly gets used to the idea(s).

If we did nothing, the south would still abide by the Jim Crow laws, and New York would still have glass ceilings.  At least now they know it is wrong.

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Post by Tommy Monk on Sat Sep 26, 2020 5:09 am

Ben Reilly wrote:Positive discrimination, or affirmative action as it's called in the U.S., has always been a clumsy solution to a real problem -- that some employers do (and always will) think that an applicant can't be qualified unless they're a member of the "right" gender, race, sexual orientation, religion, etc.

There is unbiased evidence that such a thing continues to happen in America -- a group made a bunch of fake CVs and sent them out to employers. They found that fake applicants with stereotypical white-sounding names were contacted more often than applicants with stereotypical black-sounding names.

https://www.nber.org/digest/sep03/w9873.html

Even though the qualifications listed on the fake CVs were identical.



If whites were 90% of society and similar proportion of applicants, and Black's were around 10% of society and applicants, then why would it be an issue that the proportion of applicants actually contacted was of similar proportions...!?




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Post by Original Quill on Sat Sep 26, 2020 6:09 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:
Ben Reilly wrote:Positive discrimination, or affirmative action as it's called in the U.S., has always been a clumsy solution to a real problem -- that some employers do (and always will) think that an applicant can't be qualified unless they're a member of the "right" gender, race, sexual orientation, religion, etc.

There is unbiased evidence that such a thing continues to happen in America -- a group made a bunch of fake CVs and sent them out to employers. They found that fake applicants with stereotypical white-sounding names were contacted more often than applicants with stereotypical black-sounding names.

https://www.nber.org/digest/sep03/w9873.html

Even though the qualifications listed on the fake CVs were identical.

If whites were 90% of society and similar proportion of applicants, and Black's were around 10% of society and applicants, then why would it be an issue that the proportion of applicants actually contacted was of similar proportions...!?

It's not merely a numbers game, although you Brits fall into that trap.  Hey...blacks were once slaves.  You can read about it in the history books.  They were inferior as slaves, and in the south white folks have done everything to make sure they continue to be inferior.

You Brits think it's a numbers game because it's not a part of your history.  In America: Minority = a history of slavery and oppression, with numbers to assure it stays in place.  “Minority” is only a small part of the equation.

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"I don't stand by anything."  ― Donald Trump, interview with John Dickerson, 5.1.17...

“That's libertarians for you — anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.” ― Kim Stanley Robinson, Green Mars (1993).

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Post by inmyopinion on Sat Sep 26, 2020 7:59 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Tommy Monk wrote:

If whites were 90% of society and similar proportion of applicants, and Black's were around 10% of society and applicants, then why would it be an issue that the proportion of applicants actually contacted was of similar proportions...!?

It's not merely a numbers game, although you Brits fall into that trap.  Hey...blacks were once slaves.  You can read about it in the history books.  They were inferior as slaves, and in the south white folks have done everything to make sure they continue to be inferior.

You Brits think it's a numbers game because it's not a part of your history.  In America: Minority = a history of slavery and oppression, with numbers to assure it stays in place.  “Minority” is only a small part of the equation.

Slavery not part of British History, haven't you heard of William Wilberforce?

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Post by eddie on Sat Sep 26, 2020 10:09 pm

inmyopinion wrote:surely it is just legalised discrimination and is just as wrong, isn't the best person for the job always the way it should be.
If I get a job/position I want tot know I got it because of me not because the company was in the middle of a mad drive to employ more west Indian's.

You know that handicapped people have to be given a shot at certain jobs, right?

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Post by Ben Reilly on Sat Sep 26, 2020 10:16 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Tommy Monk wrote:
Ben Reilly wrote:Positive discrimination, or affirmative action as it's called in the U.S., has always been a clumsy solution to a real problem -- that some employers do (and always will) think that an applicant can't be qualified unless they're a member of the "right" gender, race, sexual orientation, religion, etc.

There is unbiased evidence that such a thing continues to happen in America -- a group made a bunch of fake CVs and sent them out to employers. They found that fake applicants with stereotypical white-sounding names were contacted more often than applicants with stereotypical black-sounding names.

https://www.nber.org/digest/sep03/w9873.html

Even though the qualifications listed on the fake CVs were identical.

If whites were 90% of society and similar proportion of applicants, and Black's were around 10% of society and applicants, then why would it be an issue that the proportion of applicants actually contacted was of similar proportions...!?

It's not merely a numbers game, although you Brits fall into that trap.  Hey...blacks were once slaves.  You can read about it in the history books.  They were inferior as slaves, and in the south white folks have done everything to make sure they continue to be inferior.

You Brits think it's a numbers game because it's not a part of your history.  In America: Minority = a history of slavery and oppression, with numbers to assure it stays in place.  “Minority” is only a small part of the equation.

You do realize that slavery started in America back when Americans were British, don't you?

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Post by Ben Reilly on Sat Sep 26, 2020 10:19 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:
Ben Reilly wrote:Positive discrimination, or affirmative action as it's called in the U.S., has always been a clumsy solution to a real problem -- that some employers do (and always will) think that an applicant can't be qualified unless they're a member of the "right" gender, race, sexual orientation, religion, etc.

There is unbiased evidence that such a thing continues to happen in America -- a group made a bunch of fake CVs and sent them out to employers. They found that fake applicants with stereotypical white-sounding names were contacted more often than applicants with stereotypical black-sounding names.

https://www.nber.org/digest/sep03/w9873.html

Even though the qualifications listed on the fake CVs were identical.



If whites were 90% of society and similar proportion of applicants, and Black's were around 10% of society and applicants, then why would it be an issue that the proportion of applicants actually contacted was of similar proportions...!?




Your numbers are a bit off (America's not nearly that white) but if you check the link, you'll see that a black-sounding applicant had to send out an average of 15 CVs to get a call back, whereas white-sounding CVs got a call back for every 10 sent out.

Again, the qualifications (the entire rest of the CVs, actually) were identical.

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Post by Ben Reilly on Sat Sep 26, 2020 10:21 pm

Just had a quick check for my own curiosity's sake and only about 60 percent of Americans are white people of European decent.

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Post by inmyopinion on Sat Sep 26, 2020 11:18 pm

eddie wrote:
inmyopinion wrote:surely it is just legalised discrimination and is just as wrong, isn't the best person for the job always the way it should be.
If I get a job/position I want tot know I got it because of me not because the company was in the middle of a mad drive to employ more west Indian's.

You know that handicapped people have to be given a shot at certain jobs, right?

Yes of course but they should not get the job just because they are handicapped, otherwise we will have to change the name of it.

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Post by Original Quill on Sun Sep 27, 2020 3:43 am

inmyopinion wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

It's not merely a numbers game, although you Brits fall into that trap.  Hey...blacks were once slaves.  You can read about it in the history books.  They were inferior as slaves, and in the south white folks have done everything to make sure they continue to be inferior.

You Brits think it's a numbers game because it's not a part of your history.  In America: Minority = a history of slavery and oppression, with numbers to assure it stays in place.  “Minority” is only a small part of the equation.

Slavery not part of British History, haven't you heard of William Wilberforce?

I agree.  That's why Brits have a difficult time understanding racial division.  Do you remember what the southerner said in the "I am a Racist" article: "The granular slicing of social strata was elaborate. The point was to always have some group that was lower than your own."

Brits think race is measured numerically, when it is really a class thing, with blacks inevitably on the second tier because of the history of slavery. That's what he meant by having "some group that was lower than your own." Blacks have to be second tier, so as to make even the lowest white be superior.

America is a racist country.  The Brits avoided it by never bringing it home. Without the social acculturation in their history, they have no more than a mathematical appreciation of race.

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Post by Tommy Monk on Sun Sep 27, 2020 4:40 am

Ben Reilly wrote:
Tommy Monk wrote:



If whites were 90% of society and similar proportion of applicants, and Black's were around 10% of society and applicants, then why would it be an issue that the proportion of applicants actually contacted was of similar proportions...!?




Your numbers are a bit off (America's not nearly that white) but if you check the link, you'll see that a black-sounding applicant had to send out an average of 15 CVs to get a call back, whereas white-sounding CVs got a call back for every 10 sent out.

Again, the qualifications (the entire rest of the CVs, actually) were identical.



But black population in USA is around 13%...


So it is highly likely that a job has significantly more non black applicants than black applicants.



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Post by Syl on Sun Sep 27, 2020 12:38 pm

But say just two applicants applied for one job, one with a foreign sounding name one called john Smith...both have the exact same qualifications for the job, I think the point being made is stats show that John Smith would get first crack.

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Post by Didgee on Sun Sep 27, 2020 1:17 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:
Ben Reilly wrote:

Your numbers are a bit off (America's not nearly that white) but if you check the link, you'll see that a black-sounding applicant had to send out an average of 15 CVs to get a call back, whereas white-sounding CVs got a call back for every 10 sent out.

Again, the qualifications (the entire rest of the CVs, actually) were identical.



But black population in USA is around 13%...


So it is highly likely that a job has significantly more non black applicants than black applicants.



The above is both true and false

Dependent on the place in the us

The demographic changes around the us on ethnicity and also job types

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Post by inmyopinion on Sun Sep 27, 2020 1:44 pm

Syl wrote:But say just two applicants applied for one job, one with a foreign sounding name one called john Smith...both have the exact same qualifications for the job, I think the point being made is stats show that John Smith would get first crack.

I totally disagree, I think the foreign, black, lgbt, would get the job as the company would be scared of ending up in court or the media for daring to discriminate.

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Post by Original Quill on Sun Sep 27, 2020 5:06 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:
Ben Reilly wrote:

Your numbers are a bit off (America's not nearly that white) but if you check the link, you'll see that a black-sounding applicant had to send out an average of 15 CVs to get a call back, whereas white-sounding CVs got a call back for every 10 sent out.

Again, the qualifications (the entire rest of the CVs, actually) were identical.

But black population in USA is around 13%...

So it is highly likely that a job has significantly more non black applicants than black applicants.

Not an issue. Employment/applicant statistics are always adjusted for proportionality. Hazelwood School Dist. v. United States, 433 U.S. 299 (1977). They use a probability tool known as a 'binomial analysis'. Even the press has picked up on this and uses the phrase, proportionately adjusted.

But, when Ben speaks of a "black sounding applicant" he is reversing the equation and focusing on what the individual confronts, not the population. A black applicant must work 50% harder (15/10) to get a call back.

Even so, I am surprised. I would have thought it was higher.

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Post by Tommy Monk on Sun Sep 27, 2020 8:42 pm

Didgee wrote:
Tommy Monk wrote:



But black population in USA is around 13%...


So it is highly likely that a job has significantly more non black applicants than black applicants.



The above is both true and false

Dependent on the place in the us

The demographic changes around the us on ethnicity and also job types



Exactly... Which makes the original claim completely without merit... And is just meaningless waffle...






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Post by Maddog on Sun Sep 27, 2020 9:12 pm

Syl wrote:But say just two applicants applied for one job, one with a foreign sounding name one called john Smith...both have the exact same qualifications for the job, I think the point being made is stats show that John Smith would get first crack.

It would depend on the job.

Plenty of small businesses are owned by non native Americans (people born elsewhere, not people who are not American Indians, which is no longer a politically correct term).

They will hire others, with similar backgrounds as their own.

In small business, people are forming teams that need to work well with each other. It's not unusual to a form a team that looks like you. It can also become problematic in terms of trying to achieve some sort of diversity.

I used to live near a convenience store where everyone was Nepalese that worked there. The owner was, and he liked to hire young people form his home country to work there. I'm cool with that, but an argument could be made that he's being discriminatory.

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Post by Original Quill on Sun Sep 27, 2020 11:28 pm

Discrimination on the basis of national origin is unlawful. Even if the business does not meet the minimum 15 employees, they also may be subject to federal law if closely affiliated with other small businesses.

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Post by inmyopinion on Mon Sep 28, 2020 10:22 am

Original Quill wrote:Discrimination on the basis of national origin is unlawful.  Even if the business does not meet the minimum 15 employees, they also may be subject to federal law if closely affiliated with other small businesses.

and of course the law is never bent or broken.

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Post by Syl on Mon Sep 28, 2020 12:53 pm

Maddog wrote:
Syl wrote:But say just two applicants applied for one job, one with a foreign sounding name one called john Smith...both have the exact same qualifications for the job, I think the point being made is stats show that John Smith would get first crack.

It would depend on the job.

Plenty of small businesses are owned by non native Americans (people born elsewhere, not people who are not American Indians, which is no longer a politically correct term).

They will hire others, with similar backgrounds as their own.

In small business, people are forming teams that need to work well with each other. It's not unusual to a form a team that looks like you. It can also become problematic in terms of trying to achieve some sort of diversity.

I used to live near a convenience store where everyone was Nepalese that worked there. The owner was, and he liked to hire young people form his home country to work there. I'm cool with that, but an argument could be made that he's being discriminatory.  

Women have been overlooked for decades because they don't look like the male boss even if they were better qualified for the job, and if they did get it, they are often still underpaid compared to their male counterpart.
legally of course this shouldn't happen....but it does.

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Post by Syl on Mon Sep 28, 2020 12:55 pm

inmyopinion wrote:
Syl wrote:But say just two applicants applied for one job, one with a foreign sounding name one called john Smith...both have the exact same qualifications for the job, I think the point being made is stats show that John Smith would get first crack.

I totally disagree, I think the foreign, black, lgbt, would get the job as the company would be scared of ending up in court or the media for daring to discriminate.

Proving someone had chosen John Smith for any other reason than they were better suited to the job would be hard in a court of law though.

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Post by inmyopinion on Mon Sep 28, 2020 2:46 pm

Syl wrote:
inmyopinion wrote:

I totally disagree, I think the foreign, black, lgbt, would get the job as the company would be scared of ending up in court or the media for daring to discriminate.

Proving someone had chosen John Smith for any other reason than they were better suited to the job would be hard in a court of law though.

it might well be hard to prove but most companies would not risk the negative publicity.

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Post by Original Quill on Mon Sep 28, 2020 5:41 pm

inmyopinion wrote:
Original Quill wrote:Discrimination on the basis of national origin is unlawful.  Even if the business does not meet the minimum 15 employees, they also may be subject to federal law if closely affiliated with other small businesses.

and of course the law is never bent or broken.

RW employers often try. That's why the US Equal Employment Opportunity Commission (EEOC) exists.

People rob banks, too. They usually get caught.

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Post by Original Quill on Mon Sep 28, 2020 5:51 pm

Syl wrote:
inmyopinion wrote:

I totally disagree, I think the foreign, black, lgbt, would get the job as the company would be scared of ending up in court or the media for daring to discriminate.

Proving someone had chosen John Smith for any other reason than they were better suited to the job would be hard in a court of law though.

Not really.  The US Supreme Court wrote an opinion, providing the template for proof in just such a case: Texas Dept. of Community Affairs v. Burdine, 450 U.S. 248 (1981).

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Post by Syl on Mon Sep 28, 2020 8:09 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Syl wrote:

Proving someone had chosen John Smith for any other reason than they were better suited to the job would be hard in a court of law though.

Not really.  The US Supreme Court wrote an opinion, providing the template for proof in just such a case: Texas Dept. of Community Affairs v. Burdine, 450 U.S. 248 (1981).

I don't see how discrimination could be proved if 2 people went for a job both equally qualified, and the white man got the job over the black applicant.
In any case, sometimes it's just down to personal preference regardless of colour......we all take to some people over others, next time, in that same company, the black man might be more appealing than the white applicant.

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Post by Original Quill on Mon Sep 28, 2020 8:21 pm

Syl wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

Not really.  The US Supreme Court wrote an opinion, providing the template for proof in just such a case: Texas Dept. of Community Affairs v. Burdine, 450 U.S. 248 (1981).

I don't see how discrimination could be proved if 2 people went for a job both equally qualified, and the white man got the job over the black applicant.
In any case, sometimes it's just down to personal preference regardless of colour......we all take to some people over others, next time, in that same company, the black man might be more appealing than the white applicant.

That's why Burdine offers a special formula for a legal test.  First, it poses the prima facie case.  Second, it takes and considers the defense.  Then the burden shifts to the pretextual case.

It is in the third case (pretext) that the court sorts out discrimination from other, non-discriminatory factors.  Everything is taken into consideration, such as timing, contrary behavior, former statements against interest, and comparisons with treatment of non-minorities.

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Post by inmyopinion on Mon Sep 28, 2020 11:23 pm

Original Quill wrote:
inmyopinion wrote:

and of course the law is never bent or broken.

RW employers often try.  That's why the US Equal Employment Opportunity Commission (EEOC) exists.

People rob banks, too.  They usually get caught.

the fantasy world you live in must be amazing.lol

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