Taking the Knee.

by Syl Thu Jun 18, 2020 1:13 pm

First topic message reminder :

God...I hate that expression, and I agree with a lot of what Dominic Raab has said.
No idea about the Game of Thrones connection, but I also think it looks like an act of subordination rather than liberation.

"Dominic Raab: taking the knee 'feels like symbol of subjugation'

The pose, in which people pause with one knee on the ground, has become ubiquitous as a way of showing support for Black Lives Matter and respect for those such as George Floyd, who died at the hands of police in Minneapolis.

The Labour leader, Keir Starmer, is among those in the UK who have adopted the pose. Some police officers have also done so at protests, , and Premier League footballers and officials took the knee on Wednesday before the first games since the pause in the season caused by coronavirus.

Speaking to Talk Radio on Thursday, Raab was asked whether he would adopt the pose. He replied: “Do you know what? I understand this sense of frustration, of restlessness, which is driving the Black Lives Matter movement.

“I’ve got say, on this take the knee thing – which, I don’t know, maybe it’s got a broader history but it seems to be taken from the Game of Thrones – feels to me like a symbol of subjugation and subordination, rather than one of liberation and emancipation. But I understand people feel differently about it, so it’s a matter of personal choice.”

It is not clear why Raab believed the pose came from Game of Thrones, the popular TV fantasy series.

It began in 2016 when Kaepernick, then a quarterback for the San Francisco 49ers, opted to sit on the team bench rather than stand for the pre-NFL game rendition of the US national anthem, in protest against racism and police brutality.

Asked whether he would take the knee to show solidarity with Black Lives Matter, Raab said he would not, adding: “I’d take the knee for two people: the Queen and the Mrs when I asked her to marry me.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/jun/18/dominic-raab-taking-the-knee-feels-like-symbol-of-subjugation

by Eilzel Sat Jun 20, 2020 12:52 am

Ben Reilly wrote:What's happening right now is a lot of open, honest communication, and that gets messy. Hurt feelings come up. Misunderstandings will be revealed. It's a process that can't be hurried and has to happen.

Society will improve if we don't lose trust in the sincerity of the majority of people on both sides of this issue. If we stop listening, stop communicating, things will only get worse.

People don't like open, honest communicatiom when they don't want to hear it.

Blacks take a knee - they are wrong.
Blacks protest - they are wrong.
Blacks riot and loot - they are wrong.

On the last one I agree, wonder how it came to that?

Let's be honest, the system, those who control it, and those who benefit from it, really just don't want to hear about this problem.

by Maddog Sat Jun 20, 2020 1:43 am

Vintage wrote:Supporting a cause in the way you wish is one thing, being coerced by community pressure into showing your support in a particular way, either by 'taking a knee' or businesses putting up a sign saying you support BLM because you are afraid there may be consequences is something else - fascism.

The sign reminds me of passover. Better have the lambs blood on your door or an angel of death (ok, angel of brick) will pay you a visit in the night.

by Original Quill Sat Jun 20, 2020 2:34 am

Vintage wrote:Supporting a cause in the way you wish is one thing, being coerced by community pressure into showing your support in a particular way, either by 'taking a knee' or businesses putting up a sign saying you support BLM because you are afraid there may be consequences is something else - fascism.

Why do you feel that there is any coercion? If you don't like BLM, just say so. This is a democracy...you will either win, or lose. Get in the game.

Capitalists deal in falsity because they will sacrifice anything for profit. We always knew they had no moral convictions. If they want to be a hollow shell, let 'em. I could care less about them.

by Vintage Sat Jun 20, 2020 9:12 am

I haven't claimed there is. I am saying there shouldn't be although very often there is pressure of some kind to support various causes or at least to be seen to be 'supporting' it. Although I do wonder if people are being actually supportive or afraid of not being seen to be supportive including businesses and politicians.
I have heard reports of people talking of boycotting businesses that don't have a sign supporting BLM, if they are true I don't know as yet.

by Original Quill Sat Jun 20, 2020 2:18 pm

Vintage wrote:I haven't claimed there is. I am saying there shouldn't be although very often there is pressure of some kind to support various causes or at least to be seen to be 'supporting' it. Although I do wonder if people are being actually supportive or afraid of not being seen to be supportive including businesses and politicians.
I have heard reports of people talking of boycotting businesses that don't have a sign supporting BLM, if they are true I don't know as yet.

If you feel there is no coercion, what do you make of the “pressure of some kind to support various causes…” You would be better to be honest and simply declare you do not support BLM.

I think the force you feel is within. The “pressure of some kind” is of the personal kind. You know that you cannot look at the life leaking out of George Floyd and not be incensed, and that anger, derived from genuine sympathy, is the “pressure of some kind” that you feel.

Yet this runs against some sort of conviction you have heretofore made, to be indifferent, and to oppose any leftward causes. Zig, zag, back and forth…it’s a lot easier to just sort out your feelings of the immediate situation, and to hell with any convictions and causes.

by HoratioTarr Sat Jun 20, 2020 2:53 pm

by Vintage Sat Jun 20, 2020 3:25 pm

OH please, Quill are you saying no one is ever coerced in anyway to support a cause, maybe its only the causes you support that you think don't put pressure on people, politicians and businesses because you think they are right but those you dislike would naturally be bad and pressurise people. There are numerous examples of people having to toe the line to be accepted by everyone else, sometimes its just social death, sometimes its livelihood death then sometimes its actual death. Personally I don't support BLM I do support equality and that all lives matter to someone. I can't say though that the human race in general is a favourite of mine.

by Maddog Sat Jun 20, 2020 4:17 pm

Vintage wrote:OH please, Quill are you saying no one is ever coerced in anyway to support a cause, maybe its only the causes you support that you think don't put pressure on people, politicians and businesses because you think they are right but those you dislike would naturally be bad and pressurise people. There are numerous examples of people having to toe the line to be accepted by everyone else, sometimes its just social death, sometimes its livelihood death then sometimes its actual death. Personally I don't support BLM I do support equality and that all lives matter to someone. I can't say though that the human race in general is a favourite of mine.

We have had businesses here that faced protests simply because they didnt want to get involved

There are now decals for the doors showing support for BLM. That's why I compared it to the lambs blood of passover.

by Original Quill Sat Jun 20, 2020 4:21 pm

HoratioTarr wrote:

That is such a piece of pablum bullshit, HT.

1. In this country, 99.95% of the people have some racism in them. I will admit that in the south it reaches epidemic proportions, but in the rest of the country they still don’t want blacks as neighbors.

2. No, most police would not risk their lives for you. Most of police work is clerical and mundane. So mundane, that when a real conflict situation arises cops have the same adrenalin-pumping sensation that you would have. Couple that with the racist zeitgeist, and a measurable portion of the police having that adrenalin-pumping sensation will instinctively act adversely toward the black suspect.

3. If you see evil, believe it. Act on it. Sometimes the wool can be pulled over your eyes, or you are too soon forgetful. How do you think racism has existed for over 400-years, while being a recognized evil?

by Maddog Sat Jun 20, 2020 4:23 pm

Racism has existed for more like 40,000 years.

by Original Quill Sat Jun 20, 2020 4:30 pm

Maddog wrote:Racism has existed for more like 40,000 years.

Yes, hide in the clouds. The modern history of racism still exists, and is killing African and Hispanic peoples in America as we speak.

by Tommy Monk Sat Jun 20, 2020 4:35 pm

Blacks kill blacks every day... And they kill whites and Latinos too...

Blacks were owners of slaves during slavery... Blacks are still owners of slaves in Africa...

by Original Quill Sat Jun 20, 2020 4:55 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:

Blacks kill blacks every day... And they kill whites and Latinos too...

Blacks were owners of slaves during slavery... Blacks are still owners of slaves in Africa...

Those are the usual justifications for racism. But you sound as if you are on the verge of arguing for the return of slavery. Your enthusiasm is amazing.

by Vintage Sat Jun 20, 2020 6:16 pm

How on earth is pointing that slavery still exists and that black people were and are slave owners being enthusiastic about slavery or being on the point of arguing to bring it back.
The people of all hues that I see around me hardly seem to be downtrodden racially, I see people working at everything from cleaners, porters and drivers to shop owners, officers of law and order/courts, medical staff from nurses to consultants surely if the UK is so racist I'd only see the cleaners. porters and drivers. Why if there is so much racism why do Asian children do very well in education while black and white boys are at the lowest end of the achievement scale, why I don't know, could it be lack of application?
Is it perhaps we are racist by degrees of colour that wouldn't answer the white non achievers though. As for health - apparently black people don't get the same help as whites and presumably others, so that means black people are racist to black people as non whites are keeping the NHS going.

by Original Quill Sat Jun 20, 2020 11:30 pm

Vintage wrote:Why if there is so much racism why do Asian children do very well in education while black and white boys are at the lowest end of the achievement scale, why I don't know, could it be lack of application?

I don't find that to be the case. I find the young males of color to be among the highest achievers at Berkeley, and other universities I have been associated with. And I, as a white male, have two doctorate degrees, and a master’s degree...so I guess the white males do well, too.

I don't know why Asians achieve so well. Of course, growing up in the San Francisco area I am familiar with the tongs, or Asian organized crime, so I'm tempted to say it goes both ways. But that would be uncharitable. I can only say that Asians are raised to be high achievers.

by Original Quill Sat Jun 20, 2020 11:45 pm

Vintage wrote:As for health - apparently black people don't get the same help as whites and presumably others, so that means black people are racist to black people as non whites are keeping the NHS going.

Need I remind you that blacks started out in North America as slaves? From there they went on to Jim Crow, peonage, separate but equal, segregation and today it's the back-lashers like you, pissed off because blacks are finally fighting against the establishment to get their due.

Blacks didn't start out with equality, and they have never have had a real chance in the race. Today, white resentment (or blatant racism, still) has kept the jackboot on their backs. Literally, you saw it with George Floyd. But figuratively, it's in health, housing, education, employment and every other service that modern society offers participants.

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