Does private healthcare contribute the Covid-19 pandemic?

by Original Quill Sat Mar 07, 2020 11:34 pm

First topic message reminder :

Like the anti-vaxers, the US lack of a comprehensive healthcare aids in spreading disease. Whereas anti-vaxers have religious, and some secular reasons for not seeking vaccines, some 30-million Americans have economic reasons for not seeking medical care: they can't afford it. A nation with a national healthcare system doesn't have this problem.

By not seeking detection and treatment, that's 30-million disease spreaders walking among us. What if a child of an uncovered poor family infects the child of a covered wealthy family? Isn't it a small price to pay for their corporate tax break?

by Original Quill Mon Mar 09, 2020 5:09 pm

Maddog wrote:
Cass wrote:Didge I think we are coming at this conversation from different angles. I get what you’re saying re the vaccine. I do believe the US will probably come up with a vaccine first but what I am getting at is that it won’t matter here because people could not afford it because of private insurance. They NHS may be put under severe strain for a while, but they won’t EVER turn down care to a person for lack of money. That’s the single biggest difference. As someone who has dealt with both systems ( and funnily enough the German and French systems which have both pros and cons), trust me.

Also the Aggie brings up a good point about people here in the states favoring their “rights” above being told to do something by the government even if its for their own safety. That along with the lack of protection for the rights of workers is going to play a very important role in how this plays out over here.

There may or may not be leftovers as it smells divine. Gotta wait one more hour!

If it's like the flu shot, everyone that wants it, will get it. Medicare, Medicade and the county hospitals will give it to the poor. The rest will have the money or insurance to get it on their own.

It will be like vaccines. Cost doesnt stop people from getting them.

The big caveat in the "rights" argument, is the condition that that there is an individual choice, in what is essentially a community right. As was pointed out in Mancur Olsen's book, The Logic of Collective Action, 'individual choice' doesn't just happen in a vacuum. Amid a situation calling for unanimity of purpose of a group, individual right destroys the collective action.

Vaccines present such a situation. The whole idea of vaccination is to blanket the response to a disease, allowing no exception to rekindle the pathogen. But individual right allows for tearing up the blanket. If any individual can 'break the rule', the rule is rendered useless. In that sense, the individual right runs counter to the community right.

by Maddog Mon Mar 09, 2020 5:18 pm

Cass wrote:
Maddog wrote:

If it's like the flu shot, everyone that wants it, will get it. Medicare, Medicade and the county hospitals will give it to the poor. The rest will have the money or insurance to get it on their own.

It will be like vaccines. Cost doesnt stop people from getting them.

We don’t have a county hospital. Not a lot of places do anymore except for big areas.

The county health department does do free immunizations for 18 and under and has limited availability for those adults without insurance but how do they get to the clinics when there is no transportation? ACCHS or Medicaid has been stripped down to the bare bones here in AZ with a lot of adults being denied coverage. Those with any type of insurance do have to pay a fee either through insurance, at the health department or at a clinic like Walmart/CVS/Walgreens. A hell of a lot of people cannot afford $25 to pay or more for a shot. Including all of my volunteers. It’s really that simple. I’m not trying to be superior, or a know it all, honestly. I’m just trying to show you and others what the day to day reality is of rural Americans living in poverty.

But in my opinion this all is all kind of moot because by the time the vaccine is widely available, it will be too late. It will help in the future but right now people have to start taking this a bit more seriously. If a great world wide pandemic doesn’t happen, well that’s terrific and the best outcome. But in situations like this, there are far too many variables in the mix.

The amount of memes on Facebook this morning about bloody toilet paper running out is beyond ridiculous. I’ve said it once and I’ll say it again, better to be prepared and have a plan for worst case scenario than being caught out. If something bad happens, then who is going to be shouting the loudest? Those who didn’t plan. I realize that not everybody can afford or prep and that I’m extremely lucky that I can. But I’m going to try my hardest to make sure that I can help as much as possible with my patrons or those in need in my town. Because as well as buying stuff for us I’ve bought stuff for the local food pantries. I’m not a saint. Far from it. It’s just common decency.

How do people get food to feed themselves?

by Cass Mon Mar 09, 2020 5:52 pm

Maddog wrote:
Cass wrote:

We don’t have a county hospital. Not a lot of places do anymore except for big areas.

The county health department does do free immunizations for 18 and under and has limited availability for those adults without insurance but how do they get to the clinics when there is no transportation? ACCHS or Medicaid has been stripped down to the bare bones here in AZ with a lot of adults being denied coverage. Those with any type of insurance do have to pay a fee either through insurance, at the health department or at a clinic like Walmart/CVS/Walgreens. A hell of a lot of people cannot afford $25 to pay or more for a shot. Including all of my volunteers. It’s really that simple. I’m not trying to be superior, or a know it all, honestly. I’m just trying to show you and others what the day to day reality is of rural Americans living in poverty.

But in my opinion this all is all kind of moot because by the time the vaccine is widely available, it will be too late. It will help in the future but right now people have to start taking this a bit more seriously. If a great world wide pandemic doesn’t happen, well that’s terrific and the best outcome. But in situations like this, there are far too many variables in the mix.

The amount of memes on Facebook this morning about bloody toilet paper running out is beyond ridiculous. I’ve said it once and I’ll say it again, better to be prepared and have a plan for worst case scenario than being caught out. If something bad happens, then who is going to be shouting the loudest? Those who didn’t plan. I realize that not everybody can afford or prep and that I’m extremely lucky that I can. But I’m going to try my hardest to make sure that I can help as much as possible with my patrons or those in need in my town. Because as well as buying stuff for us I’ve bought stuff for the local food pantries. I’m not a saint. Far from it. It’s just common decency.

How do people get food to feed themselves?

With difficulty. There are a few family dollar type stores, which as you know have no fresh food, a few CircleKs and other gas station type convenience stores and food commodities on one day a month at the fire station. People without transport use strollers, pull along wagons or try to help out a neighbor. Most of the fresh stuff is on the verge of turning bad and I have some patrons who do not have storage, running clean safe water and in some cases electricity. No public transport. The nearest grocery store (Walmart) is between 30-50 miles away depending on where my patrons live.

Food desserts are not just rural. They’re in urban areas as well.

by Maddog Mon Mar 09, 2020 6:08 pm

Cass wrote:
Maddog wrote:

How do people get food to feed themselves?

With difficulty. There are a few family dollar type stores, which as you know have no fresh food, a few CircleKs and other gas station type convenience stores and food commodities on one day a month at the fire station. People without transport use strollers, pull along wagons or try to help out a neighbor. Most of the fresh stuff is on the verge of turning bad and I have some patrons who do not have storage, running clean safe water and in some cases electricity. No public transport. The nearest grocery store (Walmart) is between 30-50 miles away depending on where my patrons live.

Food desserts are not just rural. They’re in urban areas as well.

I guess folks can pull each other in wagons to get their free or low cost shots.

by Cass Mon Mar 09, 2020 7:13 pm

Maddog wrote:
Cass wrote:

With difficulty. There are a few family dollar type stores, which as you know have no fresh food, a few CircleKs and other gas station type convenience stores and food commodities on one day a month at the fire station. People without transport use strollers, pull along wagons or try to help out a neighbor. Most of the fresh stuff is on the verge of turning bad and I have some patrons who do not have storage, running clean safe water and in some cases electricity. No public transport. The nearest grocery store (Walmart) is between 30-50 miles away depending on where my patrons live.

Food desserts are not just rural. They’re in urban areas as well.

I guess folks can pull each other in wagons to get their free or low cost shots.

I’ll be sure to pass that idea along.

by 'Wolfie Mon Mar 09, 2020 11:57 pm

Maddog wrote:And the vaccine will most likely be created in the US, and quite possibly in one of our universities that have government subsidized research.

Bullshit...

Veya and I have both been over this before...

And true to form, nationalist bullshitter Maddog refuses to listen to the truth..

It's been more than 40 years since the USA has been a "world leader" in this area.

by 'Wolfie Tue Mar 10, 2020 12:06 am

Maddog wrote:
Cass wrote:Didge I think we are coming at this conversation from different angles. I get what you’re saying re the vaccine. I do believe the US will probably come up with a vaccine first but what I am getting at is that it won’t matter here because people could not afford it because of private insurance. They NHS may be put under severe strain for a while, but they won’t EVER turn down care to a person for lack of money. That’s the single biggest difference. As someone who has dealt with both systems ( and funnily enough the German and French systems which have both pros and cons), trust me.

Also the Aggie brings up a good point about people here in the states favoring their “rights” above being told to do something by the government even if its for their own safety. That along with the lack of protection for the rights of workers is going to play a very important role in how this plays out over here.

There may or may not be leftovers as it smells divine. Gotta wait one more hour!

If it's like the flu shot, everyone that wants it, will get it. Medicare, Medicade and the county hospitals will give it to the poor. The rest will have the money or insurance to get it on their own.

It will be like vaccines. Cost doesnt stop people from getting them.

And another outright nationalist lie from the forums #1 bullshitter...

As has been shown during every national level disaster in the US, necessary aid is always delayed getting to where it's really needed..

Just think Hurricane Katrina, way back when (2005, when George Dubya was el Presidente), and every major 'natural disaster' since.

This time round it might be toilet paper and dust masks that Donnie Dumpster is throwing out into the crowd, rather than his infamous paper towel effort a couple of years ago.. Trump declared a national emergency to help fund his "wall", but refuses to declare as such with this impending pandemic...

by JulesV Wed Mar 11, 2020 4:03 pm

Original Quill wrote:Like the anti-vaxers, the US lack of a comprehensive healthcare aids in spreading disease. Whereas anti-vaxers have religious, and some secular reasons for not seeking vaccines, some 30-million Americans have economic reasons for not seeking medical care: they can't afford it. A nation with a national healthcare system doesn't have this problem.

By not seeking detection and treatment, that's 30-million disease spreaders walking among us. What if a child of an uncovered poor family infects the child of a covered wealthy family? Isn't it a small price to pay for their corporate tax break?

The US has a very wealthy economy. A shitty health care system that excludes many, is something to be deeply ashamed of.

by Maddog Wed Mar 11, 2020 4:41 pm

JulesV wrote:
Original Quill wrote:Like the anti-vaxers, the US lack of a comprehensive healthcare aids in spreading disease. Whereas anti-vaxers have religious, and some secular reasons for not seeking vaccines, some 30-million Americans have economic reasons for not seeking medical care: they can't afford it. A nation with a national healthcare system doesn't have this problem.

By not seeking detection and treatment, that's 30-million disease spreaders walking among us. What if a child of an uncovered poor family infects the child of a covered wealthy family? Isn't it a small price to pay for their corporate tax break?
The US has a very wealthy economy. A shitty health care system that excludes many, is something to be deeply ashamed of.

Sure does.

by Original Quill Wed Mar 11, 2020 5:19 pm

Maddog wrote:
JulesV wrote:
The US has a very wealthy economy. A shitty health care system that excludes many, is something to be deeply ashamed of.

Sure does.

And it's brought about primarily by Democratic administrations, which must spend half their time filling in the economic pot holes left by Republicans. GWB took a healthy, balanced budget, brought about by a Democrat, and drove it into a repeat of the Great Depression in 2008--incidentally, by inventing meaningless wars--which the next Democratic administration had to spend half its efforts to right.

Now, we have this glorious economy, brought about by the continuing soundness of the efforts of Barack Obama, and it's being pounded into the ground by the idiotic policies of the useful idiot of Putin, the illiterate, impeached President Trump. The World Health Organization (WHO) has just pronounced a pandemic exists, largely because Trump shut down public protections in national health.

Ninety percent of the nation's schools must close. Parents must stay home in order to care for those children. Because parents cannot go to work, production in their workplaces cease. Because they cannot produce, businesses suffer total losses. Because businesses cannot produce, stocks drop and markets implode. And that's before we even look at the real problem: PEOPLE ARE UNDER SIEGE BY A MICROBE WE KNOW NOTHING ABOUT! We know nothing about it, because impeached Trump didn't think it worthy of research-funding.

Another fine mess that Democrats will have to clean up! Or, perhaps we'll get lucky. Perhaps impeached Trump will be re-elected and given the opportunity to finish off America altogether. Then, finally, we can welcome Putin in a July 4th parade, with tanks tearing up Pennsylvania Avenue, consistent with impeached Trump's legacy of leaving bankruptcies and other trash in his wake.

by Maddog Wed Mar 11, 2020 11:35 pm

The Italian system is overloaded and failing.

Wonder what kind of system they have? Wink

by 'Wolfie Thu Mar 12, 2020 1:05 am

Maddog wrote:The Italian system is overloaded and failing.

Wonder what kind of system they have?

Italy is a capitalist democracy, with 'socialist' oriented national health and public education systems...

It's health system, however, is no longer compared with the top 10, when it comes to its efficacy -- thanks to national debt levels, Catholic church interference, and political instabilty (the WHO ranked Italy's health service as #2 after France back in 2000, but that was a long time ago, now)..

Italy currently has a "right wing" free market oriented guvm'nt, with the genuine "socialist leaning" parties sitting in opposition -- even then, many American right wing twonks will still be labelling Italy's fascists and corporatists as a bunch of "pinko's", by the usual Repug' standards.

Italy also has a relatively and strained crippled economy -- with its 100% plus national debt being even higher than the US or Japan; (and more than double that of Australia, Canada, or even Cuba -- when measured as a % of GDP..). Italy's economy is heavily dependent on manufacturing and tourism, making them even more vulnerable to various disasters than, say, Germany, France or Britain might be.. Even though they still have the 8th biggest economy in the world.

by Victorismyhero Thu Mar 12, 2020 1:11 am

Does private healthcare contribute the Covid-19 pandemic?

Well given how its practiced in the good ole USA, it sure aint going to help none.....

and coupled with their shoddy social care and welfare system, it will cause a total fuck up

by Maddog Thu Mar 12, 2020 4:53 am

Victorismyhero wrote:Does private healthcare contribute the Covid-19 pandemic?

Well given how its practiced in the good ole USA, it sure aint going to help none.....

and coupled with their shoddy social care and welfare system, it will cause a total fuck up

The US of A has a shit ton of high end equipment in every hospital. That's why we have the most expensive healthcare on the planet.

It sorta sucks when you stub your toe and don't have insurance.

It doesn't suck when a shit load of people need a lot of high end care.

Not to worry, the deaths in Italy won't change their numbers much. A few thousand extra deaths won't matter to the statisticians.

by Original Quill Thu Mar 12, 2020 3:18 pm

Victor wrote:Well given how its practiced in the good ole USA, it sure aint going to help none.....

As of this am, the CDC had given out less than 10,000 test kits for the entire United States.

Instead of taking the US approach of minimizing the pandemic--impeached President Trump says it will be over by the weekend--South Korea has embraced a model of open information, public participation and widespread testing.

South Korea has conducted more diagnostic tests faster than any other country -- around 10,000 per day -- which specialists say has helped the country with early detection of patients and tackling the infection's epicentre.

South Korea can carry out more than 15,000 diagnostic tests a day, and had conducted 220,000 as of Wednesday. It has more than 500 designated testing clinics, including over 40 drive-through facilities that minimize contact between patients and medical workers.

Whoever he is, let's make the South Korean Director of Public Health, head of our CDC.

by 'Wolfie Fri Mar 13, 2020 12:39 am

Team Trump needs to park their blind arrogance at the door...

And wisen up to wear the spend the taxpayers' funds...

Otherwise the Democrats would be able win the November election hands down, even if they decided to put a drowned sewer rat up as their candidate rather than an actual human-type person.

by Cass Fri Mar 13, 2020 4:02 am

Victorismyhero wrote:Does private healthcare contribute the Covid-19 pandemic?

Well given how its practiced in the good ole USA, it sure aint going to help none.....

and coupled with their shoddy social care and welfare system, it will cause a total fuck up

Haven’t you heard Vic? We’re gonna pray that damn commie virus away!

by Cass Fri Mar 13, 2020 4:03 am

'Wolfie wrote:

Team Trump needs to park their blind arrogance at the door...

And wisen up to wear the spend the taxpayers' funds...

Otherwise the Democrats would be able win the November election hands down, even if they decided to put a drowned sewer rat up as their candidate rather than an actual human-type person.

Nononono Wolfie. It’s our fault for starting it because we want to hurt the orange thing in an election year. Do keep up!

by Original Quill Fri Mar 13, 2020 11:03 am

The main problem with the US response is, we can't track the damn bug. That is because we have fallen behind on providing test kits. The federal government sent hundreds of thousands of tests to California, but without the chemicals. A lotta good that will do.

It is being reported that Trump is deliberately slowing down the development of tests because he is afraid that, if administered, they will reveal numbers thousands of times greater than we now have. He's afraid it will hurt his chances at election time.

Earth to Trump: you are aiding and abetting a pandemic. Everyone knows it...just look at the stock market. It knows you are lying. You ain't gonna get elected nohow. You can't bullshit your way out of this one with some alternative fact. Reality consistently wins.

by Maddog Fri Mar 13, 2020 2:03 pm

Cass wrote:
'Wolfie wrote:

Team Trump needs to park their blind arrogance at the door...

And wisen up to wear the spend the taxpayers' funds...

Otherwise the Democrats would be able win the November election hands down, even if they decided to put a drowned sewer rat up as their candidate rather than an actual human-type person.

Nononono Wolfie. It’s our fault for starting it because we want to hurt the orange thing in an election year. Do keep up!

Neither party in the US started it, but they will no doubt use something like this to further their agenda. They won't admit it, but it happens. Been happening since year dot.

The trick is to make folks feel like your helping them, while you're using fear to manipulate them.

by Original Quill Fri Mar 13, 2020 4:25 pm

Maddog wrote:
Cass wrote:

Nononono Wolfie. It’s our fault for starting it because we want to hurt the orange thing in an election year. Do keep up!

Neither party in the US started it, but they will no doubt use something like this to further their agenda. They won't admit it, but it happens. Been happening since year dot.

The trick is to make folks feel like your helping them, while you're using fear to manipulate them.

You're just playing the same ole tribal game...defusing causation by saying everyone is doing it!

The cause is Trump, who early on cut funds to such "liberal" programs as healthcare. He cut every last dollar from the Department of Health, and stripped any and all regulations, saying they inhibit the pharma's profit-taking. Now, when we see that those regulations were for the protection of the people, Republicans are going around saying, everyone is to blame.

If we don't learn to place blame, we will never avoid it next time. It's deflection: 'everyone is to blame' is a statement to the effect, I'm afraid to ask questions about cause, because I know the blame will stop at my own Republican feet! Whether it is Tories, calling it austerity, or Republicans, calling it regulation-cutting, the proposition is the same: cut corners, make profits, and risk the fate of the little guys, the public...filthy buggers can't even make their first $-million.

Republicans, who put up and support impeached President Trump, are the cause of this disaster.
They own it...they should pay for it.

by 'Wolfie Sat Mar 14, 2020 12:04 am

Those ultra-conservative leaders -- Trump, BJ, Putin and co., need to ignore their corporate backers for the time being, and start listening to their actual 'advisors' -- and do the right thing for their countries...

Trump needs to greatly increase his executive's efforts -- a hundred-fold increase in screening,, testing and research; and a twenty-fold increase in "stimulus" spending for the economy (starting with exta-ordinary welfare payments - the single most effective measure to "pump prime" a recessive economy..); and the US guvm'nt need only delay some of its extraneous military spending to easily cover these costs..

And Trump needs to tell his corporate_healthcare and 'big pharma' buddies to back off -- or else slap them with a "scamsters' tax" on their 50% profit margins every time those thieving corporate snowflakes whinge and whine.

by Cass Sat Mar 14, 2020 3:11 am

To be fair, The Aggie is right. Extremists on both sides will always take advantage. Nature of the beast.

BUT 99%of the absolute crap and conspiracy theories that I’ve been hearing in person is from Trump supporters, both at work, daily life and on my social media.

by Original Quill Sat Mar 14, 2020 4:27 am

Cass wrote:To be fair, The Aggie is right. Extremists on both sides will always take advantage. Nature of the beast.

Cass, that is a cop-out. Blaming both sides is like kissing your sister. It's intimacy, yes, but it goes nowhere.

Someone altered the course of history. Chance intersected, no doubt, but we had in place the pandemic contingency group within the National Security Agency. Trump eliminated that, as too threatening to the capitalist pharma interests.

Now these are facts, not some wish, flaking off into never, never land. In law, we pick a winner and a loser. We need to learn to do that in our moral/political convictions. Be decisive...when someone fooks up, call 'im on it.

Trump makes his living dithering about on his whims and delusions. One day his is killing Hispanic children; the next day he is saying, I don't know...I'm not responsible. Enough...fookin already. It's an emergency...now is not the time to indulge the petulant child.
It's time for the people to put down their foot.

by 'Wolfie Sat Mar 14, 2020 6:21 am

Cass wrote:To be fair, The Aggie is right. Extremists on both sides will always take advantage. Nature of the beast.

BUT 99%of the absolute crap and conspiracy theories that I’ve been hearing in person is from Trump supporters, both at work, daily life and on my social media.

Those Trump supporters are, at heart, stupid, bone idle, scrounging and unthinking losers and denialists, pure and simple...

They're now realising that they "backed the wrong horse", believing that they were going to turn the tide against corporate Amerika by supporting a supposedly rogue billionaire bad boy who promised them he would fight against the 'establishment', and without having to do the hard yards themselves..

Now that bunch of dirt lazy, greed fuelled, fake 'evangelical', far-right nationalist snowflakes are grabbing for any possible conspiracy theory and 'fake news' claim that they can find, rather than owe up to their own collective inbred stupidity.

by Guest Sat Mar 14, 2020 10:08 am

Cass wrote:To be fair, The Aggie is right. Extremists on both sides will always take advantage. Nature of the beast.

BUT 99%of the absolute crap and conspiracy theories that I’ve been hearing in person is from Trump supporters, both at work, daily life and on my social media.

+1

by Guest Sat Mar 14, 2020 10:12 am

I think this is one of those occasions that blaming left and right helps nobody here

This is where humans need to pull all resources together and combat this

The blame only lies within a practice of live animal markets

There is a lesson to be learned off this, so we ensure this does not happen again

That does not mean we blame the people who were simple earning a living doing this. They had no idea this would happen. What we do is learn from our mistakes and not blame people for this. We ensure we do not repeat those same mistakes

by Original Quill Sat Mar 14, 2020 3:53 pm

phil wrote:I think this is one of those occasions that blaming left and right helps nobody here

This is where humans need to pull all resources together and combat this

The emphasis needs to be on the cure, to be sure. But don't be blinded by a false sense of communion. If a dam breaks and hundreds are drowned, should we all hold hands and sing Kumbaya? Or should we figure out where the dam broke, and redesign to fix the problem.

One of the things about libertarians, anarchists and conservatives, is they are not very good at pulling together. Autonomous-individualism (or, auto-individualism) points them in the opposite direction.

Conservatives address the lack of conviviality, but abandon the mission of fixing the problem that led to the discord in the first place! Everything is freedom, and limited government, and let the market take care of it, and the problem gets dropped into the abyss of nothingness. As soon as you start talking about fixing the underlying problem, it's all: oh, it's too expensive, or government shouldn't be involved, or they just go back to sleep and forget about the problem. Even more, like Trump, they calculate how they can invent some snake oil to make a profit on the situation.

Beware of calls to unity, unless the same voice has some answers. Only liberals are problem solvers, and get things done.

by Maddog Sat Mar 14, 2020 4:38 pm

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/

Seems like a pretty good source of information.

Doesn't seem like this virus cares what kind of system you have.

Time will tell if that changes.

by Original Quill Sat Mar 14, 2020 4:45 pm

Maddog wrote:Doesn't seem like this virus cares what kind of system you have.

But the kind of system you have determines how you address the problem.

by Maddog Sat Mar 14, 2020 4:48 pm

It appears, at least for the time being, that African and South American healthcare seems to slow the spread.

Of course I know it's not their healthcare, but I wonder if its warmer temps or something genetic in the populations.

Or has it just not got there yet?

by Maddog Sat Mar 14, 2020 5:14 pm

Conclusion
Currently, the Italian healthcare system is overwhelmed by the tens of thousands of COVID-19 cases it is already facing. They have turned to rationing care to prioritize the young, leaving those most at risk of the virus to essentially fend for themselves. Most just chalk this up to the severity and danger of the pandemic. However, the evidence tells a different story. It portrays a situation made far worse by a reliance on government-centralized healthcare that manages costs by de facto price rationing rather than a free market system. Although South Korea provides a basic safety net, it is also one of the closest healthcare systems in the world to a free market, outpacing to a significant degree even the US system (which includes a great number of supply-restricting regulations that only drive up costs and hurt availability). As a result, South Korean healthcare did what Italy’s already undersupplied system could not do—cope effectively with the pandemic and manage to get it under control without shutting down the entire country in the process.

https://mises.org/wire/markets-vs-socialism-why-south-korean-healthcare-outperforming-italy-covid-19#disqus_thread

The answer appears to be no.

by Original Quill Sat Mar 14, 2020 5:37 pm

South Korea undertook much more draconian distancing measures than did Italy. The question assumes all things equal. South Korea vs Italy is not a fair comparison.

The point of the question is, whether expense is a burden that dissuades one from seeking medical diagnosis and treatment? The answer is self-evident; it is asked only to point out: here is yet another cost to our archaic healthcare system. In times when the community as a whole is the patient, shutting doors on individuals because of individual cost is not in the common interest.

by Guest Sat Mar 14, 2020 5:45 pm

Original Quill wrote:
phil wrote:I think this is one of those occasions that blaming left and right helps nobody here

This is where humans need to pull all resources together and combat this

The emphasis needs to be on the cure, to be sure. But don't be blinded by a false sense of communion. If a dam breaks and hundreds are drowned, should we all hold hands and sing Kumbaya? Or should we figure out where the dam broke, and redesign to fix the problem.

One of the things about libertarians, anarchists and conservatives, is they are not very good at pulling together. Autonomous-individualism (or, auto-individualism) points them in the opposite direction.

Conservatives address the lack of conviviality, but abandon the mission of fixing the problem that led to the discord in the first place! Everything is freedom, and limited government, and let the market take care of it, and the problem gets dropped into the abyss of nothingness. As soon as you start talking about fixing the underlying problem, it's all: oh, it's too expensive, or government shouldn't be involved, or they just go back to sleep and forget about the problem. Even more, like Trump, they calculate how they can invent some snake oil to make a profit on the situation.

Beware of calls to unity, unless the same voice has some answers. Only liberals are problem solvers, and get things done.

That is simple and absolute nonsense and you do nothing further to help anything here when you politicise this

Sadly a large number of people are going to die, espcially those elderly and those with underlining health conditions

This may well very include me, having asthma

I except that reality and will not stop looking to help others, as many are already doing so

So that is bullshit to claim only liberals are problem solvers

The conservatives of the world,happen to donate the most to charities

In fact I would go out on a limb here and say it will be the religious unafraid, going out looking after people, more than any liberals, who will be selfish and look after themselves

You need to get over your political hate here Quill, it resolves nothing and just creates a further divide, when humanity needs to come together here

by Original Quill Sat Mar 14, 2020 6:31 pm

phil wrote:That is simple and absolute nonsense and you do nothing further to help anything here when you politicise this

You don't think having to pay, dearly, for something is a deterrent? Could you send me half of your net worth, if you're that generous?

by Maddog Sat Mar 14, 2020 6:35 pm

Thorin wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

The emphasis needs to be on the cure, to be sure. But don't be blinded by a false sense of communion. If a dam breaks and hundreds are drowned, should we all hold hands and sing Kumbaya? Or should we figure out where the dam broke, and redesign to fix the problem.

One of the things about libertarians, anarchists and conservatives, is they are not very good at pulling together. Autonomous-individualism (or, auto-individualism) points them in the opposite direction.

Conservatives address the lack of conviviality, but abandon the mission of fixing the problem that led to the discord in the first place! Everything is freedom, and limited government, and let the market take care of it, and the problem gets dropped into the abyss of nothingness. As soon as you start talking about fixing the underlying problem, it's all: oh, it's too expensive, or government shouldn't be involved, or they just go back to sleep and forget about the problem. Even more, like Trump, they calculate how they can invent some snake oil to make a profit on the situation.

Beware of calls to unity, unless the same voice has some answers. Only liberals are problem solvers, and get things done.

That is simple and absolute nonsense and you do nothing further to help anything here when you politicise this

Sadly a large number of people are going to die, espcially those elderly and those with underlining health conditions

This may well very include me, having asthma

I except that reality and will not stop looking to help others, as many are already doing so

So that is bullshit to claim only liberals are problem solvers

The conservatives of the world,happen to donate the most to charities

In fact I would go out on a limb here and say it will be the religious unafraid, going out looking after people, more than any liberals, who will be selfish and look after themselves

You need to get over your political hate here Quill, it resolves nothing and just creates a further divide, when humanity needs to come together here

You touch on a good point. While liberals will often vote to support the government helping people, it's often those more right of center that actually step up and get their hands dirty.

While I'm not religious, I do admire a lot of religious people who embrace serving others as part of their religion.

by Guest Sat Mar 14, 2020 6:36 pm

Original Quill wrote:
phil wrote:That is simple and absolute nonsense and you do nothing further to help anything here when you politicise this

You don't think having to pay, dearly, for something is a deterrent? Could you send me half of your net worth, if you're that generous?

Pay dearly?

Pandemics happen just about every century

No amount of money can prevent them

The Uk has one of the best policies with a view to have many healthy people over come this to provide a herd protection

Thousands are dying because, we simple have no cure

by Guest Sat Mar 14, 2020 6:38 pm

Maddog wrote:
Thorin wrote:

That is simple and absolute nonsense and you do nothing further to help anything here when you politicise this

Sadly a large number of people are going to die, espcially those elderly and those with underlining health conditions

This may well very include me, having asthma

I except that reality and will not stop looking to help others, as many are already doing so

So that is bullshit to claim only liberals are problem solvers

The conservatives of the world,happen to donate the most to charities

In fact I would go out on a limb here and say it will be the religious unafraid, going out looking after people, more than any liberals, who will be selfish and look after themselves

You need to get over your political hate here Quill, it resolves nothing and just creates a further divide, when humanity needs to come together here

You touch on a good point. While liberals will often vote to support the government helping people, it's often those more right of center that actually step up and get their hands dirty.

While I'm not religious, I do admire a lot of religious people who embrace serving others as part of their religion.

+1

Agreed, and as much as I am atheist, I know for sure, the first people to step up are those who have less fear

This happens to be religious people, who are firm in their beliefs.

Where because of this they fear death less and are more likely to seek out and help people in need

Where religious people tend to be more conservative

by Original Quill Sat Mar 14, 2020 6:43 pm

phil wrote:You need to get over your political hate here Quill, it resolves nothing and just creates a further divide, when humanity needs to come together here

Crooks always find religion after they get caught. And conservatives always seek company after they fook up the world.

The call for unity is just another ruse that sets the crook back on the road to his next victim. Today, while the Democratic Congress was hammering out a relief bill caused by Trump's callousness, Mitch McConnell, Republican Senate Majority leader, was decrying the bill, saying Democrats are tossing in policy provisions that have nothing to do with the emergency.

This, from the guy who helped cause the emergency. We wouldn't have an emergency Mitch, if you hadn't help lay waste to our public protections.

by Guest Sat Mar 14, 2020 6:45 pm

Original Quill wrote:
phil wrote:You need to get over your political hate here Quill, it resolves nothing and just creates a further divide, when humanity needs to come together here

Crooks always find religion after they get caught. And conservatives always seek company after they fook up the world.

The call for unity is just another ruse that sets the crook back on the road to his next victim. Today, while the Democratic Congress was hammering out a relief bill caused by Trump's callousness, Mitch McConnell, Republican Senate Majority leader, was decrying the bill, saying Democrats are tossing in policy provisions that have nothing to do with the emergency.

This, from the guy who helped cause the emergency. We wouldn't have an emergency Mitch, if you hadn't help lay waste to our public protections.

I truly despair at your hate Quill

At a time when we need people to unite, you seek to divide people

It beggars belief

by Maddog Sat Mar 14, 2020 6:53 pm

Thorin wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

You don't think having to pay, dearly, for something is a deterrent? Could you send me half of your net worth, if you're that generous?

Pay dearly?

Pandemics happen just about every century

No amount of money can prevent them

The Uk has one of the best policies with a view to have many healthy people over come this to provide a herd protection

Thousands are dying because, we simple have no cure

There is no financial barrier stopping Americans from getting treated for this either. Quill knows this.

Our problem is access to primary care physicians during good times. Not access during a pandemic that has been declared a state of emergency.

We live in a country prone to natural disasters. We are pretty good at dropping everything and taking on the challenge regardless of the cost. And we don't need a giant federal bureaucracy to do it.

by Guest Sat Mar 14, 2020 6:55 pm

Maddog wrote:
Thorin wrote:

Pay dearly?

Pandemics happen just about every century

No amount of money can prevent them

The Uk has one of the best policies with a view to have many healthy people over come this to provide a herd protection

Thousands are dying because, we simple have no cure

There is no financial barrier stopping Americans from getting treated for this either. Quill knows this.

Our problem is access to primary care physicians during good times. Not access during a pandemic that has been declared a state of emergency.

We live in a country prone to natural disasters. We are pretty good at dropping everything and taking on the challenge regardless of the cost. And we don't need a giant federal bureaucracy to do it.

I agree with you mate and why I truly despair at the remarks by Quill

by Original Quill Sat Mar 14, 2020 7:03 pm

Thorin wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

Crooks always find religion after they get caught. And conservatives always seek company after they fook up the world.

The call for unity is just another ruse that sets the crook back on the road to his next victim. Today, while the Democratic Congress was hammering out a relief bill caused by Trump's callousness, Mitch McConnell, Republican Senate Majority leader, was decrying the bill, saying Democrats are tossing in policy provisions that have nothing to do with the emergency.

This, from the guy who helped cause the emergency. We wouldn't have an emergency Mitch, if you hadn't help lay waste to our public protections.

I truly despair at your hate Quill

At a time when we need people to unite, you seek to divide people

It beggars belief

You weren't singing the 'unity' song three months ago, were you?

You know, I distrust a guy who is all adversarial before the storm, but is your mate when the rains come down. We call them 'fair-weather' friends.

Obama put into place all the safeguards to meet this crisis before the trouble. The Republicans, thinking profits for the Pharmas, dismantled these public protections and called them socialism. Now, when the reason for public protections is upon us, Republicans are all about sitting down around the campfire and singing Kumbaya.

Where were you when we were building a secure future? Looking for opportunities to fook-over your fellow man, no doubt. This is why the cops don't coddle the robbers. Give 'em an inch, they'll take a mile.

by Guest Sat Mar 14, 2020 7:07 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Thorin wrote:

I truly despair at your hate Quill

At a time when we need people to unite, you seek to divide people

It beggars belief

You weren't singing the 'unity' song three months ago, were you?

You know, I distrust a guy who is all adversarial before the storm, but is your mate when the rains come down. We call them 'fair-weather' friends.

Obama put into place all the safeguards to meet this crisis before the trouble. The Republicans, thinking profits for the Pharmas, dismantled these public protections and called them socialism. Now, when the reason for public protections is upon us, Republicans are all about sitting down around the campfire and singing Kumbaya.

Where were you when we were building a secure future? Looking for opportunities to fook-over your fellow man, no doubt. This is why the cops don't coddle the robbers. Give 'em an inch, they'll take a mile.

Seriously, you need to change the record

Yes you dislike trump, just as many people, so do i

We all get that

It does not matter whether Obama or Trump or Clinton being in power here

US people like everyone globally has to deal with this and no amount of money can prevent this

The fact is, it will be the religious right who contract this more than most, because they will be unafraid to go out and help others, but I doubt you will spare a single thought for them, will you?

by Original Quill Sat Mar 14, 2020 7:10 pm

Maddog wrote:Our problem is access to primary care physicians during good times. Not access during a pandemic that has been declared a state of emergency.

You're distinguishing between 'bad' and 'worse'. Not a very tenable position.

I agree that the problem is proper healthcare during the good times. But, the problem is only exacerbated in times of crisis, like these.

What is holding back proper healthcare in America? Republicans, including libertarians like you, who don't want a proper safety net...except maybe, when your slaves rise up.

by Original Quill Sat Mar 14, 2020 7:16 pm

phil wrote:It does not matter whether Obama or Trump or Clinton being in power here

See...right there. You want everyone to sing Kumbaby? Then start paying your dues and stop fookin people over, before the hard times.

by Guest Sat Mar 14, 2020 7:23 pm

Original Quill wrote:
phil wrote:It does not matter whether Obama or Trump or Clinton being in power here

See...right there. You want everyone to sing Kumbaby? Then start paying your dues and stop fookin people over, before the hard times.

Well where you are by anger, I try to see past this and even would help you in your hour of need

Even though you can be a right royal pain in the arse

by Original Quill Sat Mar 14, 2020 7:28 pm

Thorin wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

See...right there. You want everyone to sing Kumbaby? Then start paying your dues and stop fookin people over, before the hard times.

Well where you are by anger, I try to see past this and even would help you in your hour of need

Even though you can be a right royal pain in the arse

You spend years destroying trust, out for profit, and now you are surprised when there is no trust there? Where's your head, man!?

by Guest Sat Mar 14, 2020 7:29 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Thorin wrote:

Well where you are by anger, I try to see past this and even would help you in your hour of need

Even though you can be a right royal pain in the arse

You spend years destroying trust, out for profit, and now you are surprised when there is no trust there? Where's your head, man!?

Come again?

Out for profit?

You have not the first clue about me Quill, do you?

by Original Quill Sat Mar 14, 2020 7:31 pm

phil wrote:You have not the first clue about me Quill, do you?

I sure have a clue about Tories and Republicans.

by Sponsored content