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Who Would Have Thought Conservatives would be the ones to defend female rights?

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Post by Guest on Sat Feb 29, 2020 10:18 pm

Women look set to be guaranteed female-only lavatories in public buildings after an outcry over the trend towards gender-neutral facilities.

Increasing numbers of publicly accessible lavatories - like those at The Old Vic theatre in London - are being converted into facilities that can be used by all.

However, public authorities have a duty to provide safe spaces for women in the lavatories in their buildings, and making all facilities gender-neutral may fall foul of building regulations.

Several peers complained this week that gender-neutral lavatories - which one Tory peer, Lord Lucas, said had been introduced by "woke" public bodies - made women feel uncomfortable.


https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/02/28/win-against-wokeness-women-have-right-female-only-lavatories/

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Post by eddie on Sat Feb 29, 2020 10:43 pm

I like the idea of “female only” toilets simply because it’s sometimes a place to gather and natter about shit and reapply your make up, for example, in a pub.

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Post by Ben Reilly on Sat Feb 29, 2020 10:50 pm

Female-only toilets discriminate against men on the basis of sex.

Ha!

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Post by Guest on Sun Mar 01, 2020 1:33 am

Ben Reilly wrote:Female-only toilets discriminate against men on the basis of sex.

Ha!

Is that why there is male only toilets Ben|?

Doh


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Post by 'Wolfie on Sun Mar 01, 2020 1:42 am

Basketball

There should be three choices -- female, male and unisex -- with disabled access to all, and with separate "parents" facilities where the numbers justify it...

Only providing one kind of unisex/"gender free" facilities is discriminatory, pure and simple..

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Post by eddie on Sun Mar 01, 2020 1:51 am

'Wolfie wrote:Basketball

There should be three choices --  female, male and unisex --  with disabled access to all, and with separate "parents" facilities where the numbers justify it...

Only providing one kind of unisex/"gender free" facilities is discriminatory, pure and simple..

Totally agree.

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Post by Eilzel on Sun Mar 01, 2020 2:00 am

If you had all three, who would use the unisex ones?

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Post by Guest on Sun Mar 01, 2020 2:06 am

Eilzel wrote:If you had all three, who would use the unisex ones?

Those comfortable in using them


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Post by Eilzel on Sun Mar 01, 2020 2:10 am

Thorin wrote:
Eilzel wrote:If you had all three, who would use the unisex ones?

Those comfortable in using them


If you had to hazard a guess, what % of people would that be?

Would trans men and trans women be more likely to use unisex or gender specific toilets do you think?

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Post by Guest on Sun Mar 01, 2020 2:12 am

Eilzel wrote:
Thorin wrote:

Those comfortable in using them


If you had to hazard a guess, what % of people would that be?

Would trans men and trans women be more likely to use unisex or gender specific toilets do you think?

How long is a piece of string?


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Post by Eilzel on Sun Mar 01, 2020 2:13 am

Thorin wrote:
Eilzel wrote:
Thorin wrote:

Those comfortable in using them


If you had to hazard a guess, what % of people would that be?

Would trans men and trans women be more likely to use unisex or gender specific toilets do you think?

How long is a piece of string?


All right so you don't want to answer my first question, how about the second?

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Post by Guest on Sun Mar 01, 2020 2:16 am

Eilzel wrote:
Thorin wrote:

How long is a piece of string?


All right so you don't want to answer my first question, how about the second?

Do you think I have unique special abilities to read minds now?

How about you present some polls, instead of ridiculous questions?

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Post by Guest on Sun Mar 01, 2020 2:19 am

https://today.yougov.com/topics/lifestyle/articles-reports/2013/09/13/unisex-toilets-british-women-most-reluctant-share-

Clearly many women feel uncomfortable using them

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Post by Eilzel on Sun Mar 01, 2020 2:20 am

Thorin wrote:
Eilzel wrote:
Thorin wrote:

How long is a piece of string?


All right so you don't want to answer my first question, how about the second?

Do you think I have unique special abilities to read minds now?

How about you present some polls, instead of ridiculous questions?

I don't think they've polled people 'which toilet would you use if three were available?'

And you're getting very upset at basic questions - chill out.

I'm asking because your honest answer might say a lot about the need for three types of toilet in one place.

Because if the vast majority of trans people would use the toilet of the gender they identify with, then the cost in terms of space and money is likely not worth it.

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Post by eddie on Sun Mar 01, 2020 2:23 am

Eilzel wrote:If you had all three, who would use the unisex ones?

I might. I’m not bothered by men seeing me going into a stall to urinate.

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Post by Guest on Sun Mar 01, 2020 2:24 am

Eilzel wrote:
Thorin wrote:

Do you think I have unique special abilities to read minds now?

How about you present some polls, instead of ridiculous questions?

I don't think they've polled people 'which toilet would you use if three were available?'

And you're getting very upset at basic questions - chill out.

I'm asking because your honest answer might say a lot about the need for three types of toilet in one place.

Because if the vast majority of trans people would use the toilet of the gender they identify with, then the cost in terms of space and money is likely not worth it.


Not upset, you pontificating muppet

They were designed for trans people unisex toilets

As to how many use them, I have no idea

What I care about is females maintaining the right to safe spaces, as they have in law

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Post by Cass on Sun Mar 01, 2020 2:27 am

I’ve used men’s before. I don’t personally care but I get people who do.

Agree with Wolfie’s idea but also add in a stall with a changing facility that can be used for adults with disabilities as well.

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Post by Eilzel on Sun Mar 01, 2020 2:32 am

eddie wrote:
Eilzel wrote:If you had all three, who would use the unisex ones?

I might. I’m not bothered by men seeing me going into a stall to urinate.

Just to clarify, I don't have a problem with unisex toilets.

My issue is having men's, women's AND unisex in one place. Because I really don't think many (or any) will use the 3rd option if 1 and 2 are available.

If unisex toilets really are problem, surely just scrap them and stick with 2?

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Post by Eilzel on Sun Mar 01, 2020 2:35 am

Thorin wrote:
Eilzel wrote:
Thorin wrote:

Do you think I have unique special abilities to read minds now?

How about you present some polls, instead of ridiculous questions?

I don't think they've polled people 'which toilet would you use if three were available?'

And you're getting very upset at basic questions - chill out.

I'm asking because your honest answer might say a lot about the need for three types of toilet in one place.

Because if the vast majority of trans people would use the toilet of the gender they identify with, then the cost in terms of space and money is likely not worth it.


Not upset, you pontificating muppet

They were designed for trans people unisex toilets

As to how many use them, I have no idea

What I care about is females maintaining the right to safe spaces, as they have in law

So should we scrap unisex toilets?

And drop the insults, no need for it, it only makes you look stroppy.

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Post by Guest on Sun Mar 01, 2020 2:40 am

Eilzel wrote:
Thorin wrote:


Not upset, you pontificating muppet

They were designed for trans people unisex toilets

As to how many use them, I have no idea

What I care about is females maintaining the right to safe spaces, as they have in law

So should we scrap unisex toilets?

And drop the insults, no need for it, it only makes you look stroppy.

If there is a requirement for them. Then why would we scrap them?

There is no need for your childish snarky digs either

So how about you stop with then eh?

Then you wont be on the receiving end of names

Simple eh?

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Post by Eilzel on Sun Mar 01, 2020 2:50 am

Thorin wrote:
Eilzel wrote:
Thorin wrote:


Not upset, you pontificating muppet

They were designed for trans people unisex toilets

As to how many use them, I have no idea

What I care about is females maintaining the right to safe spaces, as they have in law

So should we scrap unisex toilets?

And drop the insults, no need for it, it only makes you look stroppy.

If there is a requirement for them. Then why would we scrap them?

There is no need for your childish snarky digs either

So how about you stop with then eh?

Then you wont be on the receiving end of names

Simple eh?

You called my questions 'ridiculous' (they weren't), so I told you to chill out. Then you got insulting, I wasn't being snarky, you just don't like being asked questions.

Again, what is the requirement if gender specific toilets are available? If a trans woman has a choice, will she choose the one she identifies with, or the one that makes her stand out as 'different'?

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Post by Guest on Sun Mar 01, 2020 2:56 am

Eilzel wrote:
Thorin wrote:

If there is a requirement for them. Then why would we scrap them?

There is no need for your childish snarky digs either

So how about you stop with then eh?

Then you wont be on the receiving end of names

Simple eh?

You called my questions 'ridiculous' (they weren't), so I told you to chill out. Then you got insulting, I wasn't being snarky, you just don't like being asked questions.

Again, what is the requirement if gender specific toilets are available? If a trans woman has a choice, will she choose the one she identifies with, or the one that makes her stand out as 'different'?

I have every right to think a question, I have no possible chance of answering accurately. Is a ridiculous question

I am happy for people to ask me questions, yet again a childish snarky dig by you

I am not upset either, your previous snarky dig, so cut out the crap, or you will simple be ignored. Your choice

Its up to a trans woman how they choose and you would have to ask them

Again its trans lobby groups that keep lobbying companies to install unisex toilets. So maybe you would be better placed asking them

Also toilets are based on single "sex" spaces not gender. The reality is many females now feel uncomfortable with male bodied people being allowed into single sex spaces.

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Post by eddie on Sun Mar 01, 2020 2:58 am

Thorin wrote:
Eilzel wrote:
Thorin wrote:

Do you think I have unique special abilities to read minds now?

How about you present some polls, instead of ridiculous questions?

I don't think they've polled people 'which toilet would you use if three were available?'

And you're getting very upset at basic questions - chill out.

I'm asking because your honest answer might say a lot about the need for three types of toilet in one place.

Because if the vast majority of trans people would use the toilet of the gender they identify with, then the cost in terms of space and money is likely not worth it.


Not upset, you pontificating muppet

They were designed for trans people unisex toilets

As to how many use them, I have no idea

What I care about is females maintaining the right to safe spaces, as they have in law

Why the need for the first insulting sentence? Really??? Rolling Eyes

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Post by Guest on Sun Mar 01, 2020 3:01 am

eddie wrote:
Thorin wrote:


Not upset, you pontificating muppet

They were designed for trans people unisex toilets

As to how many use them, I have no idea

What I care about is females maintaining the right to safe spaces, as they have in law

Why the need for the first insulting sentence? Really??? Rolling Eyes

Really, then why the snarky dig claiming I am upset and to chill out

Eilzel needs to stop with this snidy comments or he will get called a muppet

Its as simple as that and again I have every right to think his question was ridiculous

He clearly took offence to that and hence started with the dig of claiming I was upset

I am not upset just generally bored with Eilzel being a pratt

So get your facts straight eh eddie?

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Post by eddie on Sun Mar 01, 2020 3:03 am

Sure didge. Get rude.

Whatever works for you.

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Post by Guest on Sun Mar 01, 2020 3:03 am

Women have less than half the level of provision of toilets as men owing to historical sexist legal requirements that favoured men and because, even if the floor-space area for the Ladies and Gents is identical, men will always have more places to pee because you can fit far more urinals in than cubicles.

Therefore, women always queue for the loo, because of unequal provision. Women also take longer to use the toilet for biological reasons.

Women have more reasons to use the toilet than men, including menstruation, menopause, pregnancy, incontinence, and caring for babies, small children and elderly relatives.

Yet no government has accepted that this is a gross infringement of human rights and equalities legislation; more likely women are blamed for ‘taking too long’ or their plight is seen as a joke.

Women’s toilets currently don’t meet the needs of women who have campaigned and waited for change for ages. Now their needs are to be further ignored.

Women comprise around 52% of the population. In contrast, the recent heightened activism on transgender questions has led to immediate change to accommodate a very small section of the population of less than 1%. ‘Ladies’ and ‘Gents’ toilets are being desegregated all over the country as a result of intense lobbying. But this means potentially any men can now use the ‘Ladies’. Indeed there is no ‘Ladies’ anymore.

Relabelling existing ‘Ladies’ and ‘Gents’ as Gender Neutral Toilets (GNTs) impacts upon women the most as they cannot use the urinals, which are often the only ‘toilets’ available in the ‘Gents’. Desegregation reduces the chances of women being able to use a cubicle if men can use them too. (Note we have seen several examples of sexist signage where the Ladies are opened to ‘everyone’ but the ‘Gents’ is kept only for men, as in the photo.)

Whilst the percentage of trans people is very small, current consultation on changes to the 2004 Gender Recognition Act, will potentially enable any man (or woman) to choose which toilet they use without any restriction. Already many local authorities and other toilet providers are jumping the gun and desegregating their toilets, to show they are supportive of ‘diversity’.

The Mayors of the Greater London Authority (GLA), and of Manchester are committed to desegregating public toilets in these cities. This affects both residents and overseas tourists. For example, some Islamic, Hindu, and Orthodox Jewish women are forbidden to share public toilet buildings with male strangers, especially when menstruating.

Thus under the pretext of inclusion, all these changes are removing from women the right to privacy, dignity and safety by allowing any man to enter women-only spaces such as toilets, showers, sports clubs, and women’s rape refuges: thus erasing women and their rights.

Likewise, relabelling the disabled toilet as ‘inclusive toilets’ creates more problems for people with disabilities. They have to wait even longer to use the accessible toilet if other groups now feel they are entitled to use their facilities too. People with disabilities of various sorts comprise 20% of the population but they are lucky to find even one ‘disabled toilet’ (accessible toilet).

https://womansplaceuk.org/gender-neutral-toilets-dont-work-for-women-2/


More to read on the link

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Post by Guest on Sun Mar 01, 2020 3:05 am

eddie wrote:Sure didge. Get rude.

Whatever works for you.

lol he was rude first and yet you think that is acceptable to assert a lie, claiming I was upset

You think claiming people are upset is a reasonable response now in debates do you Eddie

Razz


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Post by eddie on Sun Mar 01, 2020 3:06 am

Thorin wrote:
eddie wrote:Sure didge. Get rude.

Whatever works for you.

lol he was rude first and yet you think that is acceptable to assert a lie, claiming I was upset

You think claiming people are upset is a reasonable response now in debates do you Eddie

Razz


Claiming someone is upset isn’t rude.
Calling someone a name is rude.

But whatever works for you.

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Post by Guest on Sun Mar 01, 2020 3:10 am

eddie wrote:
Thorin wrote:

lol he was rude first and yet you think that is acceptable to assert a lie, claiming I was upset

You think claiming people are upset is a reasonable response now in debates do you Eddie

Razz


Claiming someone is upset isn’t rude.
Calling someone a name is rude.

But whatever works for you.

lol, so you are now deciding whether something is rude or not to an individual?

Seriously?

To me, he was clearly being rude and snarky

It does not matter whether you think it is or not. Its how the individual feels and it had no relevance to the debate


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Post by Eilzel on Sun Mar 01, 2020 3:20 am

Thorin wrote:
eddie wrote:
Thorin wrote:

lol he was rude first and yet you think that is acceptable to assert a lie, claiming I was upset

You think claiming people are upset is a reasonable response now in debates do you Eddie

Razz


Claiming someone is upset isn’t rude.
Calling someone a name is rude.

But whatever works for you.

lol, so you are now deciding whether something is rude or not to an individual?

Seriously?

To me, he was clearly being rude and snarky

It does not matter whether you think it is or not. Its how the individual feels and it had no relevance to the debate


I asked you to chill out because calling my question 'ridiculous' implied you were not happy with the question, which seemed odd, you could've just not answered it.

But whatever, it doesn't matter.

The fact is that no trans person is likely to use a unisex toilet IF men and women's toilets are available. They have a hard enough time as it is, without drawing attention to themselves by choosing a 3rd toilet option.

They exist in some areas, where there are no gender/sex options. I am not convinced of the need for them, though I expect in some cases it just makes it easier having one than several options.

It is also a compromise after many non-trans people complained about trans women using the same toilets as non trans women.

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Post by eddie on Sun Mar 01, 2020 3:21 am

Okay. Like I said, whatever works for you. If someone calling you “upset” insults you, then I guess it’s up to you to work out why that’s an insult.

Each to their own. I’m not that easily upset, I guess.

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Post by Guest on Sun Mar 01, 2020 3:25 am

eddie wrote:Okay. Like I said, whatever works for you. If someone calling you “upset” insults you, then I guess it’s up to you to work out why that’s an insult.

Each to their own. I’m not that easily upset, I guess.

ha ha ha, as have you read back what you have just written Eddie

I already understand why using such a view on people is insulting. As it centres around undermining a person's emotional capabilities.

Again it had zero relevance to the debate, hence it was a snarky dig

You can stop holding Eilzels hands Eddie, he is a big boy and can stand up for himself

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Post by Eilzel on Sun Mar 01, 2020 3:30 am

Thorin wrote:
eddie wrote:Okay. Like I said, whatever works for you. If someone calling you “upset” insults you, then I guess it’s up to you to work out why that’s an insult.

Each to their own. I’m not that easily upset, I guess.

ha ha ha, as have you read back what you have just written Eddie

I already understand why using such a view on people is insulting. As it centres around undermining a person's emotional capabilities.

Again it had zero relevance to the debate, hence it was a snarky dig

You can stop holding Eilzels hands Eddie, he is a big boy and can stand up for himself

So was 'stop asking ridiculous questions' also a snarky dig?

But whatever, it doesn't matter.

The fact is that no trans person is likely to use a unisex toilet IF men and women's toilets are available. They have a hard enough time as it is, without drawing attention to themselves by choosing a 3rd toilet option.

They exist in some areas, where there are no gender/sex options. I am not convinced of the need for them, though I expect in some cases it just makes it easier having one than several options.

It is also a compromise after many non-trans people complained about trans women using the same toilets as non trans women.

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Post by Guest on Sun Mar 01, 2020 3:42 am

Eilzel wrote:
Thorin wrote:

ha ha ha, as have you read back what you have just written Eddie

I already understand why using such a view on people is insulting. As it centres around undermining a person's emotional capabilities.

Again it had zero relevance to the debate, hence it was a snarky dig

You can stop holding Eilzels hands Eddie, he is a big boy and can stand up for himself

So was 'stop asking ridiculous questions' also a snarky dig?

But whatever, it doesn't matter.

The fact is that no trans person is likely to use a unisex toilet IF men and women's toilets are available. They have a hard enough time as it is, without drawing attention to themselves by choosing a 3rd toilet option.

They exist in some areas, where there are no gender/sex options. I am not convinced of the need for them, though I expect in some cases it just makes it easier having one than several options.

It is also a compromise after many non-trans people complained about trans women using the same toilets as non trans women.

To me it was a ridiculous question, based on the reality I truly have no idea how many trans people feel. In regards to a preference. Hence to ask me, when I am not trans myself. I could not even hazard a guess and like I say it would require polls on this

So I was right, you did take offence at me saying it was a ridiculous question. Which is why you came out with the snarky comment about being upset

Right now that bollocks has been dealt with back to your points

Where is the evidence trans people will always use the toilet they assign their gender to. If all 3 toilets are available? You are second guessing here, when again its trans lobby groups lobbying for them to be installed. Clearly if people are calling for them, then clearly some trans people must use them. In fact I would say those who advocate for them, would make a point of using them

I see a need for them, as again there should be single sex spaces for females

As seen by many females being uncomfortable with male bodied people using single sex female toilets and they have every right to complain

You cannot force people to believe that someone can magically change sex and females as a group suffer far more violence than trans people

I am all for trans people to have safe spaces also.

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Post by Eilzel on Sun Mar 01, 2020 3:49 am

Thorin wrote:
Eilzel wrote:
Thorin wrote:

ha ha ha, as have you read back what you have just written Eddie

I already understand why using such a view on people is insulting. As it centres around undermining a person's emotional capabilities.

Again it had zero relevance to the debate, hence it was a snarky dig

You can stop holding Eilzels hands Eddie, he is a big boy and can stand up for himself

So was 'stop asking ridiculous questions' also a snarky dig?

But whatever, it doesn't matter.

The fact is that no trans person is likely to use a unisex toilet IF men and women's toilets are available. They have a hard enough time as it is, without drawing attention to themselves by choosing a 3rd toilet option.

They exist in some areas, where there are no gender/sex options. I am not convinced of the need for them, though I expect in some cases it just makes it easier having one than several options.

It is also a compromise after many non-trans people complained about trans women using the same toilets as non trans women.

To me it was a ridiculous question, based on the reality I truly have no idea how many trans people feel. In regards to a preference. Hence to ask me, when I am not trans myself. I could not even hazard a guess and like I say it would require polls on this

So I was right, you did take offence at me saying it was a ridiculous question. Which is why you came out with the snarky comment about being upset

Right now that bollocks has been dealt with back to your points

Where is the evidence trans people will always use the toilet they assign their gender to. If all 3 toilets are available? You are second guessing here, when again its trans lobby groups lobbying for them to be installed. Clearly if people are calling for them, then clearly some trans people must use them. In fact I would say those who advocate for them, would make a point of using them

I see a need for them, as again there should be single sex spaces for females

As seen by many females being uncomfortable with male bodied people using single sex female toilets and they have every right to complain

You cannot force people to believe that someone can magically change sex and females as a group suffer far more violence than trans people

I am all for trans people to have safe spaces also.

But they are calling for them as an alternative, thus scrapping men and women's toilets. They aren't asking for three sets of toilets in one area (if they are I'm happy to see the links where they say so).

And we are both human, didge, as are trans people.

If I can put myself into a trans person's shoes and imagine being uncomfortable using a third toilet when others are available, it isn't such a stretch to think a lot of actual trans people would feel the same.

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Post by Guest on Sun Mar 01, 2020 4:03 am

Eilzel wrote:
Thorin wrote:

To me it was a ridiculous question, based on the reality I truly have no idea how many trans people feel. In regards to a preference. Hence to ask me, when I am not trans myself. I could not even hazard a guess and like I say it would require polls on this

So I was right, you did take offence at me saying it was a ridiculous question. Which is why you came out with the snarky comment about being upset

Right now that bollocks has been dealt with back to your points

Where is the evidence trans people will always use the toilet they assign their gender to. If all 3 toilets are available? You are second guessing here, when again its trans lobby groups lobbying for them to be installed. Clearly if people are calling for them, then clearly some trans people must use them. In fact I would say those who advocate for them, would make a point of using them

I see a need for them, as again there should be single sex spaces for females

As seen by many females being uncomfortable with male bodied people using single sex female toilets and they have every right to complain

You cannot force people to believe that someone can magically change sex and females as a group suffer far more violence than trans people

I am all for trans people to have safe spaces also.

But they are calling for them as an alternative, thus scrapping men and women's toilets. They aren't asking for three sets of toilets in one area (if they are I'm happy to see the links where they say so).

And we are both human, didge, as are trans people.

If I can put myself into a trans person's shoes and imagine being uncomfortable using a third toilet when others are available, it isn't such a stretch to think a lot of actual trans people would feel the same.

Oh my goodness. Where did I claim trans people were not human? I cannot not for one second, understand how it feels to have a dysphoria in regards to my own body. Saying I would not have have the first idea, even knowing some trans people. On their preferences. In no way dehumanises them. It is actually stating quite correctly, that I truly have no idea what many trans or non-trans people have in regards to preferences. As people individually hold their own views. We only know the preferences of people we know. Which is minuscule in regards to how many people there is in the world

But you cannot place yourself in those shoes Eilzel. You can only imagine, attempting to use empathic intelligence. That still means you are unlikely to understand this, being as you will never experience this. To claim to say you can place yourselves in their shoes, when you have never been in their shoes. Shows a real lack of understanding for people in said positions. You are more likely to be going off what some trans people have said to you. Not any real view to understand what it is like to be trans

What is the most annoying thing here, is how females are constantly ignored over how they feel all about this. That if they dare to speak up, that they are cast as bigoted for feeling uncomfortable around male bodied people in single;e sex spaces

So you offer no evidence but a view you hold and perceive in regards to trans people. Making a claim none would use a unisex, if single sex spaces were also an option. I know for a fact that they do, because I speak to a number of trans people on twitter

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Post by Eilzel on Sun Mar 01, 2020 4:11 am

Thorin wrote:
Eilzel wrote:
Thorin wrote:

To me it was a ridiculous question, based on the reality I truly have no idea how many trans people feel. In regards to a preference. Hence to ask me, when I am not trans myself. I could not even hazard a guess and like I say it would require polls on this

So I was right, you did take offence at me saying it was a ridiculous question. Which is why you came out with the snarky comment about being upset

Right now that bollocks has been dealt with back to your points

Where is the evidence trans people will always use the toilet they assign their gender to. If all 3 toilets are available? You are second guessing here, when again its trans lobby groups lobbying for them to be installed. Clearly if people are calling for them, then clearly some trans people must use them. In fact I would say those who advocate for them, would make a point of using them

I see a need for them, as again there should be single sex spaces for females

As seen by many females being uncomfortable with male bodied people using single sex female toilets and they have every right to complain

You cannot force people to believe that someone can magically change sex and females as a group suffer far more violence than trans people

I am all for trans people to have safe spaces also.

But they are calling for them as an alternative, thus scrapping men and women's toilets. They aren't asking for three sets of toilets in one area (if they are I'm happy to see the links where they say so).

And we are both human, didge, as are trans people.

If I can put myself into a trans person's shoes and imagine being uncomfortable using a third toilet when others are available, it isn't such a stretch to think a lot of actual trans people would feel the same.

Oh my goodness. Where did I claim trans people were not human? I cannot not for one second, understand how it feels to have a dysphoria in regards to my own body. Saying I would not have have the first idea, even knowing some trans people. On their preferences. In no way dehumanises them. It is actually stating quite correctly, that I truly have no idea what many trans or non-trans people have in regards to preferences. As people individually hold their own views. We only know the preferences of people we know. Which is minuscule in regards to how many people there is in the world

But you cannot place yourself in those shoes Eilzel. You can only imagine, attempting to use empathic intelligence. That still means you are unlikely to understand this, being as you will never experience this. To claim to say you can place yourselves in their shoes, when you have never been in their shoes. Shows a real lack of understanding for people in said positions. You are more likely to be going off what some trans people have said to you. Not any real view to understand what it is like to be trans

What is the most annoying thing here, is how females are constantly ignored over how they feel all about this. That if they dare to speak up, that they are cast as bigoted for feeling uncomfortable around male bodied people in single;e sex spaces

So you offer no evidence but a view you hold and perceive in regards to trans people. Making a claim none would use a unisex, if single sex spaces were also an option. I know for a fact that they do, because I speak to a number of trans people on twitter

Show me one of their tweets then, I'm open to seeing otherwise.

I wasn't saying you didn't see trans people as human, didge, I was pointing out that people are people regardless of identities.

And actually my stance is better for biological women, since I'd scrap unisex toilets so they wouldn't need to use unisex ones at all.

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Post by Guest on Sun Mar 01, 2020 4:21 am

Eilzel wrote:
Thorin wrote:

Oh my goodness. Where did I claim trans people were not human? I cannot not for one second, understand how it feels to have a dysphoria in regards to my own body. Saying I would not have have the first idea, even knowing some trans people. On their preferences. In no way dehumanises them. It is actually stating quite correctly, that I truly have no idea what many trans or non-trans people have in regards to preferences. As people individually hold their own views. We only know the preferences of people we know. Which is minuscule in regards to how many people there is in the world

But you cannot place yourself in those shoes Eilzel. You can only imagine, attempting to use empathic intelligence. That still means you are unlikely to understand this, being as you will never experience this. To claim to say you can place yourselves in their shoes, when you have never been in their shoes. Shows a real lack of understanding for people in said positions. You are more likely to be going off what some trans people have said to you. Not any real view to understand what it is like to be trans

What is the most annoying thing here, is how females are constantly ignored over how they feel all about this. That if they dare to speak up, that they are cast as bigoted for feeling uncomfortable around male bodied people in single;e sex spaces

So you offer no evidence but a view you hold and perceive in regards to trans people. Making a claim none would use a unisex, if single sex spaces were also an option. I know for a fact that they do, because I speak to a number of trans people on twitter

Show me one of their tweets then, I'm open to seeing otherwise.

I wasn't saying you didn't see trans people as human, didge, I was pointing out that people are people regardless of identities.

And actually my stance is better for biological women, since I'd scrap unisex toilets so they wouldn't need to use unisex ones at all.

Yes you were insinuating a view of me dehumanising trans people. Yet again a snarky dig. Why point out people are people regardless, when I already know that? As what statement did I make for you to think otherwise?

Not going to trawl back through thousands of tweets. I would be here for days lol

So basically you are not taking my word on this, which is fine. You do not have to

How is your system better for women that feel uncomfortable with male bodied people using female toilets?

No unisex means that trans women will use which toilet?

Female?

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Post by Eilzel on Sun Mar 01, 2020 4:30 am

Thorin wrote:
Eilzel wrote:
Thorin wrote:

Oh my goodness. Where did I claim trans people were not human? I cannot not for one second, understand how it feels to have a dysphoria in regards to my own body. Saying I would not have have the first idea, even knowing some trans people. On their preferences. In no way dehumanises them. It is actually stating quite correctly, that I truly have no idea what many trans or non-trans people have in regards to preferences. As people individually hold their own views. We only know the preferences of people we know. Which is minuscule in regards to how many people there is in the world

But you cannot place yourself in those shoes Eilzel. You can only imagine, attempting to use empathic intelligence. That still means you are unlikely to understand this, being as you will never experience this. To claim to say you can place yourselves in their shoes, when you have never been in their shoes. Shows a real lack of understanding for people in said positions. You are more likely to be going off what some trans people have said to you. Not any real view to understand what it is like to be trans

What is the most annoying thing here, is how females are constantly ignored over how they feel all about this. That if they dare to speak up, that they are cast as bigoted for feeling uncomfortable around male bodied people in single;e sex spaces

So you offer no evidence but a view you hold and perceive in regards to trans people. Making a claim none would use a unisex, if single sex spaces were also an option. I know for a fact that they do, because I speak to a number of trans people on twitter

Show me one of their tweets then, I'm open to seeing otherwise.

I wasn't saying you didn't see trans people as human, didge, I was pointing out that people are people regardless of identities.

And actually my stance is better for biological women, since I'd scrap unisex toilets so they wouldn't need to use unisex ones at all.

Yes you were insinuating a view of me dehumanising trans people. Yet again a snarky dig. Why point out people are people regardless, when I already know that? As what statement did I make for you to think otherwise?

Not going to trawl back through thousands of tweets. I would be here for days lol

So basically you are not taking my word on this, which is fine. You do not have to

How is your system better for women that feel uncomfortable with male bodied people using female toilets?

No unisex means that trans women will use which toilet?

Female?

Your way doesn't solve that problem either, since those 'male bodied' people, if they identify as trans, will still use the female toilets.

And I honestly wasn't saying you were dehumanising trans people, I can only repeat that, I can't convince you. I said it to remove the obstacle of 'I don't know what trans people think'. I think with things like this just using empathy can go a long way. So again, I was not suggesting you dehumanised trans people, but I will make no more effort to convince you.

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Post by Guest on Sun Mar 01, 2020 4:40 am

Eilzel wrote:
Thorin wrote:

Yes you were insinuating a view of me dehumanising trans people. Yet again a snarky dig. Why point out people are people regardless, when I already know that? As what statement did I make for you to think otherwise?

Not going to trawl back through thousands of tweets. I would be here for days lol

So basically you are not taking my word on this, which is fine. You do not have to

How is your system better for women that feel uncomfortable with male bodied people using female toilets?

No unisex means that trans women will use which toilet?

Female?

Your way doesn't solve that problem either, since those 'male bodied' people, if they identify as trans, will still use the female toilets.

And I honestly wasn't saying you were dehumanising trans people, I can only repeat that, I can't convince you. I said it to remove the obstacle of 'I don't know what trans people think'. I think with things like this just using empathy can go a long way. So again, I was not suggesting you dehumanised trans people, but I will make no more effort to convince you.

Oh for goodness sake, the lies emulating from your mouth now is astronomical

We both do not know what its like to be trans, as imagination is not the same as experience

Can you understand how imagination and experience are not equals?

To say you are trying to remove an obstacle, by saying trans people are human. Is clearly stating that you think I do not see them as human. The same principle applies to non trans people. I can only imagine their experiences. I cannot actually experience them. Thus having no way of knowing what it is truly like.

Holy crap on a cracker

I get you never intentionally claimed I was dehumanising trans people, but to point out that trans people are human. Is to view me as thus not thinking they are human.

Do you not see that Eilzel?

You have not actually listened to my way, as I have not stated this yet at all

My way would be to have multiple single roomed/bathroom/changing facilities for the public. They have this in Manchester University. My nephew goes there. This way there is no issue. The facility is open to everyone, and provides privacy, security to everyone

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Post by Eilzel on Sun Mar 01, 2020 4:45 am

Thorin wrote:
Eilzel wrote:
Thorin wrote:

Yes you were insinuating a view of me dehumanising trans people. Yet again a snarky dig. Why point out people are people regardless, when I already know that? As what statement did I make for you to think otherwise?

Not going to trawl back through thousands of tweets. I would be here for days lol

So basically you are not taking my word on this, which is fine. You do not have to

How is your system better for women that feel uncomfortable with male bodied people using female toilets?

No unisex means that trans women will use which toilet?

Female?

Your way doesn't solve that problem either, since those 'male bodied' people, if they identify as trans, will still use the female toilets.

And I honestly wasn't saying you were dehumanising trans people, I can only repeat that, I can't convince you. I said it to remove the obstacle of 'I don't know what trans people think'. I think with things like this just using empathy can go a long way. So again, I was not suggesting you dehumanised trans people, but I will make no more effort to convince you.

Oh for goodness sake, the lies emulating from your mouth now is astronomical

We both do not know what its like to be trans, as imagination is not the same as experience

Can you understand how imagination and experience are not equals?

To say you are trying to remove an obstacle, by saying trans people are human. Is clearly stating that you think I do not see them as human. The same principle applies to non trans people. I can only imagine their experiences. I cannot actually experience them. Thus having no way of knowing what it is truly like.

Holy crap on a cracker

I get you never intentionally claimed I was dehumanising trans people, but to point out that trans people are human. Is to view me as thus not thinking they are human.

Do you not see that Eilzel?

You have not actually listened to my way, as I have not stated this yet at all

My way would be to have multiple single roomed/bathroom/changing facilities for the public. They have this in Manchester University. My nephew goes there. This way there is no issue. The facility is open to everyone, and provides privacy, security to everyone

That might work at Manchester University, but it is not convenient, space wise, to have multiple single room facilities in every train station, bus station, pub, mall etc...
It's a nice idea, but not practical in all circumstances.

And I was neither saying nor implying you dehumanised trans people didge, full stop.

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Post by Guest on Sun Mar 01, 2020 4:49 am

Eilzel wrote:
Thorin wrote:

Oh for goodness sake, the lies emulating from your mouth now is astronomical

We both do not know what its like to be trans, as imagination is not the same as experience

Can you understand how imagination and experience are not equals?

To say you are trying to remove an obstacle, by saying trans people are human. Is clearly stating that you think I do not see them as human. The same principle applies to non trans people. I can only imagine their experiences. I cannot actually experience them. Thus having no way of knowing what it is truly like.

Holy crap on a cracker

I get you never intentionally claimed I was dehumanising trans people, but to point out that trans people are human. Is to view me as thus not thinking they are human.

Do you not see that Eilzel?

You have not actually listened to my way, as I have not stated this yet at all

My way would be to have multiple single roomed/bathroom/changing facilities for the public. They have this in Manchester University. My nephew goes there. This way there is no issue. The facility is open to everyone, and provides privacy, security to everyone

That might work at Manchester University, but it is not convenient, space wise, to have multiple single room facilities in every train station, bus station, pub, mall etc...
It's a nice idea, but not practical in all circumstances.

And I was neither saying nor implying you dehumanised trans people didge, full stop.

lol its still the best idea to solve the issue is it not?
You only object to practicality around space and cost, not that it is still the best solution to this problem
Cost should never be an issue, if the Government takes the initiative on this and funds for public places to do this
If public places have the space, then there is no reason not to change to single spaced bathroom facilities is there?

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Post by Eilzel on Sun Mar 01, 2020 4:59 am

Thorin wrote:
Eilzel wrote:
Thorin wrote:

Oh for goodness sake, the lies emulating from your mouth now is astronomical

We both do not know what its like to be trans, as imagination is not the same as experience

Can you understand how imagination and experience are not equals?

To say you are trying to remove an obstacle, by saying trans people are human. Is clearly stating that you think I do not see them as human. The same principle applies to non trans people. I can only imagine their experiences. I cannot actually experience them. Thus having no way of knowing what it is truly like.

Holy crap on a cracker

I get you never intentionally claimed I was dehumanising trans people, but to point out that trans people are human. Is to view me as thus not thinking they are human.

Do you not see that Eilzel?

You have not actually listened to my way, as I have not stated this yet at all

My way would be to have multiple single roomed/bathroom/changing facilities for the public. They have this in Manchester University. My nephew goes there. This way there is no issue. The facility is open to everyone, and provides privacy, security to everyone

That might work at Manchester University, but it is not convenient, space wise, to have multiple single room facilities in every train station, bus station, pub, mall etc...
It's a nice idea, but not practical in all circumstances.

And I was neither saying nor implying you dehumanised trans people didge, full stop.

lol its still the best idea to solve the issue is it not?
You only object to practicality around space and cost, not that it is still the best solution to this problem
Cost should never be an issue, if the Government takes the initiative on this and funds for public places to do this
If public places have the space, then there is no reason not to change to single spaced bathroom facilities is there?

It is unnecessary though. We can have space for many urinals and a fair few cubicles as is, they amount of space taken by individual single use bathrooms would likely at least halve the number of available facilities. It might work in some places, but have you seen the queues for women's bathrooms in some places already? It can get silly. And for what? Because society is so broken we need to separate people?

The real long term solution is to make people comfortable around trans people.

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Post by Guest on Sun Mar 01, 2020 5:09 am

Eilzel wrote:
Thorin wrote:

lol its still the best idea to solve the issue is it not?
You only object to practicality around space and cost, not that it is still the best solution to this problem
Cost should never be an issue, if the Government takes the initiative on this and funds for public places to do this
If public places have the space, then there is no reason not to change to single spaced bathroom facilities is there?

It is unnecessary though. We can have space for many urinals and a fair few cubicles as is, they amount of space taken by individual single use bathrooms would likely at least halve the number of available facilities. It might work in some places, but have you seen the queues for women's bathrooms in some places already? It can get silly. And for what? Because society is so broken we need to separate people?

The real long term solution is to make people comfortable around trans people.

So you are now thinking like a man. Your care is about available urinals? The loss of them?

The reason there would be ques, is because of the fact now everyone will want to use them. Such is life, but ques are not a reason to refrain from building single spaced bathrooms. When already toilets have ques. The reason here is to provide privacy, security etc for people using bathrooms

Your last statement I have to say is idiotic. As it has nothing to do with feeling comfortable around trans people. The issue is not trans people, but male bodied people. Who will in fact trigger trauma in a vast number of females, who were victims of sexual abuse.

I mean if someone said to you, homosexuals have to get used to homosexuality being criminalised in countries that do. What would your view be to that? To conform to said barbaric laws or rightly object?

You cannot force people to be comfortable around something they feel uncomfortable being around, as victims of sexual abuse. Its the very idea, that males can use female facilities that concerns people Eilzel today.

So it has nothing to do with society being broken. Females fought for years and are still doing so for rights. Single sex spaces were hard won rights for them. If a vast number of men were not violent, then yes, there would be no need to separate. The reality is, that a vast number of men are violent though. Hence the provision for single sex spaces. Its wrong to force separation, but you cannot deny people separate spaces, that are based on safeguarding

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Post by Eilzel on Sun Mar 01, 2020 5:13 am

Thorin wrote:
Eilzel wrote:
Thorin wrote:

lol its still the best idea to solve the issue is it not?
You only object to practicality around space and cost, not that it is still the best solution to this problem
Cost should never be an issue, if the Government takes the initiative on this and funds for public places to do this
If public places have the space, then there is no reason not to change to single spaced bathroom facilities is there?

It is unnecessary though. We can have space for many urinals and a fair few cubicles as is, they amount of space taken by individual single use bathrooms would likely at least halve the number of available facilities. It might work in some places, but have you seen the queues for women's bathrooms in some places already? It can get silly. And for what? Because society is so broken we need to separate people?

The real long term solution is to make people comfortable around trans people.

So you are now thinking like a man. Your care is about available urinals? The loss of them?

The reason there would be ques, is because of the fact now everyone will want to use them. Such is life, but ques are not a reason to refrain from building single spaced bathrooms. When already toilets have ques. The reason here is to provide privacy, security etc for people using bathrooms

Your last statement I have to say is idiotic. As it has nothing to do with feeling comfortable around trans people. The issue is not trans people, but male bodied people. Who will in fact trigger trauma in a vast number of females, who were victims of sexual abuse.

I mean if someone said to you, homosexuals have to get used to homosexuality being criminalised in countries that do. What would your view be to that? To conform to said barbaric laws or rightly object?  

You cannot force people to be comfortable around something they feel uncomfortable being around, as victims of sexual abuse. Its the very idea, that males can use female facilities that concerns people Eilzel today.

So it has nothing to do with society being broken. Females fought for years and are still doing so for rights. Single sex spaces were hard won rights for them. If a vast number of men were not violent, then yes, there would be no need to separate. The reality is, that a vast number of men are violent though. Hence the provision for single sex spaces. Its wrong to force separation, but you cannot deny people separate spaces, that are based on safeguarding

The vast number of a men are violent?

I presume you mean 'a large number' and not 'the vast majority' by that, because the latter is certainly not true.

What are the actual number of women who are abused by men entering female toilets?

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Post by Guest on Sun Mar 01, 2020 5:23 am

Eilzel wrote:
Thorin wrote:

So you are now thinking like a man. Your care is about available urinals? The loss of them?

The reason there would be ques, is because of the fact now everyone will want to use them. Such is life, but ques are not a reason to refrain from building single spaced bathrooms. When already toilets have ques. The reason here is to provide privacy, security etc for people using bathrooms

Your last statement I have to say is idiotic. As it has nothing to do with feeling comfortable around trans people. The issue is not trans people, but male bodied people. Who will in fact trigger trauma in a vast number of females, who were victims of sexual abuse.

I mean if someone said to you, homosexuals have to get used to homosexuality being criminalised in countries that do. What would your view be to that? To conform to said barbaric laws or rightly object?  

You cannot force people to be comfortable around something they feel uncomfortable being around, as victims of sexual abuse. Its the very idea, that males can use female facilities that concerns people Eilzel today.

So it has nothing to do with society being broken. Females fought for years and are still doing so for rights. Single sex spaces were hard won rights for them. If a vast number of men were not violent, then yes, there would be no need to separate. The reality is, that a vast number of men are violent though. Hence the provision for single sex spaces. Its wrong to force separation, but you cannot deny people separate spaces, that are based on safeguarding

The vast number of a men are violent?

I presume you mean 'a large number' and not 'the vast majority' by that, because the latter is certainly not true.

What are the actual number of women who are abused by men entering female toilets?

Holly crap on a cracker

By vast number, the number is very large that goes into the millions. That does not mean its the majority

Did you not grasp what I said?

How trauma can be triggered in sex abuse victims?

They do not have to be abused in the toilet to feel uncomfortable around a male within the toilet. You do understand that? The trigger is male bodies?

As to numbers, we have stats on unisex facilities

https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/women/sexual-assault-unisex-changing-rooms-sunday-times-women-risk-a8519086.html

You certainly lack emphatic intelligence to how females feel Eilzel
I suggest you have a read

https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/women/unisex-toilets-period-shaming-sexual-harassment-schools-girls-womens-voices-wales-a8784226.html

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Post by Eilzel on Sun Mar 01, 2020 5:33 am

Thorin wrote:
Eilzel wrote:
Thorin wrote:

So you are now thinking like a man. Your care is about available urinals? The loss of them?

The reason there would be ques, is because of the fact now everyone will want to use them. Such is life, but ques are not a reason to refrain from building single spaced bathrooms. When already toilets have ques. The reason here is to provide privacy, security etc for people using bathrooms

Your last statement I have to say is idiotic. As it has nothing to do with feeling comfortable around trans people. The issue is not trans people, but male bodied people. Who will in fact trigger trauma in a vast number of females, who were victims of sexual abuse.

I mean if someone said to you, homosexuals have to get used to homosexuality being criminalised in countries that do. What would your view be to that? To conform to said barbaric laws or rightly object?  

You cannot force people to be comfortable around something they feel uncomfortable being around, as victims of sexual abuse. Its the very idea, that males can use female facilities that concerns people Eilzel today.

So it has nothing to do with society being broken. Females fought for years and are still doing so for rights. Single sex spaces were hard won rights for them. If a vast number of men were not violent, then yes, there would be no need to separate. The reality is, that a vast number of men are violent though. Hence the provision for single sex spaces. Its wrong to force separation, but you cannot deny people separate spaces, that are based on safeguarding

The vast number of a men are violent?

I presume you mean 'a large number' and not 'the vast majority' by that, because the latter is certainly not true.

What are the actual number of women who are abused by men entering female toilets?

Holly crap on a cracker

By vast number, the number is very large that goes into the millions. That does not mean its the majority

Did you not grasp what I said?

How trauma can be triggered in sex abuse victims?

They do not have to be abused in the toilet to feel uncomfortable around a male within the toilet. You do understand that? The trigger is male bodies?

As to numbers, we have stats on unisex facilities

https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/women/sexual-assault-unisex-changing-rooms-sunday-times-women-risk-a8519086.html

You certainly lack emphatic intelligence to how females feel Eilzel
I suggest you have a read

https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/women/unisex-toilets-period-shaming-sexual-harassment-schools-girls-womens-voices-wales-a8784226.html

On changing rooms I absolutely think they should be single-sex. I think the same on toilets too though.

Again, I personally don't see the need for unisex toilets.

The problem is, having 3 options is not going to stop 'male bodied' people using women's toilets IF they claim to be trans women, in which case what is the point?

And I categorically disagree with the view that millions of British men are violent.

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Post by Guest on Sun Mar 01, 2020 5:41 am

I truly despair

Can anyone see where I said "British" men?

The number of violent males globally, would be in the millions.

You so badly and constantly assume the wrong thing all the time over what I say

I agree the problem is 3 facilities, hence why I suggested a universal system that caters for everyone. A single spaced bathroom/changing facility.

I have finally lost patience with you now, over stating something yet again I have not even said

British males.

I said males. You know there is males in other countries. Not just the UK?

So many times you have wrongly assumed views you think I hold within this thread
I am bored now with your antics

Feel free to talk to yourself now

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Post by Eilzel on Sun Mar 01, 2020 5:46 am

Thorin wrote:I truly despair

Can anyone see where I said "British" men?

The number of violent males globally, would be in the millions.

You so badly and constantly assume the wrong thing all the time over what I say

I agree the problem is 3 facilities, hence why I suggested a universal system that caters for everyone. A single spaced bathroom/changing facility.

I have finally lost patience with you now, over stating something yet again I have not even said

British males.

I said males. You know there is males in other countries. Not just the UK?

So many times you have wrongly assumed views you think I hold within this thread
I am bored now with your antics

Feel free to talk to yourself now

Stating 'millions of men are violent' makes it seem like this is an epidemic. In a given country a tiny minority of men are violent, and even smaller minority of those violent men would enter a woman's bathroom, so overhauling the entire 'public toilet' system is a ridiculous overreaction to the infinitesimal chance a woman might end up in a toilet with a violent man.

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Post by Guest on Sun Mar 01, 2020 6:12 am

It is endemic globally the violence of males. It does not matter to female victims of sexual abuse. In regards to your perception of how many violent males will use said facilities. Its the very thought and fact that they will. The link on unisex changing facilities proves that

Its not based on the chances of a violent male being in the toilet at the same time. Single sex facilities are based on a total ban of the opposite sex and for good reason. As we do not know the good from the bad men, just by looking at them. We know a number are dangerous though. |Hence the view is to provide a safeguard based on sex.

You still cannot grasp what triggers the trauma in females and why many will now avoid using toilets in public. 

Hence overhauling the toilet system is not an over reaction, when two vulnerable groups are at odds with each other over this. The two groups are trans women and bio women. 

Thus create safe universal systems for people. That eradicate the issue they both are at odds with each other on. Your view to enforce people to except something they are uncomfortable with. Fails dramatically in regards to again attempting to place yourself in the shoes of females

Every reply by you is centred on either gender ideology or assumptions in regard to me. In every single instance wrong by you

How is it an over reaction, when two vulnerable groups cannot agree and my system would allow for agreement?

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