Why Humans Increasingly Are Unaware of Their Ignorance
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Why Humans Increasingly Are Unaware of Their Ignorance
“Has there ever been a time in the world’s history when people were more sure of their opinions?” asks Jim Ferrell of the Arbinger Insitute.
Ferrell observes, “We become set in our opinions precisely because we have lost sight of the fact that they are merely opinions…our culture is suffering from what one might call ‘opinion creep’—the elevation of unsupported thoughts to the status of opinions and opinions to convictions.”
We don’t know how to have civil disagreements anymore. We fail to recognize that having a thought doesn’t make our thinking the truth. Ferrell writes, “We tend to have convictions about many things and to have opinions about almost everything else. We blind ourselves to the enormity of our ignorance.”
Cognitive scientists Steven Sloman and Phillip Fernbach in their book The Knowledge Illusion, put it this way: “In general we don’t appreciate how little we know; the tiniest bit of knowledge makes us feel like experts. Once we feel like an expert we start talking like an expert.”
The Dunning-Kruger Effect
Human ignorance is inevitable. It is ignorance of our ignorance that concerns psychology professor David Dunning. We can call ignorance of our ignorance, invincible ignorance when normal feedback from an individual’s working environment does little to disabuse them of their lack of skills.
Perversely, the worse we are at something, the more likely we will overate our skills. In Dunning’s words, “The knowledge and intelligence that are required to be good at a task are often the same qualities needed to recognize that one is not good at that task—and if one lacks such knowledge and intelligence, one remains ignorant that one is not good at that task.”
In short, “incompetence robs [us] of the ability to realize it.” We “are left with the erroneous impression [we] are doing just fine.”
https://www.intellectualtakeout.org/article/why-humans-increasingly-are-unaware-their-ignorance-and-why-its-big-problem?fbclid=IwAR3MeaVInrQ2G3N95-luHScxAAg-yYJHP9TXmTSxrPRjvorJoXnvte51tvU
Plenty more at this link.
Ferrell observes, “We become set in our opinions precisely because we have lost sight of the fact that they are merely opinions…our culture is suffering from what one might call ‘opinion creep’—the elevation of unsupported thoughts to the status of opinions and opinions to convictions.”
We don’t know how to have civil disagreements anymore. We fail to recognize that having a thought doesn’t make our thinking the truth. Ferrell writes, “We tend to have convictions about many things and to have opinions about almost everything else. We blind ourselves to the enormity of our ignorance.”
Cognitive scientists Steven Sloman and Phillip Fernbach in their book The Knowledge Illusion, put it this way: “In general we don’t appreciate how little we know; the tiniest bit of knowledge makes us feel like experts. Once we feel like an expert we start talking like an expert.”
The Dunning-Kruger Effect
Human ignorance is inevitable. It is ignorance of our ignorance that concerns psychology professor David Dunning. We can call ignorance of our ignorance, invincible ignorance when normal feedback from an individual’s working environment does little to disabuse them of their lack of skills.
Perversely, the worse we are at something, the more likely we will overate our skills. In Dunning’s words, “The knowledge and intelligence that are required to be good at a task are often the same qualities needed to recognize that one is not good at that task—and if one lacks such knowledge and intelligence, one remains ignorant that one is not good at that task.”
In short, “incompetence robs [us] of the ability to realize it.” We “are left with the erroneous impression [we] are doing just fine.”
https://www.intellectualtakeout.org/article/why-humans-increasingly-are-unaware-their-ignorance-and-why-its-big-problem?fbclid=IwAR3MeaVInrQ2G3N95-luHScxAAg-yYJHP9TXmTSxrPRjvorJoXnvte51tvU
Plenty more at this link.
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Re: Why Humans Increasingly Are Unaware of Their Ignorance
Maddog wrote:“Has there ever been a time in the world’s history when people were more sure of their opinions?” asks Jim Ferrell of the Arbinger Insitute.
Ferrell observes, “We become set in our opinions precisely because we have lost sight of the fact that they are merely opinions…our culture is suffering from what one might call ‘opinion creep’—the elevation of unsupported thoughts to the status of opinions and opinions to convictions.”
We don’t know how to have civil disagreements anymore. We fail to recognize that having a thought doesn’t make our thinking the truth. Ferrell writes, “We tend to have convictions about many things and to have opinions about almost everything else. We blind ourselves to the enormity of our ignorance.”
Cognitive scientists Steven Sloman and Phillip Fernbach in their book The Knowledge Illusion, put it this way: “In general we don’t appreciate how little we know; the tiniest bit of knowledge makes us feel like experts. Once we feel like an expert we start talking like an expert.”
The Dunning-Kruger Effect
Human ignorance is inevitable. It is ignorance of our ignorance that concerns psychology professor David Dunning. We can call ignorance of our ignorance, invincible ignorance when normal feedback from an individual’s working environment does little to disabuse them of their lack of skills.
Perversely, the worse we are at something, the more likely we will overate our skills. In Dunning’s words, “The knowledge and intelligence that are required to be good at a task are often the same qualities needed to recognize that one is not good at that task—and if one lacks such knowledge and intelligence, one remains ignorant that one is not good at that task.”
In short, “incompetence robs [us] of the ability to realize it.” We “are left with the erroneous impression [we] are doing just fine.”
https://www.intellectualtakeout.org/article/why-humans-increasingly-are-unaware-their-ignorance-and-why-its-big-problem?fbclid=IwAR3MeaVInrQ2G3N95-luHScxAAg-yYJHP9TXmTSxrPRjvorJoXnvte51tvU
Plenty more at this link.
+1
Very good article Maddog
Guest- Guest
Re: Why Humans Increasingly Are Unaware of Their Ignorance
so. what you are saying is
the ignorance of the ignorant
is the ignorance of ignorance???
or something like that........
the ignorance of the ignorant
is the ignorance of ignorance???
or something like that........
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Re: Why Humans Increasingly Are Unaware of Their Ignorance
Lord Foul wrote:so. what you are saying is
the ignorance of the ignorant
is the ignorance of ignorance???
or something like that........
Some folks might be too dumb, to know they are dumb.
But that's just part of the problem. Folks are really exposed to a lot of information, and then they form opinions based on that amount of information. Let's take shootings in the US. The exposure to shootings has never been higher, but the number of shootings is actually lower than in most of our lifetimes. Many people have drawn the conclusion that shootings are more common, because of the exposure, not the facts.
The same can be said of immigrants killing people or children being killed. People have formed opinions, devoid of actual facts or statistics.
People use emotions, not logic when forming opinions. The use the internet to confirm their biases and to attack people with a different bias, or a lack of bias.
I love to piss off old people when the say "well, these days!"
In most ways, these days are better than the good old days, but they are not interested in hearing that.
And now I'm just rambling.
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Re: Why Humans Increasingly Are Unaware of Their Ignorance
Did you ever experience the "good old days"? There is plenty to like about them . I don't mean the really "old".
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Re: Why Humans Increasingly Are Unaware of Their Ignorance
Wise man once say :
"Opinions are like arseholes -- everybody has one..".
When I was in 2nd year at Hawkesbury Ag' College I went to the graduation dinner for those 3rd and 4th year residential students who would be graduating at the end of that year..
The guest speaker that evening (a Hawkesbury 'old boy' past-graduate himself..) said that those leaving their time at college should keep in mind that finishing your formal education time wasn't an end to your education, but "just the beginning of your learning" -- as you would keep on learning more, for the rest of your life.
Indeed, the crux of that message always rings true -- as the more that you do learn, the more that you realise that you don't know -- and, hopefully, the more that you want to keep on learning..
What I do find disconcerting is when some ignorant yob who knows that they can't effectively counter what you've just said, comes out with that old chestnut : "My/our opinions are 'worth' just as much as your facts/figures/truths"...
Or even worse, when they stop a discussion with a surly remark such as "You're an 'expert'/you're so perfect/people don't like a knowall/you're a liar..", simply because they won't admit to being wrong..
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Re: Why Humans Increasingly Are Unaware of Their Ignorance
I think some people get a bit worn out with "learning" though. It's fine to keep learning what you really need to learn, but you don't want too much information overload.
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Re: Why Humans Increasingly Are Unaware of Their Ignorance
I was born in 1963, so I'm sora old.nicko wrote:Did you ever experience the "good old days"? There is plenty to like about them . I don't mean the really "old".
I think humans are programmed to look at the past more favorably than it actually was. I also think we associate the past with being young, and most of us miss being young. I know that sometimes I look at a pretty 25 year old thing, and for a few seconds its 1990 in my mind.
Then i wake up.
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Re: Why Humans Increasingly Are Unaware of Their Ignorance
This article is actually totally what I think.
See my signature for more of what I think...
See my signature for more of what I think...
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Re: Why Humans Increasingly Are Unaware of Their Ignorance
eddie wrote:This article is actually totally what I think.
See my signature for more of what I think...
Yeah but point of order Eddie
At times you ignore medical expertise and base your views as better
To me I would call that ignorance, as at times, you think you know better.
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Re: Why Humans Increasingly Are Unaware of Their Ignorance
Raggamuffin wrote:I think some people get a bit worn out with "learning" though. It's fine to keep learning what you really need to learn, but you don't want too much information overload.
If you don't keep learning, there's a good chance you'll miss something you need to know.
People who change the world for the better never stop learning.
Re: Why Humans Increasingly Are Unaware of Their Ignorance
Thor wrote:eddie wrote:This article is actually totally what I think.
See my signature for more of what I think...
Yeah but point of order Eddie
At times you ignore medical expertise and base your views as better
To me I would call that ignorance, as at times, you think you know better.
I know better? Of course not. I remain open. It is only when one closes ones mind and refuses to remain open, that one thinks one knows better.
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Re: Why Humans Increasingly Are Unaware of Their Ignorance
You remain open on chemo?eddie wrote:Thor wrote:
Yeah but point of order Eddie
At times you ignore medical expertise and base your views as better
To me I would call that ignorance, as at times, you think you know better.
I know better? Of course not. I remain open. It is only when one closes ones mind and refuses to remain open, that one thinks one knows better.
You remain open on vaccinations?
What a doctor advises, after telling me you claimed you knew better than your own doctor, based as you know your body better than they could?
How is that remaining open?
Please tell me?
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Re: Why Humans Increasingly Are Unaware of Their Ignorance
>THE Ben Reilly< wrote:Raggamuffin wrote:I think some people get a bit worn out with "learning" though. It's fine to keep learning what you really need to learn, but you don't want too much information overload.
If you don't keep learning, there's a good chance you'll miss something you need to know.
People who change the world for the better never stop learning.
Like what? I don't want to clutter my mind up with things I don't need to know about. I've had a lifetime of that.
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Re: Why Humans Increasingly Are Unaware of Their Ignorance
Raggamuffin wrote:>THE Ben Reilly< wrote:
If you don't keep learning, there's a good chance you'll miss something you need to know.
People who change the world for the better never stop learning.
Like what? I don't want to clutter my mind up with things I don't need to know about. I've had a lifetime of that.
So you are basically shutting out potential knowledge, based on a view you do not want to know
How is that helping you learn, you might in fact possible be mistaken on something?
I have at times change my view and perception on a view things. If I had not, I would remained dogmatic. To be closed to different ideas or actualy views, is being closed minded
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Re: Why Humans Increasingly Are Unaware of Their Ignorance
Thor wrote:Raggamuffin wrote:
Like what? I don't want to clutter my mind up with things I don't need to know about. I've had a lifetime of that.
So you are basically shutting out potential knowledge, based on a view you do not want to know
How is that helping you learn, you might in fact possible be mistaken on something?
I have at times change my view and perception on a view things. If I had not, I would remained dogmatic. To be closed to different ideas or actualy views, is being closed minded
I don't need to learn about something I don't need to know about - as I said. I have enough to think about with work, life in general, etc. If I have a particular interest in something I'll find out about it, but I don't want information overload - that road leads to stress.
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Re: Why Humans Increasingly Are Unaware of Their Ignorance
Raggamuffin wrote:Thor wrote:
So you are basically shutting out potential knowledge, based on a view you do not want to know
How is that helping you learn, you might in fact possible be mistaken on something?
I have at times change my view and perception on a view things. If I had not, I would remained dogmatic. To be closed to different ideas or actualy views, is being closed minded
I don't need to learn about something I don't need to know about - as I said. I have enough to think about with work, life in general, etc. If I have a particular interest in something I'll find out about it, but I don't want information overload - that road leads to stress.
Which means you are very closeminded and not open to the view you could actually be wrong
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Re: Why Humans Increasingly Are Unaware of Their Ignorance
Thor wrote:Raggamuffin wrote:
I don't need to learn about something I don't need to know about as I said. I have enough to think about with work, life in general, etc. If I have a particular interest in something I'll find out about it, but I don't want information overload - that road leads to stress.
Which means you are very closeminded and not open to the view you could actually be wrong
So what?
Anyway, I can't be wrong about something I don't know about because I wouldn't have an opinion on it.
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Re: Why Humans Increasingly Are Unaware of Their Ignorance
Raggamuffin wrote:Thor wrote:
Which means you are very closeminded and not open to the view you could actually be wrong
So what?
Anyway, I can't be wrong about something I don't know about because I wouldn't have an opinion on it.
Well lets talk about something you do know about
Christinaity
I was once a believer and it shows I was open to the idea i could be wrong and now am athiest
However, this does not mean I am right, as I am still open to the possibility I could be wrong that no god exists
I could be wrong that in fact the Christian God exist. Howver i would be appalled if such a god did exist
Which means I am open and not a closed book. Where as people already religious, tend to be closed books on this
Now are you open to the idea you could be wrong on your beliefs with Christianity?
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Re: Why Humans Increasingly Are Unaware of Their Ignorance
Thor wrote:You remain open on chemo?eddie wrote:Thor wrote:
Yeah but point of order Eddie
At times you ignore medical expertise and base your views as better
To me I would call that ignorance, as at times, you think you know better.
I know better? Of course not. I remain open. It is only when one closes ones mind and refuses to remain open, that one thinks one knows better.
You remain open on vaccinations?
What a doctor advises, after telling me you claimed you knew better than your own doctor, based as you know your body better than they could?
How is that remaining open?
Please tell me?
How do you remain open?
I dont get angry when people disagree with me either, you do. I think you should think about what that means.
Take a look at my signature.
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Re: Why Humans Increasingly Are Unaware of Their Ignorance
Thor wrote:Raggamuffin wrote:
So what?
Anyway, I can't be wrong about something I don't know about because I wouldn't have an opinion on it.
Well lets talk about something you do know about
Christinaity
I was once a believer and it shows I was open to the idea i could be wrong and now am athiest
However, this does not mean I am right, as I am still open to the possibility I could be wrong that no god exists
I could be wrong that in fact the Christian God exist. Howver i would be appalled if such a god did exist
Which means I am open and not a closed book. Where as people already religious, tend to be closed books on this
Now are you open to the idea you could be wrong on your beliefs with Christianity?
Of course not.
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Re: Why Humans Increasingly Are Unaware of Their Ignorance
Raggamuffin wrote:Thor wrote:
Well lets talk about something you do know about
Christinaity
I was once a believer and it shows I was open to the idea i could be wrong and now am athiest
However, this does not mean I am right, as I am still open to the possibility I could be wrong that no god exists
I could be wrong that in fact the Christian God exist. Howver i would be appalled if such a god did exist
Which means I am open and not a closed book. Where as people already religious, tend to be closed books on this
Now are you open to the idea you could be wrong on your beliefs with Christianity?
Of course not.
So like I said closeminded then
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Re: Why Humans Increasingly Are Unaware of Their Ignorance
eddie wrote:Thor wrote:
You remain open on chemo?
You remain open on vaccinations?
What a doctor advises, after telling me you claimed you knew better than your own doctor, based as you know your body better than they could?
How is that remaining open?
Please tell me?
How do you remain open?
I dont get angry when people disagree with me either, you do. I think you should think about what that means.
Take a look at my signature.
I agree my passions run away with me, but again unlike you, I later take stock and think about what people say when calm
Which means unlike you and how you failed to answer my points
I am not closeminded
It means I reason peoples points and at times change my views, as I am open to other ideas.
How many times have you change your views, when you have been dogmatic before?
Last edited by Thor on Sat Jan 12, 2019 8:33 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Why Humans Increasingly Are Unaware of Their Ignorance
Thor wrote:Raggamuffin wrote:
Of course not.
So like I said closeminded then
That's just your word for it. I see it as not being swayed by other people who doubt or disbelieve. That's a good thing. You're just swaying in the wind according to what others say.
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Re: Why Humans Increasingly Are Unaware of Their Ignorance
Raggamuffin wrote:Thor wrote:
So like I said closeminded then
That's just your word for it. I see it as not being swayed by other people who doubt or disbelieve. That's a good thing. You're just swaying in the wind according to what others say.
That is being closeminded, as you are not open then to other views or the fact you could be wrong
I am open to the view i can and at times am wrong
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Re: Why Humans Increasingly Are Unaware of Their Ignorance
Thor wrote:You remain open on chemo?eddie wrote:
I know better? Of course not. I remain open. It is only when one closes ones mind and refuses to remain open, that one thinks one knows better.
You remain open on vaccinations?
What a doctor advises, after telling me you claimed you knew better than your own doctor, based as you know your body better than they could?
How is that remaining open?
Please tell me?
There's nothing wrong with doubting what a doctor says. I've had good reason to do so in the past and also the present. I do recall being a bit cross with eddie re her attitude at the surgery, but that's another issue.
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Re: Why Humans Increasingly Are Unaware of Their Ignorance
Thor wrote:Raggamuffin wrote:
That's just your word for it. I see it as not being swayed by other people who doubt or disbelieve. That's a good thing. You're just swaying in the wind according to what others say.
That is being closeminded, as you are not open then to other views or the fact you could be wrong
I am open to the view i can and at times am wrong
Then being closeminded can be a good thing, right? I'm also closeminded on issues like hunting with dogs, and I see that as a good thing.
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Re: Why Humans Increasingly Are Unaware of Their Ignorance
Thor wrote:eddie wrote:
How do you remain open?
I dont get angry when people disagree with me either, you do. I think you should think about what that means.
Take a look at my signature.
I agree my passions run away with me, but again unlike you, I later take stock and think about what people say when calm
Which means unlike you and how you failed to answer my points
I am not closeminded
It means I reason peoples points and at times change my views, as I am open to other ideas.
How many times have you change your views, when you have been dogmatic before?
I've never seen you change your views on here, unless it's to be controversial and argumentative. You usually try to bludgeon people into agreeing with you, no matter what.
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Re: Why Humans Increasingly Are Unaware of Their Ignorance
Raggamuffin wrote:Thor wrote:
I agree my passions run away with me, but again unlike you, I later take stock and think about what people say when calm
Which means unlike you and how you failed to answer my points
I am not closeminded
It means I reason peoples points and at times change my views, as I am open to other ideas.
How many times have you change your views, when you have been dogmatic before?
I've never seen you change your views on here, unless it's to be controversial and argumentative. You usually try to bludgeon people into agreeing with you, no matter what.
Really, I once used to defend Islam, ask anyone here
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Re: Why Humans Increasingly Are Unaware of Their Ignorance
Raggamuffin wrote:Thor wrote:
That is being closeminded, as you are not open then to other views or the fact you could be wrong
I am open to the view i can and at times am wrong
Then being closeminded can be a good thing, right? I'm also closeminded on issues like hunting with dogs, and I see that as a good thing.
Not really if it blinds you to follow bad things
Take religious extremism for example, where people think its righteous to murder people and think they will get into heaven for doing this
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Re: Why Humans Increasingly Are Unaware of Their Ignorance
Thor wrote:Raggamuffin wrote:
Then being closeminded can be a good thing, right? I'm also closeminded on issues like hunting with dogs, and I see that as a good thing.
Not really if it blinds you to follow bad things
Take religious extremism for example, where people think its righteous to murder people and think they will get into heaven for doing this
I'm not following a bad thing though. I'm not responsible for what anyone else does.
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Re: Why Humans Increasingly Are Unaware of Their Ignorance
Raggamuffin wrote:Thor wrote:
Not really if it blinds you to follow bad things
Take religious extremism for example, where people think its righteous to murder people and think they will get into heaven for doing this
I'm not following a bad thing though. I'm not responsible for what anyone else does.
Does not matter, when as seen you remain closeminded to things
The possibility then is you have no conception you may be doing the wrong thing, when closeminded
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Re: Why Humans Increasingly Are Unaware of Their Ignorance
Thor wrote:Raggamuffin wrote:
I'm not following a bad thing though. I'm not responsible for what anyone else does.
Does not matter, when as seen you remain closeminded to things
The possibility then is you have no conception you may be doing the wrong thing, when closeminded
That's fine by me. I don't spend all my time worrying about whether I'm doing the wrong thing or not. My beliefs are not hurting anyone, they are my own business, and it's not for you to question them. You are overthinking this.
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Re: Why Humans Increasingly Are Unaware of Their Ignorance
Thor wrote:eddie wrote:Thor wrote:
You remain open on chemo?
You remain open on vaccinations?
What a doctor advises, after telling me you claimed you knew better than your own doctor, based as you know your body better than they could?
How is that remaining open?
Please tell me?
How do you remain open?
I dont get angry when people disagree with me either, you do. I think you should think about what that means.
Take a look at my signature.
I agree my passions run away with me, but again unlike you, I later take stock and think about what people say when calm
Which means unlike you and how you failed to answer my points
I am not closeminded
It means I reason peoples points and at times change my views, as I am open to other ideas.
How many times have you change your views, when you have been dogmatic before?
But didge, I don’t have to “change my mind” because my mind is never made up.
Hence we are back to my original statement.
I hope you’re starting to see my point.
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Re: Why Humans Increasingly Are Unaware of Their Ignorance
Raggamuffin wrote:Thor wrote:
Does not matter, when as seen you remain closeminded to things
The possibility then is you have no conception you may be doing the wrong thing, when closeminded
That's fine by me. I don't spend all my time worrying about whether I'm doing the wrong thing or not. My beliefs are not hurting anyone, they are my own business, and it's not for you to question them. You are overthinking this.
I am sure ISIS dont think they are doing wrong either Rags
They actually think its righteous what they do
As they are closeminded
Have a good evening
Night
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Re: Why Humans Increasingly Are Unaware of Their Ignorance
We now have the leisure to learn things we don't really need, previously we had to learn skills to survive and keep the things we required to do our work repaired etc. There weren't many specialists like now,
How would the average person manage these days if something decimated the world's population, we'd be ok for a while with food and tools. possibly a generation but we'd need to re learn a heck of a lot of ordinary stuff, so I'd say were are getting more ignorant and we don't realise it.
How would the average person manage these days if something decimated the world's population, we'd be ok for a while with food and tools. possibly a generation but we'd need to re learn a heck of a lot of ordinary stuff, so I'd say were are getting more ignorant and we don't realise it.
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Wed Feb 22, 2023 5:14 pm by Tommy Monk
» Interesting COVID figures
Tue Feb 21, 2023 5:00 am by Tommy Monk
» HAPPY CHRISTMAS.
Sun Jan 01, 2023 7:33 pm by Tommy Monk
» The Fight Over Climate Change is Over (The Greenies Won!)
Thu Dec 15, 2022 3:59 pm by Tommy Monk
» Trump supporter murders wife, kills family dog, shoots daughter
Mon Dec 12, 2022 1:21 am by 'Wolfie
» Quill
Thu Oct 20, 2022 10:28 pm by Tommy Monk
» Algerian Woman under investigation for torture and murder of French girl, 12, whose body was found in plastic case in Paris
Thu Oct 20, 2022 10:04 pm by Tommy Monk
» Wind turbines cool down the Earth (edited with better video link)
Sun Oct 16, 2022 9:19 am by Ben Reilly
» Saying goodbye to our Queen.
Sun Sep 25, 2022 9:02 pm by Maddog
» PHEW.
Sat Sep 17, 2022 6:33 pm by Syl
» And here's some more enrichment...
Thu Sep 15, 2022 3:46 pm by Ben Reilly
» John F Kennedy Assassination
Thu Sep 15, 2022 3:40 pm by Ben Reilly
» Where is everyone lately...?
Thu Sep 15, 2022 3:33 pm by Ben Reilly
» London violence over the weekend...
Mon Sep 05, 2022 2:19 pm by Tommy Monk
» Why should anyone believe anything that Mo Farah says...!?
Wed Jul 13, 2022 1:44 am by Tommy Monk
» Liverpool Labour defends mayor role poll after turnout was only 3% and they say they will push ahead with the option that was least preferred!!!
Mon Jul 11, 2022 1:11 pm by Tommy Monk
» Labour leader Keir Stammer can't answer the simple question of whether a woman has a penis or not...
Mon Jul 11, 2022 3:58 am by Tommy Monk
» More evidence of remoaners still trying to overturn Brexit... and this is a conservative MP who should be drummed out of the party and out of parliament!
Sun Jul 10, 2022 10:50 pm by Tommy Monk
» R Kelly 30 years, Ghislaine Maxwell 20 years... but here in UK...
Fri Jul 08, 2022 5:31 pm by Original Quill