'Dear Sir. Please don't give me the job - I headbutted my last employer': Shameless email used by benefits claimant to avoid work as it emerges thousands are applying for roles but failing to turn up for their first shifts

Thousands of unemployed benefits claimants are 'scamming the system' by applying for jobs but then failing to turn up for an interview or their first shift. They only apply for roles to satisfy Job Centre staff that they are 'actively looking for work', and so remain eligible for taxpayer-funded handouts. A snapshot survey of employers, who all agreed to speak on condition of anonymity, has found shocking examples of the lengths to which workshy claimants go to avoid getting a job.

In Stoke, a cleaning company boss said he had received emails from applicants urging him not to give them work.

'I got an application from this one guy through the Job Centre and he followed it up six hours later with an email listing all the reasons why I shouldn't give him a job.

'He said he had anger issues and had headbutted his last employer. I couldn't believe it,' he said.

'I am paying £9-an-hour but I have had people in from the Job Centre telling me quite openly that they don't want a job and they are only applying so that they don't get kicked off their benefits.'

Those on benefits are required to keep a journal and satisfy Job Centre staff that they are looking for a job.


https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6450903/Thousands-benefits-claimants-applying-roles-failing-turn-shifts.html

Didn't it used to be that you would have your benefits stopped if you refused three work offers?
This was in the days when the dole office workers gave you an appointment for a job interview and got feed back from the place you had to attend for the interview, not like now where you look for yourself, so I'm told.
It seems a bit disjointed now as with most government departments.

Sounds like a societal problem that could be solved by allowing hard-working Texans to come over and prove their worth ... just for an example.

Seriously, if they'd let me, I'd come over and stay in a hotel, buying all my own food, until I landed a job that apparently no Brit wants to do. They could even put a cop on me so that they could promise I wasn't benefiting from any welfare. I wouldn't even use the NHS if I got sick.

I could pull together about $10,000 that I have available to me (including cashing in my retirement fund) and live off that until I got a job. And I certainly wouldn't pull a scam like this, because a work visa would make me a legal resident.

I wish I could get you one !

*~[THE Ben Reilly]~* wrote:Sounds like a societal problem that could be solved by allowing hard-working Texans to come over and prove their worth ... just for an example.

Seriously, if they'd let me, I'd come over and stay in a hotel, buying all my own food, until I landed a job that apparently no Brit wants to do. They could even put a cop on me so that they could promise I wasn't benefiting from any welfare. I wouldn't even use the NHS if I got sick.

I could pull together about $10,000 that I have available to me (including cashing in my retirement fund) and live off that until I got a job. And I certainly wouldn't pull a scam like this, because a work visa would make me a legal resident.

Did you apply to the chippy?

I'm not even sure it's true.  In this day and age people decide which side of an issue they're on, then frame their stories.  Baby coughs on drink of water = mother attempts to drown baby.  Even worse with political issues.

Raggamuffin wrote:

*~[THE Ben Reilly]~* wrote:Sounds like a societal problem that could be solved by allowing hard-working Texans to come over and prove their worth ... just for an example.

Seriously, if they'd let me, I'd come over and stay in a hotel, buying all my own food, until I landed a job that apparently no Brit wants to do. They could even put a cop on me so that they could promise I wasn't benefiting from any welfare. I wouldn't even use the NHS if I got sick.

I could pull together about $10,000 that I have available to me (including cashing in my retirement fund) and live off that until I got a job. And I certainly wouldn't pull a scam like this, because a work visa would make me a legal resident.

Did you apply to the chippy?

I heard enough of these stories that I'm now holding out for something closer to edds

I bet it’s mostly English people not working and scamming for benefits. Eastern European’s are working everywhere. Working hard and putting many of us English people to shame.

I see it over and over again.

I'm not saying these people don't work hard, but they do have an incentive, a weeks wages, minimum wage, is more than they could earn in in a month or so at home  Some people are living four to a room in three up three down houses on minimum wage and still sending money home or saving for their own dream house at home. They only go to work and home. One young couple lived in a terraced house in a room with two other people they had never met before, the bedrooms had four people in each, the two living rooms had six beds each, there was one bathroom. That's at least 24 people in one average terraced house. Many of them are desperate to make money, they are being exploited. On the other hand, who born and raised here and on minimum wage, can afford to rent here, let alone build their own house.

£9 an hour to have some worthless and brainless scumbag oxygen thieves exploiting and abusing and insulting you all day  ???

What is the minimum wage over there these days ???

I wonder how many people on here would be prepared to work hard for less than $12 an hour, before taxes ?  And then still find transport, accommodation..

Original Quill wrote:
I'm not even sure it's true.  In this day and age people decide which side of an issue they're on, then frame their stories.  Baby coughs on drink of water = mother attempts to drown baby.  Even worse with political issues.

I'm always quite suspicious of these stories, too...

Whenever I see these biased and targetted political propaganda pieces masquerading as "news", I suspect that the government is preparing to further cut welfare benefits/spending and pensions, and are building up their fictional background scenarios to justify some new "austerity" measures..

In this case, build up their story that all young people are wastrels, everyone on welfare is there because they want to be, pensioners and unemployed are all responsible for their current circumstances, all potential employers are naturally generous and kind hearted and only want to help you, and on and on.

WhoseYourWolfie wrote:

£9 an hour to have some worthless and brainless scumbag oxygen thieves exploiting and abusing and insulting you all day  ???

What is the minimum wage over there these days ???

I wonder how many people on here would be prepared to work hard for less than $12 an hour, before taxes ?  And then still find transport, accommodation..

The current national living wage is £7.83, but you have to be over 25 to get that, otherwise you get the minimum wage, which is £7.38 if you're over 21, £5.90 if you're between 18 and 20, and £4.20 if you're under 18.

I don't know how that compares to dollars, but many people here do work for those rates.

eddie wrote:I bet it’s mostly English people not working and scamming for benefits. Eastern European’s are working everywhere. Working hard and putting many of us English people to shame.

I see it over and over again.

I don't think that Eastern Europeans can just come here and get JSA and other benefits can they? In that case, they have to work. It could also be Scottish people, or Welsh people.

WhoseYourWolfie wrote:

Original Quill wrote:
I'm not even sure it's true.  In this day and age people decide which side of an issue they're on, then frame their stories.  Baby coughs on drink of water = mother attempts to drown baby.  Even worse with political issues.

I'm always quite suspicious of these stories, too...

Whenever I see these biased and targetted political propaganda pieces masquerading as "news", I suspect that the government is preparing to further cut welfare benefits/spending and pensions, and are building up their fictional background scenarios to justify some new "austerity" measures..

In this case, build up their story that all young people are wastrels, everyone on welfare is there because they want to be,  pensioners and unemployed are all responsible for their current circumstances,  all potential employers are naturally generous and kind hearted and only want to help you,  and on and on.

They don't need to cut benefits, they just need to apply the current rules. If someone is applying for jobs with the intention of turning them down or deliberately failing at the interview, they're not actively looking for work.

WhoseYourWolfie wrote:

Original Quill wrote:
I'm not even sure it's true.  In this day and age people decide which side of an issue they're on, then frame their stories.  Baby coughs on drink of water = mother attempts to drown baby.  Even worse with political issues.

I'm always quite suspicious of these stories, too...

Whenever I see these biased and targetted political propaganda pieces masquerading as "news", I suspect that the government is preparing to further cut welfare benefits/spending and pensions, and are building up their fictional background scenarios to justify some new "austerity" measures..

In this case, build up their story that all young people are wastrels, everyone on welfare is there because they want to be,  pensioners and unemployed are all responsible for their current circumstances,  all potential employers are naturally generous and kind hearted and only want to help you,  and on and on.

So you reckon the government can tell the media a story made of lies and the media will just print it anyway?

Interesting.....

eddie wrote:I bet it’s mostly English people not working and scamming for benefits. Eastern European’s are working everywhere. Working hard and putting many of us English people to shame.

I see it over and over again.

Too right, edds

my daughter used to work on Heathway hill at a salon with a cafe next door that she used to go into and told me she was infuriated cos there were women sitting outside the cafe in their PJs moaning about how immigrants are everywhere and taking all the jobs. My daughter said she was tempted to say something like ''yeah, i can see you're really keen to get a job, sat there like that''. she didn't,,,,,personally, I would have but she didn't

plus at the same time she was working part time for Aldi and said the immigrant workers were amazing, came in early, stayed late, didn't have many breaks etc, they worked like well oiled machines,,,,very much putting many of English people to shame

gelico wrote:

eddie wrote:I bet it’s mostly English people not working and scamming for benefits. Eastern European’s are working everywhere. Working hard and putting many of us English people to shame.

I see it over and over again.

Too right, edds

my daughter used to work on Heathway hill at a salon with a cafe next door that she used to go into and told me she was infuriated cos there were women sitting outside the cafe in their PJs moaning about how immigrants are everywhere and taking all the jobs.  My daughter said she was tempted to say something like ''yeah, i can see you're really keen to get a job, sat there like that''.  she didn't,,,,,personally, I would have but she didn't

plus at the same time she was working part time for Aldi and said the immigrant workers were amazing, came in early, stayed late, didn't have many breaks etc, they worked like well oiled machines,,,,very much putting many of English people to shame

That's an interesting statement.

Firstly, I am in full agreement that a lot of Brits really are lazy and take the piss out of the benefits system, absolutely no doubt about that. I do think it is often made to seem a bigger problem that it really is, but still enough to warrant dealing with.

However, your statement is interesting because it shows the expectation of what a 'good worker' is considered to be by many. While I certainly think that coming in early and working through breaks has some merit in jobs where a genuine career ladder exists, I also think the promotion of that ideal might actually be a kind of covert way (not from you) of getting more out of people while not offering them any greater reward. And I know some think taking pride in your work is a virtue in itself, and I don't entirely disagree, but working through breaks, starting early and finishing late should not be something we expect and certainly shouldn't be the hallmarks of what a good worker is (and therefore also isn't).

It has also been mentioned above, that considering the income compared to the income in their home countries, immigrants have good reason to work hard to secure their position considering how much they can help their families.

Anyway, I'm not really going anywhere with this other than a general rant against "capitalist values". I read a quote from Elon Musk recenetly that said "No one ever changed the world working less than 50 hours a week". It made me sick. It is obvious our 'capitalist overlords' would see everyone working ridiculous amounts of overtime, through breaks and starting early and finishing late on a regular basis, for little extra, with some vague idea of being a 'model worker' trying to 'change the world' when really it amounts to willingly putting yourself out for someone who will ultimately pay you as little as they can in most cases.

But yeah, some Brits do take the piss.

Eilzel wrote:

gelico wrote:

Too right, edds

my daughter used to work on Heathway hill at a salon with a cafe next door that she used to go into and told me she was infuriated cos there were women sitting outside the cafe in their PJs moaning about how immigrants are everywhere and taking all the jobs.  My daughter said she was tempted to say something like ''yeah, i can see you're really keen to get a job, sat there like that''.  she didn't,,,,,personally, I would have but she didn't

plus at the same time she was working part time for Aldi and said the immigrant workers were amazing, came in early, stayed late, didn't have many breaks etc, they worked like well oiled machines,,,,very much putting many of English people to shame

That's an interesting statement.

Firstly, I am in full agreement that a lot of Brits really are lazy and take the piss out of the benefits system, absolutely no doubt about that. I do think it is often made to seem a bigger problem that it really is, but still enough to warrant dealing with.

However, your statement is interesting because it shows the expectation of what a 'good worker' is considered to be by many. While I certainly think that coming in early and working through breaks has some merit in jobs where a genuine career ladder exists, I also think the promotion of that ideal might actually be a kind of covert way (not from you) of getting more out of people while not offering them any greater reward. And I know some think taking pride in your work is a virtue in itself, and I don't entirely disagree, but working through breaks, starting early and finishing late should not be something we expect and certainly shouldn't be the hallmarks of what a good worker is (and therefore also isn't).

It has also been mentioned above, that considering the income compared to the income in their home countries, immigrants have good reason to work hard to secure their position considering how much they can help their families.

Anyway, I'm not really going anywhere with this other than a general rant against "capitalist values". I read a quote from Elon Musk recenetly that said "No one ever changed the world working less than 50 hours a week". It made me sick. It is obvious our 'capitalist overlords' would see everyone working ridiculous amounts of overtime, through breaks and starting early and finishing late on a regular basis, for little extra, with some vague idea of being a 'model worker' trying to 'change the world' when really it amounts to willingly putting yourself out for someone who will ultimately pay you as little as they can in most cases.

But yeah, some Brits do take the piss.

You make some very good points les and I understand what you're saying, perhaps I should have gone into more detail

for example, when I say early, I mean the immigrant workers will clock in 5-10 minutes before their shift starts in order to put their stuff away, have a wee or whatever and be on the shop floor bang on when their shift begins whereas english, clock in 3 seconds before their shift starts and be 5 minutes late on the the shop floor. likewise at the end of their shifts, immigrants won't leave until they have tidied their workspace and left it immaculate for the next person whereas English ones are rushing straight out the door. It's just those sort of subtle differences which make me understand why and employer would want them.

as for Elon Musk, I suspect he was talking of those who start the enterprises and actually create goods/services etc. After all these capitalist overlords are the very ones who have probably for years worked much more than 50 hours a week constantly, taken risks, taken hits etc etc to make their enterprise work and also provide employment for others.

I understand your cynicism only too well though

eddie wrote:

WhoseYourWolfie wrote:


I'm always quite suspicious of these stories, too...

Whenever I see these biased and targetted political propaganda pieces masquerading as "news", I suspect that the government is preparing to further cut welfare benefits/spending and pensions, and are building up their fictional background scenarios to justify some new "austerity" measures..

In this case, build up their story that all young people are wastrels, everyone on welfare is there because they want to be,  pensioners and unemployed are all responsible for their current circumstances,  all potential employers are naturally generous and kind hearted and only want to help you,  and on and on.

So you reckon the government can tell the media a story made of lies and the media will just print it anyway?

Interesting.....

The government, and parts within it, as obviously important players, have ways of stimulating interest in certain subject, and thus steering the public conversation. Then you plant stories, or frame discussions such that common people start taking about it. Look how trump uses this tactic to change the subject so often, and steer away from bad news on another front. Any government has that power...called 'managing the news'.

The right, in particular, has motive to start managing news, as I've said repeatedly. They are usually found trying to cut social services & taxes, or start wars. Then Labour pushes back, and we have a political debate such as we have here.

Someone plants an OP-ED about tactics that welfare recipients use to avoid work, and voilà, here are these small business owners saying: Ahah, that's what's happening! Then the comments of the owners, interviewed by reporters, come back as a 'given' about the subject, when in fact it's only a theory...and a biased one, at that.

Yes Quill. I have been saying for years that we are spoon-fed stories.

eddie wrote:Yes Quill. I have been saying for years that we are spoon-fed stories.

I think this story, about potential employees discouraging work offers, is one such planted story. Generally, these stories are first discussed as a possibility, greeted by the news consumer as fitting nicely within his or her political perspective, then repeated back as fact.

Original Quill wrote:

eddie wrote:Yes Quill. I have been saying for years that we are spoon-fed stories.

I think this story, about potential employees discouraging work offers, is one such planted story.  Generally, these stories are first discussed as a possibility, greeted by the news consumer as fitting nicely within his or her political perspective, then repeated back as fact.

Quill, it happens - and it is happening all too frequently.

Benefit fraud is already costing this country's taxpayers billions- yes, billions - of pounds a year, and this is money that should rightly be spent on people who are genuinely in need; the mentally and physically sick, the old and infirm and those who are unemployed (or even unemployable) through no fault of their own.

In other words it is theft. Purely and simply theft; theft not only from people who work their arses off providing for themselves, their families and the futures in old age, but also theft from those less fortunate who are unable to do so and need all the help and support that the state can give.

In my day as a journalist, the regional and national newspapers and broadcast organisations that I worked for investigated many allegations of fraud and deliberate work avoidance, and where they were proved- beyond reasonable doubt, as you lawyers rightly demand - they were exposed.

That was our job, and we did it to the best of our ability and in accordance with the dictum of the great Manchester Guardian Editor C P Scott that "...comment is free but facts are sacred."

I have no doubt whatsoever that today's much maligned legitimate journalists are no less committed to those principles and that they are a damn site more professional than you appear to believe.

As lawyer of obvious note (as opposed to "Mathew Hopkins, lawyer of little note"), I would hope that you above most in this forum, are able to distinguish between
factual material published or broadcast by the responsible news media and that by the utterly maverick, irresponsible, uninformed, propagandist social media.

A real journalist does not unquestioningly accept "spoon-fed" political propaganda and fake news from any side, Left or Right.

Newspapers will publish material in accordance within their own stated editorial policies (Daily Mail=Conservative; The Guardian=Labour)...but in my experience, never without making enormous effort to establish that it is fact and not fiction.

It sounds very much like "voter fraud" in this country. It doesn't exist, but it justifies faux restrictive measures to keep blacks and Hispanics away from the polls.

We used to call them Jim Crow laws in the south. Don't know why.

What percentage of benefit payments do you think is lost to fraud?

A survey in 2013 by Ipsos Mori suggested people believed that £24 out of every £100 spent on benefits was fraudulently claimed.

What do you think - too high, too low?

Want to know the real answer?

It's £1.10 in every £100.

The figure is an estimate from an official government document, from the Department for Work and Pensions (DWP), published last December and refers to the financial year 2015-16.

The figure may well be a lot less than you thought, but it's still a lot of money. In 2015-16, total spending on benefits was £172.3bn, which means that £1.9bn was fraudulently claimed.

The fraud rate - 1.1% - rose from 0.8% in 2014-15, and now stands at the highest recorded rate. That may be because more people are "at it", but probably not.

After the end of the 2014-15 financial year, officials changed their methodology, which has resulted in more overpayments being attributed to fraud rather than claimant error.

It depends on what you mean by fraud. Is it not fraudulent to claim JSA when you don't actually want to get a job?

Raggamuffin wrote:It depends on what you mean by fraud. Is it not fraudulent to claim JSA when you don't actually want to get a job?

Fraud is an intent crime. You must prove 'state of mind'. The only way to get that is to put the subject under oath. That''s why Trump won't go under oath in this country.

Original Quill wrote:

eddie wrote:Yes Quill. I have been saying for years that we are spoon-fed stories.

I think this story, about potential employees discouraging work offers, is one such planted story.  Generally, these stories are first discussed as a possibility, greeted by the news consumer as fitting nicely within his or her political perspective, then repeated back as fact.

Mate it is Not 
I have Friends that do this for a living 
this is 100% something that is done on purpose there is no lies of deceit in the article 
YES bogan and chavs DO this, it's a Fact of life

People are Poor not Fucking Stupid.
why work 40 hours for only twice as much as you will get doing NOTHING but bullshitting on a few form to say you applied for jobs?
I know mates that take turns where one will do All 3 of their forms for that Fortnight and one of the others the next week 
they literally fill in all 3 the same just random jobs adverts they found but normally don't even bother to ring

Raggamuffin wrote:

WhoseYourWolfie wrote:

£9 an hour to have some worthless and brainless scumbag oxygen thieves exploiting and abusing and insulting you all day  ???

What is the minimum wage over there these days ???

I wonder how many people on here would be prepared to work hard for less than $12 an hour, before taxes ?  And then still find transport, accommodation..

The current national living wage is £7.83, but you have to be over 25 to get that, otherwise you get the minimum wage, which is £7.38 if you're over 21, £5.90 if you're between 18 and 20, and £4.20 if you're under 18.

I don't know how that compares to dollars, but many people here do work for those rates.

well £7.83 is only about $13.50


 it 's $18.93 an hour in Australia

veya_victaous wrote:

Original Quill wrote:

I think this story, about potential employees discouraging work offers, is one such planted story.  Generally, these stories are first discussed as a possibility, greeted by the news consumer as fitting nicely within his or her political perspective, then repeated back as fact.

Mate it is Not 
I have Friends that do this for a living 
this is 100% something that is done on purpose there is no lies of deceit in the article 
YES bogan and chavs DO this, it's a Fact of life

We don't do this in our country. Hence, it is alien to me.

Original Quill wrote:

veya_victaous wrote:

Original Quill wrote:

I think this story, about potential employees discouraging work offers, is one such planted story.  Generally, these stories are first discussed as a possibility, greeted by the news consumer as fitting nicely within his or her political perspective, then repeated back as fact.

Mate it is Not 
I have Friends that do this for a living 
this is 100% something that is done on purpose there is no lies of deceit in the article 
YES bogan and chavs DO this, it's a Fact of life

We don't do this in our country.  Hence, it is alien to me.

the USA doesn't have the equivalent payments. Food stamps etc is not the same as $300 cash a week, Plus Rent assistance or gov't housing. 

you can Choose to not work here, 
It's not the great life, you wont get real Luxuries or holidays or ever really own anything   

but you wont starve and as long as you fill in the forms Society will put a roof over your head.

if your options are that or a shit kicker on minimum wage spending 40 hours at a job you hate .....  we it's 50/50 which is the worse existence. 
BUT Is that the Fault of the Bogan or Society? that a full time unskilled laborer only gets an insignificant amount more than the minimum income needed(the Dole is consider the minimum you need to survive) even though he works 40 hours?

It's a hard call, it could easily be argued that it's not worth wasting your life kicking shit for the difference in Income it provides... 
Plus If you're a Chick, pop out a few Kids and you're Set, as that will up your payment.. and Guys just do dodgy/illegal work on the side  

Original Quill wrote:

veya_victaous wrote:

Original Quill wrote:

I think this story, about potential employees discouraging work offers, is one such planted story.  Generally, these stories are first discussed as a possibility, greeted by the news consumer as fitting nicely within his or her political perspective, then repeated back as fact.

Mate it is Not 
I have Friends that do this for a living 
this is 100% something that is done on purpose there is no lies of deceit in the article 
YES bogan and chavs DO this, it's a Fact of life

We don't do this in our country.  Hence, it is alien to me.

Erm yes they do? I’m a huge fan of judge Judy and there are tons and tons of people claiming unemployment, disability, Veterans allowance, social funds....you name it!

All over the US from every state.

gelico wrote:

Eilzel wrote:

gelico wrote:

Too right, edds

my daughter used to work on Heathway hill at a salon with a cafe next door that she used to go into and told me she was infuriated cos there were women sitting outside the cafe in their PJs moaning about how immigrants are everywhere and taking all the jobs.  My daughter said she was tempted to say something like ''yeah, i can see you're really keen to get a job, sat there like that''.  she didn't,,,,,personally, I would have but she didn't

plus at the same time she was working part time for Aldi and said the immigrant workers were amazing, came in early, stayed late, didn't have many breaks etc, they worked like well oiled machines,,,,very much putting many of English people to shame

That's an interesting statement.

Firstly, I am in full agreement that a lot of Brits really are lazy and take the piss out of the benefits system, absolutely no doubt about that. I do think it is often made to seem a bigger problem that it really is, but still enough to warrant dealing with.

However, your statement is interesting because it shows the expectation of what a 'good worker' is considered to be by many. While I certainly think that coming in early and working through breaks has some merit in jobs where a genuine career ladder exists, I also think the promotion of that ideal might actually be a kind of covert way (not from you) of getting more out of people while not offering them any greater reward. And I know some think taking pride in your work is a virtue in itself, and I don't entirely disagree, but working through breaks, starting early and finishing late should not be something we expect and certainly shouldn't be the hallmarks of what a good worker is (and therefore also isn't).

It has also been mentioned above, that considering the income compared to the income in their home countries, immigrants have good reason to work hard to secure their position considering how much they can help their families.

Anyway, I'm not really going anywhere with this other than a general rant against "capitalist values". I read a quote from Elon Musk recenetly that said "No one ever changed the world working less than 50 hours a week". It made me sick. It is obvious our 'capitalist overlords' would see everyone working ridiculous amounts of overtime, through breaks and starting early and finishing late on a regular basis, for little extra, with some vague idea of being a 'model worker' trying to 'change the world' when really it amounts to willingly putting yourself out for someone who will ultimately pay you as little as they can in most cases.

But yeah, some Brits do take the piss.

You make some very good points les and I understand what you're saying, perhaps I should have gone into more detail

for example, when I say early, I mean the immigrant workers will clock in 5-10 minutes before their shift starts in order to put their stuff away, have a wee or whatever and be on the shop floor bang on when their shift begins whereas english, clock in 3 seconds before their shift starts and be 5 minutes late on the the shop floor.  likewise at the end of their shifts, immigrants won't leave until they have tidied their workspace and left it immaculate for the next person whereas English ones are rushing straight out the door.  It's just those sort of subtle differences which make me understand why and employer would want them.

as for Elon Musk, I suspect he was talking of those who start the enterprises and actually create goods/services etc.  After all these capitalist overlords are the very ones who have probably for years worked much more than 50 hours a week constantly, taken risks, taken hits etc etc to make their enterprise work and also provide employment for others.

I understand your cynicism only too well though

Agreed, some people take the piss with that sort of thing. That is just defining good workers vs bad ones.

Maybe Musk was, the quote was isolated in fairness, but it can easily be used to push people to go further. Also, while some entrepreneurs certainly take risks and deserve all they earn, there are a huge chunk of directors and owners out there who didn't have to take that many risks and who have been gifted a lot of what they have.

The true meaning of an "entrepreneur" is somebody who establishes, builds/grows and maintains a business enterprise...

Over here, the great majority of genuine entrepreneurs are "small business" people (i.e. employ less than 25 people, usually with an annual turnover of only a few $million$..).

Here in Oz, over 60% of workers are employed by SMEs (Small and Medium-sized Enterprises), over 20% by govt's, bureaucracies, 'Qangos' and 'NGO's --  with less than 15% being employed by "Big Business" entities (less than half what it was 40 or 50 years ago --  largely thanks to mechanisation, automation, outsourcing, streamlining/'multi-tasking' and "off-shoring"..).

A few small businesses will grow into "medium size" businesses (those employing between 26 and 250 workers, with annual turnovers measured in tens of $millions$, sometimes hundreds of millions..).  

Rarely, a small percentage will grow into "big business" enterprises --  while at the same time maybe some 60% of "small business" operations will remain sole operator, family business or small time employers.

There are a lot of 'SME' business owner/operators out there who will call themselves "entrepreneurs" when in truth they have never created, established or built a business enterprise in their lives --  this includes those who inherit businesses and/or money, buy franchises or established businesses, or even scamsters, drug dealers and other crims running fake "front" companies.

People like Thomas Edison, Henry Ford, Bill Gates, Steve Jobs, 1st-generation farmers, truck and taxi 'owner-drivers', local crafts people and artisans running their own businesses --  all of these can be labelled as 'entrepreneurs' when they established their first business entities..

People like Donald Trump, Vlad Putin, Queen Elizabeth,  or any big business or big money person buying and selling established business --  they aren't genuine "entrepreneurs", and it is an insult to those who build up a business up 'from scratch', to label heirs, raiders or thieves as such...

The simple truth, is that corporations and the "big money moguls" running them have destroyed more jobs than they have created over the last 30 or 40 years..

"Queen Elizabeth" ?

nicko wrote:
"Queen Elizabeth" ?

Admittedly, that example is a bit dated, considering Her Maj's age and semi-retirement...

However, the British Royal Family can be considered an inherited "big" business enterprise -- with $$billions$$ in assets (even after allowing for some 90% of the "Crown's" assets belonging to 'the National Estate', and not the family..), it's directors, and turning over hundreds of millions in gross revenue each year..

What I was thinking of was the way many people would have commented on her investments over the years -- the racehorses, farms, art/stamp&coin collections -- ignoring the salient fact that she employs good advisors and managers.

eddie wrote:

Original Quill wrote:

We don't do this in our country.  Hence, it is alien to me.

Erm yes they do? I’m a huge fan of judge Judy and there are tons and tons of people claiming unemployment, disability, Veterans allowance, social funds....you name it!

All over the US from every state.

I love Judge Judy. She don't stand for shit.

HoratioTarr wrote:

eddie wrote:

Original Quill wrote:

We don't do this in our country.  Hence, it is alien to me.

Erm yes they do? I’m a huge fan of judge Judy and there are tons and tons of people claiming unemployment, disability, Veterans allowance, social funds....you name it!

All over the US from every state.

I love Judge Judy.  She don't stand for shit.

Yep. And if you watch any documentary of her way back when she was a family court judge, you’ll see why she shone, rose above her peers and stood way, way higher than most.

She sees through the shit of it all and just finds the simple truth. As she says:

“If a story doesn’t sound right it’s usually because it isn’t true”

“If YOU didn’t see it, hear it, smell it, taste it or feel it...then you weren’t there so you DON’T KNOW WHAT HAPPENED, it’s HEARSAY”

Absofuckinglutely.

my kids have always said that i'm like judge judy just cos i've always insisted on knowing every single detail when they come home with some story or another about something that had happened.

who was there
who said what
how many others were there
where was it exactly


''FFS mum''

eddie wrote:

Original Quill wrote:

We don't do this in our country.  Hence, it is alien to me.

Erm yes they do? I’m a huge fan of judge Judy and there are tons and tons of people claiming unemployment, disability, Veterans allowance, social funds....you name it!

All over the US from every state.

Judge Judy? And who asks the questions? Who draws out the fact? Judge Judy's show depends upon people who are in dire straits. Select for people with legal difficulty, and you are inevitably going to find a disproportionate number of them are people with unemployment and/or disability problems.

Veya was suggesting that in Australia some people "do this for a living". People in America are not enthusiastic about being unproductive. There's a difference between unemployment or disability being an incidental fact, and unemployment being a status that people actually covet.

Perhaps in the British Commonwealth being on the dole may have become normalized. That is not the case here. There might be a few such individuals here and there, but in America most derive great pride in their work status.

gelico wrote:

my kids have always said that i'm like judge judy just cos i've always insisted on knowing every single detail when they come home with some story or another about something that had happened.

who was there
who said what
how many others were there
where was it exactly


''FFS mum''

Judge Judy does not always render legally correct decisions.  She tends to go with the popular sentiment.  Remember, first and foremost, it is entertainment.

All participants in these pseudo-law shows enter into a contract, whereby the show will pay any and all damages or money awards handed down...regardless of fault.  So, the attitude of participants is, why not?

The real point is because participants have no losses, they have no complaints--no appeal or cause of action when all is done.  That's how the show gets away with it.

veya_victaous wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:

The current national living wage is £7.83, but you have to be over 25 to get that, otherwise you get the minimum wage, which is £7.38 if you're over 21, £5.90 if you're between 18 and 20, and £4.20 if you're under 18.

I don't know how that compares to dollars, but many people here do work for those rates.

well £7.83 is only about $13.50


 it 's $18.93 an hour in Australia

It used to be worse when there was just minimum wage. It used to go up about 10 or 11p per hour a year. Now it goes up a bit more. From next April the NLW for those over 25 will be £8.21 per hour - an increase of 38p per hour.