As more trans women who were convicted as men hope to follow rapist Martin Ponting into female wings, prison governors fear vulnerable inmates could be attacked

Prison governors warned last night that transferring sex offenders who are born male but believe they are female into women’s jails could lead to vulnerable inmates being attacked.

Transgender activists are demanding a change in the law so that anyone can do this simply by announcing they ‘self-identify’ as a member of the opposite sex.

It is known that some transgender women convicted for sex crimes as men have already been moved to women’s jails.


Davina Ayrton, who was jailed for eight years in 2016 for raping a girl of 15 in 2004 when called David

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5798945/Trans-women-convicted-men-attack-vulnerable-inmates.html

If they're convicted of rape, and they still have a dick, they shouldn't be allowed anywhere near women.

Craig Hauxwell (left as Lisa) was jailed for 14 years for raping two teenage girls and seven indecent assaults

You look at this and you know that no amount of hormone replacement and surgery will cut the mustard.

I think that rapists and any kind of serious violent offenders convicted as men should NOT be allowed the right to move to a women's prison. Full stop.

In other cases I'd be open to it.

However, Horatio, whatever people think of trans people, comments about hormone treatment 'not cutting it' miss the point. I do not care for the man in the picture posted, he's a cvnt, but others who you may judge as 'not cutting it' may still identify as women and shouldn't be mocked for doing so.

Eilzel wrote:I think that rapists and any kind of serious violent offenders convicted as men should NOT be allowed the right to move to a women's prison. Full stop.

In other cases I'd be open to it.

However, Horatio, whatever people think of trans people, comments about hormone treatment 'not cutting it' miss the point. I do not care for the man in the picture posted, he's a cvnt, but others who you may judge as 'not cutting it' may still identify as women and shouldn't be mocked for doing so.

It's no good waving the 'Not all transgenders are the same' banner when you've got male rapists posing as transgender in places where women feel threatened. That's what doesn't cut the fucking mustard. As a woman, I'm sick to death of this. All we hear is the right of these people when what equally matters, if not more so, is rights of women to say no to transgender toilets and other places where they feel intimidated or uncomfortable. Why should we have to endure this because some bloke who wants to identify as female has hurt feelings? You can't change human nature, no matter how much you want to drag it kicking and screaming into the politically correct arena. I don't want to have to share a public toilet with a transgender with a dick and who looks like Jame Gumb. And it's my right not to if that's what I choose.

What's perturbing those women in jail isn't so much the physical threat as the emotional and mental threat being posed by those rapist trans. It's the very fact that they were/are rapists that makes a woman feel exposed. Doesn't matter how much lipstick you slap on it or how many implants. It's still a rapist. And having to share your space with that?

I have nothing against trans...that's their affair. But don't try to force it on women in places that are intimate and where they feel vulnerable. Most women, for most of their lives, have to run the gauntlet of some kind of intimidation. If society is happy to invent another gender, then go make a new set of public lavatories for those genders. That way everyone is happy.

You can bet your life no Muslim woman would tolerate sharing a toilet/changing area with a trans.

The majority of transgender males opt to keep the meat and two veg anyway.

Thank you H/T, my words exactly !

I don't get that bit, if you genuinely identify with a woman, behave and dress like a woman, surely anything that reminds you that you have a male body - beards and genitalia must be a problem to you.
I agree about Muslim women and I have to say I am with them. I don't like using unisex toilets or changing rooms, many people including men, think there should still be some public places that you can have some privacy. I also agree with what was said regarding rapists and violent prisoners.  I suppose we'll all get used to it.

HT wrote:It's no good waving the 'Not all transgenders are the same' banner when you've got male rapists posing as transgender in places where women feel threatened. That's what doesn't cut the fucking mustard. As a woman, I'm sick to death of this. All we hear is the right of these people when what equally matters, if not more so, is rights of women to say no to transgender toilets and other places where they feel intimidated or uncomfortable.

If a male rapist is going to pose as a transgender, the answer is banning public restrooms, not prohibiting transgenders.  A rapist will pose as whatever is allowed.  If you limit restrooms to women, he'll show up as a woman.  He's gonna do what he has to do to pull it off.

The answer is to change public restrooms to private restrooms....like those porta-pottys.  The idea of 'public' restrooms--male or female or transgender--is the problem.

HoratioTarr wrote:

Eilzel wrote:I think that rapists and any kind of serious violent offenders convicted as men should NOT be allowed the right to move to a women's prison. Full stop.

In other cases I'd be open to it.

However, Horatio, whatever people think of trans people, comments about hormone treatment 'not cutting it' miss the point. I do not care for the man in the picture posted, he's a cvnt, but others who you may judge as 'not cutting it' may still identify as women and shouldn't be mocked for doing so.

It's no good waving the 'Not all transgenders are the same' banner when you've got male rapists posing as transgender in places where women feel threatened.  That's what doesn't cut the fucking mustard.    As a woman, I'm sick to death of this.   All we hear is the right of these people when what equally matters, if not more so,  is rights of women to say no to transgender toilets and other places where they feel intimidated or uncomfortable.   Why should we have to endure this because some bloke who wants to identify as female has hurt feelings?   You can't change human nature, no matter how much you want to drag it kicking and screaming into the politically correct arena.  I don't want  to have to share a public toilet with a transgender with a dick and who looks like Jame Gumb.   And it's my right not to if that's what I choose.

What's perturbing those women in jail isn't so much the physical threat as the emotional and mental threat being posed by those rapist trans.   It's the very fact that they were/are rapists that makes a woman feel exposed.  Doesn't matter how much lipstick you slap on it or how many implants.   It's still a rapist.  And having to share your space with that?  

I have nothing against trans...that's their affair.   But don't try to force it on women in places that are intimate and where they feel vulnerable.   Most women, for most of their lives, have to run the gauntlet of some kind of intimidation.   If society is happy to invent another gender, then go make a new set of  public lavatories for those genders.    That way everyone is happy.  

You can bet your life no Muslim woman would tolerate sharing a toilet/changing area with a trans.    

The majority of transgender males opt to keep the meat and two veg anyway.

You're repeating what I already said in regards to rapists and violent criminals.

I think the commonsense in not giving such people their rights in that regard should not conflict with the rights of other, law abiding, trans people.
I don't care what you say about the rapists, trans or otherwise, I hate them as much as you do. All I'm asking for is a little decency toward other trans people who you may or may not think 'cut it' as a woman.

Do you have an actual source for the statement that most opt not to have the operation? And if so, is that down to costs/other issues or personal preference?

Eilzel wrote:

HoratioTarr wrote:

It's no good waving the 'Not all transgenders are the same' banner when you've got male rapists posing as transgender in places where women feel threatened.  That's what doesn't cut the fucking mustard.    As a woman, I'm sick to death of this.   All we hear is the right of these people when what equally matters, if not more so,  is rights of women to say no to transgender toilets and other places where they feel intimidated or uncomfortable.   Why should we have to endure this because some bloke who wants to identify as female has hurt feelings?   You can't change human nature, no matter how much you want to drag it kicking and screaming into the politically correct arena.  I don't want  to have to share a public toilet with a transgender with a dick and who looks like Jame Gumb.   And it's my right not to if that's what I choose.

What's perturbing those women in jail isn't so much the physical threat as the emotional and mental threat being posed by those rapist trans.   It's the very fact that they were/are rapists that makes a woman feel exposed.  Doesn't matter how much lipstick you slap on it or how many implants.   It's still a rapist.  And having to share your space with that?  

I have nothing against trans...that's their affair.   But don't try to force it on women in places that are intimate and where they feel vulnerable.   Most women, for most of their lives, have to run the gauntlet of some kind of intimidation.   If society is happy to invent another gender, then go make a new set of  public lavatories for those genders.    That way everyone is happy.  

You can bet your life no Muslim woman would tolerate sharing a toilet/changing area with a trans.    

The majority of transgender males opt to keep the meat and two veg anyway.

You're repeating what I already said in regards to rapists and violent criminals.

I think the commonsense in not giving such people their rights in that regard should not conflict with the rights of other, law abiding, trans people.
I don't care what you say about the rapists, trans or otherwise, I hate them as much as you do. All I'm asking for is a little decency toward other trans people who you may or may not think 'cut it' as a woman.

Do you have an actual source for the statement that most opt not to have the operation? And if so, is that down to costs/other issues or personal preference?

The problem is very simple and where its all gone wrong.

If people believe that they are a woman, in the biological body of a man. Does not then mean, they should be treated as if they are a biological woman. They are not. Its nothing more than the mind where someone believes that they are. That is not a problem. Its a problem when they then think they are biologically a woman and should be treated as such. They are not.  They have no idea what is like to actually live and be a woman on many factors. One being that they do not have periods nor would they ever go through Menopause. There is nothing wrong with them seeing themselves as women, but to treat them as women, when they are not biologically is a problem. They should have rights like everyone else, but their rights should then not extend over to effecting the lives of others. They are transgender

They are not women and women who think they are men, are not men biologically, they are transgender.

This explains it better than I do

Eilzel wrote:

HoratioTarr wrote:

It's no good waving the 'Not all transgenders are the same' banner when you've got male rapists posing as transgender in places where women feel threatened.  That's what doesn't cut the fucking mustard.    As a woman, I'm sick to death of this.   All we hear is the right of these people when what equally matters, if not more so,  is rights of women to say no to transgender toilets and other places where they feel intimidated or uncomfortable.   Why should we have to endure this because some bloke who wants to identify as female has hurt feelings?   You can't change human nature, no matter how much you want to drag it kicking and screaming into the politically correct arena.  I don't want  to have to share a public toilet with a transgender with a dick and who looks like Jame Gumb.   And it's my right not to if that's what I choose.

What's perturbing those women in jail isn't so much the physical threat as the emotional and mental threat being posed by those rapist trans.   It's the very fact that they were/are rapists that makes a woman feel exposed.  Doesn't matter how much lipstick you slap on it or how many implants.   It's still a rapist.  And having to share your space with that?  

I have nothing against trans...that's their affair.   But don't try to force it on women in places that are intimate and where they feel vulnerable.   Most women, for most of their lives, have to run the gauntlet of some kind of intimidation.   If society is happy to invent another gender, then go make a new set of  public lavatories for those genders.    That way everyone is happy.  

You can bet your life no Muslim woman would tolerate sharing a toilet/changing area with a trans.    

The majority of transgender males opt to keep the meat and two veg anyway.

You're repeating what I already said in regards to rapists and violent criminals.

I think the commonsense in not giving such people their rights in that regard should not conflict with the rights of other, law abiding, trans people.
I don't care what you say about the rapists, trans or otherwise, I hate them as much as you do. All I'm asking for is a little decency toward other trans people who you may or may not think 'cut it' as a woman.

Do you have an actual source for the statement that most opt not to have the operation? And if so, is that down to costs/other issues or personal preference?

You're not a woman if you have male genitals. Transgender men will never biologically be women...even if those genitals are removed and altered. All they can do is try their best to feel like women and act like women. Most people accept this, and each to their own and I for one would never pillory someone who goes down that route. But don't then try to force intimate interaction on females who don't feel comfortable with it and make them feel like a bloody pariah.

I've just about had it up the back teeth of being told by the faction of PC "call me Mike's" who insist we all kow tow to the sensibilities of the"Great Offended". To them I'll say... I'll respect you if you respect me. I matter too. It's not all about 'You'.

Eilzel wrote:

HoratioTarr wrote:

It's no good waving the 'Not all transgenders are the same' banner when you've got male rapists posing as transgender in places where women feel threatened.  That's what doesn't cut the fucking mustard.    As a woman, I'm sick to death of this.   All we hear is the right of these people when what equally matters, if not more so,  is rights of women to say no to transgender toilets and other places where they feel intimidated or uncomfortable.   Why should we have to endure this because some bloke who wants to identify as female has hurt feelings?   You can't change human nature, no matter how much you want to drag it kicking and screaming into the politically correct arena.  I don't want  to have to share a public toilet with a transgender with a dick and who looks like Jame Gumb.   And it's my right not to if that's what I choose.

What's perturbing those women in jail isn't so much the physical threat as the emotional and mental threat being posed by those rapist trans.   It's the very fact that they were/are rapists that makes a woman feel exposed.  Doesn't matter how much lipstick you slap on it or how many implants.   It's still a rapist.  And having to share your space with that?  

I have nothing against trans...that's their affair.   But don't try to force it on women in places that are intimate and where they feel vulnerable.   Most women, for most of their lives, have to run the gauntlet of some kind of intimidation.   If society is happy to invent another gender, then go make a new set of  public lavatories for those genders.    That way everyone is happy.  

You can bet your life no Muslim woman would tolerate sharing a toilet/changing area with a trans.    

The majority of transgender males opt to keep the meat and two veg anyway.

You're repeating what I already said in regards to rapists and violent criminals.

I think the commonsense in not giving such people their rights in that regard should not conflict with the rights of other, law abiding, trans people.
I don't care what you say about the rapists, trans or otherwise, I hate them as much as you do. All I'm asking for is a little decency toward other trans people who you may or may not think 'cut it' as a woman.

Do you have an actual source for the statement that most opt not to have the operation? And if so, is that down to costs/other issues or personal preference?

Being transgender only affects your gender, not your sexual orientation. That's the key issue here. This means a man who wants to identify as a woman won't necessarily be sexually attracted to men but can still desire women.

I don't doubt that the majority of trans are just regular people who wouldn't dream of being dodgy in any way in a public convenience. But this isn't about them. It's about the women who don't feel comfortable with it.

Urologist Miroslav Djordjevic, who specializes in gender reassignment surgery, has seen an increase in “reversal” surgeries among transgender women who want their male genitalia back. In the past five years, Djordjevic performed seven reversals in his clinic in Belgrade, Serbia. The urologist explains to The Telegraph that those who want the reversal display high levels of depression, and in some instances, suicidal thoughts. Other researchers also report hearing about such regrets.

http://www.newsweek.com/transgender-women-transgender-men-sex-change-sex-reassignment-surgery-676777


There is also some dispute from trans themselves who uphold that no one is born transgender. And many detransition. The below link is a very interesting article written by a person who believes he should never had become transgender. I'll bet there are many transgender who keep silent about their regrets too. So the statistics could be much higher than the known 20 percent who regret it and change back.

http://www.thepublicdiscourse.com/2016/09/17753/

Vintage wrote:I don't get that bit, if you genuinely identify with a woman, behave and dress like a woman, surely anything that reminds you that you have a male body - beards and genitalia must be a problem to you.
I agree about Muslim women and I have to say I am with them. I don't like using unisex toilets or changing rooms, many people including men, think there should still be some public places that you can have some privacy. I also agree with what was said regarding rapists and violent prisoners.  I suppose we'll all get used to it.

Like I said, transgender isn't associated with your sexuality. Many transgender men stay with their wives.

Oh by the way. This thread has been followed by Phil, who's posted an abusive rant on CM about it. Obviously, I ignored it and deleted it. Nothing from him gets through. But just goes to show he's got his snout pressed up against this forum day and night. Must be awful for him not to be able to post here.

Didge wrote:

Eilzel wrote:

HoratioTarr wrote:

It's no good waving the 'Not all transgenders are the same' banner when you've got male rapists posing as transgender in places where women feel threatened.  That's what doesn't cut the fucking mustard.    As a woman, I'm sick to death of this.   All we hear is the right of these people when what equally matters, if not more so,  is rights of women to say no to transgender toilets and other places where they feel intimidated or uncomfortable.   Why should we have to endure this because some bloke who wants to identify as female has hurt feelings?   You can't change human nature, no matter how much you want to drag it kicking and screaming into the politically correct arena.  I don't want  to have to share a public toilet with a transgender with a dick and who looks like Jame Gumb.   And it's my right not to if that's what I choose.

What's perturbing those women in jail isn't so much the physical threat as the emotional and mental threat being posed by those rapist trans.   It's the very fact that they were/are rapists that makes a woman feel exposed.  Doesn't matter how much lipstick you slap on it or how many implants.   It's still a rapist.  And having to share your space with that?  

I have nothing against trans...that's their affair.   But don't try to force it on women in places that are intimate and where they feel vulnerable.   Most women, for most of their lives, have to run the gauntlet of some kind of intimidation.   If society is happy to invent another gender, then go make a new set of  public lavatories for those genders.    That way everyone is happy.  

You can bet your life no Muslim woman would tolerate sharing a toilet/changing area with a trans.    

The majority of transgender males opt to keep the meat and two veg anyway.

You're repeating what I already said in regards to rapists and violent criminals.

I think the commonsense in not giving such people their rights in that regard should not conflict with the rights of other, law abiding, trans people.
I don't care what you say about the rapists, trans or otherwise, I hate them as much as you do. All I'm asking for is a little decency toward other trans people who you may or may not think 'cut it' as a woman.

Do you have an actual source for the statement that most opt not to have the operation? And if so, is that down to costs/other issues or personal preference?

The problem is very simple and where its all gone wrong.

If people believe that they are a woman, in the biological body of a man. Does not then mean, they should be treated as if they are a biological woman. They are not. Its nothing more than the mind where someone believes that they are. That is not a problem. Its a problem when they then think they are biologically a woman and should be treated as such. They are not.  They have no idea what is like to actually live and be a woman on many factors. One being that they do not have periods nor would they ever go through Menopause. There is nothing wrong with them seeing themselves as women, but to treat them as women, when they are not biologically is a problem. They should have rights like everyone else, but their rights should then not extend over to effecting the lives of others. They are transgender

They are not women and women who think they are men, are not men biologically, they are transgender.

This explains it better than I do

In what ways do you think they should be treated differently to other women?

HoratioTarr wrote:

Eilzel wrote:

HoratioTarr wrote:

It's no good waving the 'Not all transgenders are the same' banner when you've got male rapists posing as transgender in places where women feel threatened.  That's what doesn't cut the fucking mustard.    As a woman, I'm sick to death of this.   All we hear is the right of these people when what equally matters, if not more so,  is rights of women to say no to transgender toilets and other places where they feel intimidated or uncomfortable.   Why should we have to endure this because some bloke who wants to identify as female has hurt feelings?   You can't change human nature, no matter how much you want to drag it kicking and screaming into the politically correct arena.  I don't want  to have to share a public toilet with a transgender with a dick and who looks like Jame Gumb.   And it's my right not to if that's what I choose.

What's perturbing those women in jail isn't so much the physical threat as the emotional and mental threat being posed by those rapist trans.   It's the very fact that they were/are rapists that makes a woman feel exposed.  Doesn't matter how much lipstick you slap on it or how many implants.   It's still a rapist.  And having to share your space with that?  

I have nothing against trans...that's their affair.   But don't try to force it on women in places that are intimate and where they feel vulnerable.   Most women, for most of their lives, have to run the gauntlet of some kind of intimidation.   If society is happy to invent another gender, then go make a new set of  public lavatories for those genders.    That way everyone is happy.  

You can bet your life no Muslim woman would tolerate sharing a toilet/changing area with a trans.    

The majority of transgender males opt to keep the meat and two veg anyway.

You're repeating what I already said in regards to rapists and violent criminals.

I think the commonsense in not giving such people their rights in that regard should not conflict with the rights of other, law abiding, trans people.
I don't care what you say about the rapists, trans or otherwise, I hate them as much as you do. All I'm asking for is a little decency toward other trans people who you may or may not think 'cut it' as a woman.

Do you have an actual source for the statement that most opt not to have the operation? And if so, is that down to costs/other issues or personal preference?

You're not a woman if you have male genitals.   Transgender men will never biologically be women...even if those genitals are removed and altered.   All they can do is try their best to feel like women and act like women.   Most people accept this, and each to their own and I for one would never pillory someone who goes down that route.  But don't then try to force intimate interaction on females who don't feel comfortable with it and make them feel like a bloody pariah.  

I've just about had it up the back teeth of being told by the faction of PC "call me Mike's" who insist we all kow tow to the sensibilities of the"Great Offended".   To them I'll say... I'll respect you if you respect me.   I matter too.   It's not all about 'You'.

No one is making anyone feel like a pariah.

And your statement on respect is all well as good, and I'd agree, until you say some of them 'don't cut it.' There's no respect in that sentence, only sneering and/or mockery.

HoratioTarr wrote:Oh by the way.  This thread has been followed by Phil, who's posted an abusive rant on CM about it.   Obviously, I ignored it and deleted it.  Nothing from him gets through.  But just goes to show he's got his snout pressed up against this forum day and night.  Must be awful for him not to be able to post here.

What's CM?

And tbh that is not surprising. I'd have thought he'd move on a long time ago but sadly he mustn't have anything else going on in life.

the comments about Muslim Women are wrong (sure some fundies won't but same with Prudish English ladies)

I've worked in a work place with a Transwoman and Muslim women they all shared a bath room

Eilzel wrote:

Didge wrote:


The problem is very simple and where its all gone wrong.

If people believe that they are a woman, in the biological body of a man. Does not then mean, they should be treated as if they are a biological woman. They are not. Its nothing more than the mind where someone believes that they are. That is not a problem. Its a problem when they then think they are biologically a woman and should be treated as such. They are not.  They have no idea what is like to actually live and be a woman on many factors. One being that they do not have periods nor would they ever go through Menopause. There is nothing wrong with them seeing themselves as women, but to treat them as women, when they are not biologically is a problem. They should have rights like everyone else, but their rights should then not extend over to effecting the lives of others. They are transgender

They are not women and women who think they are men, are not men biologically, they are transgender.

This explains it better than I do

In what ways do you think they should be treated differently to other women?

Well for a start, they are not women, but transgender.

Like I said, that is where you are going wrong.

So the question you should be asking, is why should they think they should be treated the same as women?

Everyone like I said, should have the same rights, and there should be a third facility for transgenders. Thus fair for everyone. You just cannot force this onto women..

Transgender rights, should never superscede the rights of women.

Anyway, I will be away a few days

All the best

You'd have to have two more, for trans men AND trans women. What are the costs for such a thing that may never even be used?

Also, how would you police it? Most trans people look like the gender they identify as. Will we have security guards checking ID? Or will it be arbitrary? Not to be rude, but there are some very masculine bigger women out there, and some very feminine men. Won't there be unfortunate mix ups?

It is an impoosible propsition tbh.

Toilets aside, I don't see how different treatment can happen, generally Trans people just want to be allowed to identify a certain way, and that's their business.

Eilzel wrote:

HoratioTarr wrote:Oh by the way.  This thread has been followed by Phil, who's posted an abusive rant on CM about it.   Obviously, I ignored it and deleted it.  Nothing from him gets through.  But just goes to show he's got his snout pressed up against this forum day and night.  Must be awful for him not to be able to post here.

What's CM?

And tbh that is not surprising. I'd have thought he'd move on a long time ago but sadly he mustn't have anything else going on in life.

He's now saying Ben invited him back here but he declined. Chaotic Musings is a very small chat forum I inherited.

Eilzel wrote:

HoratioTarr wrote:

You're not a woman if you have male genitals.   Transgender men will never biologically be women...even if those genitals are removed and altered.   All they can do is try their best to feel like women and act like women.   Most people accept this, and each to their own and I for one would never pillory someone who goes down that route.  But don't then try to force intimate interaction on females who don't feel comfortable with it and make them feel like a bloody pariah.  

I've just about had it up the back teeth of being told by the faction of PC "call me Mike's" who insist we all kow tow to the sensibilities of the"Great Offended".   To them I'll say... I'll respect you if you respect me.   I matter too.   It's not all about 'You'.

No one is making anyone feel like a pariah.

And your statement on respect is all well as good, and I'd agree, until you say some of them 'don't cut it.' There's no respect in that sentence, only sneering and/or mockery.

That's just your opinion. We now have a school insisting that boys wear skirts to school if they feel hot in the summer. All down to this gender neutral bollocks. If that isn't forcing something on someone I don't know what is. How about the feelings of the boys who find this repulsive? Don't they matter?

You keep focusing on the one thing you can here to offer any plausible counter argument...my saying those rapists don't cut it as women. If you read back, my comment was made specifically under that photo of the rapist Craig Hauxwell and was directed at him. So don't try to twist my words and meaning to suit your own agenda.

veya_victaous wrote:the comments about Muslim Women are wrong (sure some fundies won't but same with Prudish English ladies)

I've worked in a work place with a Transwoman and Muslim women they all shared a bath room

Of course you do if there's no alternative.

The debate here isn't about sharing a bathroom with trans. It's about being forced to do so with no other choices. Most women won't want to share a bathroom with a man, but that's the way it's going with gender neutral toilets. There should be three kinds. Male. Female. Neutral. Give people choices. I don't believe it's right either for trans men to be forced to use the gents. Most don't want to. Why? Because it makes them feel uncomfortable. Hello? So, provide unisex toilets alongside male and female. What's the problem? If public places must, by law, provide disabled facilities. Then do so for gender neutral.

HoratioTarr wrote:

Eilzel wrote:

HoratioTarr wrote:

You're not a woman if you have male genitals.   Transgender men will never biologically be women...even if those genitals are removed and altered.   All they can do is try their best to feel like women and act like women.   Most people accept this, and each to their own and I for one would never pillory someone who goes down that route.  But don't then try to force intimate interaction on females who don't feel comfortable with it and make them feel like a bloody pariah.  

I've just about had it up the back teeth of being told by the faction of PC "call me Mike's" who insist we all kow tow to the sensibilities of the"Great Offended".   To them I'll say... I'll respect you if you respect me.   I matter too.   It's not all about 'You'.

No one is making anyone feel like a pariah.

And your statement on respect is all well as good, and I'd agree, until you say some of them 'don't cut it.' There's no respect in that sentence, only sneering and/or mockery.

That's just your opinion.   We now have a school insisting that boys wear skirts to school if they feel hot in the summer.   All down to this gender neutral bollocks.   If that isn't forcing something on someone I don't know what is.   How about the feelings of the boys who find this repulsive?   Don't they matter?

You keep focusing on the one thing you can here to offer any plausible counter argument...my saying those rapists don't cut it as women.    If you read back, my comment was made specifically under that photo of the rapist Craig Hauxwell and was directed at him.  So don't try to twist my words and meaning to suit your own agenda.

Which school is this forcing boys to wear skirts?

What agenda do I have?

Eilzel wrote:You'd have to have two more, for trans men AND trans women. What are the costs for such a thing that may never even be used?

Also, how would you police it? Most trans people look like the gender they identify as. Will we have security guards checking ID? Or will it be arbitrary? Not to be rude, but there are some very masculine bigger women out there, and some very feminine men. Won't there be unfortunate mix ups?

It is an impoosible propsition tbh.

Toilets aside, I don't see how different treatment can happen, generally Trans people just want to be allowed to identify a certain way, and that's their business.

We already have unisex toilets. But they are invariably a single cubicle or room. And why would you have to have two sets of trans toilets when trans are demanding gender neutral toilets so they don't feel discriminated against? That's an utter contradiction. What trans really want is for us all to happily use the same toilets. But that's never going to happen. Particularly for those with rigid religious beliefs. Be they male or female. So what next? Muslims only toilets?

Like I said, it's not fair to force a transgender man to use the gents if that makes them feel uncomfortable. But why should a woman have to do the same? There has to be some sensitivity here, and some give and take.

I mean where does this all end? Most people believe all this gender neutral/non-binary ethics is getting ridiculous. Not being able to address someone as he or she. Forcing boys to wear skirts. Allowing young kids to take hormone replacements. It's fucking madness.

You are what you are. Just let it flow and accept we are all different, that we all matter. But don't beat us all over the head with your demands and umbrage. All public toilets should be separate enclosed cubicles in my opinion. Not a row of partition divided toilets. If they can do that for disabled, they can do it for everyone.

Eilzel wrote:

HoratioTarr wrote:

That's just your opinion.   We now have a school insisting that boys wear skirts to school if they feel hot in the summer.   All down to this gender neutral bollocks.   If that isn't forcing something on someone I don't know what is.   How about the feelings of the boys who find this repulsive?   Don't they matter?

You keep focusing on the one thing you can here to offer any plausible counter argument...my saying those rapists don't cut it as women.    If you read back, my comment was made specifically under that photo of the rapist Craig Hauxwell and was directed at him.  So don't try to twist my words and meaning to suit your own agenda.

Which school is this forcing boys to wear skirts?

What agenda do I have?

Chiltern Edge Secondary School in Oxfordshire has banned boys from wearing shorts and insists those who don’t want to wear trousers in the heatwave must don a skirt. I think the boys have done so more in protest. Not sure why shorts are banned.

Your agenda is to try and say I'm tarring all trans with the same brush. I'm not.

HoratioTarr wrote:

Eilzel wrote:You'd have to have two more, for trans men AND trans women. What are the costs for such a thing that may never even be used?

Also, how would you police it? Most trans people look like the gender they identify as. Will we have security guards checking ID? Or will it be arbitrary? Not to be rude, but there are some very masculine bigger women out there, and some very feminine men. Won't there be unfortunate mix ups?

It is an impoosible propsition tbh.

Toilets aside, I don't see how different treatment can happen, generally Trans people just want to be allowed to identify a certain way, and that's their business.

We already have unisex toilets.  But they are invariably a single cubicle or room.    And why would you have to have two sets of trans toilets when trans are demanding gender neutral toilets so they don't feel discriminated against?   That's an utter contradiction.  What trans really want is for us all to happily use the same toilets.  But that's never going to happen.  Particularly for those with rigid religious beliefs.  Be they male or female.  So what next?   Muslims only toilets?

Like I said, it's not fair to force a transgender man to use the gents if that makes them feel uncomfortable.   But why should a woman have to do the same?  There has to be some sensitivity here, and some give and take.

I mean where does this all end?   Most people believe all this gender neutral/non-binary ethics is getting ridiculous.  Not being able to address someone as he or she.   Forcing boys to wear skirts.   Allowing young kids to take hormone replacements.   It's fucking madness.

You are what you are.  Just let it flow and accept we are all different, that we all matter.   But don't beat us all over the head with your demands and umbrage.    All public toilets should be separate enclosed cubicles in my opinion.   Not a row of  partition divided toilets.   If they can do that for disabled, they can do it for everyone.    

I think we shouldn't have trans toilets. I know SOME trans people ask for these, but it is an utter redundancy in most cases. You cannot know, from looking at them, if someone is trans or not most of the time.

Would you want to share a toilet with this guy?


Should this lady have to go in the gents?


Do you think anyone would look twice at the man using the gents or the girl using the ladies? I doubt it.
Should they be expected to make it clear they are trans by having to use the same toilet?
Should trans men AND women have to use the same toilet?

To be honest, I think the whole 'toilet' discussion has been blown out of proportion by 1) conservatives in America actually making laws about this (seriously America, wtf?) AND 2) perhaps a small number of trans people asking for it. Mostly it could go unheard of without issue.

I'm not trying to make it look like you're having a go at trans people, I'm asking questions based it appearing that you don't indeed have any time for the issue or for those who identify this way. If I'm wrong, that's my misunderstanding, but your words led me to question, that's all.

As for the school - I remember that story, and thought the boys clever for defying the school that way. Uniform policies that are so strict are silly imo. However, you are misconstruing it a bit by saying the school was 'forcing' them to wear skirts (like some kind of militant trans move to feminise boys). They weren't forced to. The school has draconian dress codes which the students found a loophole in.

Eilzel wrote:

HoratioTarr wrote:

We already have unisex toilets.  But they are invariably a single cubicle or room.    And why would you have to have two sets of trans toilets when trans are demanding gender neutral toilets so they don't feel discriminated against?   That's an utter contradiction.  What trans really want is for us all to happily use the same toilets.  But that's never going to happen.  Particularly for those with rigid religious beliefs.  Be they male or female.  So what next?   Muslims only toilets?

Like I said, it's not fair to force a transgender man to use the gents if that makes them feel uncomfortable.   But why should a woman have to do the same?  There has to be some sensitivity here, and some give and take.

I mean where does this all end?   Most people believe all this gender neutral/non-binary ethics is getting ridiculous.  Not being able to address someone as he or she.   Forcing boys to wear skirts.   Allowing young kids to take hormone replacements.   It's fucking madness.

You are what you are.  Just let it flow and accept we are all different, that we all matter.   But don't beat us all over the head with your demands and umbrage.    All public toilets should be separate enclosed cubicles in my opinion.   Not a row of  partition divided toilets.   If they can do that for disabled, they can do it for everyone.    

I think we shouldn't have trans toilets. I know SOME trans people ask for these, but it is an utter redundancy in most cases. You cannot know, from looking at them, if someone is trans or not most of the time.

Would you want to share a toilet with this guy?


Should this lady have to go in the gents?


Do you think anyone would look twice at the man using the gents or the girl using the ladies? I doubt it.
Should they be expected to make it clear they are trans by having to use the same toilet?
Should trans men AND women have to use the same toilet?

To be honest, I think the whole 'toilet' discussion has been blown out of proportion by 1) conservatives in America actually making laws about this (seriously America, wtf?) AND 2) perhaps a small number of trans people asking for it. Mostly it could go unheard of without issue.

I'm not trying to make it look like you're having a go at trans people, I'm asking questions based it appearing that you don't indeed have any time for the issue or for those who identify this way. If I'm wrong, that's my misunderstanding, but your words led me to question, that's all.

As for the school - I remember that story, and thought the boys clever for defying the school that way. Uniform policies that are so strict are silly imo. However, you are misconstruing it a bit by saying the school was 'forcing' them to wear skirts (like some kind of militant trans move to feminise boys). They weren't forced to. The school has draconian dress codes which the students found a loophole in.

If all toilets are made gender neutral, then yes, we'll all be sharing the same toilets...male, female and trans/binary. So the trans women who feel so uncomfortable using the gents will end up sharing with men anyway.

I'm personally not arsed about sharing a toilet with a trans woman who looks like a woman and acts like one. I don't, however, want to share with a man, someone dressed as a woman who looks and acts like a man, or someone who gets his thrills by thinking he can masquarade as trans and not get challenged. You can't expect people to change their minds about this overnight and you won't ever get religion out of the equation.

Yeah, you're right about that school. Staff were saying wear a frock if you're not happy with the trousers. I still don't agree with that attitude.

Nor do I.

There is, of course, a difference, between transsexuals and transvestites and cross-dressers. The latter two should not be allowed in the ladies, and I don't think are.

There will always be some difficult cases - but how much of an issue is this in general? Not much, I imagine.

Eilzel wrote:Nor do I.

There is, of course, a difference, between transsexuals and transvestites and cross-dressers. The latter two should not be allowed in the ladies, and I don't think are.

There will always be some difficult cases - but how much of an issue is this in general? Not much, I imagine.

Well, if all toilets are made gender neutral, we'll all be sharing a shit together.

Gender neutral ? Meat and two Veg, ------Male,
Lady Garden--------Female !--------simples.

That 'guy' with the beard is a woman!!!


And I noticed earlier that someone posted up the claim that vast majority of trans people don't change their sexual preference... so a woman who takes male hormones, grows a bit of stubble on face, has a short haircut and puts on mens clothes etc, may well still fancy men, and may well be trying to go into gents toilets and getting off on trying to ogle mens cocks while they are at the urinals just trying to have a piss in peace, free from some pervy tranny trying to get a good look...!


I feel uncomfortable about that happening... do my feelings not count...!?


In fact... in the places I work, the cleaners in the mens toilets are sometimes women... and they are walking about in there bold as brass like it's no big deal etc, but I feel very uncomfortable about it and it makes me feel very awkward and self conscious and it's even embarrassing for me to then try to use the urinals etc, me standing there with my dick flopped out in hand and having a comfortable piss with some strange woman mopping the floor only a few feet away is impossible!!!


How many women would put up with a male cleaner bowling about in the ladies toilets...?


Not many I'd bet...!!!

Tommy Monk wrote:That 'guy' with the beard is a woman!!!


And I noticed earlier that someone posted up the claim that vast majority of trans people don't change their sexual preference... so a woman who takes male hormones, grows a bit of stubble on face, has a short haircut and puts on mens clothes etc, may well still fancy men, and may well be trying to go into gents toilets and getting off on trying to ogle mens cocks while they are at the urinals just trying to have a piss in peace, free from some pervy tranny trying to get a good look...!


I feel uncomfortable about that happening... do my feelings not count...!?


In fact... in the places I work, the cleaners in the mens toilets are sometimes women... and they are walking about in there bold as brass like it's no big deal etc, but I feel very uncomfortable about it and it makes me feel very awkward and self conscious and it's even embarrassing for me to then try to use the urinals etc, me standing there with my dick flopped out in hand and having a comfortable piss with some strange woman mopping the floor only a few feet away is impossible!!!


How many women would put up with a male cleaner bowling about in the ladies toilets...?


Not many I'd bet...!!!

Well, you already share toilets with gay men, tommy.
It might surprise you, but not everyone attracted to men wants to catch a look at every dirty pissing cock they can.

Though, since you seem to think men lack any self control in this regard, that probably tells us more about yourself than it does anyone else.

Hahahahahahahahaha that was just....funny.

If the person in the plum coloured top walked into the ladies I doubt anyone in there would take much notice, if however the person in the first photo (fur coated smoker)walked in, I'm sure a few people would be at very the least, startled. The one person has obviously taken transitioning seriously, I'm not so sure about the other.

Vintage wrote:If the person in the plum coloured top walked into the ladies I doubt anyone in there would take much notice, if however the person in the first photo (fur coated smoker)walked in, I'm sure a few people would be at very the least, startled. The one person has obviously taken transitioning seriously, I'm not so sure about the other.

True, but let's be brutally honest here, there are women who have a masculine look to them; and likewise some men who are very delicately built and could be mistake for a girl.

It all gets very tricky when it comes to the specific issue of who uses which toilets for these reasons alone. There aren't really many other circumstances where it even matters.

Eilzel wrote:

Tommy Monk wrote:That 'guy' with the beard is a woman!!!


And I noticed earlier that someone posted up the claim that vast majority of trans people don't change their sexual preference... so a woman who takes male hormones, grows a bit of stubble on face, has a short haircut and puts on mens clothes etc, may well still fancy men, and may well be trying to go into gents toilets and getting off on trying to ogle mens cocks while they are at the urinals just trying to have a piss in peace, free from some pervy tranny trying to get a good look...!


I feel uncomfortable about that happening... do my feelings not count...!?


In fact... in the places I work, the cleaners in the mens toilets are sometimes women... and they are walking about in there bold as brass like it's no big deal etc, but I feel very uncomfortable about it and it makes me feel very awkward and self conscious and it's even embarrassing for me to then try to use the urinals etc, me standing there with my dick flopped out in hand and having a comfortable piss with some strange woman mopping the floor only a few feet away is impossible!!!


How many women would put up with a male cleaner bowling about in the ladies toilets...?


Not many I'd bet...!!!

Well, you already share toilets with gay men, tommy.
It might surprise you, but not everyone attracted to men wants to catch a look at every dirty pissing cock they can.

Though, since you seem to think men lack any self control in this regard, that probably tells us more about yourself than it does anyone else.

I was talking about women in the gents, and about women dressed as men in the gents... It is some women here who are objecting to men being in the ladies toilets... although I don't see you saying anything about how 'not everyone attracted to women wants to catch a look at every dirty pissing cvnt they can'...!


But we all know too well that gents public toilets have long been a dodgy place to go because of the widespread lurking of dirty homosexuals in those places... and which is why most of the public toilets have been closed down now... with those remaining required to have full time attendants to keep the scum bags out!!!

Tommy Monk wrote:

Eilzel wrote:

Well, you already share toilets with gay men, tommy.
It might surprise you, but not everyone attracted to men wants to catch a look at every dirty pissing cock they can.

Though, since you seem to think men lack any self control in this regard, that probably tells us more about yourself than it does anyone else.

I was talking about women in the gents, and about women dressed as men in the gents... It is some women here who are objecting to men being in the ladies toilets... although I don't see you saying anything about how 'not everyone attracted to women wants to catch a look at every dirty pissing cvnt they can'...!


But we all know too well that gents public toilets have long been a dodgy place to go because of the widespread lurking of dirty homosexuals in those places... and which is why most of the public toilets have been closed down now... with those remaining required to have full time attendants to keep the scum bags out!!!

Isn't that called 'Cottaging'? Though a phrase further from a thatched house with roses growing round the doorway I can't imagine!

Tommy Monk wrote:

Eilzel wrote:

Tommy Monk wrote:That 'guy' with the beard is a woman!!!


And I noticed earlier that someone posted up the claim that vast majority of trans people don't change their sexual preference... so a woman who takes male hormones, grows a bit of stubble on face, has a short haircut and puts on mens clothes etc, may well still fancy men, and may well be trying to go into gents toilets and getting off on trying to ogle mens cocks while they are at the urinals just trying to have a piss in peace, free from some pervy tranny trying to get a good look...!


I feel uncomfortable about that happening... do my feelings not count...!?


In fact... in the places I work, the cleaners in the mens toilets are sometimes women... and they are walking about in there bold as brass like it's no big deal etc, but I feel very uncomfortable about it and it makes me feel very awkward and self conscious and it's even embarrassing for me to then try to use the urinals etc, me standing there with my dick flopped out in hand and having a comfortable piss with some strange woman mopping the floor only a few feet away is impossible!!!


How many women would put up with a male cleaner bowling about in the ladies toilets...?


Not many I'd bet...!!!

Well, you already share toilets with gay men, tommy.
It might surprise you, but not everyone attracted to men wants to catch a look at every dirty pissing cock they can.

Though, since you seem to think men lack any self control in this regard, that probably tells us more about yourself than it does anyone else.

I was talking about women in the gents, and about women dressed as men in the gents... It is some women here who are objecting to men being in the ladies toilets... although I don't see you saying anything about how 'not everyone attracted to women wants to catch a look at every dirty pissing cvnt they can'...!


But we all know too well that gents public toilets have long been a dodgy place to go because of the widespread lurking of dirty homosexuals in those places... and which is why most of the public toilets have been closed down now... with those remaining required to have full time attendants to keep the scum bags out!!!

But you do seem to think people, women or gay men, will try to catch an eyeful when sharing a toilet with you. Which is pretty disgusting tbh. Is that what you'd be doing if you got the chance?

We can only assume that Horatio has multiple bathrooms and toilets in her home, each designated seperately for males, females, adults, children, disabled and 'others '...

Otherwise she is spouting pure hypocritical rubbish..

Yet again,  as usual.

What’s the big deal? Who cares who uses what toilet?

I hate public toilets anyway, they stink. Male toilets smell like piss and female toilets smell like sweaty fish caves and quite honestly male or female....I don’t want to inhale anyone’s shit fumes.

WhoseYourWolfie wrote:

We can only assume that Horatio has multiple bathrooms and toilets in her home, each designated seperately for males, females, adults, children, disabled and 'others '...

Otherwise she is spouting pure hypocritical rubbish..

Yet again,  as usual.

Why is that hypocritical? In one instance you obviously live with and know the persons using the facilities in your house, its an entirely different scenario in public facilities, which are rarely pleasant places to be, although perhaps you allow random people to turn up and use the facilities in your home?

He lives in a Public Convenience

Vintage wrote:

WhoseYourWolfie wrote:

We can only assume that Horatio has multiple bathrooms and toilets in her home, each designated seperately for males, females, adults, children, disabled and 'others '...

Otherwise she is spouting pure hypocritical rubbish..

Yet again,  as usual.

Why is that hypocritical?  In one instance you obviously live with and know the persons using the facilities in your house, its an entirely different scenario in public facilities, which are rarely pleasant places to be, although perhaps you allow random people to turn up and use the facilities in your home?

He's so full of shit. Doesn't really get his brain into gear before he posts. And doesn't read the posts properly before he posts.

Eilzel wrote:

Tommy Monk wrote:


I was talking about women in the gents, and about women dressed as men in the gents... It is some women here who are objecting to men being in the ladies toilets... although I don't see you saying anything about how 'not everyone attracted to women wants to catch a look at every dirty pissing cvnt they can'...!


But we all know too well that gents public toilets have long been a dodgy place to go because of the widespread lurking of dirty homosexuals in those places... and which is why most of the public toilets have been closed down now... with those remaining required to have full time attendants to keep the scum bags out!!!

But you do seem to think people, women or gay men, will try to catch an eyeful when sharing a toilet with you. Which is pretty disgusting tbh. Is that what you'd be doing if you got the chance?

You have to admit it does happen. Not very often but enough to make people somewhat wary. Some dirty sod was repeatedly drilling a hole in the toilet cubicles in our local supermarket. And you can't deny that public toilets have a rep for being dens of sexual iniquity for certain types. My ex was a policeman, and worked the city centre in Manchester. Oxford Road toilets was notorious for gay men to have sex. So much so that they would roll the police van down to the toilets in the dark with the lights out, wait, turn on the blue flashing lights and watch all these men swarm out.

HoratioTarr wrote:

Eilzel wrote:

Tommy Monk wrote:


I was talking about women in the gents, and about women dressed as men in the gents... It is some women here who are objecting to men being in the ladies toilets... although I don't see you saying anything about how 'not everyone attracted to women wants to catch a look at every dirty pissing cvnt they can'...!


But we all know too well that gents public toilets have long been a dodgy place to go because of the widespread lurking of dirty homosexuals in those places... and which is why most of the public toilets have been closed down now... with those remaining required to have full time attendants to keep the scum bags out!!!

But you do seem to think people, women or gay men, will try to catch an eyeful when sharing a toilet with you. Which is pretty disgusting tbh. Is that what you'd be doing if you got the chance?

You have to admit it does happen.   Not very often but enough to make people somewhat wary.   Some dirty sod was repeatedly drilling a hole in the toilet cubicles in our local supermarket.   And you can't deny that public toilets have a rep for being dens of sexual iniquity for certain types.   My ex was a policeman, and worked the city centre in Manchester.   Oxford Road toilets was notorious for gay men to have sex.  So much so that they would roll the police van down to the toilets in the dark with the lights out, wait,  turn on the blue flashing lights and watch all these men swarm out.  

Of course that happens, I didn't acknowledge that part of tommy's post, since it was just an obvious attempt to have a go at gay people.

So you ignore the truth... and act like the one telling it is doing wrong...!?


Ok...