Household tax bills need to rise by £2,000 a year to save the NHS and help it reach its waiting time targets, economists warn

First topic message reminder :

[*]Institute for Fiscal Studies warns tax will have to rise for NHS to keep running 
[*]It warns spending on healthcare will have to increase by 3.3% over next 15 years
[*]Ageing population, more complex illnesses and rising cost of drugs are to blame


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5764763/UK-households-forced-pay-2-000-extra-tax-year-save-NHS.html#ixzz5GORnueTm 
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As I keep saying, throwing money continually at a problem. Is not going to solve that problem
What we need to do is adopt a far better system, like Canada, Australia etc

No... it is up to you to show credible facts to back up your link...!!!


Not for me to waste my time disproving your reems of spurious waffle!!!

Tommy Monk wrote:No... it is up to you to show credible facts to back up your link...!!!


Not for me to waste my time disproving your reems of spurious waffle!!!

Hilarious.

So you have nothing then to discount the facts presented to you

The costs to the NHS from foreigners who are not entitled, are widely reported...


Plus we don't get reimbursed by other EU countries for the costs of treating EU nationals either...!!!

Tommy Monk wrote:The costs to the NHS from foreigners who are not entitled, are widely reported...


Plus we don't get reimbursed by other EU countries for the costs of treating EU nationals either...!!!

It is widely reported Tommy and amounts to a few million.

What is your point?

No... stop lying!!!


It is billions Dodge!!!


Not 'a few million' at all!!!

Tommy Monk wrote:No... stop lying!!!


It is billions Dodge!!!


Not 'a few million' at all!!!

2 billion apparently.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/849324/nhs-health-tourism-2bn-year-Dr-Meirion-Thomas

And does that include the cost of treating EU nationals here, and the money we never get from their govts that they are supposed to pay us...?

Tommy Monk wrote:No... stop lying!!!


It is billions Dodge!!!


Not 'a few million' at all!!!

Really?

Are you goibng to continue to claim something, in the hope people might actually start to bvelieve your bollocks

I will askl again

Post evidence for your claims

The amount, is no more than a few million, which is peanuts with the NHS budget

Idiots like you are easily exposed for the bollocks you promote

So again, post up the evidence or continue to have me ridicule your studidity

Didge wrote:

Tommy Monk wrote:No... stop lying!!!


It is billions Dodge!!!


Not 'a few million' at all!!!

Really?

Are you goibng to continue to claim something, in the hope people might actually start to bvelieve your bollocks

I will askl again

Post evidence for your claims

The amount, is no more than a few million, which is peanuts with the NHS budget

Idiots like you are easily exposed for the bollocks you promote

So again, post up the evidence or continue to have me ridicule your studidity

Posted by HT earlier...


2 billion apparently.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/849324/nhs-health-tourism-2bn-year-Dr-Meirion-Thomas

Tommy Monk wrote:

Didge wrote:


Really?

Are you goibng to continue to claim something, in the hope people might actually start to bvelieve your bollocks

I will askl again

Post evidence for your claims

The amount, is no more than a few million, which is peanuts with the NHS budget

Idiots like you are easily exposed for the bollocks you promote

So again, post up the evidence or continue to have me ridicule your studidity

Posted by HT earlier...


2 billion apparently.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/849324/nhs-health-tourism-2bn-year-Dr-Meirion-Thomas

Priceless

Yes this claim was dealt within my link Tommy

Did you read it?

I love you Tommy, I want to rub melted butter down your chest.....

It seems no one really knows, the government estimate anything from £100 million to £300 million,so its probably a lot more, it may be a drop in the ocean for some people but for others, like someone needing expensive cancer drugs and such it could be the difference between life and death. If we are so strapped fo cash to fund the NHS then every penny or every million pound should count.

£2 billion  ???

Roughly the cost of 3 or 4 new lead-in jet fighters for the RAF..

Or re-carpeting Buckingham Palace.

How much would the British guvm'nt save if they abolished the antiquated and undemocratic 'House of Lords' and replaced it with a "Senate" like chamber with elected rep's, banned from outside work and commercial lobbying, for the duration..

Vintage wrote:It seems no one really knows, the government estimate anything from £100 million to £300 million,so its probably a lot more, it may be a drop in the ocean for some people but for others, like someone needing expensive cancer drugs and such it could be the difference between life and death. If we are so strapped fo cash to fund the NHS then every penny or every million pound should count.

Its miniscule and again the point is, on just throwing money at bad, does not solve a problem. The NHS is thought to need billions more and this continuing to rise each year. So a couple of hundred million is not going to even effect that need. Hence its time we scrapped this ridiculous system. People just love to blame immigrants for when something goes wrong, when its the system. Itself which is not manageable. Health tourism is not the cause and need of more money for the NHS and I certainly do not begrude anyone free health and neither should anyone.

Woman came from Nigeria, stepped off the plane 9 months pregnant. Labour pains had already started. Taken to Hospital where she gave birth to twins? due to complications she and her Babies were serious ill and stayed in the Hospital for weeks. Cost to NHS,over £300,000. Flew back to Nigeria owing that money. Never repaid it !!

nicko wrote:Woman came from Nigeria, stepped off the plane 9 months pregnant.  Labour pains had already started. Taken to Hospital where she gave birth to twins? due to complications she and her Babies were serious ill and stayed in the Hospital for weeks. Cost to NHS,over £300,000. Flew back to Nigeria owing that money.  Never repaid it !!

So what

I think the well being of mother and child is more important than the money, dont you?

That rather depends on who it impacts on though, the funding for the NHS is not infinite, no country that has a health system that isn't by direct payment has a certain fund for the use of its citizens and in an emergency to treat anyone that comes along, its a bit different when people plan to go to a country specifically to get treatment, knowing they will be charged for it and leaving without paying. Would you be happy to have a newborn grandchild of yours, which needed treatment to be taken to the other end of the country, if you are lucky that is, because someone like the Nigerian woman had deliberately come to this country and taken up the only neo natal bed left in your health area, especially as she and her husband are apparently well off. Many countries ask about your ability to pay or whether you have the EU Card or travel insurance before they begin to treat you It would be nice if life was perfect. Living in a fantasy doesn't help.

Vintage wrote:That rather depends on who it impacts on though, the funding for the NHS is not infinite, no country that has a health system that isn't by direct payment has a certain fund for the use of its citizens and in an emergency to treat anyone that comes along, its a bit different when people plan to go to a country specifically to get treatment, knowing they will be charged for it and leaving without paying. Would you be happy to have a newborn grandchild of yours, which needed treatment to be taken to the other end of the country, if you are lucky that is, because someone like the Nigerian woman had deliberately come to this country and taken up the only neo natal bed left in your health area, especially as she and her husband are apparently well off.  Many countries ask about your ability to pay or whether you have the EU Card or travel insurance before they begin to treat you It would be nice if life was perfect. Living in a fantasy doesn't help.

Again so what and who would blame her for doing so, when she did have complications
So I do not care that they have not paid and nobody lost their lives over them not paying and nobody never lost out on a hospital place for them. The arguments you present are absurd and unrealistic. Blatntly ignoring the problems of the NHS itself

Again people poorly think the problems of the NHS are due to health trourism and again for the hundredth time, that is nothing but smoke screens to the actual many problems. For goodness sake, if it was not for immigrants the NHS would not function and with an elderly population. This is only going to get worse. So harping on about health tourism is not going to change the growing problems the NHS face is it?

So how about you stop looking to poorly blame immigrants and again I do not care that some have come here and received good health care. As I did not realise it is now a crime to medically help people free of charge. As it should be for the worlds population.

Good luck to them if they did get for free.

What if they are taking up a bed that someone else needs and have paid for ?

NHS = National health service... paid for by the national people of UK, and for use by the national people of UK...


Not for the rest of the worlds people to come and abuse!!!

The arguments you present are absurd and unrealistic.
That's rich coming from you, who seems to think the entire world can turn up in the UK and we can handle it all if we weren't so zenophobic and racist.
Now you want everyone to believe the NHS is a bottomless pit that working people in this country should shut up and fund for the benefit of others.
You are in fantasy land with your arguments
Where did I say that was the only problem with the NHS?
What has immigrants working in the NHS got to do with the question?
Now, lets take a leaf out of your book, you appear to know what ails the NHS so I ask again what is your favoured solution?

Vintage wrote:The arguments you present are absurd and unrealistic.
That's rich coming from you, who seems to think the entire world can turn up in the UK and we can handle it all if we weren't so zenophobic and racist.
Now you want everyone to believe the NHS is a bottomless pit that working people in this country should shut up and fund for the benefit of others.
You are in fantasy land with your arguments
Where did I say that was the only problem with the NHS?
What has immigrants working in the NHS got to do with the question?
Now, lets take a leaf out of your book, you appear to know what ails the NHS so I ask again what is your favoured solution?

Well your arguments are

Prove to me how anyone was effected by this woman seeking a country to have a child?

Which good thing she did, as she had complications

You throw in strawman arguments claiming a what if, when no if's even happened
So we lost some moeny to helping a woman and a new born baby. I think they matter than the cost of their medical bills

Well you keep arguing about health tourism, as if this is the only problem

I mean have many posts have there been on this

What is my solution

Scrap the NHS and create a much better system, which is still free on the point of entry

How many times do I need to tell you this?

Seriously?

Well for a start I didn't say anyone was actually disadvantaged by what this woman did, given the situation though, I'm sure there's a good change it caused some delays for other patients.
We had a family here recently whose baby needed special care in a neo natal unit, all available beds were full in our area and in an ever expanding geographical area as well. The baby was eventually airlifted to Leeds, the parents had to get there however they could, friends and family supported them monetarily while they stayed with the child. Whether any of the beds were taken by the child of a health tourist I couldn't say, even if not there was still a problem to find a bed, it was only that another child was deemed well enough to be moved that one was found.
You'll have to tell me again because all you say is create a much better system free at point of entry - what does that mean? Sounds like the NHS. Will it be a sytem where you have to pay if treatment is successful maybe, and if not you get a free funeral perhaps? We discussed the types of health care schemes there are which naturally you refused to acknowedge, so what's your solution, you of all people must have a solution (even to all the world's ills).

Obviously if people who are not entitled are taking money away fro the NHS by way of running up thousands of pounds of debt and not repayng it, they ARE putting people who are entitled to the services the NHS offers at a disadvantage.
Those thousands run into millions, then billions, between 2 and 3 billion a year it has been estimated.

If anyone cant see that they are either thick or deliberately missing the point for some strange reason.

Maybe if they have a child who is desperately in need of an operation with no available equipment, or a partner needing drugs the NHS cant afford, or an aged relative left in a hospital corridor to die because a bed isn't available....maybe that would concentrate the mind more.

Nail on head Syl !

Vintage wrote:Well for a start I didn't say anyone was actually disadvantaged by what this woman did, given the situation though, I'm sure there's a good change it caused some delays for other patients.

You'll have to tell me again because all you say is create a much better system free at point of entry - what does that mean? Sounds like the NHS. Will it be a sytem where you have to pay if treatment is successful maybe, and if not you get a free funeral perhaps? We discussed the types of health care schemes there are which naturally you refused to acknowedge, so what's your solution, you of all people must have a solution (even to all the world's ills).

How do you now there is a good chance it caused delays to patients, in the birthing wing of that hospital

You are just second guessing

I have told you that we need to adopt a better system that already works and have given examples

Many of the European systems are far better for a start

What you need to do is actually look at these systems

That would be a start, before engaging futher.

Syl wrote:Obviously if people who are not entitled are taking money away fro the NHS by way of running up thousands of pounds of debt and not repayng it, they ARE putting people who are entitled to the services the NHS offers at a disadvantage.
Those thousands run into millions, then billions, between 2 and 3 billion a year it has been estimated.

If anyone cant see that they are either thick or deliberately missing the point for some strange reason.

Maybe if they have a child who is desperately in need of an operation with no available equipment, or a partner needing drugs the NHS cant afford, or an aged relative left in a hospital corridor to die because a bed isn't available....maybe that would concentrate the mind more.

Its not estimated at 2 or 3 billion and that is still miniscule for the NHS budget

If you cannot see how actually looking at the evidence provided by full fact, then those people are thick, period

Again people who argue on geography, when people need medical care, clearly think this should be some think for only the privildged and that is ethically wrong

Again the amount is no more than a couple of hundred million and using articles which are anti-immigrants, again proves my point that people do want to use immigrants as a stick to beat with. On a system that has been failing for years. The amount of people who do not pay, would nolt effect the waiting times, they would still be treated in this country. The glaring point you seem to miss. The reason it is failing is its poorly managed and its just more money after bad. As we are having countless patients having to wait and this is more to the rising elderly population. As they are more susceptible to illness.

Fullfact is not a credible source of fact...

It’s correct that the estimated cost of health tourism is up to £300 million a year. Recovering all these costs will make only a small dent in the overall funding gap the NHS faces.

‘Health tourism’ usually refers to people who deliberately come to the UK to use NHS services they’re not entitled to for free, and people who take advantage of the system by frequently visiting the UK to use GP services and get prescriptions. The exact definitions can vary.

David Dimbleby is talking about estimates from a few years ago that suggested a range of £100-£300 million as the cost of deliberate health tourism, although the estimates are uncertain.

As Maajid Nawaz says, recovering all of these costs isn’t going to plug the funding gap the NHS is facing.

In 2013, NHS England said it faced a funding gap of £30 billion a year by the end of the decade. The government is putting in extra funds to cover some of that gap, although experts doubt there is enough money being committed to deal with it adequately.

The estimated costs of health tourism are about 0.3% of health spending on specific services, so savings in this area alone will make a relatively small difference.

It’s also not a simple matter to recover all the money. David Dimbleby also referred to a report out this week from the Public Accounts Committee which expressed concern over the systems the government had in place..

Part of the problem is identifying who isn’t entitled to free care and needs to be charged. The committee reported that in 2012/13, the NHS charged 65% of the amounts it could have charged to people from outside Europe and 16% of what it could have charged from those within.

https://fullfact.org/health/health-tourism-savings-wont-plug-hole-nhs-funding/

Tommy Monk wrote:

Fullfact is not a credible source of fact...

LEAST BIASED
These sources have minimal bias and use very few loaded words (wording that attempts to influence an audience by using appeal to emotion or stereotypes). The reporting is factual and usually sourced. These are the most credible media sources.

Factual Reporting: VERY HIGH

Notes: Full Fact is an independent fact checking organization based in the UK which aims to “promote accuracy in public debate”, launched in 2009. Full Fact is a very well sourced, thorough fact checker. We consider them to be a top fact checker in the genre with the likes of Politifact and Factcheck.org. MBFC endorses Full Fact as a highly credible fact checker.

https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/full-fact-uk/

It has absolutely nothing to do with beating immigrants with a stick...if anyone needs emergency care in this country they will get it, but why should people who have paid into the system for many years be denied medical care because money is frittered away on people who are not entitled?
Obviously health tourism isn't the only way money is wasted, but for you to say up to three billion of NHS money is misicule.... is ridiculous.

Syl wrote:It has absolutely nothing to do with beating immigrants with a stick...if anyone needs emergency care in this country they will get it, but why should people who have paid into the system for many years be denied medical care because money is frittered away on people who are not entitled?
Obviously health tourism isn't the only way money is wasted, but for you to say up to three billion of NHS money is misicule.... is ridiculous.

Again you are not grasping the point. The NHS will help anyone in need of medical care. They dont ask for money up front because that can and would endanger lives. Some mecial costs are high and when people need medical care, the view is to help anyone here in this country

Its not 3 billion, its 300 million, showing again you believe what you want to believe and again is not what is causing the problems to the NHS. Its being used as a stick to beat foreigners with and as seen very badly so.
3 billions is miniscule in the amount of billions needed for the NHS.

So if people are being denied medical care, its because the system is bursting at the seems and cannot cope. We have a mass lack of doctors and nurses and those working and becoming increasing burnt out. Again by 2050, a quarter of the population will be over 65 and thus a vast increase in the amount of people susuceptible to illness. Do you really think that getting back 300 million a year is going to cope with that and the billions actually needed? Seriously?

Fullfact getting a pat on the back by some other spurious web site, is not a credible endorsement either...!


You really do post some nonsense on here didge...!!!

Have a read Syl

http://theconversation.com/shortage-of-nurses-in-uk-is-affecting-patient-care-and-threatening-lives-89734

Tommy Monk wrote:

Fullfact getting a pat on the back by some other spurious web site, is not a credible endorsement either...!


You really do post some nonsense on here didge...!!!

lol so again Tommy surpassess the stupid test



He claims its not credible and cannot refute the evidence found on the two links I presented

They have plenty of links to back theirs up and you cannot refute them

That means, again, all you can do is make bullshit claims

At least others claim their credability.

Didge you ought to read and understand what people write (same old problem it seems).

Vintage wrote:Didge you ought to read and understand what people write (same old problem it seems).

The only same problem, is you deflecting and talking about me

Night

I thought the idea was that people paid into the NHS and then citizens could benefit. I didn't think it was for anyone to come here and use it without paying a penny.

Didge wrote:

Vintage wrote:Didge you ought to read and understand what people write (same old problem it seems).

The only same problem, is you deflecting and talking about me

Night

Oh don't be shy, you love it when someone talks about you.


https://publishing.rcseng.ac.uk/doi/full/10.1308/rcsbull.2017.176

if anyone is interested, a report by a surgeon at the Royal Marsden Hospital.

"The system is bursting at the seams and cannot cope" ! and why is that ? Because there are too many people in the Country and some want to let more in !!!!!

1990 the population was 55 million... today it is about 65 million...

With overwhelming vast majority coming in AFTER Labour opened the floodgates in 1997

Tommy Monk wrote:With overwhelming vast majority coming in AFTER Labour opened the floodgates in 1997

I doubt that.

And we are back to Adults teaching children to share, but as adults, telling others they cannot share a land mass that they do not even own themselves.

When will people learn, that they function due to other nations being able to share their resources with this country?

Quill... you can say you doubt whatever you want... but it doesn't disprove the facts...!!!


And dodge... fuk off with your bullshit about 'sharing'... we already do that... it's called TRADE!!!


We already have people here from all over the world... we don't want any more mass immigration flooding the country!!!


There's a whole world out there for everyone else to live in... and they all have their own countrires for themselves...!!!

There you go, Tommy being so nice in debate, but I guess that is okay to some

The point on sharing is that you share everything and with land, you do not own. Is like a toddler in nursery claiming a toy not theirs, is theirs and only theirs to play with.

You are just like the toddler, claiming ownership to something that is not yours.

Look at your arguments. When the world has too many people in the world, but you want to segregate yourself from that and not want to have this as your issue. The world is our issue, as we all live here

Why are you so obsessed with trying to flood this country with even more foreigners dodge...?

Tommy Monk wrote:


Why are you so obsessed with trying to flood this country with even more foreigners dodge...?

Where did I say I wanted to flood this country?

Cathy Newman alert

I said and have been quite specific in that solving the problem of mass immigration. Is about helping those countriess people are basically fleeing from. Into places that are places that have human and equal rights for them. Helping combat the poverty in these countries. In other words, people would have no need to leave, if they have a better quality of life. This would dramatically reduce the need for many people to migrate and would only be based around life choices, not a necessity.

The point is you think nobody should be allowed to share land, you do not even own. It shows the lessons you never learnt growing up, as most people are taught to share.

The people of those countries need to pull their fingers out and do it themselves first and foremost... we (and other countries) already do more than enough to help!!!


So you think there should be limits on immigration here didge...?


As do I, and the overwhelming vast majority of UK public!!!


So stop whining like a child that has already had too much cake but wants even more...!!!


It is a diet that is needed, out with the junk food, and lose a load of the unnecessary dead weight!!!

Tommy Monk wrote:The people of those countries need to pull their fingers out and do it themselves first and foremost... we (and other countries) already do more than enough to help!!!
So you think there should be limits on immigration here didge...?
As do I, and the overwhelming vast majority of UK public!!!
So stop whining like a child that has already had too much cake but wants even more...!!!
It is a diet that is needed, out with the junk food, and lose a load of the unnecessary dead weight!!!

So when we have been in recession, we need to pull our finger out and not borrow millions from other nations to bale us out then?

How only innovative people, unselfish like you have ensure they passed on their wisdom through the ages to ensure people became more educated and have the abilities in life to succeed?

They never should have done that then to you?

It seems to me, you act nothing more like than a spoilt brat. Not ever appreciating what you were lucky to be born into and why we should always to look to help the world. As its definately everyones problem.

What do you think would happen if the economy went bust here. People would be looking to the world for help and that is what you ffail to grasp, because you are utterly selfish.

You never learnt this basic concept, whilst growing up as a kid

To be fair, didn’t didge used to work in the NHS?
Wouldn’t he actually have a little more knowledge in this area?

Apologies if I got that wrong.