If god is all powerful why does he allow sin?

smelly_bandit wrote:

Fuzzy Zack wrote:

No, you're making a common miskate.

God's will comes from the fact he's given you the gifts of life and the ability to think and move - all of which can be taken away at an instant and without any control from you (ie not your freewill).

While you are in possession of these gifts, God requires you to 'make the right choice' and follow the straight path.

And if for some incredibly ignorant reason you think that's un-Islamic, try reading the first chapter of the Quran. Lol!   

that is a markedly differently argument to the one you adopted on FLAP

and it is also against the teachings of the qur'an which is littered with mumbo jumbo about how Allah alone makes all things happen - including believing in him and not believing in him

6:125        
Those whom Allah (in His Plan) willeth to guide [yahdeehi] He openeth their breast to Islam; those whom He willeth to leave straying [youthillahoo] He maketh their breast close and constricted as if they had to climb up to the skies: thus doth Allah (heap) the penalty on those who refuse to believe….

14: 27        
Allah will establish in strength those who believe with the Word that stands firm in this world and in the Hereafter; but Allah will lead astray [youthillou] those who do wrong: Allah doeth what He willeth.

57:22
No misfortune can happen on earth or in your souls but is recorded in a decree before We bring it into existence:

Al-Tirmidhi Hadith
Hadith 96        Narrated byAbdullah ibn Amr
Allah's Messenger (peace be upon him)  went out and he had in his hand two books. He said: Do you know what these two books are? We said: Allah's Messenger, we do not know but only that you inform us.

Thereupon he said: This one which my right hand possesses is a Book from the Lord of the worlds. It contains the names of the inmates of Paradise and the name of their forefathers and those of their tribes. It is most exhaustive and nothing will be added to it nor anything eliminated from it up to eternity.

He then said: This one in my left  hand is a Book from the Lord of the worlds. It contains the names of the denizens of Hell and the names of their forefathers and their tribes. It is also exhaustive to the end and nothing will be added to it nor anything will be eliminated from it.

The Companions said: Allah's Messenger, (if this is the case) then where lies the use of doing a deed if the affair is already decided?

Thereupon he said: Stick to the right course and remain as close to it as possible for one who is to be inmate of Paradise would end his life by an act befitting the inmates of Paradise, no matter what he may have done and for one who is the denizen of Hell, his deed would end on that which is a deed of the denizens of Hell, no matter what he may have done (before). Allah's Messenger (peace be upon him) then threw the books and making a gesture with his hand said: Allah has made a decision about His servants (a section will be in Paradise and a section in the blaze).  

Transmitted by Tirmidhi.

heavenly father wrote:

Fuzzy Zack wrote:

By the way, I'm glad you've admitted the Bible is not complete. Perhaps you're not that arrogant after all.

i proved the bible is complete..lol didgerytwo... :D 

Fuzzy Zack wrote:

heavenly father wrote:

i proved the bible is complete..lol didgerytwo... :D 

Unless you can tell me which chapter and verse in the Bible includes that information that was too hard to bear, then you've proved the Bible is incomplete

Fuzzy Zack wrote:

smelly_bandit wrote:

that is a markedly differently argument to the one you adopted on FLAP

and it is also against the teachings of the qur'an which is littered with mumbo jumbo about how Allah alone makes all things happen - including believing in him and not believing in him

6:125        
Those whom Allah (in His Plan) willeth to guide [yahdeehi] He openeth their breast to Islam; those whom He willeth to leave straying [youthillahoo] He maketh their breast close and constricted as if they had to climb up to the skies: thus doth Allah (heap) the penalty on those who refuse to believe….

14: 27        
Allah will establish in strength those who believe with the Word that stands firm in this world and in the Hereafter; but Allah will lead astray [youthillou] those who do wrong: Allah doeth what He willeth.

57:22
No misfortune can happen on earth or in your souls but is recorded in a decree before We bring it into existence:

Al-Tirmidhi Hadith
Hadith 96        Narrated byAbdullah ibn Amr
Allah's Messenger (peace be upon him)  went out and he had in his hand two books. He said: Do you know what these two books are? We said: Allah's Messenger, we do not know but only that you inform us.

Thereupon he said: This one which my right hand possesses is a Book from the Lord of the worlds. It contains the names of the inmates of Paradise and the name of their forefathers and those of their tribes. It is most exhaustive and nothing will be added to it nor anything eliminated from it up to eternity.

He then said: This one in my left  hand is a Book from the Lord of the worlds. It contains the names of the denizens of Hell and the names of their forefathers and their tribes. It is also exhaustive to the end and nothing will be added to it nor anything will be eliminated from it.

The Companions said: Allah's Messenger, (if this is the case) then where lies the use of doing a deed if the affair is already decided?

Thereupon he said: Stick to the right course and remain as close to it as possible for one who is to be inmate of Paradise would end his life by an act befitting the inmates of Paradise, no matter what he may have done and for one who is the denizen of Hell, his deed would end on that which is a deed of the denizens of Hell, no matter what he may have done (before). Allah's Messenger (peace be upon him) then threw the books and making a gesture with his hand said: Allah has made a decision about His servants (a section will be in Paradise and a section in the blaze).  

Transmitted by Tirmidhi.

Lol! I said Quran chapter 1, you muppet.

Not one line each from chapters 6, 15 and 57.

Come and copy and paste Chapter 1 - all of it.

heavenly father wrote:

Fuzzy Zack wrote:

Unless you can tell me which chapter and verse in the Bible includes that information that was too hard to bear, then you've proved the Bible is incomplete

if you remember you quoted a passage that you thought said the bible was incomlete and I proved you wrong... :D 

smelly_bandit wrote:

Fuzzy Zack wrote:

Lol! I said Quran chapter 1, you muppet.

Not one line each from chapters 6, 15 and 57.

Come and copy and paste Chapter 1 - all of it.

ive provided you with several examples of predestination from different sections of the Qur'an AND one of the hadith to support it


but here it is just for you

In the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.
Praise be to Allah, the Cherisher and Sustainer of the worlds;
Most Gracious, Most Merciful;
Master of the Day of Judgment.
Thee do we worship, and Thine aid we seek.
Show us the straight way,
The way of those on whom Thou hast bestowed Thy Grace, those whose (portion) is not wrath, and who go not astray.

nothing in there about free will

victorismyhero wrote:No Zack.....because god ALREADY knows your choices...surely that leaves only the illusion of free will. either that or god can be surprised, in which case he isnt omniscient.

Fuzzy Zack wrote:

victorismyhero wrote:No Zack.....because god ALREADY knows your choices...surely that leaves only the illusion of free will. either that or god can be surprised, in which case he isnt omniscient.

That's not Islamic philosophy. As I said, you have no free will in Islam, just choice. If you're using choice and will interchangeably, then you're failing to grasp what I'm saying.

If I know your future but don't tell you, then you are free to live your life as you would have deemed fit.

Telling you, takes away your freedom to choose honestly. That is what God is testing.

victorismyhero wrote:

Fuzzy Zack wrote:

That's not Islamic philosophy. As I said, you have no free will in Islam, just choice. If you're using choice and will interchangeably, then you're failing to grasp what I'm saying.

If I know your future but don't tell you, then you are free to live your life as you would have deemed fit.

Telling you, takes away your freedom to choose honestly. That is what God is testing.

in which case god is a sadist...he creates a soul which he knows will sin then frys it for ever ???

victorismyhero wrote:moreover...if you have no free will, then your "choices" are fixed...you cannot "choose" freely since the choice you make is predetermined....If you are "born to sin then you will sin, no choice in the matter

victorismyhero wrote:I think you fail to grasp the point zack....

IF you have no free will, then your actions have already been predetermined, you are like a programmed robot and you simply cannot make a truely "free" choice.

secondly theres no "blaming god" in that respect...BUT he already knows what your choices will be for good or ill.

SO, if you choose ill then god knows you would have done that even before you were created,,,
therefor for him to "choose to create" you , knowing that he will then eventually fry you is NOT the actions of a kind and loving god...better that he never created you...

Fuzzy Zack wrote:

victorismyhero wrote:I think you fail to grasp the point zack....

IF you have no free will, then your actions have already been predetermined, you are like a programmed robot and you simply cannot make a truely "free" choice.

secondly theres no "blaming god" in that respect...BUT he already knows what your choices will be for good or ill.

SO, if you choose ill then god knows you would have done that even before you were created,,,
therefor for him to "choose to create" you , knowing that he will then eventually fry you is NOT the actions of a kind and loving god...better that he never created you...

Is anyone or God forcing you to act right now?

He knows what you're going to do - but he still gives you the freedom to choose.

If you didn't have that freedom, you would not be human. But an automaton (or angel).

What you would like to do is hand over the responsibility of your actions just because God knew what you were going to do. Don't you know how ridiculously childish that sounds?

God says, man up! No one forced you either way.

Eilzel wrote:

Fuzzy Zack wrote:

Is anyone or God forcing you to act right now?

He knows what you're going to do - but he still gives you the freedom to choose.

If you didn't have that freedom, you would not be human. But an automaton (or angel).

What you would like to do is hand over the responsibility of your actions just because God knew what you were going to do. Don't you know how ridiculously childish that sounds?

God says, man up! No one forced you either way.

IT is still sadistic as Victor says. Ok so we 'choose' our path you say- but God already knows the path you will choose; like he is watching a rerun over and over of a film he made- he knows how it ends, he knows millions will burn in hell, and simply allows us to think we are making our own spontaneous choice- when in fact he himself designed those millions to fail and burn- that is as sadistic an idea as ever I heard...

Fuzzy Zack wrote:

Eilzel wrote:

IT is still sadistic as Victor says. Ok so we 'choose' our path you say- but God already knows the path you will choose; like he is watching a rerun over and over of a film he made- he knows how it ends, he knows millions will burn in hell, and simply allows us to think we are making our own spontaneous choice- when in fact he himself designed those millions to fail and burn- that is as sadistic an idea as ever I heard...

There's a critical error in your film analogy. God made the film and the video player. But you make the content, as far as your actions are concerned.

What's so sadistic about that? Would you rather be forced or pre-programmed to act a certain way? Do you want to give away your ability to act independently? That's sounds like a prison or communism. Surely that is sadistic.

Fuzzy Zack wrote:

Eilzel wrote:

IT is still sadistic as Victor says. Ok so we 'choose' our path you say- but God already knows the path you will choose; like he is watching a rerun over and over of a film he made- he knows how it ends, he knows millions will burn in hell, and simply allows us to think we are making our own spontaneous choice- when in fact he himself designed those millions to fail and burn- that is as sadistic an idea as ever I heard...

There's a critical error in your film analogy. God made the film and the video player. But you make the content, as far as your actions are concerned.

What's so sadistic about that? Would you rather be forced or pre-programmed to act a certain way? Do you want to give away your ability to act independently? That's sounds like a prison or communism. Surely that is sadistic.

victorismyhero wrote:perhaps not, but he then has no right to fry me if i choose wrong....he made me, and he knew what i would do...

thats like inviting some one to a game and not "quite" explaining  the rules..
plus you are invoking a circular argument here...

there is no logic in what you say  

you can do good or ill...your choice
do good go to paradise
do ill go to hell (or whatever)
BUT god knows what you will do
therefore whatever you do is already fixed, you cannot change it (because to do so would "surprise" god and deny his omniscience)
therefore you actually have NO choice since at each moment of choice you cannot do other than what "god knows you will do" (this is not "forcing" as in standing over someone with a sharp pointy instrument, more you are helpless in your choice because of the above statement)

This problem ONLY arises because god is omniscient what he sees will be WILL be...no matter what. The fact he is outside of space and time is irrelevant. The moment you invoke omniscience AND creating souls in the same consideration, you HAVE to raise the question of gods own morality.

IF you have free choice AND you have the possibility of choosing ill AND you have a god that KNOWS what you will do, then any talk of punishment by that god, makes a mockery of a "loving god"
IF this god "loved " his creations so much he would NOT dish out infinite punishment for finite "bad choices" OR he would not create those souls he knew ahead of time to be "pre damned"

Fuzzy Zack wrote:

victorismyhero wrote:perhaps not, but he then has no right to fry me if i choose wrong....he made me, and he knew what i would do...

thats like inviting some one to a game and not "quite" explaining  the rules..
plus you are invoking a circular argument here...

there is no logic in what you say  

you can do good or ill...your choice
do good go to paradise
do ill go to hell (or whatever)
BUT god knows what you will do
therefore whatever you do is already fixed, you cannot change it (because to do so would "surprise" god and deny his omniscience)
therefore you actually have NO choice since at each moment of choice you cannot do other than what "god knows you will do" (this is not "forcing" as in standing over someone with a sharp pointy instrument, more you are helpless in your choice because of the above statement)

This problem ONLY arises because god is omniscient what he sees will be WILL be...no matter what. The fact he is outside of space and time is irrelevant. The moment you invoke omniscience AND creating souls in the same consideration, you HAVE to raise the question of gods own morality.

IF you have free choice AND you have the possibility of choosing ill AND you have a god that KNOWS what you will do, then any talk of punishment by that god, makes a mockery of a "loving god"
IF this god "loved " his creations so much he would NOT dish out infinite punishment for finite "bad choices" OR he would not create those souls he knew ahead of time to be "pre damned"

Logic is an argument to expose the truth. Like I've said, why don't you analyse your actual life first before speculating fallaciously.

Does God force you to act in a certain way? It would be sadistic if he does but he quite clearly doesn't.

You are living in the forward arrow of time. God is not bound by space or time. You are being tested on the intention behind your choices without any foreknowledge.

Having foreknowledge means you can change your actions but that would not be an honest expression of yourself. God has given you the ability to express yourself honestly.  

It still sounds like yup would like to handover the responsibility of your actions. Imagine a child saying to their parent, "it's because the you raised me". Lol! That rational wouldn't was in a court of law, yet you expect the same argument to stand in the ultimate court. Does that sound logical to you?

Fuzzy Zack wrote:

victorismyhero wrote:perhaps not, but he then has no right to fry me if i choose wrong....he made me, and he knew what i would do...

thats like inviting some one to a game and not "quite" explaining  the rules..
plus you are invoking a circular argument here...

there is no logic in what you say  

you can do good or ill...your choice
do good go to paradise
do ill go to hell (or whatever)
BUT god knows what you will do
therefore whatever you do is already fixed, you cannot change it (because to do so would "surprise" god and deny his omniscience)
therefore you actually have NO choice since at each moment of choice you cannot do other than what "god knows you will do" (this is not "forcing" as in standing over someone with a sharp pointy instrument, more you are helpless in your choice because of the above statement)

This problem ONLY arises because god is omniscient what he sees will be WILL be...no matter what. The fact he is outside of space and time is irrelevant. The moment you invoke omniscience AND creating souls in the same consideration, you HAVE to raise the question of gods own morality.

IF you have free choice AND you have the possibility of choosing ill AND you have a god that KNOWS what you will do, then any talk of punishment by that god, makes a mockery of a "loving god"
IF this god "loved " his creations so much he would NOT dish out infinite punishment for finite "bad choices" OR he would not create those souls he knew ahead of time to be "pre damned"

Logic is an argument to expose the truth. Like I've said, why don't you analyse your actual life first before speculating fallaciously.

Does God force you to act in a certain way? It would be sadistic if he does but he quite clearly doesn't.

You are living in the forward arrow of time. God is not bound by space or time. You are being tested on the intention behind your choices without any foreknowledge.

Having foreknowledge means you can change your actions but that would not be an honest expression of yourself. God has given you the ability to express yourself honestly.  

It still sounds like yup would like to handover the responsibility of your actions. Imagine a child saying to their parent, "it's because the you raised me". Lol! That rational wouldn't was in a court of law, yet you expect the same argument to stand in the ultimate court. Does that sound logical to you?

Eilzel wrote:

Fuzzy Zack wrote:

There's a critical error in your film analogy. God made the film and the video player. But you make the content, as far as your actions are concerned.

What's so sadistic about that? Would you rather be forced or pre-programmed to act a certain way? Do you want to give away your ability to act independently? That's sounds like a prison or communism. Surely that is sadistic.

I don't want that no, but I don't face that contradiction in my view of how the world is. I am well aware of my own free will to make decisions (though science I am sure could explain certain impulses haha). However, as has been said, God makes us all, apparently with free will- but he knows exactly what we will do; therefore at the start of it all, in our original creation at the hands of God he must have made us to make certain choices.

To try to describe what I mean. God makes a man. He knows as he is making him that this man WILL murder one day. Therefore SOMETHING God did in making that man is or will impel him to murder. The man will go to hell and burn forever. God knew he would kill when he made him; therefore God made a killer who would burn in hell. Why?

Even if God is powerless to not make killers(?) at best he makes people with free will, knowing instantly whether they are going to be good or bad; and know they will burn. Which still has an element of coldness to it. He watches us as babies, watches a person turn to evil, watches them do evil and then opens the gates of hell obligingly  

PhilDidge wrote:

Fuzzy Zack wrote:

Logic is an argument to expose the truth. Like I've said, why don't you analyse your actual life first before speculating fallaciously.

Does God force you to act in a certain way? It would be sadistic if he does but he quite clearly doesn't.

You are living in the forward arrow of time. God is not bound by space or time. You are being tested on the intention behind your choices without any foreknowledge.

Having foreknowledge means you can change your actions but that would not be an honest expression of yourself. God has given you the ability to express yourself honestly.  

It still sounds like yup would like to handover the responsibility of your actions. Imagine a child saying to their parent, "it's because the you raised me". Lol! That rational wouldn't was in a court of law, yet you expect the same argument to stand in the ultimate court. Does that sound logical to you?

Again that is not even logical because now you are comparing parents to an all knowing deity, where parents do not even know how at times their child ill act, you are using then human actions to back an argument on an all knowing deity, sorry they do not even come close to being a comparison Zack.
You still cannot escape the undeniable point here which is how can people really have a choice if it has already been planned, because to know all future events would mean everything has been planned, that takes away any free will or action you have. What you thus think is you choosing would thus already have been planned in advance as to what you would do, because it is seen in advance, thus planned

Fuzzy Zack wrote:

PhilDidge wrote:


Again that is not even logical because now you are comparing parents to an all knowing deity, where parents do not even know how at times their child ill act, you are using then human actions to back an argument on an all knowing deity, sorry they do not even come close to being a comparison Zack.
You still cannot escape the undeniable point here which is how can people really have a choice if it has already been planned, because to know all future events would mean everything has been planned, that takes away any free will or action you have. What you thus think is you choosing would thus already have been planned in advance as to what you would do, because it is seen in advance, thus planned

I am using human action as an analogy so you can relate. All analogies fall down somewhere.

Again - nothing is planned. Just known. There's a fundamental difference.

Like I've said before, if I know you're future and tell you, you can change your action but that would take away your freedom to make an honest choice.

It's really that simple.

Eilzel wrote:

Fuzzy Zack wrote:

Logic is an argument to expose the truth. Like I've said, why don't you analyse your actual life first before speculating fallaciously.

Does God force you to act in a certain way? It would be sadistic if he does but he quite clearly doesn't.

You are living in the forward arrow of time. God is not bound by space or time. You are being tested on the intention behind your choices without any foreknowledge.

Having foreknowledge means you can change your actions but that would not be an honest expression of yourself. God has given you the ability to express yourself honestly.  

It still sounds like yup would like to handover the responsibility of your actions. Imagine a child saying to their parent, "it's because the you raised me". Lol! That rational wouldn't was in a court of law, yet you expect the same argument to stand in the ultimate court. Does that sound logical to you?

We don't want to hand over responsibility. The point is God knows the outcome. If the outcome is set at the moment of our creation then free choice becomes a farce. WE may not know the answer but GOD does- meaning that choice becomes an illusion, we will always go exactly as fate intends.

PhilDidge wrote:

Fuzzy Zack wrote:

I am using human action as an analogy so you can relate. All analogies fall down somewhere.

Again - nothing is planned. Just known. There's a fundamental difference.

Like I've said before, if I know you're future and tell you, you can change your action but that would take away your freedom to make an honest choice.

It's really that simple.

There is no difference Zack, how can something be known to happen and then not happen?

Do we know at some point the sun will die?
Yes, do we also know we at some point will die? Yes, do we have a choice in the matter?
No.
These are things we know will happen and yet cannot change they will happen can we?

If you have choice you would be able to change the future that is set

Fuzzy Zack wrote:

Eilzel wrote:

We don't want to hand over responsibility. The point is God knows the outcome. If the outcome is set at the moment of our creation then free choice becomes a farce. WE may not know the answer but GOD does- meaning that choice becomes an illusion, we will always go exactly as fate intends.

You will go the way your fate intended. Even. Physics has proved that using Einsteins equations.

I will say again: you are not judged on the outcome but your intention. You are in control of your intention. And if you didn't intend an action, you will not be judged - regardless of the outcome.

Just because I (or God) knows what you will intend in the future, does not take away your power to make that intention.

Fuzzy Zack wrote:

PhilDidge wrote:


There is no difference Zack, how can something be known to happen and then not happen?

Do we know at some point the sun will die?
Yes, do we also know we at some point will die? Yes, do we have a choice in the matter?
No.
These are things we know will happen and yet cannot change they will happen can we?

If you have choice you would be able to change the future that is set

Dude, of course there's a difference between being forced to act and knowing how someone will act.

If you can't get that basic difference, then I can't help you. Not sure even God can help you.   

God has the advantage of being outside the bounds of time. You don't and have to follow the arrow of time. But at no point has anyone or thing taken your ability to choose how to act. Have they?

Fuzzy Zack wrote:

smelly_bandit wrote:

ive provided you with several examples of predestination from different sections of the Qur'an AND one of the hadith to support it


but here it is just for you

In the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.
Praise be to Allah, the Cherisher and Sustainer of the worlds;
Most Gracious, Most Merciful;
Master of the Day of Judgment.
Thee do we worship, and Thine aid we seek.
Show us the straight way,
The way of those on whom Thou hast bestowed Thy Grace, those whose (portion) is not wrath, and who go not astray.

nothing in there about free will

Exactly. Hallelujah Smelly baby, I think you're getting it.

Free will belongs to God - ie he can 'show' you the straight path.

But you have to 'choose' to walk down that path or deviate. Hence you have free choice to commit sin or not.

PhilDidge wrote:Zack I doubt you are going to convince Eilzel Victor or myself, because logic shows such a view you are claiming is not logical. Fair enough it is your faith and you believe that and I respect that, but it has no logic to it what so ever to now make a view on intent, when if all is known, that intent is already programmed into you.

Fuzzy Zack wrote:

victorismyhero wrote:No Zack.....because god ALREADY knows your choices...surely that leaves only the illusion of free will. either that or god can be surprised, in which case he isnt omniscient.

That's not Islamic philosophy. As I said, you have no free will in Islam, just choice. If you're using choice and will interchangeably, then you're failing to grasp what I'm saying.

If I know your future but don't tell you, then you are free to live your life as you would have deemed fit.

Telling you, takes away your freedom to choose honestly. That is what God is testing.

Fuzzy Zack wrote:Good night.

Fuzzy Zack wrote:Why do atheists always bombard me with questions?

I'm not God.  :D 

Fuzzy Zack wrote:

PhilDidge wrote:Zack I doubt you are going to convince Eilzel Victor or myself, because logic shows such a view you are claiming is not logical. Fair enough it is your faith and you believe that and I respect that, but it has no logic to it what so ever to now make a view on intent, when if all is known, that intent is already programmed into you.

Like I said to Victor, logic is meant to represent real life. You surely admit nobody is making a choice for you? So how is intent preprogrammed?

What you're saying is that just because God or Mystic Meg (is she still alive?) knows what my intentions will be and how I will act, it is their fault for how I acted. Does that really sound logical to you?

Anyway - tbc tomorrow.

SEXY MAMA wrote:Its not weird at all.

Didge likes to debate and is intrigued by peoples belief.

Fuzzy Zack wrote:

victorismyhero wrote:No Zack.....because god ALREADY knows your choices...surely that leaves only the illusion of free will. either that or god can be surprised, in which case he isnt omniscient.

That's not Islamic philosophy. As I said, you have no free will in Islam, just choice. If you're using choice and will interchangeably, then you're failing to grasp what I'm saying.

If I know your future but don't tell you, then you are free to live your life as you would have deemed fit.

Telling you, takes away your freedom to choose honestly. That is what God is testing.

Eilzel wrote:

Fuzzy Zack wrote:

You will go the way your fate intended. Even. Physics has proved that using Einsteins equations.

I will say again: you are not judged on the outcome but your intention. You are in control of your intention. And if you didn't intend an action, you will not be judged - regardless of the outcome.

Just because I (or God) knows what you will intend in the future, does not take away your power to make that intention.

You are fuzzing the concepts fuzz

I don't believe in fate Zack; I do believe our brains are all individually 'wired' a certain way so that in that 'sense' we don't really have free will, we are at the whims of chemicals of the mind- but to all intents and purposes from a materialistic/atheistic view point, we do. Since there is no judge or heaven or hell it doesn't matter what our intention is after we are dead.

However a theist is faced with a problem. You say now it is intent that matters. And bad intent, is totally (from your pov) of the will of the individual. So a persons intent can condemn them to hell? But it matters not whether we talk of intent or actions- again God knows whether you go to hell or not from the off. Presumably 'hell' is an actual place (even if not material but spiritual) and Allah knows person X, who he made on X date (in Earth time) WILL go to hell. Talk of intentions or actions- that person was destined to burn before they were born- their actions AND intentions WILL lead them there, and Allah always knew they would.

veya_victaous wrote:

Eilzel wrote:

You are fuzzing the concepts fuzz  

I don't believe in fate Zack; I do believe our brains are all individually 'wired' a certain way so that in that 'sense' we don't really have free will, we are at the whims of chemicals of the mind- but to all intents and purposes from a materialistic/atheistic view point, we do. Since there is no judge or heaven or hell it doesn't matter what our intention is after we are dead.

However a theist is faced with a problem. You say now it is intent that matters. And bad intent, is totally (from your pov) of the will of the individual. So a persons intent can condemn them to hell? But it matters not whether we talk of intent or actions- again God knows whether you go to hell or not from the off. Presumably 'hell' is an actual place (even if not material but spiritual) and Allah knows person X, who he made on X date (in Earth time) WILL go to hell. Talk of intentions or actions- that person was destined to burn before they were born- their actions AND intentions WILL lead them there, and Allah always knew  they would.

Nope, most polytheists Do not believe the gods are omniscient, that issue is restricted to monotheists (and even then it is not an issue if you believe in a non-caring god).  Far more options in religion than just is there a god or not.  

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tengrism
Tengri is an example from Mongol/Turks of a non-caring god (the rainbow serpent is another) they exist because they exist their concerns are far beyond the comprehension of humans. We are to them, like Ants are to us.

veya_victaous wrote:

Fuzzy Zack wrote:

That's not Islamic philosophy. As I said, you have no free will in Islam, just choice. If you're using choice and will interchangeably, then you're failing to grasp what I'm saying.

If I know your future but don't tell you, then you are free to live your life as you would have deemed fit.

Telling you, takes away your freedom to choose honestly. That is what God is testing.

@Zack
NOPE omniscient means he KNOWS Already it is not about telling your future, He KNOWS your choice (indeed he MADE your choice) before you even knew a choice existed.  That what it means by ALL KNOWING, ALL POWERFUL GOD.

While the Koran is a better written text than the Bible it is still just a ridiculous. the idea of a monotheist deity that is ALL KNOWING and ALL POWERFUL is quite illogical.  

veya_victaous wrote:@Eilzel

I have no problem with believing there is 'something greater than ourselves', but IF someone is going to try and define it they better bloody well make sure it is right. So far none of the organised religions have done a good job... but they have all managed to promote corruption and paedophile. So, on Balance I propose to 'Ban the organising of Religion', let people believe whatever they want but do not let them preach it unless they can PROVE it is true.

Eilzel wrote:

veya_victaous wrote:@Eilzel

I have no problem with believing there is 'something greater than ourselves', but IF someone is going to try and define it they better bloody well make sure it is right. So far none of the organised religions have done a good job... but they have all managed to promote corruption and paedophile. So, on Balance I propose to 'Ban the organising of Religion', let people believe whatever they want but do not let them preach it unless they can PROVE it is true.

Well I don't agree on there being something higher than ourselves, I think it unlikely. But as you will agree that is very much a personal belief we all come to different conclusions.

I'd agree on the rest however