If god is all powerful why does he allow sin?

First topic message reminder :

Apparently homosexuality is a sin - if you put a certain spin on the bible texts.

Yet it is claimed god is all powerful.

If he is all powerful why did he create homosexuality?

If he is all powerful why does he refuse to help those who believe that interpretation of the bible when they beg him to help them change?

Surely the evidence is that if god does exist he is one sadistic bugger.

Yeah well I agree in those higher 'powers', but not concious, creative, loving, thinking, all seeing, timeless ones- certainly not one so egotistically It demands devotion and/or worship

veya_victaous wrote:@smelly
Umm it is presented in the order it was written. the worst stuff is all at the front when Mohammad was an Angry young man 'the cow' is one verse that particularly comes to mind for it's jew-hate, the middle is more about governance as it was written in middle age. The End is all about Peace and love as it is the writing of an old man content with his life.

I have not only read, I own copies of all these texts. My Koran is currently on lone to someone that was reading over my shoulder while I was writing the other day (I'm pretty sure in this thread). Mine is a Penguin Educational print which I know some Muslims suggest is not the most flattering translation, but it has good notes and I personally didn’t find it too bad.

Have you read the Iliad or Aeneid? Both are older texts and fantastically written, they are examples of GOOD texts from that time period. the Bible is terribly written because it has multiple Authors (that’s why different sections are named after the Different Authors ) it has paragraphs that just end(because someone has obviously edited it out) an sentences that are obviously inserted Centuries afterwards as they use different lingual and sentence structures than most of the bible and other texts from that time period. Plus now that we have recovered some Earlier Bibles those Sentences (indeed entire paragraphs) are not contained in them.

Wrong

The qur'an is arranged longest to shortest sura

Which means things that were revealed later in life can feature towards the beginning of the qur'an and visa versa

You're an idiot

Secondly the qur'an was only put into book form after muhhamad died

When you try and blag it at least rut to know what you're talking about

@smelly
you are wrong. I have the book and have read it, it definitely is not presented from shortest to longest or vice versa.
And the Bible wasn't put into book form until 300 years after Jesus died

http://www.daralislam.org/portals/0/Publications/TheQURANHowitwasRevealedandCompiled.pdf

This may be a good place to dispel some common misconceptions about the arrangement of the Qur’an. It is often said the order of the Qur’an is “roughly” in decreasing order of the size of the Surahs (except the first). It is true that most of the longest Surahs are in the beginning and most of the shortest are at the end. The longest Surah is the second one and has 486 Ayahs and the shortest (103, 108, and 110) are toward the end and have 3 Ayahs each. But, beyond this general observation, one can easily demonstrate a lack of order by size of the Surahs. After the 5th
Surah, the order by size breaks down. For example, the 6th Surah (with 165 Ayahs) is shorter, and not longer, than the 7th (with 206 Ayahs); the 8th (with 75 Ayahs) is shorter than the 9th(with 149 Ayahs); and the 15th (with 99 Ayahs) is shorter than the 16th (with 148 Ayahs). The reverse can be shown at the end of the Book. Surah 95 (with 8 Ayahs) is shorter, not longer, than Surah 96 (with 19 Ayahs) and Surah 103 (with 3 Ayahs) is shorter than Syrah 104 (with 9 Ayahs).

Obviously Muslims don't like my analysis as it show Mohammad to be Human and his teaching to be those of a human  :::grouch::  they believe;

In contrast with the above mentioned speculations, the Muslims believe that the arrangement of the Qur’an was determined by the Prophet himself, under guidance from God. They see in this arrangement a coherence that is suitable for all people and for all times to come.

Please READ the thing if you are going to comment. Because I Actually have I am not just saying that      I have searched for religion and have even gone as far as to spend a week in a Buddhist monastery living like a monk to see if it inspired me. Reading the Koran was no great effort, Especially when I was given it on a train, I was reading a book about Egyptian religions at the time and he must of thought he might convert me.   

the bible is written wonderfully, with many buried treasures for people to find through study or the Holy Spirit guidance.

veya_victaous wrote:@smelly
you are wrong. I have the book and have read it, it definitely is not presented from shortest to longest or vice versa.
And the Bible wasn't put into book form until 300 years after Jesus died

http://www.daralislam.org/portals/0/Publications/TheQURANHowitwasRevealedandCompiled.pdf

This may be a good place to dispel some common misconceptions about the arrangement of the Qur’an. It is often said the order of the Qur’an is “roughly” in decreasing order of the size of the Surahs (except the first). It is true that most of the longest Surahs are in the beginning and most of the shortest are at the end. The longest Surah is the second one and has 486 Ayahs and the shortest (103, 108, and 110) are toward the end and have 3 Ayahs each. But, beyond this general observation, one can easily demonstrate a lack of order by size of the Surahs. After the 5th
Surah, the order by size breaks down. For example, the 6th Surah (with 165 Ayahs) is shorter, and not longer, than the 7th (with 206 Ayahs); the 8th (with 75 Ayahs) is shorter than the 9th(with 149 Ayahs); and the 15th (with 99 Ayahs) is shorter than the 16th (with 148 Ayahs). The reverse can be shown at the end of the Book. Surah 95 (with 8 Ayahs) is shorter, not longer, than Surah 96 (with 19 Ayahs) and Surah 103 (with 3 Ayahs) is shorter than Syrah 104 (with 9 Ayahs).

Obviously Muslims don't like my analysis as it show Mohammad to be Human and his teaching to be those of a human  :::grouch::  they believe;

In contrast with the above mentioned speculations, the Muslims believe that the arrangement of the Qur’an was determined by the Prophet himself, under guidance from God. They see in this arrangement a coherence that is suitable for all people and for all times to come.

Please READ the thing if you are going to comment. Because I Actually have I am not just saying that      I have searched for religion and have even gone as far as to spend a week in a Buddhist monastery living like a monk to see if it inspired me. Reading the Koran was no great effort, Especially when I was given it on a train, I was reading a book about Egyptian religions at the time and he must of thought he might convert me.   

anyone can say they have researched this thing or that thing

but when they come out with theories and ideas that are wildly different to accept conventional knowledge on the subject then that is when they are exposed

you are exposed, you may own a qur'an to impress your ultra liberal LW pals at your PC dinner parties, but read the qur'an you have not

the qur'an is presented longest to shortest sura, you argue against what Islamic scholars themselves have determined

exposed

Most amusing smelly telling someone about reading the Quran, when he has been exposed for not doing so himself countless times, oh my.

Still think this verses is a command to kill all non-Muslims?

9:29 Fight those who believe not in God nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which has been forbidden by God and His Apostle, nor acknowledge the religion of truth, [even if they are] of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.


How many times have I had o educate you on how wrong you have been on that?

Before you preach to others it may help if you read the Quran yourself instead on relying on others who then form idiotic claims

Smelly are you serious?

So you are now saying longest to shortest????

Obviously you dont even own a Quran, let alone 'researched' it!

The shortest sura is sura kauthar.

Which according to you should be at the end? Right.

Go look it up and see where it is.

SEXY MAMA wrote:Smelly are you serious?

So you are now saying longest to shortest????

Obviously you dont even own a Quran, let alone 'researched' it!

The shortest sura is sura kauthar.

Which according to you should be at the end? Right.

Go look it up and see where it is.

@SM
thank you
so i'm not crazy (and the Penguin edition is not wildly out of order) isn't the first one of the shortest, and the second one of the longest?

@smelly
I have read it    which you obviously haven't

SEXY MAMA wrote:Smelly are you serious?

So you are now saying longest to shortest????

Obviously you dont even own a Quran, let alone 'researched' it!

The shortest sura is sura kauthar.

Which according to you should be at the end? Right.

Go look it up and see where it is.

the qur'an is arranged longest to shortest

this is the agreed upon order of arrangement

veya_victaous wrote:

SEXY MAMA wrote:Smelly are you serious?

So you are now saying longest to shortest????

Obviously you dont even own a Quran, let alone 'researched' it!

The shortest sura is sura kauthar.

Which according to you should be at the end? Right.

Go look it up and see where it is.

@SM
thank you
so i'm not crazy (and the Penguin edition is not wildly out of order) isn't the first one of the shortest, and the second one of the longest?

@smelly
I have read it    which you obviously haven't

sure pal

im the king of England

see how easy it is to make a claim in some shitty online forum??

will repeating your point actually make it true Smelly?

SEXY MAMA wrote:

Korben Dallas wrote:There are many examples in the bible of god requiring people to be killed SM
Although I admit that god did not write the bible so any demands for death are suspect at best

Agreed.

where as the qur'an is considered to be written by god so the kill commands in the qur'an must be genuine right??

@smelly
the first Sura, al-Fâtiha - The Opening

In the name of God, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.
Praise be to God, the Cherisher and Sustainer of the world;
Most Gracious, Most Merciful;
Master of the Day of Judgment.
Thee do we worship, and Thine aid we seek.
Show us the straight way,
The way of those on whom Thou hast bestowed Thy Grace,
those whose (portion) is not wrath, and who go not astray.

Second Sura , Al-Baqarah 'the cow'
is so long (286 lines) i am just going to link to it
http://www.iqrasearch.com/surah-al-baqara-translation.html


NOT JUST SAYING IT, you see how easy it is to actually find the truth rather than some misbegotten notions that are completely ridiculous to anyone with even the most basic knowledge on the topic.

Now the most active topic on the forum!

Great news Ben, I see we've recently passed 40,000 posts too, nice one

Smelly, if you even have a copy of the Koran (which any worthwhile debater of religion should) you need only have glanced at it too see you are wrong about the order- I mean I'm sure you haven't been arguing all these years based on what you've read on 'less than impartial' anti-Islam websites

smelly_bandit wrote:

SEXY MAMA wrote:

Agreed.

where as the qur'an is considered to be written by god so the kill commands in the qur'an must be genuine right??

all the hate in the koran comes directly from allah, if they are still following the koran the hate must still be there.

smelly_bandit wrote:

SEXY MAMA wrote:Smelly are you serious?

So you are now saying longest to shortest????

Obviously you dont even own a Quran, let alone 'researched' it!

The shortest sura is sura kauthar.

Which according to you should be at the end? Right.

Go look it up and see where it is.

the qur'an is arranged longest to shortest

this is the agreed upon order of arrangement

I asked you a question. Anyway read this and learn.......




The Qur'an was from the very beginning intended to be a book. The arrangement of the verses and chapters is not chronologically and was done under the supervision of the Holy Prophet. This short text clears up some misconceptions about the arrangement.




The Arrangement of Verses and Chapters in the Qur'an

"The responsibility of its collection and its arrangement lies on Us" (75:17)
The word Jama‘ in the Arabic text of the verse above implies both collection and arrangement, which is a process quite different from the revelation. It is not true that the verses and chapters of the Holy Qur’ân were arranged after the death of the Holy Prophet by someone else, or that they were arranged in the order of their length; the longest coming first and the shortest last. It is also wrong to say that within the chapters the passages are joined together without any regard to either chronology of revelation or similarity of subject, and that most heterogeneous materials are put together without any regard to logical sequence.

The whole Qur’ân, complete in every respect, was available in the Holy Prophet’s life time (Caetani, 2:384). The Companions of the Holy Prophet say, ‘We used to write down the Holy Qur’ân in the time of the Holy Prophet’ (Hâkim: Al-Mustadrik, 2:611). The arrangement of chapters and verses in the copies of the Holy Qur’ân at present in our hands does not follow the chronological order of revelation and their arrangement is Tauqif, i.e. effected by the Holy Prophet under the guidance of Divine revelations (75:17-18). And whenever a revelation came, the scribes were called and ‘…the Prophet told his scribes where to place a particular verse that was just revealed.’(Abu Dawood, At-Tirmidhî). It is also said in the Holy Qur’ân:


"(But We have revealed it) in this manner (- piece by piece out of necessity). And (in spite of the fact that it has not been revealed all at once,) We have arranged it in an excellent (form and order of) arrangement (and free of all contradictions) "(25:32).
The concise phrase Rattalnâ-hu-Tartîlan in the above verse comprises the parallel concept of putting the component parts of a thing together and arranging them well, as well as endowing it with inner consistency. The word Tartîl refers to the measured diction and the thoughtful manner in which it ought to be enunciated. Thus, from the very first, it was meant that the verses and the chapters of the Holy Scripture should be arranged in an order different from that of their revelation, otherwise the revelation and the collection and arrangement would not have been described as two different things.

There was an arrangement followed by the Holy Prophet and we know that many Companions of the Holy Prophet committed the Holy Qur’ân to memory and could recite it in the recognized order as followed by the Prophet. This shows that there was a connection of its verses and chapters, and there was a recognized division of the Book and a fixed form and sequence. The chapters were distinctly marked out and their number was determined. Without a known order and sequence of verses, the Qur’ân could not have been committed to memory. The present arrangement of the Qur’ân does not differ from that followed by the Holy Prophet. There are several sayings of the Holy Prophet from which this can be inferred. The Holy Prophet said, ‘Whoever reads the last two verses of the chapter entitled Baqarah on any night, they are sufficient for him’ (Bukhârî; 64:12). This shows that the Holy Prophet followed an arrangement which he had made known to his Companions. If such had not been the case he could not have referred to two verses as the ‘last’ two verses of a certain chapter. According to another saying of the Holy Prophet he told his Companions to recite the first ten and last ten verses of the chapter entitled Al-Kahf on a particular occasion. Had there been no sequence of verses, ‘the first ten verses and last ten verses’ would have been a meaningless phrase. Not only the verses of the Holy Qur’ân but even its chapters were arranged by the Holy Prophet himself. This is afforded by the following saying of Anas: ‘At the time when the Banû Thaqîf accepted Islam, I was in that delegation. The Holy Prophet said to us, 'When you people came to meet me, I was reciting my portion of the Holy Qur’ân which I used to recite daily, so I decided not to go out until I had finished it.' Thereupon we questioned the Companions of the Holy Prophet as to how they divided the Holy Qur’ân into portions for reading. They said, “We observe the following divisions, 3 chapters, 5 chapters, 7 chapters, 9 chapters, 11 chapters and 13 chapters, and all the remaining chapters beginning with chapter entitled Qâf’ (Fath al-Bârî, 9:39). This form of reading divided the Qur’ân into seven portions or Ahzâb, each portion to be recited in one day and, thus, the recital of the whole Qur’ân (114 chapters) was finished in seven days. This report of Anas shows an arrangement of chapters which is observed to this day by the whole MuslimUmmah. This and many other reports by the Companions of the Prophet give conclusive testimony to the fact that the form and arrangement of the chapters of the Holy Book was brought about by the Holy Prophet himself, and that the present arrangement does not differ in the least from the original of the time of the Prophet.

The efforts of some European scholars such as Well, Nöldecke, Muir, Rodwell and others such as N. J. Dawood to rearrange the Holy Qur'ân are misleading and are unworthy of being considered as scholarly.

Eilzel wrote:Great news Ben, I see we've recently passed 40,000 posts too, nice one

Smelly, if you even have a copy of the Koran (which any worthwhile debater of religion should) you need only have glanced at it too see you are wrong about the order- I mean I'm sure you haven't been arguing all these years based on what you've read on 'less than impartial' anti-Islam websites

im not wrong about the order

take a look at the overall order of how its arranged and you will see a pattern of how it always goes from longest to shortest.

if you put it chronologically then there would be no pattern in length of suras and then it would appear like a normal book.

smelly_bandit wrote:

Eilzel wrote:Great news Ben, I see we've recently passed 40,000 posts too, nice one

Smelly, if you even have a copy of the Koran (which any worthwhile debater of religion should) you need only have glanced at it too see you are wrong about the order- I mean I'm sure you haven't been arguing all these years based on what you've read on 'less than impartial' anti-Islam websites

im not wrong about the order

take a look at the overall order of how its arranged and you will see a pattern of how it always goes from longest to shortest.

if you put it chronologically then there would be no pattern in length of suras and then it would appear like a normal book.

You don't bother reading anything do you?

Ok MAYBE CAPS MAY HELP?

SURA FATHIYA IS THE FIRST SURA OF THE QURAN AND ITS A FEW LINES LONG.

HOW DO YOU EXPALIN THAT?

Take your time...............................................................................

SEXY MAMA wrote:

smelly_bandit wrote:

im not wrong about the order

take a look at the overall order of how its arranged and you will see a pattern of how it always goes from longest to shortest.

if you put it chronologically then there would be no pattern in length of suras and then it would appear like a normal book.

You don't bother reading anything do you?

Ok MAYBE CAPS MAY HELP?

SURA FATHIYA IS THE FIRST SURA OF THE QURAN AND ITS A FEW LINES LONG.

HOW DO YOU EXPALIN THAT?

Take your time...............................................................................

i don't need to take my time

it is the first because the men who wrote the qur'an deemed it to be the appropriate opening sura

it is not under any circumstance the first one "revealed"

would you like to know which one was the first revealed??

Are you serious?

Go for it Smelly

SEXY MAMA wrote:Are you serious?

Go for it Smelly

i am serious mama

let me ask you a question

what is the first thing god/allah is believed to have done??

smelly_bandit wrote:

SEXY MAMA wrote:Are you serious?

Go for it Smelly

i am serious mama

let me ask you a question

what is the first thing god/allah is believed to have done??

No i asked you first.

You dont want to answer because you know you are wrong dont you? Lol

SEXY MAMA wrote:

smelly_bandit wrote:

i am serious mama

let me ask you a question

what is the first thing god/allah is believed to have done??

No i asked you first.

You dont want to answer because you know you are wrong dont you? Lol

im more than happy to answer but it makes things easier if its a two way conversation

i think from your previous experience of talking to me about Islam you're worried about what i have to offer

last time you spoke to me you ended up condemning your own faith and committing shirk

what is the first thing god/allah is believed to have done??

First revealed is Surat-al-Alaq and has 19 ayahs 96th surah in final arrangement http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Alaq

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Baqara
The longest is Surah Al Baqara 282 ayahs the cow the 2nd surah in final arrangement. and one of the first 5 revealed

http://www.ask.com/question/what-did-god-create-in-7-days

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20090827024534AAzvIWC

First thing the monotheist god created was light, both Muslim and Christian, being the same god and all     

veya_victaous wrote:First revealed is Surat-al-Alaq and has 19 ayahs 96th surah in final arrangement http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Alaq

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Baqara
The longest is Surah Al Baqara 282 ayahs the cow the 2nd surah in final arrangement. and one of the first 5 revealed

 thanks for that

but you're still missing the overall picture aren't you

So basically we have an argument here where nobody can prove how the Quran was revealed basically as no original complete Qurans exist or have been found to show otherwise and all is based upon traditions and would thus be using faith to back their view.

What a daft argument

PhilDidge wrote:So basically we have an argument here where nobody can prove how the Quran was revealed basically as no original complete Qurans exist or have been found to show otherwise and all is based upon traditions and would thus be using faith to back their view.

What a daft argument

I believe there were lots of different versions of the koran and one was accepted and the rest burnt but basically it was made up with a great deal of influence of a young girl.. :D 

heavenly father wrote:

PhilDidge wrote:So basically we have an argument here where nobody can prove how the Quran was revealed basically as no original complete Qurans exist or have been found to show otherwise and all is based upon traditions and would thus be using faith to back their view.

What a daft argument

I believe there were lots of different versions of the koran and one was accepted and the rest burnt but basically it was made up with a great deal of influence of a young girl.. :D 

I shall answer this before I go, to me all religious works are man made and the traditions around the beginnings of the Quran are just that traditions.

The Oldest Quran, is the Samarkand Kufic or Uthman Quran.

Now this Quran is incomplete he manuscript is incomplete:
It begins in the middle of verse 7 of the second sura and ends at Surah 43:10The manuscript has between eight and twelve lines to the page and, showing its antiquity, the text is devoid of vocalisation. and dated to the early 8th AD again a long enough time after Muhammad lived.

One claiming to be earlier than this though not as yet tested by the west I think is the Sana'a manuscript in Yemen, even this is incomplete

Now thse Qurans ae different to existing Qurans today, showing how can you possibly tell what verses were revealed, when the oldest ones are incomplete and do not match today's?
Or how none survive from the time of Muhammad?

PhilDidge wrote:

heavenly father wrote:

I believe there were lots of different versions of the koran and one was accepted and the rest burnt but basically it was made up with a great deal of influence of a young girl.. :D 

I shall answer this before I go, to me all religious works are man made and the traditions around the beginnings of the Quran are just that traditions.

The Oldest Quran, is the Samarkand Kufic or Uthman Quran.

Now this Quran is incomplete he manuscript is incomplete:
It begins in the middle of verse 7 of the second sura and ends at Surah 43:10The manuscript has between eight and twelve lines to the page and, showing its antiquity, the text is devoid of vocalisation. and dated to the early 8th AD again a long enough time after Muhammad lived.

One claiming to be earlier than this though not as yet tested by the west I think is the Sana'a manuscript in Yemen, even this is incomplete

Now thse Qurans ae different to existing Qurans today, showing how can you possibly tell what verses were revealed, when the oldest ones are incomplete and do not match today's?
Or how none survive from the time of Muhammad?

the bible is so different being God inspired not by a little girl, quite a difference..

the koran does not have a good foundation for truth or authenticity i agree. :D 

To me they are all man made works, if they had been written by women, no doubt religious conflicts would be a rarity.

As to authentic, to me it has little, just faith, by those who believe it is, just like the bible.

Hence why so many religious wars through time, due to faith

PhilDidge wrote:To me they are all man made works, if they had been written by women, no doubt religious conflicts would be a rarity.

As to authentic, to me it has little, just faith, by those who believe it is, just like the bible.

Hence why so many religious wars through time, due to faith

makes you wonder how people of biblical times knew the dimensions for a safe ocean going vessel and that they knew that the seas cam from springs in the very depths of the oceans or that the earth was suspended in the heavens on nothing, especially when other religions imagined the earth carried on creatures or on the backs of men.. :D 

You do realise boats had been around for over a thousand years earlier and you may want to see how they rebuilt the boats found buried near the Great Pyramid and are very seaworthy  so not much brainstorming to figure out how they knew how to build, I mean how do you think the ancient Egyptians were able to obtain cocaine and Nicotine?

PhilDidge wrote:You do realise boats had been around for over a thousand years earlier and you may want to see how they rebuilt the boats found buried near the Great Pyramid and are very seaworthy  so not much brainstorming to figure out how they knew how to build, I mean how do you think the ancient Egyptians were able to obtain cocaine and Nicotine?

ocean going vessels, depths of the sea, earth suspended on nothing... :D 

Yes we are talking about Ocean going vessels, again this point you clearly overlooked:

I mean how do you think the ancient Egyptians were able to obtain cocaine and Nicotine?

Where are those plants indigenous too?

PhilDidge wrote:Yes we are talking about Ocean going vessels, again this point you clearly overlooked:

I mean how do you think the ancient Egyptians were able to obtain cocaine and Nicotine?

Where are those plants indigenous too?

its only plants, i'm talking about knowledge of the world beyond their possible understanding..

Seriously, what part of Adam did he give up to create you, a fart?

Seriously I really do despair at how daft you are at times, if these plants come from South America, then there is every possibility that people came across from this continent to Africa or vice versa. That means sailing across oceans

Right really am late

PhilDidge wrote:Seriously, what part of Adam did he give up to create you, a fart?

Seriously I really do despair at how daft you are at times, if these plants come from South America, then there is every possibility that people came across from this continent to Africa or vice versa. That means sailing across oceans

Right really am late

who says the plants came from south america? :D 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coca

DOH


Byeee

PhilDidge wrote:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coca

DOH


Byeee

wow wiki, good call... :D 

how do we know it wasn't a derivative that grew in around Egypt? :D 

Not only are you daft but desperate, what did you fail to understand by the plant being indigenous to South America and understanding the genetics behind that, something you failed to grasp on your poor claim to a flood by that chap who looks rather silly when we show other people were living then.

I have to go, maybe you might suprise me with something intelligent on return

Good luck

Oh and on plants:

Knock yourself out reading

http://www2.estrellamountain.edu/faculty/farabee/BIOBK/biobookdiversity_6.html

PhilDidge wrote:Not only are you daft but desperate, what did you fail to understand by the plant being indigenous to South America and understanding the genetics behind that, something you failed to grasp on your poor claim to a flood by that chap who looks rather silly when we show other people were living then.

I have to go, maybe you might suprise me with something intelligent on return

Good luck

so you don't know if there was a similar plant that grew in Egypt, that's ok you could have just said so... :D 

anyway, ocean going vessels, seas fed from vents in the bottom of the sea and the earth suspended on nothing...good information that the bible says. :D 

PhilDidge wrote:Oh and on plants:

Knock yourself out reading

http://www2.estrellamountain.edu/faculty/farabee/BIOBK/biobookdiversity_6.html

Clearly you missed this the first time, please educate yourself first on this matter, before you ask absurd questions you know nothing about

Good luck

PhilDidge wrote:

PhilDidge wrote:Oh and on plants:

Knock yourself out reading

http://www2.estrellamountain.edu/faculty/farabee/BIOBK/biobookdiversity_6.html

Clearly you missed this the first time, please educate yourself first on this matter, before you ask absurd questions you know nothing about

Good luck

what proof do you have that ocean going vessels have crossed from south america to Egypt to carrying cocaine and tobacco..? :D 

if there is none it is just as safe to assume the plants required or similar were available in or around egypt... :D 

Again stop asking daft questions based upon your poor knowledge, we have vessels found in Eygpt, built before the claim date for the flood, the place where the cocaine is found

DOH

PhilDidge wrote:Again stop asking daft questions based upon your poor knowledge, we have vessels found in Eygpt, built before the claim date for the flood, the place where the cocaine is found

DOH

and were they full of tobacco and cocaine, would you have a source.. :D 

When Columbus and his buddies made it to the New World, aka not India, they found more than just future smallpox sufferers waiting for them. There was a whole cornucopia of never-before-seen plants and animals growing in the Americas, not to mention new and interesting ways to use beads. So while the natives came away from their first European encounter with raging infectious diseases and honeybees, Europeans were introduced to the glories of tobacco, narcotics made from the coca leaf and a whole mess of open-air nudity. If you've ever needed evidence that history is unfair, there it is.

At least that's the story we know. And if that's true, then how did some Egyptian mummies wind up with traces of cocaine in their bodies?

The Finds:

In 1992, German scientists were testing their mummies when they found remnants of hashish, tobacco and cocaine in their hair, skin and bones. Now, hashish comes from Asia, so it's not unfathomable that a royal Egyptian would know a guy who could get him the hook-up. But tobacco and cocaine were strictly New World plants at the time of the mummification. It'd be like if some celebrity today tested positive for heroin that could only have been grown on Venus.



So how did it happen? All we have are theories. Maybe the sites were contaminated by hard-partying archaeologists (although you'd think that if somebody had old pics of themselves snorting coke off of a mummy's ass, they'd have uploaded that shit to Facebook by now). Or maybe the mummies themselves were fake, like maybe they were disco-era archaeologists who just took their love of mummification too far.

So the German scientists did what anyone trying to protect their reputation would do -- they had an independent lab test the mummies themselves. They found the same dope. The Germans then went to work testing hundreds of ancient mummies, finding nicotine in a third of them. Not only that, but actual tobacco leaves were discovered in the guts of Ramses II (of Exodus fame, maybe). And among those leaves, an actual dead tobacco beetle was found, which means that some ancient Egyptian just smoked the hell out of his cigarettes.

Read more: http://www.cracked.com/article_19769_5-baffling-discoveries-that-prove-history-books-are-wrong.html#ixzz2u33QfzdV

heavenly father wrote:

PhilDidge wrote:So basically we have an argument here where nobody can prove how the Quran was revealed basically as no original complete Qurans exist or have been found to show otherwise and all is based upon traditions and would thus be using faith to back their view.

What a daft argument

I believe there were lots of different versions of the koran and one was accepted and the rest burnt but basically it was made up with a great deal of influence of a young girl.. :D 

that is spot on