Las Vegas shooting: Gunman 'identified as 64-year-old white male'

by Guest Mon Oct 02, 2017 11:33 am

First topic message reminder :

The Las Vegas gunman who killed at least 20 people and injured more than 100 when he opened fire on a music festival has been identified as a 64-year-old white male, according to ABC News.

Police earlier announced the suspect had been identified as a "local man" but stopped short of naming him.

Las Vegas Sheriff Joseph Lombardo said a manhunt was underway for a person of interest, believed to be his roommate, identified as Marilou Danley.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/las-vegas-shooting-gunman-identified-police-white-male-mandalay-bay-casino-strip-a7978241.html

More white terrorism

by Guest Thu Oct 12, 2017 4:52 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Didge wrote:You are also neglecting the fact the Police is made up of whites, blacks, hispanics, asians etc.

All operating under the white man's orders.

So your theory is black cops are killing unarmed black men because whites tell them to??

Did you watch the video??

Was the BLM activist also under white man's orders

by Guest Thu Oct 12, 2017 5:41 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Didge wrote:Slavery ended 150 years ago and to go off this shows how badly you are living in the past.

No it didn't. Today we have systemic racism, vestiges of former slavery. It's still with us, barely hidden.

And we have shields for racism like you, who pretend to be sympathetic, but "don't like the ways of them uppity black fellers." In other ways, you can believe in reform, but just don't say anything.

So essentially you are an idiot. As slavery ended 150 years ago

You do not question how or why whites or hispanics end up being shot by Police.
Your bog standard stupidity, is that any blacks shot by the Police, even if some are shooting at the Police, is down to racism.

Hence absurd and shows its people like you inciting racial tensions and hate

Its because of idiots like you that make racism tens times worse

So try again

Which as seen your first point is a load of clap trap.
As why is it thousands of white Police officers arrest black criminals without shooting or killing them?
Slavery ended 150 years ago and to go off this shows how badly you are living in the past.
You are also neglecting the fact the Police is made up of whites, blacks, hispanics, asians etc.

Now this year alone 766 people have been shot by the Police
360 were white
173 were black
124 were Hispanic
27 were other
82 unknown

https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/national/police-shootings-2017/

So where is all the Hispanic and white lives matter or do the 484 shootings by the Police on both ethnic groups not matter?

So where is all the news coverage of these deaths?

Where is all the protests?

You see, when its broken down, you simple do not want to look at the facts and where Blacks are shot, you poorly and immediately invoke racism before any investigation. That is sheer ignorance on your part

Now of these shootings 435 had guns and 120 knives. Of those shot and killed by the Police 180 had mental illnesses.

Now you want to look at the number of blacks involved in murders and violent crimes?

https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-black-americans-commit-crime

Hence the problem is tackling poverty, decriminalizing drugs and tackling the Gun culture in the US. You need to tackle what leads people into crime. Police need better training on understanding mental heath issues also. Most of all tackling poverty.

And here is the kicker for you to show how poor your view is.

Even though the Police will face many incidents no matter if the suspect is white, black or hispanic. Whites are more likley to be shot and killed in such situations than blacks. Now on the link of Blacks are involved in high amount of crimes as suspects and being arrested. Thus if more people from an ethnic group are involved in crimes. Then the risk goes up for such fatal shootings. Hence why its rare that asians are shot and killed, as they are less involved in crime. Only rarely will there be a case of racism and murder by the Police. Most will have happened in self defence, fear taking control, poor training, or where they do not understand the problems with some mental health people and wrongly interpret an aggressive reaction.

This is what you fail to grasp. The police deal with millions of incidents daily, where millions are not shot and killed, but in incidents where there is a shooting, far more whites end up being shot and killed.

by Maddog Thu Oct 12, 2017 7:33 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Maddog wrote:

Yeah, the police are doing an excellent job.

How many Americans have they killed this year?

And with a guy like Trump, do you really want to disarm the citizens?

It makes little sense to bitch about him being a Nazi, while you want to round up all the weapons.

Trump doesn't figure into the gun debate. If Trump, president of the US, wants to start shooting citizens, your little 2nd Amendment pee-shooters won't do any thing. He has nuclear weapons, fgs, not to mention FA-18's and aircraft carriers. The notion that the 2nd Amendment protects us from a tyrannical government is laughable.

The police are problematic in that they want to shoot black men. But that's a separate issue, and a part of the Black Lives Matter crusade. I'm merely saying that these little tiffs involved in this so-called terrorism, are police matters. Whether ISIS or al Qaeda, they don't pose a challenge that calls for a military response.

The police are problematic because they will shoot anyone. Ask the poor white Australian woman that was shot in Minnesota.

by Maddog Thu Oct 12, 2017 7:35 pm

Original Quill wrote:Are you talking about Black Lives Matter? Your head is in the sand; it is a response to racism.

You can't deny it...not if you look around you. Police relish killing black men. It's part of the deep, psychological alienation and fear that white people have of blacks. Dylann Roof came closest when he said they were raping “our women and are taking over our country.”

That's in the back of all white policemen whenever they confront a black man. And then, they know that no white jury will ever convict them, because they face danger every day! License to kill.

Too many dead white men for that statement to be true.

Maybe the cops just like killing men, since they are the gender usually killed? Shocked

by Guest Thu Oct 12, 2017 7:37 pm

Maddog wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

Trump doesn't figure into the gun debate. If Trump, president of the US, wants to start shooting citizens, your little 2nd Amendment pee-shooters won't do any thing. He has nuclear weapons, fgs, not to mention FA-18's and aircraft carriers. The notion that the 2nd Amendment protects us from a tyrannical government is laughable.

The police are problematic in that they want to shoot black men. But that's a separate issue, and a part of the Black Lives Matter crusade. I'm merely saying that these little tiffs involved in this so-called terrorism, are police matters. Whether ISIS or al Qaeda, they don't pose a challenge that calls for a military response.

The police are problematic because they will shoot anyone. Ask the poor white Australian woman that was shot in Minnesota.

If that was the case, why is only a small proportion of people shot in Police incidents which go into the millions each year?

by Maddog Thu Oct 12, 2017 7:47 pm

Didge wrote:
Maddog wrote:

The police are problematic because they will shoot anyone. Ask the poor white Australian woman that was shot in Minnesota.

If that was the case, why is only a small proportion of people shot in Police incidents which go into the millions each year?

It's a small problem in that sense, unless you're one of the small problems.

There is too much use of force in the US. Too much deadly force for sure.

It's not a racial (or a gender) problem. It's poor training, a warrior mentality and an inability to get rid of bad cops before it's too late.

by Guest Thu Oct 12, 2017 7:55 pm

Maddog wrote:
Didge wrote:

If that was the case, why is only a small proportion of people shot in Police incidents which go into the millions each year?

It's a small problem in that sense, unless you're one of the small problems.

There is too much use of force in the US. Too much deadly force for sure.

It's not a racial (or a gender) problem. It's poor training, a warrior mentality and an inability to get rid of bad cops before it's too late.

I agree its not a racial or gender problem, but a culmination of a gun culture, high violent and murder rates, poor training, even more so when dealing with mental health.

Lets use some empathic intelligence here and try placing ourselves in the shoes of cops.

Now everyone is human, which in any given situation the adrenaline is going to kick in when attending a reported incident of where the suspect has a gun or armed. This is going to heighten the possibility of fear kicking in for the officer and in those rare incidents that someone is shot through fear they may lose their lives themselves. Its heightened even more when cops are killed thenselves and again based on a high murder rate, violent crime and gun culture.

To be honest i am surpised that there is so few fatal shootings. I know that is small comfort to those who are innocent and shot by the Police, but I am surprised the figure is not that much higher. When they are facing that many more suspected armed suspects in an incident. As seen by the figures many of those shot have been armed. Clearly this is leading to negligence in some cases and even more so when the person is not armed and clearly where there is a high number of victims with mental health. I know that the Police in the US do not help themselves by placing an emphasis on training videos that show cops being killed. This clearly raises that fear within some cops.

The biggest thing to tackle is the level of crimes, which again relative poverty is one of the driving factors and also they should decriminalize drugs.

by Maddog Thu Oct 12, 2017 8:06 pm

Didge wrote:
Maddog wrote:

It's a small problem in that sense, unless you're one of the small problems.

There is too much use of force in the US. Too much deadly force for sure.

It's not a racial (or a gender) problem. It's poor training, a warrior mentality and an inability to get rid of bad cops before it's too late.

I agree its not a racial or gender problem, but a culmination of a gun culture, high violent and murder rates, poor training, even more so when dealing with mental health.

Lets use some empathic intelligence here and try placing ourselves in the shoes of cops.

Now everyone is human, which in any given situation the adrenaline is going to kick in when attending a reported incident of where the suspect has a gun or armed. This is going to heighten the possibility of fear kicking in for the officer and in those rare incidents that someone is shot through fear they may lose their lives themselves. Its heightened even more when cops are killed thenselves and again based on a high murder rate, violent crime and gun culture.

To be honest i am surpised that there is so few fatal shootings. I know that is small comfort to those who are innocent and shot by the Police, but I am surprised the figure is not that much higher. When they are facing that many more suspected armed suspects in an incident. As seen by the figures many of those shot have been armed. Clearly this is leading to negligence in some cases and even more so when the person is not armed and clearly where there is a high number of victims with mental health. I know that the Police in the US do not help themselves by placing an emphasis on training videos that show cops being killed. This clearly raises that fear within some cops.

The biggest thing to tackle is the level of crimes, which again relative poverty is one of the driving factors and also they should decriminalize drugs.

Yes, cops are trained to be afraid of the typical citizen. That fear is reinforced throughout his career by more training.

The drug war just exponentially increases the interactions between cops and the public, which increases the likelihood of something bad happening. It's a disaster, and excuse to outfit the cops like soldiers, and to abuse civil asset forfeiture which is legalized government theft.

by Guest Thu Oct 12, 2017 8:13 pm

Maddog wrote:
Didge wrote:

I agree its not a racial or gender problem, but a culmination of a gun culture, high violent and murder rates, poor training, even more so when dealing with mental health.

Lets use some empathic intelligence here and try placing ourselves in the shoes of cops.

Now everyone is human, which in any given situation the adrenaline is going to kick in when attending a reported incident of where the suspect has a gun or armed. This is going to heighten the possibility of fear kicking in for the officer and in those rare incidents that someone is shot through fear they may lose their lives themselves. Its heightened even more when cops are killed thenselves and again based on a high murder rate, violent crime and gun culture.

To be honest i am surpised that there is so few fatal shootings. I know that is small comfort to those who are innocent and shot by the Police, but I am surprised the figure is not that much higher. When they are facing that many more suspected armed suspects in an incident. As seen by the figures many of those shot have been armed. Clearly this is leading to negligence in some cases and even more so when the person is not armed and clearly where there is a high number of victims with mental health. I know that the Police in the US do not help themselves by placing an emphasis on training videos that show cops being killed. This clearly raises that fear within some cops.

The biggest thing to tackle is the level of crimes, which again relative poverty is one of the driving factors and also they should decriminalize drugs.

Yes, cops are trained to be afraid of the typical citizen. That fear is reinforced throughout his career by more training.

The drug war just exponentially increases the interactions between cops and the public, which increases the likelihood of something bad happening. It's a disaster, and excuse to outfit the cops like soldiers, and to abuse civil asset forfeiture which is legalized government theft.

I agree, the drug war has been an utter failure.

So much crime could be reduced by decriminalizing

by JulesV Thu Oct 12, 2017 9:29 pm

I've never known a crime so seeped in mystery as this one. A gold mine for CT enthusiasts.

by Original Quill Thu Oct 12, 2017 10:28 pm

Maddog wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

Trump doesn't figure into the gun debate. If Trump, president of the US, wants to start shooting citizens, your little 2nd Amendment pee-shooters won't do any thing. He has nuclear weapons, fgs, not to mention FA-18's and aircraft carriers. The notion that the 2nd Amendment protects us from a tyrannical government is laughable.

The police are problematic in that they want to shoot black men. But that's a separate issue, and a part of the Black Lives Matter crusade. I'm merely saying that these little tiffs involved in this so-called terrorism, are police matters. Whether ISIS or al Qaeda, they don't pose a challenge that calls for a military response.

The police are problematic because they will shoot anyone. Ask the poor white Australian woman that was shot in Minnesota.

It is true, that the police have an inflated sense of their own power. But put in perspective, America is a racist nation, and as you would expect, the police are racist too.

What do you think 'profiling' is, but following a hunch, or expectation, that blacks and Hispanics are criminals. This, in turn, becomes a self-fulling prophecy, turning black and Hispanic youths into criminals.

Thus, a force that will indiscriminately kill anyone, will surely indiscriminately kill blacks and Hispanics. They will have more opportunity, the more they expect a race to fulfill their anticipation. Then a racist nation will produce racist jurors, who will quite naturally excuse the criminal cops.

by Guest Thu Oct 12, 2017 10:32 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Maddog wrote:

The police are problematic because they will shoot anyone. Ask the poor white Australian woman that was shot in Minnesota.

It is true, that the police have an inflated sense of their own power. But put in perspective, America is a racist nation, and as you would expect, the police are racist too.

What do you think 'profiling' is, but following a hunch, or expectation, that blacks and Hispanics are criminals. This, in turn, becomes a self-fulling prophecy, turning black and Hispanic youths into criminals.

Thus, a force that will indiscriminately kill anyone, will surely indiscriminately kill blacks and Hispanics. They will have more opportunity, the more they expect a race to fulfill their anticipation. Then a racist nation will produce racist jurors, who will quite naturally excuse the criminal cops.

So show me any laws in the US constitution that is inherantly racist?

Are you claiming the US is more racist now than it was under the civil rights movement?

Like i say, its people like you that make up continual bull and make racism, ten times worse

So why are more white people shot in confrontations with the Police?

It shows you have no idea what you are talking about and assume the absurd position that any Black person shot involved in an incident must be racism as the cause.

And you claim to have been a judge?

by Guest Thu Oct 12, 2017 10:33 pm

Quill did you watch the videos I posted up??

by Original Quill Thu Oct 12, 2017 10:53 pm

Didge wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

It is true, that the police have an inflated sense of their own power. But put in perspective, America is a racist nation, and as you would expect, the police are racist too.

What do you think 'profiling' is, but following a hunch, or expectation, that blacks and Hispanics are criminals. This, in turn, becomes a self-fulling prophecy, turning black and Hispanic youths into criminals.

Thus, a force that will indiscriminately kill anyone, will surely indiscriminately kill blacks and Hispanics. They will have more opportunity, the more they expect a race to fulfill their anticipation. Then a racist nation will produce racist jurors, who will quite naturally excuse the criminal cops.

So show me any laws in the US constitution that is inherantly racist?

I didn't say the Constitution was racist. I said the American people are racist. FGS, slavery was once legal in southern states. What more do you want?

by Maddog Thu Oct 12, 2017 10:55 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Maddog wrote:

The police are problematic because they will shoot anyone. Ask the poor white Australian woman that was shot in Minnesota.

It is true, that the police have an inflated sense of their own power. But put in perspective, America is a racist nation, and as you would expect, the police are racist too.

What do you think 'profiling' is, but following a hunch, or expectation, that blacks and Hispanics are criminals. This, in turn, becomes a self-fulling prophecy, turning black and Hispanic youths into criminals.

Thus, a force that will indiscriminately kill anyone, will surely indiscriminately kill blacks and Hispanics. They will have more opportunity, the more they expect a race to fulfill their anticipation. Then a racist nation will produce racist jurors, who will quite naturally excuse the criminal cops.

Then why are more men killed by police?

by Guest Thu Oct 12, 2017 10:55 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Didge wrote:

So show me any laws in the US constitution that is inherantly racist?

I didn't say the Constitution was racist. I said the American people are racist. FGS, slavery was once legal in southern states. What more do you want?

So you have just condemned the entire people of the US as racist, thus by your own reasoning making you racist.

Including Ben, Cass, Lurker etc

It was legal generations ago, not anymore.

by eddie Sat Oct 14, 2017 3:43 pm

Las Vegas sheriff: gunman planned to survive and may have had help

Agent overseeing FBI investigation says ‘theories are great’ after sheriff speculates that Stephen Paddock could have had assistance

Paul LewisFirst published on Thursday 5 October 2017 03.45 BST

Las Vegas police said there was evidence gunman Stephen Paddock intended to survive and escape his deadly attack at a country music festival on Sunday, and revealed that he also rented an apartment overlooking another music festival that took place in the city the previous weekend.

The disclosures were among several new details revealed by Sheriff Joseph Lombardo, who also strayed into speculation that the man believed responsible for the deadliest mass shooting in modern US history had help.

“Do you think this was all accomplished on his own?” Lombardo asked, noting the arsenal of weapons the shooter amassed, and the discovery of explosives in his car. He added: “You’ve got to make the assumption he had to have some help at some point.”

He said that the suspected killer, a 64-year-old retiree and gambler, rented a luxury room through Airbnb overlooking the Life is Beautiful music festival, another Las Vegas festival which occurred the week before the Route 91 Harvest music festival he eventually targeted.

Lombardo also said he had seen evidence that Paddock may have intended to survive his killing spree from the Mandalay Bay Hotel and Casino, which he used as a base for the attack. The sheriff did not say what the evidence was.

The remarks were made at press conference that raised as many questions as it answered and suggested that, 72 hours after the attack, after extensively interviewing Paddock’s girlfriend, Marilou Danley, and examining his computers, investigators remain genuinely baffled about his motives.

Paddock’s killing spree resulted in 58 victims and injured at least 489 people. The updated casualty numbers were the most recent given by authorities on Wednesday night.

Lombardo had previously said law enforcement believed Paddock had perpetrated “a solo act”. But on Wednesday, he appeared to change his position. His speculation about the possibility Paddock was aided came after an exchange in which he conceded investigators had not been able to identify any “person of interest” other than Danley.

He said investigators were, however, pressing to find others who may have been involved. It was possible that Paddock was “a super guy” who was “working out all of this on his own”, Lombardo said. But he added: “It would be hard for me to believe that.”

The comment appeared to earn a veiled rebuke from the agent overseeing the FBI’s investigation.

“Theories are great and everyone can have a theory,” said Aaron Rouse, who runs the bureau’s Las Vegas division, and took to the lectern immediately after the sheriff’s comments. “But I need to deal with facts. The sheriff needs to deal with facts.” He added: “He’s not going to make assumptions. I’m not going to make assumptions.”

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/oct/04/las-vegas-gunman-stephen-paddock-survive-police

by Original Quill Sat Oct 14, 2017 4:14 pm

Didge wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

I didn't say the Constitution was racist. I said the American people are racist. FGS, slavery was once legal in southern states. What more do you want?

So you have just condemned the entire people of the US as racist, thus by your own reasoning making you racist.

Well, pretty much the entire people of the US. I'm not racist personally; but then, I'm one of the foremost proponents of separation. I mean, it's a fact that the US is racist, not a act of political will. It's not a choice, it's what those people are!

There are notable exceptions, including the Pacific States of America. That's why I would like to separate us, the PSA, from the Neo-Nazi United States of America.

Didge wrote:Including Ben, Cass, Lurker etc

I said there were exceptions. I don't know where Lurker lives. Cass is in Arizona, and I've thrown a lifeline to Arizona. Ben? We need people like him in the Pacific States, so I hope he will accept my invitation to move to California.

Didge wrote:It was legal generations ago, not anymore.

When it comes to racism, legal isn't the issue. Culture is. The US will never change in our lifetimes. We cannot change it; but we can leave it. The huge riff that has grown to separate the Pacific States from the United States is becoming a reality. We are two entirely different nations, now. Why not make it a legality?

by Guest Sat Oct 14, 2017 4:40 pm

Original Quill wrote:

Well, pretty much the entire people of the US. I'm not racist personally; but then, I'm one of the foremost proponents of separation. I mean, it's a fact that the US is racist, not a act of political will. It's not a choice, it's what those people are!
Didge wrote:
So being the fact you have no evidence for your claim. Insulting countless Americans with such a false charge to pretty much the entire people of the US. Its astounding, that we have only seen progression in the US with civil rights. I mean even more astounding being the fact that no far right racist extremist party have gained power, being as you claim most people are racist.

Again you do not speak for all Americans and reality proves you are fundementally wrong. Only a small number of Americans are racist and you find this on the extreme right and also the extreme left

There are notable exceptions, including the Pacific States of America. That's why I would like to separate us, the PSA, from the Neo-Nazi United States of America.

Didge wrote:Well I am sure you want to go against Democracy, by abandoning the rest of your US fellow citizens. Clearly deeming them inferior to be a part of the nation you want. I mean that sounds very racist to me, that you want to seperate from your fellow American citizens. Or at the very least xenophobic and most definately you discriminating and being prejudiced

When it comes to racism, legal isn't the issue. Culture is. The US will never change in our lifetimes. We cannot change it; but we can leave it. The huge riff that has grown to separate the Pacific States from the United States is becoming a reality. We are two entirely different nations, now. Why not make it a legality?

The US has changed, as again show me any law that is racist?

Then show me why none of the laws that protect civil rights for Black Americans have not changed.

Why has not one state, had someone lected that will introduce prejudice laws against African Americans?

The reality you live under an illusion, one that is not the reality of the US at all

by Guest Sat Oct 14, 2017 4:57 pm

I mean even more astounding to show how poor your argument is on claiming basically all Americans is racist. Is the fact the level of hate crimes is relatively low in the US

FBI states show 5,850 hate crimes for 2015

https://ucr.fbi.gov/hate-crime/2015/topic-pages/incidentsandoffenses_final

56.9% were motivated by race/ethnicity/ancestry bias.

That is roughly 3504 racial hate crimes.

Out of a population of 323.1 million

Now in the Uk in the same year of 2015

There was 52,528 hate crimes with 80% of them racially motivated

Which a population of 65 million

And the Uk is one of the most welcoming places in the world.

I mean if the US is racist, then there seems to be a complete lack of evidence for your claim.

by Original Quill Sat Oct 14, 2017 5:06 pm

Didge wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

Well, pretty much the entire people of the US. I'm not racist personally; but then, I'm one of the foremost proponents of separation. I mean, it's a fact that the US is racist, not a act of political will. It's not a choice, it's what those people are!

There are notable exceptions, including the Pacific States of America. That's why I would like to separate us, the PSA, from the Neo-Nazi United States of America.

When it comes to racism, legal isn't the issue. Culture is. The US will never change in our lifetimes. We cannot change it; but we can leave it. The huge riff that has grown to separate the Pacific States from the United States is becoming a reality. We are two entirely different nations, now. Why not make it a legality?

The US has changed, as again show me any law that is racist?

The acquittal of George Zimmerman was an example of the operation of the law, which is racist. This has been going on for hundreds of years. KKK'ers are hardly even arrested for murder any more. You'll see when they try the murderer in Charlottesville.

Again, I don't want to preach. I advocate separation. I never preached with Pol Pot or Stalin...I urged removal. And that's what I urge here.

Didge wrote:Then show me why none of the laws that protect civil rights for Black Americans have not changed.

They don't work. The Supreme Court gutted the Voting Rights Act of 1965. http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/26/us/supreme-court-ruling.html And, is it lost on you that Trump and Sessions have gutted the Civil Rights Division of the Justice Department? What good is a law with no one to enforce it?

Didge wrote:The reality you live under an illusion, one that is not the reality of the US at all

We live in unusual times. Changes are afoot. New beginnings are the theme. Donald Trump swore to drain the swamp. He was not alone, as millions of voters agreed with him. We are in keeping with the times.

We'll let Trump take care of his swamp on the east coast; but he has legitimized our opportunity to do the same thing on the west coast. What we need to drain--or, perhaps the better word is flush--is the rest of the country. We'll miss New York and New England, but the rest we'll set adrift gladly.

by Guest Sat Oct 14, 2017 5:19 pm

Original Quill wrote:
The acquittal of George Zimmerman was an example of the operation of the law, which is racist. This has been going on for hundreds of years. KKK'ers are hardly even arrested for murder any more. You'll see when they try the murderer in Charlottesville. Again, I don't want to preach. I advocate separation. I never preached with Pol Pot or Stalin...I urged removal. And that's what I urge here.

Didge wrote:So your only claim and it is a claim to any evidence is based on the actions of 12 people in a Jury. Even though that case was to me clearly negligence, and neither murder or Manslaughter. Ignoring a number of far right terrorists have been convicted and sentenced, residing in jail.

Ignoring the fact countless people have been sentenced for racial hate crimes, racist murder etc.

So not only is your view point absurd, its based on the outcome of one case.

So you advocate discrimination. As you are part of one nation and wish to segregate and in every moral argument, segregation is wrong. As it dvides people and you are thus seeking to divide a people who are cuturally all Americans. You are seeking to segregate based on beliefs.Which means you are activelly discriminating against the vast majority of Americans. Not on their actual beliefs, but your poor invented claim, that they are all racist. Or that a minority voted Trump into the Presidency.

It means you go against every Liberal standard possible going. Making you funementally Illiberal.

They don't work. The Supreme Court gutted the Voting Rights Act of 1965. http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/26/us/supreme-court-ruling.html And, is it lost on you that Trump and Sessions have gutted the Civil Rights Division of the Justice Department? What good is a law with no one to enforce it?

Didge wrote:So you cannot produce a single law for me that has changed to alllow for the active discrimination of African American

We live in unusual times. Changes are afoot. New beginnings are the theme. Donald Trump swore to drain the swamp. He was not alone, as millions of voters agreed with him. We are in keeping with the times.
Didge wrote:No, you live in a time, when you are not accepting Democracy.

A vote has not gone your way and now you want to divide a nation, as once happened before, for the same principles. The Confederacy feared Slavery would end in a future Vote and then seperated from the rest of the US. They fundementally disagreed with Democracy. You are doing the same here, only that Trump has been elected and you reffuse to except the decision and only now because he has been elected, want to seperate and say fuck you to the rest of the people of the US.

The US has 323.1 million. 62 million voted for Trump and many were not racist, they fell for poor fear arguments. You sadly want to admit defeat and retreat away and not stay and stand with the 261 million Americans that did not vote for Trump

That is cowardice

We'll let Trump take care of his swamp on the east coast; but he has legitimized our opportunity to do the same thing on the west coast. What we need to drain--or, perhaps the better word is flush--is the rest of the country. We'll miss New York and New England, but the rest we'll set adrift gladly.

What people need to do is easily see how irrational you are being here

I mean even more astounding to show how poor your argument is on claiming basically all Americans is racist. Is the fact the level of hate crimes is relatively low in the US

FBI states show 5,850 hate crimes for 2015

https://ucr.fbi.gov/hate-crime/2015/topic-pages/incidentsandoffenses_final

56.9% were motivated by race/ethnicity/ancestry bias.

That is roughly 3504 racial hate crimes.

Out of a population of 323.1 million

Now in the Uk in the same year of 2015

There was 52,528 hate crimes with 80% of them racially motivated

Which a population of 65 million

And the Uk is one of the most welcoming places in the world.

I mean if the US is racist, then there seems to be a complete lack of evidence for your claim.

by Original Quill Sat Oct 14, 2017 5:27 pm

Crazy like a fox, eh? I live on the fringes of new ideas, and change. I am the antithesis of the sleepy old conservative.

But incessant inventiveness is how we survive. Mechanical engineering, medical science, even nuclear physics, and finally politics and economics...all are a benefit that advances mankind.

New ideas, new thinking...once lonely, then accepted, then our savior.

by Guest Sat Oct 14, 2017 5:29 pm

Original Quill wrote:Crazy like a fox, eh? I live on the fringes of new ideas, and change. I am the antithesis of the sleepy old conservative.

But incessant inventiveness is how we survive. Mechanical engineering, medical science, even nuclear physics, and finally politics and economics...all are a benefit that advances mankind.

New ideas, new thinking...once lonely, then accepted, then our savior.

It seems to me you are going backwards, when the world needs to come together.

You do not solve problems by pushing them away.

That is what you are seeking to do and that has never worked

Like I say, you make racism tens times worse by your poor inaccurate claims on people

by Original Quill Sat Oct 14, 2017 5:49 pm

Didge wrote:
Original Quill wrote:Crazy like a fox, eh? I live on the fringes of new ideas, and change. I am the antithesis of the sleepy old conservative.

But incessant inventiveness is how we survive. Mechanical engineering, medical science, even nuclear physics, and finally politics and economics...all are a benefit that advances mankind.

New ideas, new thinking...once lonely, then accepted, then our savior.

It seems to me you are going backwards, when the world needs to come together.

"Coming together?" "Drifting apart?" These are cycles that ebb and flow.

Didge wrote:You do not solve problems by pushing them away.

Slow down now. Isn't excising cancer a kind of problem solving? Don't we evacuate citizens where there are fires? Isn't damming a troublesome river a form of pushing back the water? I think anytime there is an evil, one technique is to remove it from our presence.

Sometimes there is 'therapeutic' removal, too. Leaving the US alone with it's criminal self-talk, might be beneficial for them...as well as safety for us.

Didge wrote:That is what you are seeking to do and that has never worked

Yes, and it has worked, stupendously. The US once a part of the British empire, and we pushed away, to our great benefit.

by Guest Sat Oct 14, 2017 6:22 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Didge wrote:

It seems to me you are going backwards, when the world needs to come together.

"Coming together?" "Drifting apart?" These are cycles that ebb and flow.

Didge wrote:And that proves what exactly?
That you are ruled by fear and thus wish to seperate and thus cannot solve problems

Slow down now. Isn't excising cancer a kind of problem solving? Don't we evacuate citizens where there are fires? Isn't damming a troublesome river a form of pushing back the water? I think anytime there is an evil, one technique is to remove it from our presence.

Didge wrote:So basically you are condemning the entire US people based on a view and not any evidence and then compare them to a cancer

Wow

How much do you sound like Hitler in regards to his views on the Jews

So you are claiming like he did, by castigating countless people as evil. Both of you looking to blame a group of people and remove that problem. The only difference between your view and Hitlers, is your methods. Is that you want to push a problem away through basically cleansing through seperation and he tried to murder away a problem that never existed. He sought to blame Jews and eradicate them due to hate.

There is no difference in your hate speech here

You advocate discrimination on beliefs

Sometimes there is 'therapeutic' removal, too. Leaving the US alone with it's criminal self-talk, might be beneficial for them...as well as safety for us.

Didge wrote:You mean like Hitler did with the Jews?

You see your arguments is no different to some on the far right, who want to deport people based on their beliefs.

Like I say, the Far Right and Far Left clearly follow the same beliefs. The only difference is on who they accept within their beliefs and who they hate.

Yes, and it has worked, stupendously. The US once a part of the British empire, and we pushed away, to our great benefit.

At the cost of many lives, because people could not resolve their differences.
I hardly say that is a good example, when many suffered.

And it could have easily been avoided as many citizens wanted to be a part of the UK. Where the British screwed this up, as they would not listen, but now have a good relationship do they not?

You do understand that was about representation?

Where they had none, and if they did, no war would have started.

So they were denied Democracy, where you have not been denied Democracy. You are just showing an example of bad sour grapes. Not getting your own way.

Showing you want to seperate and care little for hundreds of Millions of other US citizens.

Its selfish and born from the same piss poor view, that saw the rise of Fascism and Nazism.

by Original Quill Sat Oct 14, 2017 7:05 pm

Didge wrote:At the cost of many lives, because people could not resolve their differences.
I hardly say that is a good example, when many suffered.

And it could have easily been avoided as many citizens wanted to be a part of the UK. Where the British screwed this up, as they would not listen, but now have a good relationship do they not?

Exact same situation, isn't it? Charlottesville was not listening. Trump was not listening. Congress was not listening. The United States is not listening.

The nation is hopelessly divided. You know what they say: if you can't lick 'em, join 'em. Make the divided nation a permanent fixture.

The only other thing that needs to be addressed is this notion of violence. There need be no civil war. Look at your country, offering Scotland a peaceful devolution. We are in the age where not everything needs to have a violent solution.

And do remember, a war in the US would inevitably a nuclear war. Both sides have them. Hell, the nukes are made at the Livermore Labs, which is a part of the University of California. All of the nuclear scientists are professors at the University of California...and they don't like Trump and Republicans, either. No. Korea and Iran would be peanuts in comparison. It would be akin to a war with China or Russia.

What that does is enhance the possibility of a peaceful solution to our own devolution. Two nuclear powers going to war would bring us to brinksmanship, the same thing that made war impossible with the Soviets.

There would be no choice but to bring about the separation peacefully.

by Guest Sat Oct 14, 2017 7:32 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Didge wrote:At the cost of many lives, because people could not resolve their differences.
I hardly say that is a good example, when many suffered.

And it could have easily been avoided as many citizens wanted to be a part of the UK. Where the British screwed this up, as they would not listen, but now have a good relationship do they not?

Exact same situation, isn't it? Charlottesville was not listening. Trump was not listening. Congress was not listening. The United States is not listening.
Didge wrote:Wow

So based off a terrorist act, you are using this to support the view to seperate yourself from the rest of the US and cast the entire US people comparable to one Far Right terrorist.

Is that not the exact same thing that Far right extremists argue to to deport all Muslims, based off terrorist attacks?

Again you make yourself comparable to the same methodoly as the Far right

The nation is hopelessly divided. You know what they say: if you can't lick 'em, join 'em. Make the divided nation a permanent fixture.
Didge wrote:And yet more defeatism. Civil rights did not come about because of such defeatless attitude.

That is your main problem here, in that you want to run away from problems.

You do not want to tackle a problem like prejudice beliefs, you want to embrace the same principle and advocate prejudice and discrimination based on beliefs.

Where you are not dealing with ISIS here, but a Democratic nation.

You are acting exactly like the Confederacy, not happy with a Presidential election result. To then go against Democracy and divide a nation of Americans. All dues to your selfishness and hate.

The only other thing that needs to be addressed is this notion of violence. There need be no civil war. Look at your country, offering Scotland a peaceful devolution. We are in the age where not everything needs to have a violent solution.
Didge wrote:Scotland decided to remain, that was a Democratic vote.
You though are going against a Democratic vote.
Which you never would have made a view to seperate if Clinton had become President

I agree there need not be a violent solution, by speration is not going to solve the problem of racism. As you would continue to still have racism with your new state.

As you are attempting to push it away

That does not work

And do remember, a war in the US would inevitably a nuclear war. Both sides have them. Hell, the nukes are made at the Livermore Labs, which is a part of the University of California. All of the nuclear scientists are professors at the University of California...and they don't like Trump and Republicans, either. No. Korea and Iran would be peanuts in comparison. It would be akin to a war with China or Russia.
Didge wrote:Would it?
Again that is your poor misconception.

Other nations do not have nukes and are not friendly

The US and Britain have maintained a friendly relation and its not based on nukes but the fact they are very similar culturally and on human rights

What that does is enhance the possibility of a peaceful solution to our own devolution. Two nuclear powers going to war would bring us to brinksmanship, the same thing that made war impossible with the Soviets.
Didge wrote:All you are doing is ensuring another war and it would be no doubt California that starts this and all because they simple cannot accept Democracy

There would be no choice but to bring about the separation peacefully.

So you claim.

All I have seen, is that your reasoning is the exact same as the far right.

Again the only difference being in who you accept and who you do not accept.

by Original Quill Sat Oct 14, 2017 9:20 pm

Didge wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

Exact same situation, isn't it? Charlottesville was not listening. Trump was not listening. Congress was not listening. The United States is not listening.

The nation is hopelessly divided. You know what they say: if you can't lick 'em, join 'em. Make the divided nation a permanent fixture.

The only other thing that needs to be addressed is this notion of violence. There need be no civil war. Look at your country, offering Scotland a peaceful devolution. We are in the age where not everything needs to have a violent solution.

And do remember, a war in the US would inevitably a nuclear war. Both sides have them. Hell, the nukes are made at the Livermore Labs, which is a part of the University of California. All of the nuclear scientists are professors at the University of California...and they don't like Trump and Republicans, either. No. Korea and Iran would be peanuts in comparison. It would be akin to a war with China or Russia.

What that does is enhance the possibility of a peaceful solution to our own devolution. Two nuclear powers going to war would bring us to brinksmanship, the same thing that made war impossible with the Soviets.

There would be no choice but to bring about the separation peacefully.

So you claim.

All I have seen, is that your reasoning is the exact same as the far right.

Again the only difference being in who you accept and who you do not accept.

Well, yes...there's a lot of similarity in that both sides are at their wits end. But that is exactly my point: it's time for a real separation. There's no more getting along, pretending that there is any ground for unity. It's over.

Once you come to that conclusion, there's no more Pollyanish talk about unity. It's down to business. Work out the details and go...

by Guest Sat Oct 14, 2017 9:25 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Didge wrote:

So you claim.

All I have seen, is that your reasoning is the exact same as the far right.

Again the only difference being in who you accept and who you do not accept.

Well, yes...there's a lot of similarity in that both sides are at their wits end. But that is exactly my point: it's time for a real separation. There's no more getting along, pretending that there is any ground for unity. It's over.

Once you come to that conclusion, there's no more Pollyanish talk about unity. It's down to business. Work out the details and go...

So you admit to being a defeatest.

That you are happy to absorb the views of Trump yourself and emulate them by creating a wall by new geographical boundaries and devide more people. Based on a prejudice you both have.

You insult every person that fought for the equality for people and their civil rights, by you yourself advocating prejudice and discrimination yourself.

They would be turning over in their graves and casting you alongside those who stood against civil rights.

You fail to see that.

by Original Quill Sat Oct 14, 2017 10:06 pm

I wouldn't call it defeatism. I would call it New Beginnings...a cause for high optimism.

Think of it! We liberals finally get to put away the gun debate; racial divisiveness; healthcare; endless warmongering. We leave behind the macho persona of the right, and the inevitable sexism they relish. We finally can have a calm, sensible society...rid of all the selfish themes of the right.

by Guest Sat Oct 14, 2017 10:15 pm

Original Quill wrote:I wouldn't call it defeatism. I would call it New Beginnings...a cause for high optimism.

Think of it! We liberals finally get to put away the gun debate; racial divisiveness; healthcare; endless warmongering. We leave behind the macho persona of the right, and the inevitable sexism they relish. We finally can have a calm, sensible society...rid of all the negative themes of the right.

New beginnings like a Third Reich by any chance?

So you mean you Illiberals become one with what you dislike the most. Those prejudiced.

You also misguidely think that seperation from the rest of the US would prevent racism, gun crime, sexism etc. When you are still dealing with people who have different beliefs.

What you are effectivelly saying, is that you want to classify people criminally based on their beliefs and that only people that agree with you, can be citizens.

How much do you sound like the Theocracy of Saudi Arabia?

by Tommy Monk Sun Oct 15, 2017 1:37 am

eddie wrote:Las Vegas sheriff: gunman planned to survive and may have had help

Agent overseeing FBI investigation says ‘theories are great’ after sheriff speculates that Stephen Paddock could have had assistance

Paul LewisFirst published on Thursday 5 October 2017 03.45 BST

Las Vegas police said there was evidence gunman Stephen Paddock intended to survive and escape his deadly attack at a country music festival on Sunday, and revealed that he also rented an apartment overlooking another music festival that took place in the city the previous weekend.

The disclosures were among several new details revealed by Sheriff Joseph Lombardo, who also strayed into speculation that the man believed responsible for the deadliest mass shooting in modern US history had help.

“Do you think this was all accomplished on his own?” Lombardo asked, noting the arsenal of weapons the shooter amassed, and the discovery of explosives in his car. He added: “You’ve got to make the assumption he had to have some help at some point.”

He said that the suspected killer, a 64-year-old retiree and gambler, rented a luxury room through Airbnb overlooking the Life is Beautiful music festival, another Las Vegas festival which occurred the week before the Route 91 Harvest music festival he eventually targeted.

Lombardo also said he had seen evidence that Paddock may have intended to survive his killing spree from the Mandalay Bay Hotel and Casino, which he used as a base for the attack. The sheriff did not say what the evidence was.

The remarks were made at press conference that raised as many questions as it answered and suggested that, 72 hours after the attack, after extensively interviewing Paddock’s girlfriend, Marilou Danley, and examining his computers, investigators remain genuinely baffled about his motives.

Paddock’s killing spree resulted in 58 victims and injured at least 489 people. The updated casualty numbers were the most recent given by authorities on Wednesday night.

Lombardo had previously said law enforcement believed Paddock had perpetrated “a solo act”. But on Wednesday, he appeared to change his position. His speculation about the possibility Paddock was aided came after an exchange in which he conceded investigators had not been able to identify any “person of interest” other than Danley.

He said investigators were, however, pressing to find others who may have been involved. It was possible that Paddock was “a super guy” who was “working out all of this on his own”, Lombardo said. But he added: “It would be hard for me to believe that.”

The comment appeared to earn a veiled rebuke from the agent overseeing the FBI’s investigation.

“Theories are great and everyone can have a theory,” said Aaron Rouse, who runs the bureau’s Las Vegas division, and took to the lectern immediately after the sheriff’s comments. “But I need to deal with facts. The sheriff needs to deal with facts.” He added: “He’s not going to make assumptions. I’m not going to make assumptions.”

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/oct/04/las-vegas-gunman-stephen-paddock-survive-police

Yes... and the 'facts' don't fit...!!!

There is a lot more to all this...!!!

by Original Quill Sun Oct 15, 2017 2:58 am

Didge wrote:New beginnings like a Third Reich by any chance?

Naw, that's Europe...the old world. rotting at the core.

New beginnings is like a new love relationship...or a new business, with people rushing to the door. It's about fresh flowers and early morning dew. It's about traveling to new places, meeting new friends. It's new beginnings.

by Guest Sun Oct 15, 2017 8:45 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Didge wrote:New beginnings like a Third Reich by any chance?

Naw, that's Europe...the old world. rotting at the core.

New beginnings is like a new love relationship...or a new business, with people rushing to the door. It's about fresh flowers and early morning dew. It's about traveling to new places, meeting new friends. It's new
beginnings.

Sounds very much like the Third Reich

by Original Quill Mon Oct 16, 2017 3:46 am

Didge wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

Naw, that's Europe...the old world. rotting at the core.

New beginnings is like a new love relationship...or a new business, with people rushing to the door. It's about fresh flowers and early morning dew. It's about traveling to new places, meeting new friends. It's new beginnings.

Sounds very much like the Third Reich

You shoulda gone to college and studied history. Third Reich was about genocide. New beginnings is like the west and the fresh air of the Pacific. Laughing

by Lurker Mon Oct 16, 2017 10:10 pm

http://www.gregpalast.com/went-school-vegas-shooter/

I went to school with the Vegas shooter

Friday, October 13, 2017

By Greg Palast

[Los Angeles] When we were at Francis Polytechnic High in Sun Valley, Steve Paddock and I were required to take electrical shop class. At Poly and our junior high, we were required to take metal shop so we could work the drill presses at the GM plant. We took drafting. Drafting like in "blueprint drawing."

Paddock. Palast. We sat next to each other at those drafting tables with our triangular rulers and #2 pencils so we could get jobs at Lockheed as draftsmen drawing blueprints of fighter jets. Or do tool-and-dye cutting to make refrigerator handles at GM where they assembled Frigidaire refrigerators and Chevys.

But we weren’t going to fly the fighter jets. Somewhere at Phillips Andover Academy, a dumbbell with an oil well for a daddy was going to go to Yale and then fly our fighter jets over Texas. We weren’t going to go to Yale. We were going to go to Vietnam. Then, when we came back, if we still had two hands, we went to GM or Lockheed.

(It’s no coincidence that much of the student population at our school was Hispanic.)

But if you went to "Bevvie" - Beverly Hills High - or Hollywood High, you didn’t take metal shop. You took Advanced Placement French. You took Advanced Placement Calculus. We didn’t have Advanced Placement French. We didn’t have French anything. We weren’t Placed, and we didn’t Advance.

Steve was a math wizard. He should have gone to UCLA, to Stanford. But our classes didn’t qualify him for anything other than LA Valley College and Cal State Northridge. Any dumbbell could get in. And it was nearly free. That’s where Steve was expected to go, and he went with his big math-whiz brain. And then Steve went to Lockheed, like we were supposed to. Until Lockheed shut down plants in 1988. Steve left, took the buy-out.

And after NAFTA, GM closed too.

Land of Opportunity? Well, tell me: who gets those opportunities?

Some of you can and some of you can’t imagine a life where you just weren’t give a fair chance. Where the smarter you are, the more painful it gets, because you have your face pressed against the window, watching THEM. THEY got the connections to Stanford. THEY get the gold mine. WE get the shaft.

This is where Paddock and Palast were bred: Sun Valley, the anus of Los Angeles. Literally. It’s where the sewerage plant is. It’s in a trench below the Hollywood Hills, where the smog settles into a kind of puke yellow soup. Here’s where LA dumps its urine and the losers they only remember when they need cheap labor and cheap soldiers when the gusanos don’t supply enough from Mexico.

I’ll take you to Sun Valley. It’s in my film, The Best Democracy Money Can Buy. In the movie, a kind of dream scene, the actress Shailene Woodley takes me back to my family’s old busted home in the weeds and then down San Fernando Road, near Steve's place. Take a look, America. Along the tracks that once led in to the GM plant, you see a bunch of campers that the union men bought for vacations. Now they live in them.

No, Steve’s brain was too big to end up on the tracks. He lived in empty apartments in crappy buildings he bought, then in a barren tract house outside Reno. I laugh when they say he was "rich." He wanted to be THEM, to have their stuff. He got close.

It’s reported that Steve was a "professional gambler." That’s another laugh. He was addicted to numbing his big brain by sitting 14 hours a day in the dark in front of video poker machines. He was a loser. Have you ever met a gambler who said they were a Professional Loser?

It’s fair to ask me: Why didn’t I end up in a hotel room with a bump-stock AR-15 and 5,000 rounds of high velocity bullets?

Because I have a job, a career, an OBSESSION: to hunt down THEM, the daddy-pampered pricks who did this to us, the grinning billionaire jackals that make a profit off the slow decomposition of the lives I grew up with.

But I’m telling you, that I know it’s a very fine line, and lots of crazy luck, that divided my path from Paddock’s.

Dear Reader: The publication that pulled this story at the last moment was plain scared — that they’d be accused of approving murder.

Paddock slaughtered good people, coldly, with intense cruelty, destroying lives and hundreds of families forever. If you think I’m making up some excuse for him, then I give up.

But also this: The editor of the Beverly Hills-based publication, a Stanford grad, could not understand that, just like veterans of the Vietnam war who suffer from PTSD even today, so too, losers of the class war can be driven mad by a PTSD that lingers, that gnaws away, their whole lives.

What happens to a dream deferred? Does it ...fester like a sore? Does it stink like rotten meat? Sag...like a heavy load?

Or does it explode?

Steve, you created more horrors than your cornered life could ever justify.

But, I just have to tell you, Steve: I get it.

by Guest Tue Oct 17, 2017 2:11 pm

Lurker wrote:http://www.gregpalast.com/went-school-vegas-shooter/

I went to school with the Vegas shooter

Friday, October 13, 2017

By Greg Palast

[Los Angeles] When we were at Francis Polytechnic High in Sun Valley, Steve Paddock and I were required to take electrical shop class. At Poly and our junior high, we were required to take metal shop so we could work the drill presses at the GM plant. We took drafting. Drafting like in "blueprint drawing."

Paddock. Palast. We sat next to each other at those drafting tables with our triangular rulers and #2 pencils so we could get jobs at Lockheed as draftsmen drawing blueprints of fighter jets. Or do tool-and-dye cutting to make refrigerator handles at GM where they assembled Frigidaire refrigerators and Chevys.

But we weren’t going to fly the fighter jets. Somewhere at Phillips Andover Academy, a dumbbell with an oil well for a daddy was going to go to Yale and then fly our fighter jets over Texas. We weren’t going to go to Yale. We were going to go to Vietnam. Then, when we came back, if we still had two hands, we went to GM or Lockheed.

(It’s no coincidence that much of the student population at our school was Hispanic.)

But if you went to "Bevvie" - Beverly Hills High - or Hollywood High, you didn’t take metal shop. You took Advanced Placement French. You took Advanced Placement Calculus. We didn’t have Advanced Placement French. We didn’t have French anything. We weren’t Placed, and we didn’t Advance.

Steve was a math wizard. He should have gone to UCLA, to Stanford. But our classes didn’t qualify him for anything other than LA Valley College and Cal State Northridge. Any dumbbell could get in. And it was nearly free. That’s where Steve was expected to go, and he went with his big math-whiz brain. And then Steve went to Lockheed, like we were supposed to. Until Lockheed shut down plants in 1988. Steve left, took the buy-out.

And after NAFTA, GM closed too.

Land of Opportunity? Well, tell me: who gets those opportunities?

Some of you can and some of you can’t imagine a life where you just weren’t give a fair chance. Where the smarter you are, the more painful it gets, because you have your face pressed against the window, watching THEM. THEY got the connections to Stanford. THEY get the gold mine. WE get the shaft.

This is where Paddock and Palast were bred: Sun Valley, the anus of Los Angeles. Literally. It’s where the sewerage plant is. It’s in a trench below the Hollywood Hills, where the smog settles into a kind of puke yellow soup. Here’s where LA dumps its urine and the losers they only remember when they need cheap labor and cheap soldiers when the gusanos don’t supply enough from Mexico.

I’ll take you to Sun Valley. It’s in my film, The Best Democracy Money Can Buy. In the movie, a kind of dream scene, the actress Shailene Woodley takes me back to my family’s old busted home in the weeds and then down San Fernando Road, near Steve's place. Take a look, America. Along the tracks that once led in to the GM plant, you see a bunch of campers that the union men bought for vacations. Now they live in them.

No, Steve’s brain was too big to end up on the tracks. He lived in empty apartments in crappy buildings he bought, then in a barren tract house outside Reno. I laugh when they say he was "rich." He wanted to be THEM, to have their stuff. He got close.

It’s reported that Steve was a "professional gambler." That’s another laugh. He was addicted to numbing his big brain by sitting 14 hours a day in the dark in front of video poker machines. He was a loser. Have you ever met a gambler who said they were a Professional Loser?

It’s fair to ask me: Why didn’t I end up in a hotel room with a bump-stock AR-15 and 5,000 rounds of high velocity bullets?

Because I have a job, a career, an OBSESSION: to hunt down THEM, the daddy-pampered pricks who did this to us, the grinning billionaire jackals that make a profit off the slow decomposition of the lives I grew up with.

But I’m telling you, that I know it’s a very fine line, and lots of crazy luck, that divided my path from Paddock’s.

Dear Reader: The publication that pulled this story at the last moment was plain scared — that they’d be accused of approving murder.

Paddock slaughtered good people, coldly, with intense cruelty, destroying lives and hundreds of families forever. If you think I’m making up some excuse for him, then I give up.

But also this: The editor of the Beverly Hills-based publication, a Stanford grad, could not understand that, just like veterans of the Vietnam war who suffer from PTSD even today, so too, losers of the class war can be driven mad by a PTSD that lingers, that gnaws away, their whole lives.

What happens to a dream deferred? Does it ...fester like a sore? Does it stink like rotten meat? Sag...like a heavy load?

Or does it explode?

Steve, you created more horrors than your cornered life could ever justify.

But, I just have to tell you, Steve: I get it.

That Lurker, as and extremely powerful piece and a total indictment of capitalism.

by Guest Tue Oct 17, 2017 2:18 pm

sassy wrote:
Lurker wrote:http://www.gregpalast.com/went-school-vegas-shooter/

I went to school with the Vegas shooter

Friday, October 13, 2017

By Greg Palast

That Lurker, as and extremely powerful piece and a total indictment of capitalism.

is that the came capitalism that gave us the internet that you so hypocritically use??

by 'Wolfie Tue Oct 17, 2017 3:33 pm

smelly-bandit wrote:
sassy wrote:

That Lurker, as and extremely powerful piece and a total indictment of capitalism.

is that the came capitalism that gave us the internet that you so hypocritically use??

More ignorant nonsense from SmellyShillyBumster's rabid imagination...

"Capitalism" didn't create the Internet..

The US military and NASA contracted a couple of universities and a couple of computer companies to develop a information/computer network; where it then spread through universities, certain government departments and big computer companies.

Until the "World Wide Web" software was developed in the late 1980s to allow the wider world to access the Internet -- which is where "capitalism" picked up the ball and ran with it..

by Guest Tue Oct 17, 2017 3:42 pm

WhoseYourWolfie wrote:
smelly-bandit wrote:

is that the came capitalism that gave us the internet that you so hypocritically use??

More ignorant nonsense from SmellyShillyBumster's rabid imagination...

"Capitalism" didn't create the Internet..

The US military and NASA contracted a couple of universities and a couple of computer companies to develop a information/computer network; where it then spread through universities, certain government departments and big computer companies.

Until the "World Wide Web" software was developed in the late 1980s to allow the wider world to access the Internet -- which is where "capitalism" picked up the ball and ran with it..

the US military and NASA??

i take it those are the US military and NASA of socialist Venezuela and not the same US military and NASA of capitalist America??

by Original Quill Tue Oct 17, 2017 3:58 pm

smelly-bandit wrote:
WhoseYourWolfie wrote:

More ignorant nonsense from SmellyShillyBumster's rabid imagination...

"Capitalism" didn't create the Internet..

The US military and NASA contracted a couple of universities and a couple of computer companies to develop a information/computer network; where it then spread through universities, certain government departments and big computer companies.

Until the "World Wide Web" software was developed in the late 1980s to allow the wider world to access the Internet -- which is where "capitalism" picked up the ball and ran with it..

the US military and NASA??

i take it those are the US military and NASA of socialist Venezuela and not the same US military and NASA of capitalist America??

The US military and NASA are both totally socialist organizations, entirely owned and financed by the people, run by the people and made up of the people. Moreover, of the two universities--UCLA and Stanford--only one is private, and that one is massively financed by the government in its computer science curricula.

One doesn't depend upon a loose, aimless market, motivated by oblique purposes such as profit, when one has important and specific tasks to perform.

by Guest Tue Oct 17, 2017 4:37 pm

Original Quill wrote:
smelly-bandit wrote:

the US military and NASA??

i take it those are the US military and NASA of socialist Venezuela and not the same US military and NASA of capitalist America??

The US military and NASA are both totally socialist organizations, entirely owned and financed by the people, run by the people and made up of the people. Moreover, of the two universities--UCLA and Stanford--only one is private, and that one is massively financed by the government in its computer science curricula.

One doesn't depend upon a loose, aimless market, motivated by oblique purposes such as profit, when one has important and specific tasks to perform.

not really

the US military like the UK military outsources vast amounts of its responsibilities to private contractors, Iraq for example. ever heard of KBR??

the uk navy is almost entirely owned by BAE to the point that naval engineers (trained by BAE instructors) are not even allowed to work on certain systems but have to have BAE contractors to get the job done.

anyway whether its the internet of the laptop/mobile phone she is using, its all capitalism.

the point is that the internet wasn't started by socialism, the only thing socialism starts is poverty

by Original Quill Tue Oct 17, 2017 5:10 pm

SB wrote:not really

the US military like the UK military outsources vast amounts of its responsibilities to private contractors, Iraq for example. ever heard of KBR??

But the military never outsources it’s authority. And least of all is the military given over to market forces or a profit motive. Private contractors are put in their place by the US military. They are paid a lot of money, so they are told by the military to shut up and do their job. Incidentally, they are paid on a cost-plus-fixed-fee (CPFF) basis, so all financial control is in the hands of the military, constantly. This is done to wall-off outside interests from decision-making.

When I worked on the Challenger Crash lawsuit, I was amazed at the amount of control that the US (government) military maintains over its outside contractors. The RFP defines what is needed. The design, if not made by the military, is controlled and always approved by the military. The standard is always “Zero Defects”. And two sets of engineers must constantly work on any design: primary engineers to synthesize and construct the product; and safety engineers to look over the shoulders of the primaries, and assure the product is redundantly safe.

Again, when a population wants something done that is nearer and dearer to the heart—whether military, police, fire or ambulance services—note how it is always done by a government agency. Socialism is the best, by the natural instincts of all mankind throughout the world. It's a natural law: If you want it done well, do it yourself!

by Guest Tue Oct 17, 2017 5:16 pm

Original Quill wrote:
SB wrote:not really

the US military like the UK military outsources vast amounts of its responsibilities to private contractors, Iraq for example. ever heard of KBR??

But the military never outsources it’s authority. And least of all is the military given over to market forces or a profit motive. Private contractors are put in their place by the US military. They are paid a lot of money, so they are told by the military to shut up and do their job. Incidentally, they are paid on a cost-plus-fixed-fee (CPFF) basis, so all financial control is in the hands of the military, constantly. This is done to wall-off outside interests from decision-making.

When I worked on the Challenger Crash lawsuit, I was amazed at the amount of control that the US (government) military maintains over its outside contractors. The RFP defines what is needed. The design, if not made by the military, is controlled and always approved by the military. The standard is always “Zero Defects”. And two sets of engineers must constantly work on any design: primary engineers to synthesize and construct the product; and safety engineers to look over the shoulders of the primaries, and assure the product is redundantly safe.

Again, when a population wants something done that is nearer and dearer to the heart—whether military, police, fire or ambulance services—note how it is always done by a government agency. Socialism is the best, by the natural instincts of all mankind throughout the world. It's a natural law: If you want it done well, do it yourself!

that point is that sassy bemoans capitalism whilst partaking of its fruit.

was it too subtle for you grasp??

by Victorismyhero Tue Oct 17, 2017 5:28 pm

sassy wrote:
Lurker wrote:http://www.gregpalast.com/went-school-vegas-shooter/

I went to school with the Vegas shooter

Friday, October 13, 2017

By Greg Palast

[Los Angeles] When we were at Francis Polytechnic High in Sun Valley, Steve Paddock and I were required to take electrical shop class. At Poly and our junior high, we were required to take metal shop so we could work the drill presses at the GM plant. We took drafting. Drafting like in "blueprint drawing."

Paddock. Palast. We sat next to each other at those drafting tables with our triangular rulers and #2 pencils so we could get jobs at Lockheed as draftsmen drawing blueprints of fighter jets. Or do tool-and-dye cutting to make refrigerator handles at GM where they assembled Frigidaire refrigerators and Chevys.

But we weren’t going to fly the fighter jets. Somewhere at Phillips Andover Academy, a dumbbell with an oil well for a daddy was going to go to Yale and then fly our fighter jets over Texas. We weren’t going to go to Yale. We were going to go to Vietnam. Then, when we came back, if we still had two hands, we went to GM or Lockheed.

(It’s no coincidence that much of the student population at our school was Hispanic.)

But if you went to "Bevvie" - Beverly Hills High - or Hollywood High, you didn’t take metal shop. You took Advanced Placement French. You took Advanced Placement Calculus. We didn’t have Advanced Placement French. We didn’t have French anything. We weren’t Placed, and we didn’t Advance.

Steve was a math wizard. He should have gone to UCLA, to Stanford. But our classes didn’t qualify him for anything other than LA Valley College and Cal State Northridge. Any dumbbell could get in. And it was nearly free. That’s where Steve was expected to go, and he went with his big math-whiz brain. And then Steve went to Lockheed, like we were supposed to. Until Lockheed shut down plants in 1988. Steve left, took the buy-out.

And after NAFTA, GM closed too.

Land of Opportunity? Well, tell me: who gets those opportunities?

Some of you can and some of you can’t imagine a life where you just weren’t give a fair chance. Where the smarter you are, the more painful it gets, because you have your face pressed against the window, watching THEM. THEY got the connections to Stanford. THEY get the gold mine. WE get the shaft.

This is where Paddock and Palast were bred: Sun Valley, the anus of Los Angeles. Literally. It’s where the sewerage plant is. It’s in a trench below the Hollywood Hills, where the smog settles into a kind of puke yellow soup. Here’s where LA dumps its urine and the losers they only remember when they need cheap labor and cheap soldiers when the gusanos don’t supply enough from Mexico.

I’ll take you to Sun Valley. It’s in my film, The Best Democracy Money Can Buy. In the movie, a kind of dream scene, the actress Shailene Woodley takes me back to my family’s old busted home in the weeds and then down San Fernando Road, near Steve's place. Take a look, America. Along the tracks that once led in to the GM plant, you see a bunch of campers that the union men bought for vacations. Now they live in them.

No, Steve’s brain was too big to end up on the tracks. He lived in empty apartments in crappy buildings he bought, then in a barren tract house outside Reno. I laugh when they say he was "rich." He wanted to be THEM, to have their stuff. He got close.

It’s reported that Steve was a "professional gambler." That’s another laugh. He was addicted to numbing his big brain by sitting 14 hours a day in the dark in front of video poker machines. He was a loser. Have you ever met a gambler who said they were a Professional Loser?

It’s fair to ask me: Why didn’t I end up in a hotel room with a bump-stock AR-15 and 5,000 rounds of high velocity bullets?

Because I have a job, a career, an OBSESSION: to hunt down THEM, the daddy-pampered pricks who did this to us, the grinning billionaire jackals that make a profit off the slow decomposition of the lives I grew up with.

But I’m telling you, that I know it’s a very fine line, and lots of crazy luck, that divided my path from Paddock’s.

Dear Reader: The publication that pulled this story at the last moment was plain scared — that they’d be accused of approving murder.

Paddock slaughtered good people, coldly, with intense cruelty, destroying lives and hundreds of families forever. If you think I’m making up some excuse for him, then I give up.

But also this: The editor of the Beverly Hills-based publication, a Stanford grad, could not understand that, just like veterans of the Vietnam war who suffer from PTSD even today, so too, losers of the class war can be driven mad by a PTSD that lingers, that gnaws away, their whole lives.

What happens to a dream deferred? Does it ...fester like a sore? Does it stink like rotten meat? Sag...like a heavy load?

Or does it explode?

Steve, you created more horrors than your cornered life could ever justify.

But, I just have to tell you, Steve: I get it.

That Lurker, as and extremely powerful piece and a total indictment of capitalism.

MY MY fancy that , justifying a L/W terrorist. You can "see where he's comming from" can you?

You can "understand his motive" even ?

Hmmmmm

by Guest Tue Oct 17, 2017 5:46 pm

Lord Foul wrote:
sassy wrote:

That Lurker, as and extremely powerful piece and a total indictment of capitalism.

MY MY fancy that , justifying a L/W terrorist. You can "see where he's comming from" can you?

You can "understand his motive" even ?

Hmmmmm

Oh do grow up, I'm talking about the writing. Nobody knows why he shot up the place.

by Guest Tue Oct 17, 2017 7:27 pm

''Some of you can and some of you can’t imagine a life where you just weren’t give a fair chance. Where the smarter you are, the more painful it gets, because you have your face pressed against the window, watching THEM. THEY got the connections to Stanford. THEY get the gold mine. WE get the shaft.''

what a load of old ''poor me''. This is a case of compare and despair and he thinks he has the answer as to why Paddock did it. ''I get it''. Cobblers does he, this is just his own personal whinge

i should imagine most average people feel like that about our snotty politicians who barely have a functioning brain between the whole damn lot of them and yet seem to be able to have everything, flout the rules when they like and basically talk down to the rest of us.

do we all go around shooting folk because of it?

capitalism creates jobs, creates competition and people can strive to achieve. corporatism not so good imo

by Guest Tue Oct 17, 2017 7:44 pm

gelico wrote:

''Some of you can and some of you can’t imagine a life where you just weren’t give a fair chance. Where the smarter you are, the more painful it gets, because you have your face pressed against the window, watching THEM. THEY got the connections to Stanford. THEY get the gold mine. WE get the shaft.''

what a load of old ''poor me''. This is a case of compare and despair and he thinks he has the answer as to why Paddock did it. ''I get it''. Cobblers does he, this is just his own personal whinge

i should imagine most average people feel like that about our snotty politicians who barely have a functioning brain between the whole damn lot of them and yet seem to be able to have everything, flout the rules when they like and basically talk down to the rest of us.

do we all go around shooting folk because of it?

capitalism creates jobs, creates competition and people can strive to achieve. corporatism not so good imo

Las Vegas shooting: Gunman 'identified as 64-year-old white male' - Page 9 I_hate10

by 'Wolfie Wed Oct 18, 2017 2:09 am

smelly-bandit wrote:
WhoseYourWolfie wrote:

More ignorant nonsense from SmellyShillyBumster's rabid imagination...

"Capitalism" didn't create the Internet..

The US military and NASA contracted a couple of universities and a couple of computer companies to develop a information/computer network; where it then spread through universities, certain government departments and big computer companies.

Until the "World Wide Web" software was developed in the late 1980s to allow the wider world to access the Internet -- which is where "capitalism" picked up the ball and ran with it..

the US military and NASA??

i take it those are the US military and NASA of socialist Venezuela and not the same US military and NASA of capitalist America??

"Capitalism" entered the equation in the 1980s...

15 -->> 25 years after the development and evolution of the Internet itself, depending on whether you date it from the original "intra-net" systems of the 1960s, or the proper "Internet" during the 1970s..

Your statement would have been more factually correct if you had used the phrase "World Wide Web" rather than "Internet".

Were you one if those who used to believe that "Bill Gates invented the Internet", Smelly' ?

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