War in Virginia

The New York Times wrote:Car Hits Crowd After White Nationalist Rally in Charlottesville Ends in Violence
By SHERYL GAY STOLBERG and BRIAN M. ROSENTHALAUG. 12, 2017

CHARLOTTESVILLE, Va. — Violence erupted on Saturday as hundreds of white nationalists had gathered here for a rally and clashed with counterprotesters, resulting in at least one death and prompting the governor to declare a state of emergency.

After the rally at a city park was dispersed, a car plowed into a crowd near the city’s downtown mall, killing at least one person and injuring at least 19 others, according to a spokeswoman for the University of Virginia Medical Center. The authorities did not immediately say whether the episode was related to the white nationalists’ demonstration, but several witnesses and video of the scene suggested that it might have been intentional.

Emergency medical personnel treated eight people, the Charlottesville Police Department said. It was not immediately clear how severely they had been hurt. Several area hospitals did not return telephone calls seeking information.

Witnesses said a crowd of counterdemonstrators, jubilant because the white nationalists had left, was moving up Fourth Street, near the mall, when a gray sports car came down the road and accelerated, mowing down several people and hurling at least two in the air.

“It was probably the scariest thing I’ve ever seen in my life,” said Robert Armengol, who was at the scene reporting for a podcast he hosts with students at the University of Virginia. “After that it was pandemonium. The car hit reverse and sped and everybody who was up the street in my direction started running.”

Saturday afternoon, after initially issuing a brief denunciation on Twitter, President Trump, speaking at the start of a veterans’ event at his golf club in Bedminister, N.J., again addressed what he described as “the terrible events unfolding in Charlottesville, Virginia.”

In his comments, President Trump condemned the bloody protests, but he did not specifically criticize the white nationalist rally and its neo-Nazi slogans beyond blaming “hatred, bigotry and violence on many sides.”

“It’s been going on for a long time in our country, it’s not Donald Trump, it’s not Barack Obama,” said Mr. Trump, adding that he had been in contact with Virginia officials. After calling for the “swift restoration of law and order,” he offered a call for unity among Americans of “all races, creeds and colors.”

The demonstration, which both organizers and critics had said was the largest gathering of white nationalists in recent years, was organized to protest the planned removal of a statue of Robert E. Lee from a city park that once bore the name of the Confederate general, but was renamed Emancipation Park.

The turmoil in Charlottesville began with a march Friday night by white nationalists on the campus of the University of Virginia and escalated Saturday morning as demonstrators from both sides gathered in the park. Waving Confederate flags, chanting Nazi-era slogans, wearing helmets and carrying shields, the white nationalists converged on the Lee statue and began chanting phrases like “You will not replace us” and “Jews will not replace us.”

Hundreds of counterprotesters — religious leaders, Black Lives Matter activists and anti-fascist groups known as “antifa” — quickly surrounded the crowd, singing spirituals, chanting and carrying their own signs.

The morning started peacefully, with the white nationalists gathering in McIntire Park, outside downtown, and the counterdemonstrators — including Cornel R. West, the Harvard University professor and political activist — gathering at the First Baptist Church, a historically African-American church here. Professor West, who addressed the group at a sunrise prayer service, said he had come “bearing witness to love and justice in the face of white supremacy.”

At McIntire Park, the white nationalists waved Confederate flags and other banners. As a photographer took pictures, one of them, who gave his name only as Ted because he said he might want to run for political office some day, said he was from Missouri, and added, “I’m tired of seeing white people pushed around.”

But by 11 a.m., after both sides had made their way to Emancipation Park, the scene had exploded into taunting, shoving and outright brawling.

Barricades encircling the park and separating the two sides began to come down, and the police temporarily retreated. People were seen clubbing one another in the streets, and pepper spray filled the air. One of the white nationalists left the park bleeding, his head wrapped in gauze.

Declaring the gathering an unlawful assembly, the police had cleared the area before noon, and the Virginia National Guard arrived as officers began arresting some who remained. But fears lingered that the altercation would start again nearby, as demonstrators dispersed in smaller groups.

Within an hour, politicians, including Gov. Terry McAuliffe, a Democrat, and the House speaker, Paul D. Ryan of Wisconsin, a Republican, had condemned the violence.

The first public response from the White House came from the first lady, Melania Trump, who wrote on Twitter: “Our country encourages freedom of speech, but let’s communicate w/o hate in our hearts. No good comes from violence.”

Attorney General Jeff Sessions said Justice Department agents would support local and state officials in an investigation of Saturday’s events.

“This kind of violence is totally contrary to American values and can never be tolerated,” Mr. Sessions said in a statement.

After the rally was dispersed, its organizer, Jason Kessler, who calls himself a “white advocate,” complained in an interview that his group had been “forced into a very chaotic situation.” He added, “The police were supposed to be there protecting us and they stood down.”

The street fights were the latest in a series of tense dramas unfolding across the United States over plans to remove statues and other historical markers of the Confederacy. The battles have been intensified by the election of Mr. Trump, who enjoys fervent support from white nationalists.

Adding to the turmoil, the Federal Aviation Administration said late Saturday that a Virginia State Police helicopter had crashed about seven miles southwest of Charlottesville. The cause of the crash and whether anyone was injured was not immediately known.

Here in Charlottesville, the protest, billed as a “Unite the Right” rally, was the culmination of a year and a half of debate in Charlottesville over the fate of the Lee statue. A movement to remove it began when an African-American high school student here started a petition. The City Council voted 3 to 2 in April to sell it, but a judge issued an injunction temporarily stopping the move.

The city had been bracing for a sea of alt-right demonstrators, and on Friday night, hundreds of them, carrying lit torches, marched on the picturesque grounds of the University of Virginia, founded in 1819 by Thomas Jefferson. The group included prominent white nationalist figures like Richard Spencer and David Duke, a former imperial wizard of the Ku Klux Klan.

“We’re going to fulfill the promises of Donald Trump” to “take our country back,” Mr. Duke told reporters Saturday. Many of the white nationalist protesters carried campaign signs for Mr. Trump.

Mr. Duke strongly criticized Mr. Trump later in the day after the president condemned the violence.

University officials said one person was arrested and charged Friday night with assault and disorderly conduct, and several others were injured. Among those hurt was a university police officer injured while making the arrest, the school said in a statement.

Teresa A. Sullivan, the president of the university, strongly condemned the Friday demonstration in a statement, calling it “disturbing and unacceptable.”

Still, officials allowed the Saturday protest to go on — until the injuries began piling up.

The city of Charlottesville declared a state of emergency around 11 a.m., citing an “imminent threat of civil disturbance, unrest, potential injury to persons, and destruction of public and personal property.”

Governor McAuliffe followed with his own declaration an hour later.

“It is now clear that public safety cannot be safeguarded without additional powers, and that the mostly-out-of-state protesters have come to Virginia to endanger our citizens and property,” he said in a statement. “I am disgusted by the hatred, bigotry and violence these protesters have brought to our state over the past 24 hours.”

The Republican candidate for governor in Virginia, Ed Gillespie, issued his own statement denouncing the protests as “vile hate” that has “no place in our Commonwealth.”

Mr. Ryan agreed. “The views fueling the spectacle in Charlottesville are repugnant,” he said on Twitter. “Let it only serve to unite Americans against this kind of vile bigotry.”

Trump declares victory.    "More of my people showed up than Democrats," he said.  

"Don't spare their heads," the president told a small group of RW marchers.    

"Remember," the Trumpster reminded everyone, "Virginia is an 'open carry' state.  Get to work."

Lord Foul wrote:now quill knows how I feel about the sunni/shia spat and the arab/israeli spat....

Thorin wrote:His point is born from selfishness, one he has gained off the back of a small amount of innovative people. Who if they were as he is, he would never have received his education or be in the position he is in today.

Lord Foul wrote:now quill knows how I feel about the sunni/shia spat and the arab/israeli spat....

Original Quill wrote:

Thorin wrote:His point is born from selfishness, one he has gained off the back of a small amount of innovative people. Who if they were as he is, he would never have received his education or be in the position he is in today.

Every nation that ever sought independence had its political reasons.  When continental Europe fell to the German state, was Britain not steadfast in its insistence upon independence from that Europe?  Are you saying that Britain was selfish in not asking to join in the Axis state of Europe?

Here the parallels to that situation are remarkable.  The United States has been overtaken by a white supremacist, and a wave of modern day Nazis.  You say that we, the sane people of California, are selfish in not acquiescing to that wave?

Hmmm...and British resistance to the Germans was selfish too, eh?

Original Quill wrote:

Thorin wrote:His point is born from selfishness, one he has gained off the back of a small amount of innovative people. Who if they were as he is, he would never have received his education or be in the position he is in today.

Every nation that ever sought independence had its political reasons.  When continental Europe fell to the German state, was Britain not steadfast in its insistence upon independence from that Europe?  Are you saying that Britain was selfish in not asking to join in the Axis state of Europe?

Here the parallels to that situation are remarkable.  The United States has been overtaken by a white supremacist, and a wave of modern day Nazis.  You say that we, the sane people of California, are selfish in not acquiescing to that wave?

Hmmm...and British resistance to the Germans was selfish too, eh?

Raggamuffin wrote:

Original Quill wrote:

Every nation that ever sought independence had its political reasons.  When continental Europe fell to the German state, was Britain not steadfast in its insistence upon independence from that Europe?  Are you saying that Britain was selfish in not asking to join in the Axis state of Europe?

Here the parallels to that situation are remarkable.  The United States has been overtaken by a white supremacist, and a wave of modern day Nazis.  You say that we, the sane people of California, are selfish in not acquiescing to that wave?

Hmmm...and British resistance to the Germans was selfish too, eh?

It's not quite the same thing Quill because Britain was never part of the German state. It was already independent.

Thorin wrote:

Original Quill wrote:

Every nation that ever sought independence had its political reasons.  When continental Europe fell to the German state, was Britain not steadfast in its insistence upon independence from that Europe?  Are you saying that Britain was selfish in not asking to join in the Axis state of Europe?

Here the parallels to that situation are remarkable.  The United States has been overtaken by a white supremacist, and a wave of modern day Nazis.  You say that we, the sane people of California, are selfish in not acquiescing to that wave?

Hmmm...and British resistance to the Germans was selfish too, eh?

Eh?

It was defending itself from Nazi aggression, not Independence from Europe. Britain went to war due to its support off defending the self determination of the Polish people. So what you are saying is emphatically rubbish. It had troops in France, Norway, Belgium, Greece etc defending these countries. That is hardly being independent of Europe is it Quill? Where also it was allied with many of the European nations freeing them from occupation by Nazi Germany. To then occupy Germany itself for years after. Hence why there was many European governments in exile within the Uk during the war.

So there is no parallel, just some fuckwittery i would normally expect from Tommy, with such a stupid answer. It was Churchill, who was one of the forerunners of a European Union

The US has not been taken over by white supremacists. Talk about trying to again normalize the use of other US citizens as becoming cannon fodder.

Neville Chamberlain wrote:My good friends, this is the second time there has come back from Germany to Downing Street peace with honour. I believe it is peace for our time. We thank you from the bottom of our hearts. Now I recommend you go home, and sleep quietly in your beds.

Raggamuffin wrote:

Original Quill wrote:

Every nation that ever sought independence had its political reasons.  When continental Europe fell to the German state, was Britain not steadfast in its insistence upon independence from that Europe?  Are you saying that Britain was selfish in not asking to join in the Axis state of Europe?

Here the parallels to that situation are remarkable.  The United States has been overtaken by a white supremacist, and a wave of modern day Nazis.  You say that we, the sane people of California, are selfish in not acquiescing to that wave?

Hmmm...and British resistance to the Germans was selfish too, eh?

It's not quite the same thing Quill because Britain was never part of the German state. It was already independent.

Original Quill wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:

It's not quite the same thing Quill because Britain was never part of the German state. It was already independent.

Nor was California ever a part of the Republican/Trump state.

Like didge, you can't see the forest from the trees.  The Republicans and the Trumpsters have moved away from normalcy.  California has always been here.  But the US has sailed.

Original Quill wrote:

Thorin wrote:


Eh?

It was defending itself from Nazi aggression, not Independence from Europe. Britain went to war due to its support off defending the self determination of the Polish people. So what you are saying is emphatically rubbish. It had troops in France, Norway, Belgium, Greece etc defending these countries. That is hardly being independent of Europe is it Quill? Where also it was allied with many of the European nations freeing them from occupation by Nazi Germany. To then occupy Germany itself for years after. Hence why there was many European governments in exile within the Uk during the war.

So there is no parallel, just some fuckwittery i would normally expect from Tommy, with such a stupid answer. It was Churchill, who was one of the forerunners of a European Union

The US has not been taken over by white supremacists. Talk about trying to again normalize the use of other US citizens as becoming cannon fodder.

You can't see the forest for the trees, didge.  Did Britain move away from it's core values when it failed to go along with the rest of Axis Europe?  No, a radical movement had overtaken Europe, and Britain simply failed to go along.  

Your view is very much like that taken by Neville Champerlain prior to the Axis takeover in Europe.  How long have these words echoed in our ears:

Neville Chamberlain wrote:My good friends, this is the second time there has come back from Germany to Downing Street peace with honour. I believe it is peace for our time. We thank you from the bottom of our hearts. Now I recommend you go home, and sleep quietly in your beds.

Yet, here again you are recommending that we sit on our hands and do nothing...or, occasionally wring them, and chant: Oh my, oh my, oh my...  This is what it looks like mate, it's here again!

Raggamuffin wrote:

Original Quill wrote:

Nor was California ever a part of the Republican/Trump state.

Like didge, you can't see the forest from the trees.  The Republicans and the Trumpsters have moved away from normalcy.  California has always been here.  But the US has sailed.

It's part of the USA though. Britain was never part of the German Empire.

Original Quill wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:

It's part of the USA though. Britain was never part of the German Empire.

Nor was California ever a part of the Republican-Trump empire.  

Do you deny that Britain was ever a part of any European enterprise?  No, you're saying that it was not a part of the German Empire.  Germany had taken and removed Europe, but not Britain.  Germany left with the rest of the land mass (Europe), and Britain had naught to do but Dunkirk and the Battle of Britain.

This is precisely the situation California is in (save that we in no way want any violence).  We never bought into this white supremacist, or his Nazi Trumpsters.  He has taken the rest of the land mass away from California and gone elsewhere.  Other states appear content with that.  The peaceful thing to do is for California to simply wave good-bye.

Original Quill wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:

It's part of the USA though. Britain was never part of the German Empire.

Nor was California ever a part of the Republican-Trump empire.  

Do you deny that Britain was ever a part of any European enterprise?  No, you're saying that it was not a part of the German Empire.  Germany had taken and removed Europe, but not Britain.  Germany left with the rest of the land mass (Europe), and Britain had naught to do but Dunkirk and the Battle of Britain.

This is precisely the situation California is in (save that we in no way want any violence).  We never bought into this white supremacist, or his Nazi Trumpsters.  He has taken the rest of the land mass away from California and gone elsewhere.  Other states appear content with that.  The peaceful thing to do is for California to simply wave good-bye.

Thorin wrote:

Original Quill wrote:

You can't see the forest for the trees, didge.  Did Britain move away from it's core values when it failed to go along with the rest of Axis Europe?  No, a radical movement had overtaken Europe, and Britain simply failed to go along.  

Your view is very much like that taken by Neville Champerlain prior to the Axis takeover in Europe.  How long have these words echoed in our ears:



Yet, here again you are recommending that we sit on our hands and do nothing...or, occasionally wring them, and chant: Oh my, oh my, oh my...  This is what it looks like mate, it's here again!

Again more gibberish.

So answer me why Britain declared war on Germany Quill?

Answer me why it had troops in Norway?

In Greece?

Thorin wrote:Your argument it seems now is off a snowflake politician

Thorin wrote:Britain never moved away from its core failures and there is a massive reason why.

Thorin wrote:It controlled a mass part of the world and those it did not, it looked to defend.

Even when France fell to the Germans, It looked to invade France to free the French people.

This is why I dispair when you post on history, as its normally complete babble.

Raggamuffin wrote:

Original Quill wrote:

Nor was California ever a part of the Republican-Trump empire.  

Do you deny that Britain was ever a part of any European enterprise?  No, you're saying that it was not a part of the German Empire.  Germany had taken and removed Europe, but not Britain.  Germany left with the rest of the land mass (Europe), and Britain had naught to do but Dunkirk and the Battle of Britain.

This is precisely the situation California is in (save that we in no way want any violence).  We never bought into this white supremacist, or his Nazi Trumpsters.  He has taken the rest of the land mass away from California and gone elsewhere.  Other states appear content with that.  The peaceful thing to do is for California to simply wave good-bye.

Trump is the President of the USA, of which California is a part. It's nothing like the situation that Britain was in Quill. It's so different that I can't believe you're even trying to argue your case.

Original Quill wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:

Trump is the President of the USA, of which California is a part. It's nothing like the situation that Britain was in Quill. It's so different that I can't believe you're even trying to argue your case.

You are deliberately ignoring the point.  The USA is no more; Trump and the Republicans have dismantled it.  

You are just being one of the dense minions who, safely tucked into your bed, don't see the revelation coming.  Guns, violence, rhetoric, killing, killing, killing...all behind us.  Now, the Lucifer has stepped forward and revealed himself, unafraid anymore to go public.

But safe and warm in your French duvet, you remain calm thinking it will always be this way.

Fortunately for me, I'm not a little guy, citizen of a little nation that the Hitlers can kick around.  We can take California and the Pacific States with us, and we will end up with a formidable presence, the equal match of the evil to the east.  Over time, our love for humanity, and their hatred for humanity, will widen the distance and wealth between us.  We will be successful while they will fail.

Now, you be secure in your warm bed, Raggs.  Lol...sleep, sleep, sleep.  

Raggamuffin wrote:I presume you mean 1939, not 1039 Quill. Laughing

Original Quill wrote:
It was Churchill.  He was a fanatic about Hitler.  But even he could not hold back the Nazi onslaught had not the US come in to help Britain.

Who knows what would have happened to Britain had it not gone to war.  Orwell's 1984 hypothesized something like that.  But would haves and should haves are only good as movie plots.

Thorin wrote:He did just fine without the US and the reality is it was Russian blood that held back the Nazi onslaught. The reality is they would not have survived without the arctic convoys, thus aid/weapons/munitions/tanks/planes etc. Hence all the allies needed each other

That's a meaningless waste of words.  What argument?  What politician?  WTF does snowflake mean?

Thorin wrote:That the bases for your argument is based off the views of a Politician, one who was cast aside for being a snowflake. As he had bowed down to bullshit from Hitler with the Munich Agreement. Though credit where credit is due. Chamberlain did greatly increase the RAF budget which led to Britain being better prepared to fight an aerial war

"Core failures?"  Are you admitting that Hitler was right?  By alleging that Britain had "core failures", are you becoming an apologist for Hitler?

Thorin wrote:That was a typo, I meant values and spell check lol

It's not about me, didge.  You always drift off course like this.  

Before you lost the plot, we were discussing a comparison, California to Britain in 1039.  Fact: Hitler was a Nazi and extremist.  Fact: Hitler took over continental Europe.  Fact: Hitler left Britain all alone on the western edge of his new domain.

Thorin wrote:1039? California never existed Quill
Hitler never left Britain all alone as he was fighting them on multiple fronts. In North Africa and on its home turf by bombing them. So yet again you invoke utter bullshit

Now, Fact: Trump is a Nazi and his Trumpsters are extreme white supremacists.  Fact: Trump and his Trumpsters have overtaken most of the land mass of the US.  Fact: Trump and his Trumpsters have left California alone on the western edge of his new domain.

Thorin wrote:Well that is news to me, and as much as I think trump is a dick, he does not have any equivalent Nazi policies

Now, this is where you lost the plot.  Pay attention and don't follow the lazy eye.  Hitler was extreme and Britain was normal; Trump and the Republicans are extreme and California is normal.  Hitler left Britain, not the reverse; Trump and the Republicans left California, not the reverse.  Ergo: California has done nothing except stand still.  Trump and his Republicans have left us for his new RW feeding grounds.  We are not gone; he is.

Thorin wrote:I dont or need to pay attention to someone as poor on history as you are. So what you are saying is that those in power are then making all other American culpable in the US. You are trying to surgically extract yourself from the rest of the US, when California needs water from other US states. The reality is there is simple no connection and what is even worse is you make complicit all other US states and 2 thirds of the people who did not vote for Trump, by saying fuck you to them.

Before I leave, let me comment on the personal insults: No one really cares about what you have to say, didge.  That's the lovely thing about these sites...you can only foment hatred, something you do a lot.

Thorin wrote:Contradiction alert, as you clearly do by replying

Here, you're not an American.  You're not a Californian.  You know nothing...can do nothing...and no one cares what you think.  You are simply an insulter, and people generally dislike you for that.

Thorin wrote:Hang on I thought you were Californian? Are you now saying you are American? So why are you ditching the rest of your American citizens?

You've made a complete mess of your own argument.  (I could do ten times better.)  You've failed to see the forest for the trees, and then when you saw it too late, you made a complete mess of your response.

But, that is because your real subliminal point was not to reason, but to insult.  Your mind strays when the adrenaline overflows.  You always lose because of that personality flaw.  You stray, lose the point, and generally leave no message save your hatred.  Try toning down your own hatred, and you'll stay on message more frequently.

Raggamuffin wrote:I presume you mean 1939, not 1039 Quill.

Raggamuffin wrote:The difference is that you, and perhaps a lot of people in California, want to break with the USA because you don't like the President. Britain didn't have to break with  Germany because it was never part of it. The USA also went to war with Germany, so do you consider that the USA was also trying to leave Germany?

What happens at the next election if a Democrat gets in? Will you still want to leave?

Original Quill wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:The difference is that you, and perhaps a lot of people in California, want to break with the USA because you don't like the President. Britain didn't have to break with  Germany because it was never part of it. The USA also went to war with Germany, so do you consider that the USA was also trying to leave Germany?

What happens at the next election if a Democrat gets in? Will you still want to leave?

The President is just the Lucifer, Raggs.  The discord goes back to 1869, the end of the Civil War.  Why do you think I mentioned the violence and the guns and the racism and the trickery.  Why do you think I hate the south...the south is a lot older than Trump.  

You've not been watching, Raggs.  You've missed the news.  There is extreme, and permanent division in this country.  There always has been.  And more importantly, there always will be...until the surgery is performed.

Original Quill wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:The difference is that you, and perhaps a lot of people in California, want to break with the USA because you don't like the President. Britain didn't have to break with  Germany because it was never part of it. The USA also went to war with Germany, so do you consider that the USA was also trying to leave Germany?

What happens at the next election if a Democrat gets in? Will you still want to leave?

The President is just the Lucifer, Raggs.  The discord goes back to 1869, the end of the Civil War.  Why do you think I mentioned the violence and the guns and the racism and the trickery.  Why do you think I hate the south...the south is a lot older than Trump.  

You've not been watching, Raggs.  You've missed the news.  There is extreme, and permanent division in this country.  There always has been.  And more importantly, there always will be...until the surgery is performed.

Raggamuffin wrote:

Original Quill wrote:

The President is just the Lucifer, Raggs.  The discord goes back to 1869, the end of the Civil War.  Why do you think I mentioned the violence and the guns and the racism and the trickery.  Why do you think I hate the south...the south is a lot older than Trump.  

You've not been watching, Raggs.  You've missed the news.  There is extreme, and permanent division in this country.  There always has been.  And more importantly, there always will be...until the surgery is performed.

So if a Democrat gets in next time, you'll still be lobbying to leave the USA?

Raggamuffin wrote:The south wanted to leave, but the north wouldn't let them - perhaps they should have.

Thorin wrote:

Original Quill wrote:

The President is just the Lucifer, Raggs.  The discord goes back to 1869, the end of the Civil War.  Why do you think I mentioned the violence and the guns and the racism and the trickery.  Why do you think I hate the south...the south is a lot older than Trump.  

You've not been watching, Raggs.  You've missed the news.  There is extreme, and permanent division in this country.  There always has been.  And more importantly, there always will be...until the surgery is performed.

Lucifer was the angel of light in mythology

Seriously I would back out now if you want to invoke religious-idiocy here.

Original Quill wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:

So if a Democrat gets in next time, you'll still be lobbying to leave the USA?

Absolutely, if a Democrat got in I would still want to terminate all ties of California with the USA.  Didn't we discuss it, heavily, when Dr. Obama was president?  

The USA will always have that cancer of racism, violence and ignorance.  It's just too big and unwieldy, and if you've ever noticed a drain...that stuff collects.  We just have to leave it behind.  How fortuitous that the Trump Republicans have come along and created the separation for us.  It's like the philosophy of Judo: let the force of your opponent be his undoing.

Raggamuffin wrote:The south wanted to leave, but the north wouldn't let them - perhaps they should have.

The difference now is, we have proved it won't work.

Original Quill wrote:

Thorin wrote:


Lucifer was the angel of light in mythology

Seriously I would back out now if you want to invoke religious-idiocy here.

It's just a metaphor, didge.  (Your lazy eye is causing you to drift already...I'll point it out to you sooner if you like.)

Thorin wrote:Claiming to stand against intolerance around racism and xenophobia by promoting separation based off castigating the rest of Americans as inferior to be part of this new nation. As they have been all judged by Quill.

I fail to see how you tackle racism, by being actually racist Quill through segregation

It may not be black and white in this instance, but its still segregation based on beliefs.

Original Quill wrote:

Thorin wrote:Claiming to stand against intolerance around racism and xenophobia by promoting separation based off castigating the rest of Americans as inferior to be part of this new nation. As they have been all judged by Quill.

I fail to see how you tackle racism, by being actually racist Quill through segregation

It may not be black and white in this instance, but its still segregation based on beliefs.

You can't tackle racism and bigotry, didge.  Racism is a consciousness.  You must simply let racists die...and die out.

Yet, if they persist and pass it on, as they seem to have done successfully with young Mr. Fields, you know that you have a festering infection.  Sometimes, in that case, you must simply cut it off.

Thorin wrote:Arguing that the rest of Americans are basically racist to Californians, is based on nothing more than an intolerance of beliefs.

Thorin wrote:Actually you tackle racism with reason and show that biologically races do not exist within humans. That we are all one human race. The fact that we still stupidly use social constructs like races, only allows racism to continue to exist. If we viewed each other as human beings and not segregated each other by something that is made up, a social constrict. Then you would go a long way to ending racism. The more you maintain a mythical racial separation of people. The more you ensure racism will continue to exist. If you take away that root cause for people to argue off from. The social construct of races. How then can racism exist, if it is taught we are all one biological race?

Original Quill wrote:

Thorin wrote:Arguing that the rest of Americans are basically racist to Californians, is based on nothing more than an intolerance of beliefs.

I see you misunderstand the argument.  The rest of Americans are simply left to the fortunes of the Trump Republicans.  They can do what they wish.  

Are we our brother's keeper?  This presumes our brother wants to be kept.  They are free Americans, as are we.  We are hardly dictating to them what life they should choose.

That said, the rest of Americans are free to join us if they wish...they simply have to get here.  Just leave the guns and racism at the door.

Original Quill wrote:

Thorin wrote:Actually you tackle racism with reason and show that biologically races do not exist within humans. That we are all one human race. The fact that we still stupidly use social constructs like races, only allows racism to continue to exist. If we viewed each other as human beings and not segregated each other by something that is made up, a social constrict. Then you would go a long way to ending racism. The more you maintain a mythical racial separation of people. The more you ensure racism will continue to exist. If you take away that root cause for people to argue off from. The social construct of races. How then can racism exist, if it is taught we are all one biological race?

I said it was a consciousness, I didn't say it was real.  As long as the consciousness of racism predominates, there's nothing that those free of racism can do about it.  It is a creed issue, and under the First Amendment it's a free country to believe what they want.

But we can turn our backs on it.  That's what I would advocate.

Thorin wrote:Which is the same argument Trump uses against Muslims

Deny them to be a part of the US nation and allow them to be left to their own devices.

You see how comparable you actually are to him?

The only differences is what beliefs you allow within your society. A totalitarian society, one where you dictate who can come in.

So you and trump are like bouncers at a club. You reject people on who you do not like.

Its nothing short of a form of racism, this being based on beliefs

Original Quill wrote:

Thorin wrote:Which is the same argument Trump uses against Muslims

Deny them to be a part of the US nation and allow them to be left to their own devices.

You see how comparable you actually are to him?

The only differences is what beliefs you allow within your society. A totalitarian society, one where you dictate who can come in.

So you and trump are like bouncers at a club. You reject people on who you do not like.

Its nothing short of a form of racism, this being based on beliefs

Exactly the reverse.  Trump wants to keep Muslims out; Californians would welcome lawful, non-racist and non-violent Americans who come to our doorstep.

Do you wish to sanction racism?  Do you think that hating a brother because of skin color is a valid political perspective?  Personally, I think it is not.

Thorin wrote:Its exactly the same thing, as you are denying people entry based on beliefs

That is what Trump is arguing that Muslims are violent from certain countries and that they pose a risk.

You are arguing the same

Original Quill wrote:

Thorin wrote:Its exactly the same thing, as you are denying people entry based on beliefs

That is what Trump is arguing that Muslims are violent from certain countries and that they pose a risk.

You are arguing the same

Unfortunately, no...Trump is grasping at religion.  He makes the link that those of the Muslim are ipso facto violent.  Because of this, he wants to exclude them.  It is a false assumption and a wrongful act.

I point to the fundamentally repugnant theory of racism and, making the link that it is flawed and offensive, I wish to exclude them.  It is a valid act.

Both politics and law are about choices.  We all want equality, but we chose exclusivity when selecting our friends or whom to marry.  We pronounce thing as good and bad all the time: raping and robbing are bad, but charity and giving gifts are good.

If a nation says freedom of religion or freedom of expression are good, so it shall be.  And if a nation says racism will not be tolerated, so it shall be.  It's not just another viewpoint.  Value judgments are made.

Thorin wrote:By excluding those who do not share your beliefs, you just maintain those prejudice views continue to exist outside your Hadrian/Quill/Trump wall.

Slavery never ended that way.

Original Quill wrote:

Thorin wrote:By excluding those who do not share your beliefs, you just maintain those prejudice views continue to exist outside your Hadrian/Quill/Trump wall.

Slavery never ended that way.

No, but it was perpetuated by tolerating it in one's presence.  All that is necessary for evil to succeed, is for good men to do nothing.  

Building a wall, and saying thou shall not pass, can be a good thing when you are addressing evil.  As I said above, racism is evil.  Value judgments are not bad, but they can be misinformed.  Trump assumes that all Muslims are violent, based upon misinformation.  Californians assume that racism is wrong, and it's quite true.

Thorin wrote:But you are being evil yourself Quill

As you have set a standard on who can come to live in your Utopia and that many will be denied based on beliefs.

So you are very much like Trump and want to exclude people.

So tell me, if someone is prejudiced towards homosexuals, would you include them in your Utopia?

Original Quill wrote:

Thorin wrote:But you are being evil yourself Quill

As you have set a standard on who can come to live in your Utopia and that many will be denied based on beliefs.

So you are very much like Trump and want to exclude people.

So tell me, if someone is prejudiced towards homosexuals, would you include them in your Utopia?

More appropriately, let's choose an example that does actual harm, not just an innocent status like homosexuality.  There is a real moral (should I say immoral?) equivalency between, say, paedophilia, rape...and racism.  All three are acts that do harm to people.  Paedophilia and rape are criminal acts overtly, and crimes with a racial purpose are prosecuted as 'hate crimes'.

Thorin wrote:So you cannot even answer a simple question where already you have stated you would decide who you would let into your Totalitarian Dictatorship. I have not suggesting anything, but am asking you points about totalitarian state you wish to form.

Original Quill wrote:

Thorin wrote:So you cannot even answer a simple question where already you have stated you would decide who you would let into your Totalitarian Dictatorship. I have not suggesting anything, but am asking you points about totalitarian state you wish to form.

Red herring.  

When you seriously want to discuss this issue, instead of making up rhetorical adjectives and false nonsense, call me.

In the meantime, don't waste my time.

Original Quill wrote:   If you want a response, put something challenging up.  You are sub-rational in your lazy-eye ramblings...it's not worth my time.

Original Quill wrote:Chicken?  You'll have to do better than that.

Didge, I notice you putting out a bevy of red stripes.  The other day it was Wolf.  Before that, Raggs.  Man, you are like a man with a pocket full of Sherwin-Williams coupons.

Did you know, they don't count as a detraction on the reputation meter.  As a gesture, you're as empty as your arguments.